Open 512: See Nine Plus Plus (Game Ovah)

[Does Bo Know]

Votecount 1.30

[L-4] Titus - Saki, Varsoon, CherryDrPepper
[L-6] CherryDrPepper - Dyslexicon
[L-6] jmo16mla - StubbsKVM
[L-6] Varsoon - jmo16mla
[L-6] Vote Me - oriole

Not Voting: TunnelVision, Vote Me, Paschendale, Glass, Flench, Titus

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch!

Deadline is Friday, August 2nd, 2013 at 7:30 PM CST ((expired on 2013-08-02 19:30:00)).

---

I would highly suggest people going on V/LA to

bold

their request, so that I can certainly record it. I almost missed Stubbs's V/LA announcement.

StubbsKVM is V/LA until July 22nd.

[CherryDrPepper]

@Cherry/Pasche: I've agreed on the lurker bit for awhile. Is there a good way to get the less active people involved?

How do you think people will start getting involved?

-Sakura Hana

[Flench]

Uh... sure they can. I've done that as scum. Fighting with a teammate early on but never building enough steam to get a lynch is a good way to do early distancing. However, I don't think the Vars/Saki situation is an example of it, because it is likely to lead to a lynch. But don't rule it out.

Flench, I don't really like the pairing angle. Don't make associations based on unflipped slots. They're usually wrong. Explain your Cherry scum read specifically.

I can't think of a better way to find mafia then looking at who they have seriously pressured and go from there. Any mafia can half-heartedly go after another to distance themselves, I only chose fights I thought were legit, obviously I could be wrong.

Cherry jumped on the easiest wagon(after you and I), Saki, and rode it until Saki was nearly lynched. This suggests he and Saki are not both mafia, because mafia do not like to jump on other mafias wagons late in the wagon(they might vote first or second for another mafia but not third). I also think Cherry has typically pitched in to add to whoever was under pressure at that time, not really starting the pressure but just enhancing it. All this reads mafia to me.

[Varsoon]

Posting, articulating votes, giving reads, etc.
How to get them involved?
That's the tricky part.

[Varsoon]

@Flench: Put a vote down, then? The strongest thing you can do to support your views is have an unyielding vote put down.

[Dyslexicon]

@Dys: Feels like Saki's more newbtown playing defensive then scum manipulating people. Feels like Titus might be manipulating me. Sitting back to see what they have to say.
334 is me entertaining a town-Saki.

No regards for the odds?

Except you doubted Saki's claim way before Varsoon claimed:

And a few more... then when Varson claimed you used it to cast even MORE doubt on Saki's claim, you would be doubting Saki regardless of Varsoon's claim, sorry but i have a hard time believing you're town now.

-Sakura Hana

Why is this so scummy? If someone you find scummy claim PT there's no rule that says you can't push them for more answers, and you certainly can still doubt their claim. Would it be better if Titus just left Saki alone?

@Cherry: Which is why I am hesitant. Titus seems really eager for the Saki lynch, which is null, given the situation. Still, makes me noided.

Do you think Titus seemed eager for a Saki lynch between Saki's and your claim? Why does a null tell make you noided?

@tunnel: Funny that you came into the thread looking to exploit a lynch. Anywaaaay.
I originally wanted attention so I would come off as VI and wouldn't be a lynch target or NK.
Earlier, in-thread, I explained why explaining my methods would be pro-scum.
Admitting to town what I'm up to equates to admitting to scum as to what I'm up to.
So, yeah, if I don't live through the night, it's due to belligerent rubes like you.

You actually agree with me on something. That's weird.

And what do you think about that? What is your estimate that Varsoon is town?

@Oriole: I'm hesitant to support a Titus/Saki lynch right now, since I'm growing more and more convinced that this is a townvtown conflict. Now, to confirm we're both Roleblockers, we could let Saki and I live to the night and then we could target each other. Of course, this doesn't account for jailers/other similar roles.

How would this work? Also, there are no jailers in C9++.

So, people who support lynching between Saki(me) and Varsoon, your main argument is numbers..?

Yes, it is for me. It's about 1% chance they are both town. I can understand the logic behind not lynching between them, and if they are both telling the truth that would royally suck. What I don't understand though is why they don't vote each other. Saki who didn't vote Varsoon when he got CC'd is for me counter intuitive. For them if they are indeed RB they'd have 99% chance of going for a scum lynch, so them voting other people doesn't make sense unless their more than 99% certain this someone else is scum. Which doesn't seem to be the case, especially for Varsoon. Actually they've both ended up with a vote on Titus, which is bizarre. This makes them even more suspect imo. Also, going for another lynch could possibly trigger another claim as well, which I don't think we need at this point.

I already suspect Titus
Equally as much as I suspect that if I put a vote on Titus, he'll get lynched, flip town,

and then either Saki or me will me mislynched D2.

This implies Saki is town then? Why so sure?

I started taking notes and decided to just post the notes instead of redoing everything on the computer, sorry if you don't like pictures.

This is really cool. And your handwriting is exactly like mine, which freaks me out, hah!

I don't think I FOS'd saki either..

Why did you vote Varsoon? What do you think about Saki?

Two people trying to kill each other can be of the same alignment but they both cannot be mafia.

Actually they can. But that would depend on how real the attack feels I guess, which would always be up to debate. I'll look over the "real" factor myself when I get the time, hopefully soon.

---

VOTE: Varsoon

I don't understand him not voting Saki, but instead voting

with

Saki. Also seems to account for a mislynch on Saki already.

[CherryDrPepper]

Posting, articulating votes, giving reads, etc.
How to get them involved?
That's the tricky part.

It's not really tricky when you think about it.

Here i'll show you an example.

P-Edit: Guess that's already a good example, see Dyslexicon appeared. You could throw questions at them and if they don't answer start voting them until they pop out, and if they still don't pop out, or pop out and say nothing of value keep pusing until they do, there are many ways, but the thing is that for them to work, most of the active ones must want to do it.

[CherryDrPepper]

@Dyslexicon: Re: Titus: Yes, at least until Varsoon claimed that would make it more believable for me

Another thing tho, since you like numbers you say there's a 1% chance that BOTH are town, however looking at them individually what are the chances of one individually being town, and what are the chances of both being scum?, technically the same could be said to any PR claim in the future, are you gonna lynch all of them?

-Sakura Hana

[Varsoon]

@Dys: 715 represents a shift towards me thinking Saki is town. This wouldn't be the first time I've seen VT claim a PR, and it may be the first time there are double PRs. In any case, I've pulled back from the thought Saki is scum and I'm more worried about the people coasting through D1.
Titus' immediate vote for Saki after my cc seems eager enough. 641 represents my paranoia over Titus, even though logically, it feels like it is an null tell.
If I had regards for the odds, I wouldn't have defeated the Anti-Spiral. So long as it isn't Zero Percent, it's just as good as a hundred percent for me!
I didn't realize there are no Jailers.
Also-also, I figure a RB will know if they are RB'd because of the mod-PM they'll get once it happens.

My shift from voting Saki to voting with Saki marks the cognitive shift that I made when I started reading Saki as town. Right now, I'm about 90% sure Saki is town and 60% sure that Titus is scum. Ergo, I'm calling a Saki lynch a mislynch.

Could you provide a reads-list, please? At least one line justifying each read.

[TunnelVision]

Could you provide a reads-list, please? At least one line justifying each read.

I'm going to respectfully ask you to stop doing this/asking for it. These big reads lists from multiple people, in a game like this, makes the mafia's job much easier.

[Titus]

@jmo, here's the flip I'm talking about in your ISO. In 208, you say Saki isn't contributing to scum hunting at all. You pressure him for a bit. 263 is a prod dodge. 424 is jmo pushing a Varsoon lynch. There's two days between 208 and 263 but the flip in logic without posts indicating hesitation worried me.

@Paschendale, I don't think the course of action restraining me is a good idea at all. I'll make myself as muddy as possible to catch a scum or to verify if I am right about scum. Asking me to restrain myself in that matter is greatly inhibiting my scum hunting abilities and very likely to lead to my failure to comply. I will say one more thing I have observed today about Varsoon and it's the last nail in the coffin convincing me that I had it backwards and Varsoon is really the scum.

I find Varsoon's response disingenuous. He says he'll go along with your request but later tells Flench not to worry about posting too much. That tells me a) thinks your request is dumb like I do or b) he's buddying to Flench. If it's a) well he should have the balls to say it and get bitched at by a confirmed town. If it's b) buddying is scummy.

Varsoon is right that posts are good and should be encouraged, unless they have no content. That's what he should have said to Paschendale at the start.

I do think we should lynch between Saki/Varsoon and my vote will reflect that.

Beyond this, I will post only if someone asks me a direct question (and corresponding clarification) regarding Saki/Varsoon or if I am commenting on the lurkers for 24 hours. I do not agree with lynching outside of Saki/Varsoon but I can see where we would want to get the lurkers involved in the game.

Vote: Varsoon

[Titus]

**muddy as possible = muddy as required

[CherryDrPepper]

@Titus: Well here's your first question, has Varsoon's scummyness lifted your scumread on Saki towards Town or do you still think Saki is scum, by this i mean, since you say "Varsoon is the scum of the 2" do you think there's no possibilities both are scum or scum+sk?

-Sakura Hana

[Titus]

@Saki, not exactly. Saki may be town but it's his own behavior reads genuinely as newbietown like he purports to be. He FoSes everyone who FoSes him which is newbie of some sort. He also seems to have the appropriate reaction of a newbie when called scum after he's claimed roleblocked. Saki struggles to make his points clear, but there's a good possibility Saki's town in his own right.

Varsoon reminded me of the geniuneness of Saki's emotions by being over the top fake.

There is the possibility both are scum but I'd say Saki's sufficiently moved into a middle ground territory. I'd use scum as the generic covering if there's an sk or not.

[Titus]

**That last response was directed at Sakura not Saki.

[CherryDrPepper]

Here's your next question, you mention he has the appropiate reactions of a newbie, yet you were saying he was scum way earlier until now in which point you say Varsoon's probably the scummy one. Any reason that you noticed these now and not before?

-Sakura Hana

[Varsoon]

@Tunnel: How so? Being able to actively track where everyone has everyone else is helpful for town, because it allows town to see inconsistencies with greater clarity. If Scum is going to manipulate reads across time, it'll be obvious.

@Titus: Buddying is null. Furthermore, I'd like to encourage Flench to post more because I think he's got a solid town voice and more content from him makes reading him easier and provides a lot for town to work on.
I don't find your case on me to be awfully compelling. It relies on a few things, which seem to be
Either Saki or Varsoon is scum.
and
Varsoon feels disingenuous/buddying.

The first is highly informed by two PR claims, which are both exclusive information that you can not verify unless the player's role is revealed by the mod. If Saki's interaction with me is informing point A, you need to be more overt about that, and build your case there, using direct post numbers/quotes for evidence. Otherwise, I can't really take you seriously.

Onto the second point. I've been actively playing a buddying/VI role hoping that someone would try to build a case on me due to those approaches. Buddying isn't scummy by nature--if anything, town wants some solidarity as well. In fact, a strong town-bloc is hard for scum to beat. Furthermore, scum-buddying backfires quite hard when scum is lynched. Ergo, I don't find buddying to be scummy, but I am aware that others might try to exploit it as so. There's been several times in the game that I've openly applauded town efforts from other players and done things to earn 'town points'. To players who play on the second-level-of-perception, this is scummy, since they see scum as people trying to curry town favor. However, I'm playing on a third-level, which is Town seeming scummy to second-level players in an attempt to find scum who are second-level who would exploit that.

The fact that I've put a vote on you and you've fallen for this trap, making a weak case that exploits exactly the info I put on the table for scum to exploit, makes you 25% scummier to me. This puts you at 85% scumminess, which, for me, is a hard scum-read.

Anyways,

Vote: Titus

This post probably won't make sense to anyone but myself and maybe Kubo.

[Paschendale]

Vote: Vote Me

48 hours from now, I want him to either offer some solid reads, or be dead. Tunnel and Glass are in the same boat. I want more from Jmo and Stubbs, too.

I feel okay about Dyslexicon.

[TunnelVision]

VOTE: Varsoon

1) Contradicting yourself multiple times (you're a walking talking paradox)
2) Playing like you don't know about the game setup (comment about jailer role) but you counter claimed Saki's RB claim. Lie to me and tell me you didn't check the game setup before you counter claimed?
3) Subtly trying to throw me off you by mis-representing in 660
4) I feel pretty confident that Saki is town
5) Dominating the conversation (lots of posts), I don't see any real scum hunting. You've got a back door open to exit every argument that you seem to talk yourself into/out of.
6) Buddying, non game related content, conversational "let's be pals" tone.
7) Your attention seeking response to the suggestion of a Mason role, does not compute. Even if I believe your explanation 100%, I think you were setting yourself up for a role claim very early in the day phase. Action + town motivation don't match here.
8) Counter claiming against Saki should've been a fire and brimstone show. You were weak and left yourself a back door to escape, but you stated that you were claiming RB because somebody else claimed your role. Your action + town motivation don't match here.
9)

PYSCHOBABBLE ALERT

.... This gem:

Well, because I am Roleblocker.

Plus:

Well, it's not a matter of lying to town. My Role PM says that I am a roleblocker.
Is it possible we're both Roleblockers?

Bold faced lying is tough. It's much easier to say, "I am roleblocker" than to say, "I am Town Roleblocker"... if you're mafia and lying about it. It's psychobabbleanalysis, but it's obvious. You did like 3 or 4 times. Then, this:

So, if we're both town roleblockers, you eliminate a huge part of town's PR's with lynches?
Sounds like a bad plan.

See how you specify town roleblockers in this post? You didn't before that point. But in this post, you're

speculating

"

If

we are both town roleblockers" instead of

stating

"I am a town roleblocker." Big difference psychologically. You failed the test. Write a "Meta Note" to yourself for next time, lie bolder.

Check out Saki's roleclaim:

I am the Town Roleblocker.

Saki's responses, tone, choice of words, reactions... all jive with the profile we've witnessed from his play. His roleclaim? Bold and pure.

In one of those quotes above you also openly suggest that there is a possibility of another roleblocker. But see my point #2 (game setup ignorance) and point #1 (contradiction.)

10) You've played enough mafia, you're not a noob, so you lose the noob defense for the shenanigans.
11) You've been so cognizant of your meta, mentioning the difference between this and that, but refuting the usefulness of meta. Here's what really threw me... you set yourself up to play like your Village Idiot town game as mafia:

Nacho once said my smoking-gun scum meta is playing a really safe and hardcore, methodical town while, as town, I play Village Idiot.

It gives you the ability to play like a town rube, and write it off as your typical town game, while masking your scumball role. (preview edit, lulz)
12) You're trying to follow somebody else into hanging Saki. You did it with me in 614. You did it with somebody else when they put pressure on Saki. I'll dig it out.
13) You did some fear-mongering about mislynching a town power role.

I have more, but these are the most compelling IMO.

-1-

[Titus]

@Varsoon, I was making my opinion, I wasn't intending to build a case. The whole point is that Paschendale was sick of us arguing against each other. It wasn't that we hadn't said enough supporting our positions. I wasn't building a case, otherwise I would have included every instance of being fake and buddying that I've ever seen.

Buddying is scummy by nature if you shouldn't have logical confirmed knowledge the player is town. Also, buddying is not a trap. That's ridiculous. Like you said, players on the "second level" would think you were scummy. I'm not even sure what the second level is.

Really, I suppose you have objective this behavior = %scum. You shouldn't and I highly doubt you do. That's ridiculous. A lot is context dependent.

[Varsoon]

@Tunnel: I could do a point-by-point refutation, but it'd get us nowhere. There's a couple holes in your argument, but the one that really peeves me is that you don't think people can be friends. That's just lame.
Big yawn on your #9, because the 'if we are both town roleblockers' is entertaining the idea of Saki being a town role-blocker as well, rather than if modifying the truthiness of my town-hood. Big difference psychologically. You failed the test. Write a "Meta Note" to yourself for next time, person-who-wants-to-read-people-like-they're-scum-so-he-bullshits-arguments-like-this-one.


@Titus: The level above the first and below the third. People usually use stairs to get there.

[Varsoon]

Essentially, I think Tunnel's on the second level.
Which is why his entire list of points relies on second-level logic.

[CherryDrPepper]

From TV's post:
TunnelVision null -> Town
Titus Scum -> Leaning scum
Varsoon Null -> Leaning scum
The difference between Titus and Varsoon is still not enough to make me switch votes tho...
Those are nice points that TV caught there, i'm quite happy to have a strong player in here. Also i've researched a bit on newbtown and newbscum behavior, and I have a feeling I made a mistake with Saki early game when he had a paranoia for hydras... According to my research that's something natural for newbtown, so
Saki Null -> Town.

@Varsoon: Are you dismissing TV's points because they are targetting you? You didn't seem to dismiss the points towards Titus before which were weaker.

-Sakura Hana

[Varsoon]

@Cherry: I'm kind'a worn out with refuting points. I made a post earlier where my VI/buddying plays were done consciously so that people would read me as scum. Tunnel just made a case solely off of those points, so, eh, it's really him falling for what I set up. I'd be willing to put a vote on Tunnel because of this poor play/especially opportunistic voting in light of the Titus vote on me, but, really, I'm more sure of Titus being scum. Furthermore, I promised Saki I wouldn't budge my vote unless there came a really good case for Titus being town. There hasn't been.
If you -want- me to do a point-by-point, deft refutation of TV's points, I will.

[Titus]

@Cherry/Varsoon - This is exactly what Paschendale did not want y'all. Let's leave it where it is.