NY 169: The EPIC XD Mafia Game of Greatness (Game Over)

[KoreanBBQ]

It was more Cephir than you.

[Generic]

It actually doesn't look very bad at all? What's bad about it? Do you take issue with 4544 then?

lol. Like you'd agree that his wagon was bad when its a wagon that YOU support. I just tend to think that quick sudden surges are usually some scum piling on. Set up wise, a doc makes plenty of sense given that there were atleast TWO killing roles (mafia kill + vig kill) AND there's some folks that are posting like its maybe multiball for some odd reason. Would be pretty lame of Empire to give town no protective roles in a multikill game. Now I'm not advocating a protective claim but I agree with whomever (domo?) that this isn't the optimal lynch. What really worries me is that its nearly a week to lynch and folks are just like "ok, we give up."

Now my thoughts on Mrs. and Mr. Mara are that I hate them and like both GM and Mara make me go crazy. I think their reason for claiming was pretty lame and Mara claimed all early like WOT. GM also had allot of suspicion on their slot so did Mara claim mason to keep us from lynching GM?

GIF, I need you to read what I wrote in the qt and tell me if you think I should post about it?

Why not a jailkeeper or bodyguard, something that can coexist with a doc and wouldn't *need* to cc?

I didn't ask you about MCM, I asked you about their post. What's wrong with the logic? You just think SSK is town? If so, you'll need a better reason than "because there's gonna be a doc in the setup".

Cephrir , your Bert and Bro reads plox.

Town and probably town.

PLEASE ABORT.
Geists, I think you have chosen poorly.
First and most importantly, SSK is NOT likely to flip scum for behavioral reasons I shall explain when we have more time.
His doctor claim has gone uncountered. I find it unlikely we have no protective role.
Doctor is valuable here because we have a lot of other roles claimed AND we're on evens with our vig dead.
The high likelihood scum will shoot him if we leave him alone is a factor as well.

Doctor and protective role are not congruent.

Please, please give me a decent behavioral reason SSK is town though, because I can't find one.

Newsflash, if SSK is a doc A) there is a scum roleblocker and B) scum are never going to shoot him b/c they KNOW we will lynch him eventually.

The calmer you stay the more I like you cephrir, this is a great post.

unvote

Now I'm back fully I will look over things again. Casso remains a serious option, I just don't want to find out I've been steered by scum players to help them remove a threat to them. But then maybe that's what's been happening with SSK.

[geists]

I am still in the process of doing a meta-dive on Cephrir.

Geists, what are your thought about Cephrir?

I'm going to discount the first game we played because I was new to MS. It was my 2nd game and I played an insanely intense game during the two weeks or so of day 1. It was a while before I learned to pace myself in months-long game days. Ceph was suspicious of me early on, and he wasn't alone. I picked up 5 or 6 votes and never really understood my wagon or the reasons why it dissipated. My reaction to being run up was considered "town" for reasons that weren't really articulated. Ceph was one of the players who decided I was town during that and his read never wavered. I on the other hand maintained a suspicion of him that lasted longer than I did, since I was the N1 kill.

In that game he did stuff that players NEVER did where I played elsewhere because they were considered to basically be scumclaims. This was my introduction to the power of site meta as a shaping force on player behaviors.

Our next two games, he was scum - NY 164 and NY 165. I replaced into NY 164 on day 2 and he replaced into NY 165 on day 1. In NY 165 he expressed some suspicion of me because I wasn't playing "like the Amnesia game". At the time I thought it was a pretty gutsy stance because I was p much a universal townread at the stage of day 1 where he replaced in, and after pushing him on that read a bit I decided he was probably town.

In NY 164 we didn't interact much. He had fairly static stances, though, IIRC, and occasionally lamented that nobody was listening to him about his top scumreads.

On the face of it, his scum games look more town than his town games do. But, there's a smugness that starts to show through as the game progresses, especially if he's made his way into the townbloc. I wish I had been aware of that in NY 165.

His town games on the other hand, are anything but smug. In NY 167 he defended his townreads, he was angsty, he jumped on stuff, and he was anything but smug. In the Dixon Hill hardboiled game he had fits trying to read me, mostly because (even after seeing me play in ny 164 and ny 165, he expected the hectic pace, near 24/7 involvement, and highly aggressive play that I'd given to the Amnesiac game. It was day 3 before he tentatively settled on a town read of me. In the Cash Cabd Mini Normal, he had a very srsbsns approach. He townread me really quickly, which after Dixon Hill made me very skeptical. He kept a very strong focus and identified a scum player (besides the one we lynched that day). He was an even night hider, and hid behind his scum pick that night.

The thing those two games had in common was that he had a high-stakes town PR.

So what am I seeing here? He's doing some of the stubborn "deal with it" stuff here that he did in ny 167, and to some extent Cash Cabd. He's not looking as angsty, though. I'm also not seeing stuff (yet, anyway) that pings as smug.

[Cephrir]

For the sake of my ego I would have preferred a word other than "angsty", but otherwise, accurate.

[geists]

Can you link those scumgames where Sakura gave up and self-voted? I think I might be able to do a compare and contrast with her towngames to see if there are underlying motivations that can be spotted.

Here are a few games, scum and town.

As town: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 9#p5222069 This was a self-hammer

As scum not faking it (I think) - http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 9#p5154079 This was L-1

This game is a twofer: As scum faking it (I think) http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 7#p5088017. As scum in the same game self-hammering: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p5103138

As town: this one seemed mostly frustration. http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p5161695 and this one looked like pure fatalism. http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 6#p5215726


As town, to avoid a no lynch at deadline: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 1#p5474281

As scum, self-hammer: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 7#p5505567

As town, over a supposed scumslip: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 1#p5266921

[MafiaSSK]

His play has nothing to do with my read. I think SSK is scum because he claimed doc in a gunsmith setup, and because his action claim makes no sense. That's pretty much it.

I was going to do the whole thing that I do when I find there's a wagon on me and I look at it and point out just how full of shit it is, but I think Ceph's post captures the majority of points.

A. The read has nothing to do with my actual play. Once lynched, what information could town possibly get besides maybe setup confirmation? which leads me to
B. There's somehow an imaginary rule that goes with gunsmith setups or whatever that a doc can only be balanced for scum? Guess what? I'm a town doc in this setup, so that is very clearly wrong.
C. He thinks my action has to make sense. I'm now on my fourth prod in this game, meaning I only have one more left, and that just goes to show how apathetic I am towards this game. I haven't given a shit. I didn't see any stinking mason claim or whatever. I knew that geists looked town, so I protected them. Simple as that.

[Empire]

Day 2, Votecount 22

MafiaSSK (6)

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geists, Desperado, Casso the King of Seals, Sakura Hana, Bert, Cephrir

Casso the King of Seals (3)

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goodmorning, DOMO, Norlkaz

Bert (2)

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KoreanBBQ, Ser Arthur Dayne

Desperado (1)

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MC Maraca

Ser Arthur Dayne (1)

-

pieguyn

Cephrir (1)

-

F-16_Fighting_Falcon

Not Voting (4)

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MafiaSSK, BROseidon, zMuffinMan, Generic

With 18 alive, it takes 10 to lynch! Deadline is on January 11th at 10:10 AM EST (expired on 2014-01-11 11:10:12)

Mod Notes

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Generic is V/LA until Sunday.

[Desperado]

PLEASE ABORT.
Geists, I think you have chosen poorly.
First and most importantly, SSK is NOT likely to flip scum for behavioral reasons I shall explain when we have more time.
His doctor claim has gone uncountered. I find it unlikely we have no protective role.
Doctor is valuable here because we have a lot of other roles claimed AND we're on evens with our vig dead.
The high likelihood scum will shoot him if we leave him alone is a factor as well.

you aren't this dumb

His play has nothing to do with my read. I think SSK is scum because he claimed doc in a gunsmith setup, and because his action claim makes no sense. That's pretty much it.

I was going to do the whole thing that I do when I find there's a wagon on me and I look at it and point out just how full of shit it is, but I think Ceph's post captures the majority of points.

A. The read has nothing to do with my actual play. Once lynched, what information could town possibly get besides maybe setup confirmation? which leads me to

why did you claim again? i don't remember

B. There's somehow an imaginary rule that goes with gunsmith setups or whatever that a doc can only be balanced for scum? Guess what? I'm a town doc in this setup, so that is very clearly wrong.

this should be his strongest point, but it just ends of coming off lame

C. He thinks my action has to make sense. I'm now on my fourth prod in this game, meaning I only have one more left, and that just goes to show how apathetic I am towards this game. I haven't given a shit. I didn't see any stinking mason claim or whatever. I knew that geists looked town, so I protected them. Simple as that.

"i'm an essential town pr in a game with a bunch of awesome people that i know and have played with, but i just don't give two fucks and wasn't even aware of the most important d1 event that almost certainly would have effected my night action if i were actually paying attention. why on earth do you think i'm scum?!?!"

[Generic]

didn't he claim after being run up to L1? it was definitely wagon led I remember that.

If we were to leave SSK for today desp who would be your number one choice? Because it looks like you have finally come to play, makes a nice change.

[Desperado]

didn't he claim after being run up to L1? it was definitely wagon led I remember that.

If we were to leave SSK for today desp who would be your number one choice? Because it looks like you have finally come to play, makes a nice change.

yeah that was my point. and why was he at l-1?

it only "looks like i've finally come to play" because you are here when i am here. my #1 would be dayne

[DOMO]

I knew that geists looked town, so I protected them. Simple as that.

So on n1, you're happy that geists is town, so you protect her, because she's an asset to town, but on d2 after she has been cleared by gunsmith you object to her leading town.

That's what makes no sense to me. Please explain.

[BROseidon]

Cabd claimed masons with you, called you town for ~vague meta reasons~ for a while, then retracted the fake claim, then reiterated the claim. It's pretty clear you two are masons together unless you're not actually masons together, in which case you should probably say something.

Why the fuck would you say this.

If he's not the other mason, the town play would be to pretend to be the other mason until the round before expected LyLo, when the real mason would come forward.

[Generic]

im only teasing ya bro, you know I like to look to you for your opinions because when you are town you have a lot to offer us... I have just struggled to feel the town desp vibes in this.

You seem to have this knack of being incredibly passive and uninvolved and yet drop the occasional spark of town desp... im still trying to determine if that's you trying to present town desp or you ACTUALLY being town desp,

But I digress. I actually like the vote on SSK but every time I go near it people seem to get all 'this is a bad wagon, we could be killing the town doc'... im trying to actually stay involved and not go apathetic (the full arsehole if you like) but im losing touch with this game through wishy washy limp wristed cases.

DOMO had a bit of fucking bite when I called him a moron but has become so weak willed over everything ever since I am struggling to take on board any point he makes.

SAD looked like a decent wagon at one time but he floods the game with whining walls and everyone seems to back off him.

WHAT THE FUCK IS THE BEST OPTION?

Even the casso wagon creates a series of posts from them sapping my energy with the '5 whys' to every point made and a few people who want to call them scum but then start the 'but what if' line of thought that leaves even more doubt in my mind on pushing a hydra consisting of supposedly two of mafiascums elite.

So desp, my mafiascum nemesis, PLEASE be town and tell me where I should focus my energy on the read back now, SAD? or should we roll the dice here and go for SSK and fuck the consequences?

Believe it or not im in a good mood, but im up for a good fight if we need to put pressure on someone, I will force nacho into one even though he has been hiding from me all game... YOU HEAR THAT NACHO, I THINK YOU ARE CHICKEN!

[DOMO]

DOMO had a bit of fucking bite when I called him a moron but has become so weak willed over everything ever since I am struggling to take on board any point he makes.

So you actually prefer it if I have bite? I wound my neck in somewhat because I don't actually like pissing people off. Why did you threaten to quit if you liked my attitude?

[BROseidon]

OK in all seriousness, yes Nacho's walls do remind me of his wall on Brian Skies's meta which Falcon called out in Mentor/Mentee 254. Nacho isn't usually this verbose? He's talking out of his you-know-where maybe, but I won't interrupt his walls while he is in his charming world of charming people. CRAZY THEORY: He knows this is the Nacho we all want to say, and so he is overdoing that aspect of his ID.

They remind me of this: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p5175588

We were both up all night working on our walls for that game.

Didn't you/Nacho also do that in 167?

[BROseidon]

When I played with her, her scum game was kinda crap and whenever she showed that kind of emotion meant she's town. However, I haven't played with her in at least 6 months, likely closer to a year. People change their playstyles, and she could've easily developed the ability to fake that kind of rage as scum *shrug*

She was recently scum in Anything Goes and she tried really hard to fake frustration at me/AP for scum reading her/the rest of her scum team. It felt very fake.

Her emotion here felt very real.

[Generic]

DOMO had a bit of fucking bite when I called him a moron but has become so weak willed over everything ever since I am struggling to take on board any point he makes.

So you actually prefer it if I have bite? I wound my neck in somewhat because I don't actually like pissing people off. Why did you threaten to quit if you liked my attitude?

im a complicated man DOMO, and my threat was more to do with my loss of control than your ability to make a stance and fight the fuck for it.

Lets me and you call the truce for this day phase, and discuss best lynch options. I am trying eith desp, but at least with you I have greater confidence in you being actually town.

Casso is one of yours and I think you had a great point when you said the votes came in for SSK at a convenient time... lets start there and move through SAD and SSK too shall we?

[Desperado]

So desp, my mafiascum nemesis, PLEASE be town and tell me where I should focus my energy on the read back now, SAD? or should we roll the dice here and go for SSK and fuck the consequences?

i say we do both

[DOMO]

im a complicated man DOMO, and my threat was more to do with my loss of control than your ability to make a stance and fight the fuck for it.

Fair enough. And yeah I'm totally willing to truce, I do not think you're scum at this stage; for you to be scum you're very good at faking lack of emotional control.

I just had a thought about SSK - if he's scum doc, would he claim town doc? I'm thinking scum RB'er would do well to claim town doc, because if he's tracked, he can explain why he visited a strong towny type player, rather than a scummy type player.

As for SAD, he makes me nervous, but that's largely because he owned me to shit at lylo in our other game. I'm always gonna have a hard time towning SAD. I can happily see him die because he's so fucking dangerous as scum. I'm not sure I've seen him as town before.

[DOMO]

deps is someone I *think* is town. He has a naturally abrasive manner about him, but I think his motives betray his alignment. In oz I was scumreading him from the start. Ok Oz is not a great game for meta comparison, as has been stated several times already, but I didn't feel like he was making much of an effort to appear townish. This game his motivations seem town, hence my weak town read on him.

[BROseidon]

I'll do what ffery won't.

VOTE: SSK

Why aren't we lynching him?

[DOMO]

I need to finish an ISO of casso. I'm cautious because ffery hasn't supported this wagon, and I expect her to be able to read both nacho and thor better than I can. I do find it interestingthat a lot of points I make get countered before casso has even responded though. That's not necessarily an issue, if I'm alone in thinking something is scummy then I'm probably being paranoid. I have an open mind with casso.

[BROseidon]

If SSK somehow flips town this wagon needs a good look at. Those townies who are voting for him, it's premature ejaculation, pure and simple. The only reason I can think of to lynch him today is in case he's actually scum RB'er faking doc, but no-one is arguing this, and more to the point, he's not fighting his lynch in a manner that makes me think he's important to scum. If he's scum, then good chance he's being bussed to take heat off other scum. And if he's town, this is a fistpump lynch for scum.

I do not like this lynch.

So much of this.

[BROseidon]

Also,

VOTE: Casso

Subject to change based on the rest of my catchup.

[BROseidon]

I've played SSK before. He's naturally scummy. I think he is scum here, but he could just be the world's scummiest townie and actually a fucking doc. So please let's not kill him, because doing so is PREMATURE EJACULATION at best, and a horrible mistake at worst.

I think it's more likely that he's town fake claiming doc than it is that he's actually a town doc.

These are both less likely than him being scum, though.