Mini 425 Generic Western Mafia- Game over!

[Guardian]

Peter, I was asking John, I wanted to see his reaction, and his defense. I didn't want the focus deflected from him onto my 'propoganda'. I think you're scum, so I say it. Sorry.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Everyone,

My son has given me his strep throat infection, so I'm a bit incapacitated. I'll try to get in here and make a real post asap, but for now all I want to do is sleep

Sorry guys,

Vel/Rich

[John]

No, imnot onna take it. ill post within 24 hours. RL is killing me.

[gorckat]

I was outta town from my last post till last night. I'm gonna reread after dinner and see if there isn't a vote I can slap on someone before John's post.

[Thesp]

Scum-tells don't exist. Wiki testifies to this. Wiki tells you that tells should be taken as a guideline at best. And no one has updated mafia-tells until 2004. In my view, scum tells are so unreliable at catching a scum you might as well not use it. It's like a car that is almst guaranteed to break down on every journey it makes.

Then the best the town can do is to cooperate with each other until there comes a point the scums has to do something anti-town because it conflicts their interests too much. This is where rules of thumb like "LynchAllLiars" come from.

The premise of what you have written is absurd. Suppose I have seen, as I've played games through the years, that when someone says "rutabaga", then approximately 60% of the time, that player is scum. It's certainly not foolproof, but if this is my experience, it behooves me greatly to suspect anyone that says "rutabaga" that much more. (This is the principle of a "scum tell".) In my experience, I have seen things which are far more likely to be done by scum than by town, and I've seen some things which are far more likely to be done by town than scum. I draw on that experience to play, and I like to think I'm a better-than-average player for it. (Whether I actually am or not is another subject entirely.) You want to dismiss this useful tool all together.

Your premise of scum hunting is fundamentally flawed for a number of reasons. If the best thing the town can do is cooperate, why should anyone vote for anyone? Why in the world would scum even try to act anti-town during the day? What in the world would it benefit them, since the town is already neutered in its ability to find scum (since scum tells are so unreliable we're random-lynching

at best

)?

This is also to discount the enormous discussion on what actually is anti-town and what is not. I don't think you've even reached the place where you can discuss that. You have miserably failed in your endeavor here, and I suggest you seriously rethink how mafia is actually played. You'll find that tells do exist, even if they're not foolproof.

[mustafa15]

Scum-tells don't exist. Wiki testifies to this. Wiki tells you that tells should be taken as a guideline at best. And no one has updated mafia-tells until 2004. In my view, scum tells are so unreliable at catching a scum you might as well not use it. It's like a car that is almst guaranteed to break down on every journey it makes.

I agree with Thesp that this is total bs. If every mafia player was perfect, then this would be true, but people screw up plenty. Certainly, there is no such thing as a guaranteed scumtell, but there are certainly scumtells.

[gorckat]

vote: paradoxombie

His reasons for voting Guardian were piggy-backed on other's reasons. He said they all blended together.

When pushed, the only one he put forth specifically was that being vocal is a scum tell (which conveniently clears himself since he has not been notably vocal), but says that reason is arguable.

He says his reasoning is pretty airtight (but the one point he elaborates on is arguable...) but his mind could be changed...

He also set up the "Whoops- he wasn't scum" Day 2 by saying he's "...not very certain you're scum..."

Too wishy-washy and fence-sitty of a vote for me.

His vote did move to Avinyl briefly, but I think that was when several people were starting to look towards Avi when he wasn't posting.

[Guardian]

In dramatic Thesp style:
Paradoxombie and Peter are scum. Gorckat and Occult are probably not. Thesp might be a good candidate for third scum. Mustafa might also. Right now I'm really comfortable with either a Peter or Paradox lynch, though.

I am not posting my thoughts on John 'til he responds.

[Raffles]

Whole basis of scum-tells are based around people making certain types of mistakes. I've seen plenty of people making scum-tells when they are town. And as much as you can blame this on individual, if the whole premisis of lynching someone is based on using scum-tells, then this is not a very efficient strategy, riddled with mislynches. Then the better strategy would be to make the conditions unfavourable to scums, by townies acting to conflict the scum's interest, until they fall off like a piece of scab.

[Guardian]

I am going on vacation starting tomorrow; I PM'd Sefer that I need a replacement... Sorry I've got to go guys, it was fun playing with you.

[Guardian]

ebwop: For my replacement's benefit, I would like to unequivocally say that I am pro-town, by the way.

[Sefer]

Ninth official vote count:

Thesp(2): John, Raffles
Peter Venkman(2): Guardian, Avinyl
Guardian (2): Vryklan, Paradoxombie
John (2): Thesp, Peter Venkman
paradoxombie (1): gorckat
Avinyl (1): mustafa15

Not voting: Occult, Vel-Rahn Koon

12 alive, 7 to lynch.

I've noticed posting has slowed down. I've been trying to hold off until I found a replacement, but I'm going to place a

Deadline

for nine days from now. I'll do my best to have someone replace in by that time, and I my consider modkilling one or both if I haven't found replacements.

[Thesp]

Whole basis of scum-tells are based around people making certain types of mistakes.

This is the part of your argument that is wrong. Since it appears the rest of your argument is based upon his premise, I've essentially ignored the rest of your argument as inconsequential.

Scum-tells are based upon scum doing things more often than townies doing things.

They're not even necessarily

mistakes

, per se, it's simply an indication that the person who uses them are more likely to be scum. Suppose it was demonstrated that red-heads are 10 times more likely to have cancer, and you know this fact. Then, suppose you're put in a room and asked to identify the one person in the room who has cancer.

Ceteris paribus

, you should choose the redhead. It's much the same with scum-hunting - you look for things which you've seen scum as actually more likely to exhibit, and try to get them lynched, because they're actually more likely to be scum.

I'm really having a hard time seeing how and why you're arguing against what is at its heart a scientific principle.

[Thesp]

Also, while I'm happiest to see John swing, I will switch my vote to prevent a lynch of either myself or Guardian.

[Guardian]

packing furiously - since I wasn't able to wait until John responded, I'll say that while I was trying to bait him and wanted to wait and see his reactions, I don't particularly think he is scum. He might be though. I reserve judgment.

[gorckat]

Has John posted on any other weekend? I know some people only have access from work...he's notaby late on a defense/rebuttal he promised.

pokes a Stick of Suspicion in John's hidey-hole

[Sefer]

pickemgenius replaces Guardian, effective immediately. I've chosen to replace Guardian instead of Vryklan because I feel it will disrupt discussion less (since Guardian has been active while Vryklan has not been part of discussion for some time).

[pickemgenius]

reading 18 pages is so damn boring.
atleast about 3 solid hours of reading and its 4:35 a.m. (central)

I am in no hurry, like Guardian was.

Oh yea, I think I need a mandatory, Yo, hey everybody. So there.

[Thesp]

Mod: Deadline extension request, please.

Thanks!

[Sefer]

If the deadline gets close and either I feel that town have increased their discussion enough to warrent an extension or I've gotten a replacement that will need more time in order to catch up then I will extend the deadline, but I don't see the need for an extension when it's still over a week away. If anyone sees a particular need for an extension at this point, feel free to post reasons here or PM me privately.

[Occult]

I'll wait for XXX's post before I say anything about the deadline.

John?, John?, John?, John?, Not Here?

Bueller? Bueller....

[Sefer]

CrashTextDummie replaces Vryklan, effective immediately. That brings us back up to full again!

I'll be prodding Avinyl since he hasn't posted in over a week. Let me know if you feel anyone else needs prodding (I'm inclined to wait til after the weekend is over before determining if John needs a prod).

[CrashTextDummie]

Hello, I'm here to replace.

I'll do a readthrough tonight and will be back with initial impressions later.

[CrashTextDummie]

I want to lynch mustafa15 or Vel-Rahn Koon, preferably the former. A John lynch would be acceptable at deadline. Paradoxombie also has a better than average chance of being scum.

These are just my initial thoughts after a first readthrough. I'll have something more substantial after a reread.

unvote, vote: mustafa15

A couple of questions:

Vel-Rahn Koon - how many scum are in this game?
Thesp - anything you'd like me to adress?

[pickemgenius]

Paradox, some of the things you've said have rubbed me the wrong way.

I'm starting to go totally WIFOM. My reasons for voting Guardian are no different from any of yours

.

You are totally going WIFOM, nuff said.

You've been extremely vocal, which is a pretty scumy tell for a fairly new player, imo.

IMO discussion=good.
If a new player wants to learn by being vocal, then how is it scummy?

Im more inclined to vote pro-town and learn what I can from your death than vote for someone who barely posts and learn nothing whether they are scum or not

I'm more inclined to vote pro-scum, and win.

I'm not gonna learn much more today without going WIFOM. So I've settled on you

Don't ever settle in this game. You've already said you're going totally WIFOM.

ebwop: thanks John and I agree, zombie please explain in

your

own words

your

reasons for your vote on me. I'm sure you have a new perspective on things.

Im not gonna point out individual situations, since they've all blended after 12 pages, so here's a more general explanation.

Yet, you asked Thesp on his Guardian is flamingly town quote.

If you're whole game plan is your vote on me, and you've basically said so, that's just weird.

Do you have anything new to contribute, on me, or anyone in the game?

no, nothing sigificant.

Unvote

Vote: Paradoxombie