Mafia 60: Face-to-Face - Game over!

[Glork]

fake prediction: our third and final power role will play incredibly lazily today, get themselves cornered into a claim, and get picked off tonight like yet another yorkie yapping at waterbugs on a florida pond.

I strongly disagree.



Can we just pressure Ether, lynch CDB, and go to night?

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Glrok, what I meant was that I was bandwagonning(although I was actually the first vote on you because it was so early in the Day). You pointed out I wasn't voting, so I voted.

[Glork]

Ohhh. That makes more sense.

Please move your vote off of Thesp and put it somewhere useful.

:knowstuff: [/Fritz]

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Did you miss where Thesp said a hammer wasn't necessary because he was going to be deadline lynched? He deliberately propagated a falsehood with the intent of surviving the day.

[Glork]

No, I did not. I still believe that Thesp is very likely pro-town.

[Patrick]

Hi MBL. Thanks for the exagerated surprise and outrage. It's entertaining. I admit to my vote on mgm being useless, since I didn't plan on lynching him. And despite the fact that Ether would never have been lynched, maybe I should have voted her. Couldn't be any worse than voting mgm I suppose.

I admit to being indecisive around that stage.

1) Looking for support in finishing off the claimed cop
2) Pre-emptively looking for an alternative to Thesp, who was the alternative to Adele
3) Looking for people to vote Zindaras so you wouldn't stand out like a sore thumb there (or alternatively, weak distancing from Zindaras)

I didn't plan on voting Adele. I noted that as scum in that position I would expect a powerole claim. Lynching a claimed cop is too risky. Pre-emptively looking for an alternative to Thesp? I think I'd have voted for Ether if I was looking for an easy alternative to Thesp. I certainly didn't think I could get Zindaras from 0 to 7 votes in about 7 hours. To take only a small leap here, I'm assuming you think I'm linked to Thesp in some way. Let me ask you, have you read any of my games as scum?
As for the third one, I'm not 'distancing' myself from Zindaras. I always had a kind of blind spot for him, but when he made that weak attack on me yesterday, I reread his posts and decided he was scummier than I first thought. Again, I think it's ludicrous to suggest that I had any aspirations of getting him lynched at that point. I've never seen such things happen.

why didn't you move your vote to anyone yesterday before sunset?

I wasn't willing to hammer Thesp. I hold my hands up to making a mistake in not voting Ether, though I believe it wouldn't have made any difference.

----

And the few things I can see from Glork's post that need commentary:

Thesp, Patrick, and CDB all expressed "sorry for lurking/slacking, I'll contribute" sentiments. Guarantee at least one is probably scum.

This is just a false dilemna. I don't make a habit of it, but I'd just not posted in a few days and wanted to let ppl know that I'd be back to it the following day. To suggest that one of us is likely scum because of that is ridiculous, and is not the first false dilemna you've presented in your long posts.

Patrick to MBM in 585, MBL doesn't like Pat's attitude. MBL also notices a very intersting apparent flip-flop between "I think the case was overstated" to "I buy the case," as indicated in 588.

589 is a lengthy response by Patrick, noting differences in the D1 case and the D2 case against MGM. He posits Adele/MGM, plus possibly Thesp. Considering Adele wasn't scum, MGM is likely not scum, and I'm now thinking that Thesp is very probably legit, I start to wonder about Patrick, too.

I don't believe there was a flip flop, just a natural thought process. It's called changing your mind. I don't know what makes you wonder aboout my suggesting Adele/mgm and Thesp. Only one of those is guaranteed town, and people can be wrong. I don't think I had an unreasonable point of view.

643-651 is basically a debate between Patrick and Thesp. It amounts to mutual FoSes. I honestly don't find it terribly interesting, but you're welcome to look at it yourself.

Earlier on you said that you 'completely agreed' with Thesp's point of view and you said that something in the prof plum debate made you think I was scum.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

That can't be a false dilemma. He presents 7 different possibilities, not 2.

[Patrick]

Whatever. I don't see how 3 people apologising for recent inactivity can mean that at least one of them is scum.

[Zindaras]

Glork, it would be better if you would look at my posts before deciding I'm scum.

More tomorrow, I need sleep now.

[Glork]

Because it is fairly common for scum to apologize, appear to try to contribute, then fade back into the background. I consider it a scumtell of sorts. If you'll note, Patrick, I've ended up focusing on Zindie and CDB for more reasons as well.

Additionally, when I see a

group

of players all do that in quick succession, I tend to think that one of the last couple is trying to "fit in" with the others. They can excuse their own lurkiness, but they are less likely to be singled out because others did it as well. Note how Zindaras later offered the "but others have lurked" statement when Thesp was pressuring CDB. That's exactly the sort of thing that I'm talking about.

[Zindaras]

EBWOP: Something quick to point out: you, funnily enough, link to my post saying that Ether is pro-town, but you do not link to my post saying that Adele is pro-town, even though they were both after reading posts in isolation.

[Glork]

One more thing Re: Patrick:

Earlier on you said that you 'completely agreed' with Thesp's point of view and you said that something in the prof plum debate made you think I was scum.

I don't find it interesting because I have nothing further to say on the topic. I'm not going to regurgitate everything because I'm doing a lengthy analysis.

Glork, it would be better if you would look at my posts before deciding I'm scum.

More tomorrow, I need sleep now.

Excuse me? What do you mean "if I would look at your posts." I've looked at every post you have made up through Page 29, and I have concluded that up to this point, I think you are scum. I don't understand what you're talking about.

[Glork]

EBWOP: Something quick to point out: you, funnily enough, link to my post saying that Ether is pro-town, but you do not link to my post saying that Adele is pro-town, even though they were both after reading posts in isolation.

This is because I have only read through Page 29, and you made that post on Page 32. For the love of God, Zindie,

PAY ATTENTION TO WHAT IS GOING ON.

[Zindaras]

Excuse me? What do you mean "if I would look at your posts." I've looked at every post you have made up through Page 29, and I have concluded that up to this point, I think you are scum. I don't understand what you're talking about.

No, I'm saying that you decided I was scum before making that analysis.

537, Glork notes that there is a ton of cross-suspicion bewteen himself and his five suspects. I hadn't thought of this earlier, but that might indicate that scums are sitting back and letting us rip each other apart. Definitely 1-2 scums in this group of six. More likely 1, rather than 2, though, I think. Glork also notes that Patrick, Zindaras, and Nightfall are being lazy/lurky... (Interesting that CDB called two of these three pro-town, eh?)

Interesting that if I call Patsy out, saying he has to post more, I'm being flat-out incorrect, but if you do it, it's all right.

563, Zindaras agrees with Glork/MBL, finds Thesp/Adele suspicious. Delicious fuel-the-fire goodness? Who knows...

This is a good example of you deciding I was scum before actually reading the thread. Probably, if I had posted suspicions against other people, I would've been trying to get suspicion off my scumbuddies or trying to look more pro-town later by setting my buddies up for a lynch now. And if I hadn't posted at all, I would've been lying low.

Zindaras makes a PBPA of Thesp in 584, keeps pushing the "lynch Thesp" theme.

Another good example. Who did, again, push the "Lynch AndrewS" theme Day 1? Who built all his opinions on the fact that AndrewS was scum? Hey, wouldn't that be Thesp?

If you think I am scum for pushing the lynch of "pro-town" Thesp, then you should find Thesp scummy for pushing the lynch of pro-town AndrewS.

Interestingly enough, Zindie commits one of my favorite scumtells in 641, protecting CDB. Thesp accuses CDB of being lurkerscum. Zindie replies by wanting to look at other lurkers, too. Another scary post which is

very

reminiscent of a post in a past game. In this post in Kingmaker1, PJscum basically said "yes, Ameliaslay [scumbag] is lurking, but so are Chamber [town] and Fritzler [town]!" Basically, it's a protection ploy to get people away from your scumbuddy and to try to look elsewhere.

Interestingly enough, Thesp committed one of my favourite scumtells by attacking CdB and no one else over being lurking scum. You see, if Player A attacks Player B over exhibiting Behaviour X, but Player C also exhibits Behaviour X, then Player A could easily be scum with Player C.

Zindie to Thesp (lynch -2) in 671.

I find it amusing that when I put someone at Lynch-2, it is worth noting, but you don't note any Lynch-2 or even Lynch-1 votes.

This is because I have only read through Page 29, and you made that post on Page 32. For the love of God, Zindie,

PAY ATTENTION TO WHAT IS GOING ON.

Post 642 says hi.

[Glork]

Interesting that if I call Patsy out, saying he has to post more, I'm being flat-out incorrect, but if you do it, it's all right.

I wasn't calling him (or you or CDB) out. I was stating that lurkerscum often "apologize" for their inactivity and get this sudden burst of "inspiration" before fading away again.

Another good example. Who did, again, push the "Lynch AndrewS" theme Day 1? Who built all his opinions on the fact that AndrewS was scum? Hey, wouldn't that be Thesp?

If you think I am scum for pushing the lynch of "pro-town" Thesp, then you should find Thesp scummy for pushing the lynch of pro-town AndrewS.

No. If I held "whenever somebody pushes a lynch on a pro-town player," I'd want to lynch like eight of the other ten players right now (though incidentally, there are more players than usual that I find to be scummy). The differences come in the manner, timing, and reasoning of a push on a pro-town player. You're intentionally oversimplifying this to try to make a point... and it's not working.

I find it amusing that when I put someone at Lynch-2, it is worth noting, but you don't note any Lynch-2 or even Lynch-1 votes.

Wrong. In Part I of my analysis, I pointed out that IH put AndrewS at -3 and CES put AndrewS at -2, asking you to vote for him.
The reason that I posted "-X" is because you, IH, or CES also posted "-2" or "-3" in your posts. I was trying to use the wording (if you can call it that) that you used. You're making a tremendous deal out of nothing.

Post 642 says hi.

642 is a completely neutral statement. Saying that your gut feeling had gone away does not equate to saying that you think somebody is pro-town. Your "I read Adele in isolation and think she is pro-town" statement came in 788. Though I now realize that you meant to call her pro-town in 642, you were far too ambiguous in that post. At any rate, it seems to be a moot point now.

[Thesp]

A lynch would've given us useful information whereas the murder of Adele tells us nothing we didn't know already. A lynch would've given us the chance to analyse the wagon.

It looks like we've got plenty to analyze from yesterday.

Would you be referring to this interaction:
Thesp wrote:
I still think he's town for other outweighing reasons that I don't care to divulge.

or one of the interactions where Fritz says you're a terrible lynch? Please clarify, Thesp, cause your comment looks like the kind of flippant thing a partner of Fritz would say to brush past his blatant protection of you if you're both scum. I see no unusual interaction between the two of you that indicates there's no way you're aligned.

No, I'm using my own analysis of how I usually see scum interact, which in retrospect is not useful to everyone else, since I could deliberately counter it and use as a defense.

OK wait. So the most reasonable explanation is that you're town and all three scum were already on your wagon, and the remaining five or six townies all had genuine doubts about your guilt to the point of foregoing a lynch altogether? (Making them look FOSable in the process)

It could also conceivably be only two, with a third not online at the time to finish the vote, but yes, I think it more likely that scum were already on the wagon, rather than scum delaying in finishing the vote. Your theory (that 2 fellow scum of the 5(?) non-votees would be protecting me by not voting) would also require that 0 scum were already on the wagon, which would be exceedingly rare by any standard.

I don't see Thesp avoid getting lynched much longer.

Why?

I am loving a Zindie+CDB pairing.

QFT. Definitely.

Did you miss where Thesp said a hammer wasn't necessary because he was going to be deadline lynched? He deliberately propagated a falsehood with the intent of surviving the day.

I'm amazed at your psychic powers in being able to divine my intent at the time of that post. :rolleyes: Let's look at this:

Of course I didn't really want a page 4 lynch or anything, but

this town is responsible to the extent that I can just do whatever I want anyhow

.

This has got to stop.

I strongly suggest no one take anything CES does or says seriously until he puts some actual content out here.

He's starting to do a little bit of it, but he's got to do more at this point. He's saying it's our fault he's acting like this, so let's fix it.

I'm leaning more and more towards Patrick as town. Also, I <3 Glork.

If I were forced to at this point, I'd probably peg a ChannelDelibird, Zindaras, Cogtio Ergo Sum group as mafia.

[Patrick]

mmm. Zindaras is making some odd replies. His two minor attacks on me this game didn't make sense, but part of my suspicion on Zindaras is gut, in that he doesn't seem to have the same consistency, thought processes and curiosity of some of the players. He just seems to jump around a bit without much reasoning. He's blamed part of it on being busy, and then claimed to be trying to copy Fritzler, which would be a very easy answer for scum to give to excuse virtually anything. I dunno, some of the players I can understand the way their thoughts move logically, maybe because I've thought similar things, but I don't see that in Zindaras. Not that he's the only one.

I understood where Ether was going more on day 1, but the strong attack on Nightfall still seems strange. And the chronic lurking is worrying.

I'm leaning more and more towards Patrick as town.

Wow. Maybe I should sig this.

[Glork]

And the chronic lurking is worrying.

Reposted and made extremely large so that Ether doesn't miss this.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

He's saying it's our fault he's acting like this, so let's fix it.

Don't be silly, Thesp. I'm saying this town is a responsible one. I don't have to worry about bandwagons spiralling out of control and page 4 lynches, that sort of thing. I can vote the way I like. I don't need to show restraint. That's what I meant. Obviously.

And your remark served no real purpose, if you were town. And why assume that one is going to be deadline-lynched rather than simply giving the rules a quick read? The remark is simply far consistent with you being scum.

[Fritzler]

Ohhh. That makes more sense.

Please move your vote off of Thesp and put it somewhere useful.

:knowstuff: [/Fritz]

glork is so icey

who do you want to lynch?

ether the 30 year old creepy guy?

[Glork]

Ether is a good bet for now.

Might switch to CDB or maybe Zindaras later. I need to hear from Ether first.

[Ether]

That's right, it's another "I'm free; I'm finally

free

" statement that'll be rendered obsolete in about 12 hours. I'm bitter.

I hope that makes more sense now.

Okay. It wasn't really saying anything about scumminess or opinion or anything interesting at all, then. Pfeh, I was getting my hopes up.

So, um, Ether... why no hammer before you went to bed?

Well, I definitely had the chance. I dimly remember staring at his posts two hours before deadline trying to remember why I had offered the hammer. These thoughts were based on how scummy I found him as opposed to the parity issues I'd spoken of when I said I'd hammer, and my Thespscum thoughts have never gone very far.

Ether, did you actually find AndrewS

scummy

for not expecting to be FoS'd?

I found him scummy for immediately shrinking back when he took flak for his vote.

I'd argue with the rest of the 880-on-me section of the PBP, but I think that clears up the '180' and your explicit questions and I think I'll start fuming if I ever have to place "Andrew" and "WIFOM" in the same sentence again.

Doesn't like MGM, but likes IH less. Reasons, Ether? Reasons are always nice.

My stance on Mgm was, "Um,

okay

." At the time, I was trying to decide whether Mgm was useless or outright sinister (something I haven't really come to a conclusion on, but the innocent helps). IH attacked Mgm, and I was under the impression that he initiated this. (Looking back, that's not completely true.) This implied that they were not together.

Sound reminiscent of D2 when she said she'd hammer Thesp? Hmm.

I do not understand the significance of this remark.

(Making them look FOSable in the process) Cause the way I see it, it's much more likely that you're scum and your scumpartners weren't willing to pile on.

The WIFOM is mostly based on my own actions and I'd really rather leave it to other people--but I find this counterintuitive.

Keeping your vote there wasn't helping in securing a

scum lynch

.

Vote:Patrick

for not using his vote to help secure a useful lynch (any lynch other than myself).

Hmm?

Interestingly enough, Zindie commits one of my favorite scumtells in 641, protecting CDB. Thesp accuses CDB of being lurkerscum. Zindie replies by wanting to look at other lurkers, too.

I find this intriguing, especially remembering Zindaras's statement on Patrick on Day 1. In general, I like the attacks on Zindaras. I'm bored.

FoS Thesp.

That is such a reaching argument. You're case against CDB is reaching and of roughly the same quality as your case against Andrew was. There's something not quite right about your play compared too times I've seen you as town.

No, seriously. You explicitly said here that Thesp was out of character, but your later statements have contradicted this. Please explain.

ether the 30 year old creepy guy?

*spits on Fritzler*

[Fritzler]

ether the 30 year old creepy guy?

*spits on Fritzler*

If you were really a girl you wouldn't do that for three reasons.

1. Girls don't spit like that, they think its gross. Watch 300, the bitch gets spit on, and stabs the dude. If you were a girl that's what you did.
2. No 18 year old girl would get offended at that, only a 30 year old guy with something to hide.
3. 3 points are much more official than 2.

[Mgm]

I'll be away today and I'll probably need the best part of tomorrow to catch up on the thread. Just so you know...

[Patrick]

No, seriously. You explicitly said here that Thesp was out of character, but your later statements have contradicted this. Please explain.

Yeah it was. His suspicions on day 2 seemed unusually feeble, and felt like little more than going after non contributors. That is out of character. At first I felt the attack on me was an attempt to appear useful or constructive too, but I changed my mind as it continued (not that I liked it). His play on day 1 was pretty usual for him.