NY 169: The EPIC XD Mafia Game of Greatness (Game Over)

[Empire]

Day 2, Votecount 37

Desperado (6)

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MC Maraca, Casso the King of Seals, Sakura Hana, Generic, Cephrir, Ser Arthur Dayne

Casso the King of Seals (6)

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goodmorning, BROseidon, zMuffinMan, Desperado, Bert, DOMO

Bert (2)

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KoreanBBQ, MafiaSSK

Cephrir (2)

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F-16_Fighting_Falcon, Norlkaz

Ser Arthur Dayne (1)

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pieguyn

Not Voting (1)

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geists

With 18 alive, it takes 10 to lynch! Deadline is on January 11th at 10:10 AM EST (expired on 2014-01-11 11:10:12)

Mod Notes

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KoreanBBQ is V/LA until Friday.

[BROseidon]

@mod V/LA through Saturday

[geists]

Nothing ffery has done has given you any sort of townread?

not really no

Did you always read the other head when we've played?

dunno, but i'm not so much reading nat over you as i am finding something nat did really scummy and then you not doing anything obviously town to counterbalance it

The reason I asked was because if you're not seeing anything obviously town in my game it's quite possibly because you never have. But, I really thought that it was you townreading me on your own in the Space game. Not you reading Empire. And Not Mollie reading me. So, I can't really get wholeheartedly behind the premise.

[geists]

Can you link those scumgames where Sakura gave up and self-voted? I think I might be able to do a compare and contrast with her towngames to see if there are underlying motivations that can be spotted.

Here are a few games, scum and town.

As town: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 9#p5222069 This was a self-hammer

As scum not faking it (I think) - http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 9#p5154079 This was L-1

This game is a twofer: As scum faking it (I think) http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 7#p5088017. As scum in the same game self-hammering: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p5103138

As town: this one seemed mostly frustration. http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p5161695 and this one looked like pure fatalism. http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 6#p5215726


As town, to avoid a no lynch at deadline: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 1#p5474281

As scum, self-hammer: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 7#p5505567

As town, over a supposed scumslip: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 1#p5266921

So, I've had a chance to look through all this and I am actually surprised you are still considering that Sakura could be scum. Her intent and motivation has always looked different as both affiliations.

I found the first self-hammer as town to be out a rather misguided sense that town will look into her reads when they see her flip.

The second town one was done hoping to get Wisdom to shut up with the self hammer being out of sheer frustration and anger at the town. That is what feels most similar to here.

The third town game, the deadline self-hammer was accompanied by a reads list. This was probably the most productive self-vote since she gave her thoughts and hammered in a calculated way to avoid a no lynch.

The last town game showed a sense of giving up and wanting out of the game.

Comparing with her scum games:

The first one is a bet meant to create scum theater with her scumbuddy Generic possibly. It carried a threatening tone.

The second one was an implicit threat to you saying that you should be lynched the next day upon her townflip, possibly meant to create doubt.

Both scum self-hammers seemed to be because she didn't think she would survive.

Overall, I am seeing that Sakura self-votes as town when she gets frustrated with everyone and generally doesn't try to wiggle her way out of trouble. As scum on the other hand, her self-votes (minus the self hammers) are more manipulative meant to subtly threaten, cast doubt and cause people to feel pity. As scum, she seems to be expecting a response whereas as town, she merely expects to get lynched and get out of the game.

In this game, he ragequit while being flashwagoned at deadline seems overwhelmingly of the town variety of getting frustrated and wanting to give up. I expect Sakura-scum in the same situation would have said something like "lynch Casso tomorrow when I flip town."

She has completely different mindsets as town and scum. Thanks for posting the links. I am now a lot more sure Sakura is town. Your thoughts?

My qualm is that this is manipulable, and she's been manipulating her play/meta in other ways.

Nacho was right about Mac. I'd much rather lynch someone he's totally behind lynching today.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

You think she is aware of those specific differences that I pointed out?

@ Sakura, do you believe my analysis of your meta is accurate? What are your thoughts about it?

[Bert]

Falcon, why did you pick Sakura to analyze in your limited free time?

Also,

UNVOTE:

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

She was one the people to analyze on my to-do list. I wanted to verify if we were right about her /quit being a town-motivated one.

Was there anyone else you wanted to go over with me?

[geists]

You think she is aware of those specific differences that I pointed out?

Yes to most of it. Maybe all. It's not like some of these links haven't been plopped into other games and discussed before when she's gone fatalistic or threatened to replace out.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Do you have links to where this was discussed? I'd like to see how much self-awareness there is.

[goodmorning]

Guys I am disappoint

[Bert]

why, GM? :C

I like seeing you happy

[Sakura Hana]

@ Sakura, do you believe my analysis of your meta is accurate? What are your thoughts about it?

You've pretty well managed to decipher what my feelings and plans were when i made those actions im impressed.

[geists]

Do you have links to where this was discussed? I'd like to see how much self-awareness there is.

There was a huge discussion about it in the FEA game right after she self-voted and then said she was replacing out. I think my earlier link is very close to that. I think I was the first to say whoa hold on a bit this could be town fatalism. Cabd later agreed, but he was thinking it was scum-motivated at first.

There's also a discussion in one of my scum games where I defended the heck out of her apparent fatalism related to offering to be lynched in Cabd's place. She later said it was fake - she wasn't townreading him that hard until after he reacted to a fake inno crumb she left on day 2. This is where my defense started: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 9#p5347879

[Sakura Hana]

This kind of discussion is really unsettling, if you want to find out my alignment then why not just lynch me and find out? It's not like I'm doing anything to convince you otherwise.

I am aware of my meta, but my emotions just go high wire in discussions like these, which is why I initially tried to become less emotional, with that failing and the trust tell becoming stronger i pretty much have no other option other than to quit mafia so I stop ruining games for others...

The other option would have been to break the trust tell by doing it as scum, unfortunately it was too late, I tried something already in Ace Attorney but i couldnt get my feelings to come out believable, all in all it's better for me to just stop.

[Desperado]

dunno, but i'm not so much reading nat over you as i am finding something nat did really scummy and then you not doing anything obviously town to counterbalance it

Can you expand on this scummy thing nat did? A simple "no" and I'll assume it's out of bounds.

no

So Desp, what are your thoughts on F16's analysis of my meta and him saying I'm super town?

it's good analysis

The reason I asked was because if you're not seeing anything obviously town in my game

it's quite possibly because you never have.

But, I really thought that it was you townreading me on your own in the Space game. Not you reading Empire. And Not Mollie reading me. So, I can't really get wholeheartedly behind the premise.

probably so

[goodmorning]

why, GM? :C

I like seeing you happy

Casso's not dead

seriouslyyyyyy

[Bert]

awwwwwwwwwww

Vote: Casso

I wanna see a happy GM

or I'll be disappoint

bummed outta my mind

[Generic]

My vote will move if bert (or GM now) can sell me casso as scum over desperado.

Bert ignored this request to my knowledge. But desperado appears to be on shutdown. Last game I accused him of being scum I think we argued for two pages. Here? He seems to have given up.

[pieguyn]

vote: Desp

[DOMO]

Generic, which of the players in this game have you played with before besides Mara? Do you have any strong reads on any of them?

Played with bert (town read), nacho (scum read), natirasha (scum lean), tammy (town read), GIF (slight scum lean), F16 (town lean), mafiaSSK (scum lean), Pieguyn (scum lean), Sakura hana (town lean), desperado (town lean, but unsettled by his lack of involvement).

I think I've also played in a game with BROseidon but he is null in this one to me.

Generic, why don't you sell it yourself? What has changed since this stage of the game to make desp scum and casso not?

fwiw I like this post, these reads look legit and solid.

[Cephrir]

Why. Anyone can attach designations to players.

[DOMO]

Why. Anyone can attach designations to players.

Yes, well anyone can do [enter every town tell here]. Shall I just ask random.org to give me a list of reads?

generic reads as sincere. If he's scum, he's amazing at faking pissy rants, and he's very natural with his responses to people. Yes he could be scum. I do not think so.

I feel strongly enough about generic being town that I'm more worried about you trying to slap down other people's townread on him.

[Cephrir]

Slap. Slap. Slap.

[Cephrir]

I can't imagine why that would worry you?

People are going to argue with others' townreads.

For instance, there is a Casso wagon, and I'm pretty sure *everyone* on his wagon can't be scum.

[DOMO]

I can't imagine why that would worry you?

It worries me because generic has given reason to at least have those scumreading him to reconsider, but you seem unwilling. Looks to me like you're keeping your mislynch options open. I must've said three times during your little discussion with generic that it's town-town, but you showed no sign of relenting. I could understand you being cautious if I were looking dodgy, but I'm as conftown here as I was in xenoblade. I might be wrong, of course, but you should at least consider my comments sincere.