Open 512: See Nine Plus Plus (Game Ovah)

[Saki]

Welp, Titus.

You've said Varsoon is too scummy to be scum.
Why aren't you too town to be town? 'cause nerbody in this thread tries harder than you to look town.

[Does Bo Know]

Votecount 1.25

[L-6] Saki - Titus
[L-6] CherryDrPepper - Dyslexicon
[L-6] Titus - Saki
[L-6] jmo16mla - StubbsKVM
[L-6] Varsoon - jmo16mla

Not Voting: TunnelVision, Vote Me, CherryDrPepper, Paschendale, Glass, oriole, Flench, Varsoon

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch!

Deadline is Friday, August 2nd, 2013 at 7:30 PM CST ((expired on 2013-08-02 19:30:00)).

---

[Titus]

You could have corrected that assumption, the numerous times I've relied on that. I've said you wanted to claim for pages now. Here's where you now claim that's never what you intended. Plus, why did you feel the need to self-vote yourself to get in the position to claim Saki?

@CherryPepper, I'm genuinely suspicious of claims that I feel that people want to make. I wasn't certain Saki was scum and I'm still not. I'm not going to just go, he claimed PR so he's innocent. I'll push until I'm confident either way.

I'm out for awhile

[Saki]

You could have corrected that assumption, the numerous times I've relied on that. I've said you wanted to claim for pages now. Here's where you now claim that's never what you intended. Plus, why did you feel the need to self-vote yourself to get in the position to claim Saki?

@CherryPepper, I'm genuinely suspicious of claims that I feel that people want to make. I wasn't certain Saki was scum and I'm still not. I'm not going to just go, he claimed PR so he's innocent. I'll push until I'm confident either way.

I'm out for awhile

Didn't notice because I think all your posts are bullshit.

I genuinely thought one

had

to claim at L-1.

[Titus]

@Saki, I've always said that I felt Varsoon had a plan with his scuminess. If you can see/show there's no logical plan behind Varsoon's behavior, I'd be totally fine with lynching Varsoon. I just find you to be the scummier of the two. I'm not going to just ignore everything you say due to my opinion that you're scummy because I could indeed be wrong.

[Saki]

@Saki, I've always said that I felt Varsoon had a plan with his scuminess. If you can see/show there's no logical plan behind Varsoon's behavior, I'd be totally fine with lynching Varsoon. I just find you to be the scummier of the two. I'm not going to just ignore everything you say due to my opinion that you're scummy because I could indeed be wrong.

You haven't expressed "I'm okay with lynching Varsoon" at all by chainsawing.
Why defend him if you're okay with lynching him?

Also aren't you going to take another stab at Varsoon's plan 'cause you were wrong both times now?

You've had a history of not reading my posts/misrepping me. "I'm not going to just ignore everything you say" mhmm.

"I could indeed be wrong." You're

still

not sure that I'm scum? Then why not sit back and wait instead of continuing to tunnel?

[TunnelVision]

Saki, actions speak louder than words. You wanted to claim, whether you said it or not. Except, you did say it. Now it's a mis-rep, fine. You still wanted to claim and you didn't try alternate routes. Explain why you wanted to claim?

Just like Varsoon needs to explain why he wanted attention. He turned something into nothing for no reason. When NoVote said "I'm never voting Varsoon", and Titus picked up on "The something that actually wasn't there"... Varsoon fed the notion. For no reason. None. No logic behind it.

I need answers to these questions, and neither of you have them. That's why I'm entertaining the notion that you are both scum.

-1-

[Saki]

@TV
I have denied 'wanting to claim' every single time anyone that questioned me about it. You still think I wanted to claim? Stop.

Explanation.

@TunnelVision

What.

Keep your damn temper under control and actually scumhunt plz. kthx

In your opinion, what CoA should I have taken to avoid getting lynched D1?

It was going to happen. If I hadn't claimed you would've returned to a PR strung up and one very frustrated Saki.

I wasn't begging for votes, I simply said I'd self-vote and claim once another vote was on me. My reasoning behind it being that I was a PR and I would self-vote while claiming, opening myself up to scum quickhammer at L-1 (netting easy scum #1) but again at the same time keeping the ability to unvote as I don't want to die.

And I seriously thought that it would be scummy to claim before L-1. I've never actually had a game where someone claimed before L-1.


and yes I'm serious about all that.

TL;DR I was going to get lynched anyways might as well take down scum with me.

"Why the hell, then, Saki, would you think that you were going to get lynched?" I'm sure this is what you're getting at TV
Flench afk vote really unnerved me
also the pasche vote, like what the hell did I do.
CherryDP pushing me so hard
Varsoon and Titus pushing me even harder

everyone else not even in the thread. Yes I did think my lynch was inevitable unless I claimed.

Answer question in bold please.

[Saki]

I also think you're scum now.
What do you make of that. Wanna hear the case?

[Saki]

I also think you're scum now.
What do you make of that. Wanna hear the case?

Posting it anyways.

Come back from afk with an outrageous idea that noone would possibly entertain.

Then start slinging shit at me 'cause people still like me for scum.

Then switch over to Varsoon after people start making it clear some of them would like to lynch between the RBs.

Now you're deathtunneling me and Varsoon.

I have no reason to believe there is even a shred of town motivation in there.

[Varsoon]

@tunnel: Funny that you came into the thread looking to exploit a lynch. Anywaaaay.
I originally wanted attention so I would come off as VI and wouldn't be a lynch target or NK.
Earlier, in-thread, I explained why explaining my methods would be pro-scum.
Admitting to town what I'm up to equates to admitting to scum as to what I'm up to.
So, yeah, if I don't live through the night, it's due to belligerent rubes like you.

[oriole]

Coming up- an ISO dive on interactions between Titus and Varsoon. Made a bit more complicated when Varsoon came up 119 times in Titus's ISO.

[Saki]

@tunnel: Funny that you came into the thread looking to exploit a lynch. Anywaaaay.
I originally wanted attention so I would come off as VI and wouldn't be a lynch target or NK.
Earlier, in-thread, I explained why explaining my methods would be pro-scum.
Admitting to town what I'm up to equates to admitting to scum as to what I'm up to.
So, yeah, if I don't live through the night, it's due to belligerent rubes like you.

You actually agree with me on something. That's weird.

[TunnelVision]

TL;DR I was going to get lynched anyways might as well take down scum with me.

First: How does claiming assist with taking down scum? It doesn't.

Second: I get that you didn't want to get lynched, but you weren't doing it to avoid lynch... You WANTED to claim. Why? What is the motivation for wanting to claim so bad? You couldve brought your a game, made a case against a scum all, lobbied for more time before lynch (we have lots of days before dayphase deadline. You had options that you didn't exhaust... You WANTED to claim.

-1-

Answer to question in bold above. Second paragraph. I already answered it. You fight. You look for scum. You buy time. You appeal to logic and reason. You say "Lynch me later, let's keep looking for scum for a bit since we have x days until deadline." You avoid telling everybody that you are a powerful special butterfly. You do everything you can. Instead... You did the opposite.

Ill death tunnel you both until you answer my questions. Whether you admit it or not, secretly or openly, deep down or just top of mind... You wanted to claim. That's fine. It's okay. Having a power role is cool and exciting. You were like Ron Burgundy without a camera and a newsroom... Just a message board. You were so excited about banging Veronica Corningstone that you couldn't wait to tell the whole world. It's okay. Tell us why.

[Saki]

TL;DR I was going to get lynched anyways might as well take down scum with me.

First: How does claiming assist with taking down scum? It doesn't.

Second: I get that you didn't want to get lynched, but you weren't doing it to avoid lynch... You WANTED to claim. Why? What is the motivation for wanting to claim so bad? You couldve brought your a game, made a case against a scum all, lobbied for more time before lynch (we have lots of days before dayphase deadline. You had options that you didn't exhaust... You WANTED to claim.

-1-

Answer to question in bold above. Second paragraph. I already answered it. You fight. You look for scum. You buy time. You appeal to logic and reason. You say "Lynch me later, let's keep looking for scum for a bit since we have x days until deadline." You avoid telling everybody that you are a powerful special butterfly. You do everything you can. Instead... You did the opposite.

Ill death tunnel you both until you answer my questions. Whether you admit it or not, secretly or openly, deep down or just top of mind... You wanted to claim. That's fine. It's okay. Having a power role is cool and exciting. You were like Ron Burgundy without a camera and a newsroom... Just a message board. You were so excited about banging Veronica Corningstone that you couldn't wait to tell the whole world. It's okay. Tell us why.

Attribute it to my mistake and inexperience then I have no idea how to explain it further because I thought I made everything clear in 582.

[Saki]

I also don't get that humorous (and/or derogatory) reference.

Try not to do that anymore it makes your posts harder to read.

[Saki]

Coming up- an ISO dive on interactions between Titus and Varsoon. Made a bit more complicated when Varsoon came up 119 times in Titus's ISO.

At least someone is starting to suspect Titus (other than Cherry).

[TunnelVision]

@tunnel: Funny that you came into the thread looking to exploit a lynch. Anywaaaay.
I originally wanted attention so I would come off as VI and wouldn't be a lynch target or NK.
Earlier, in-thread, I explained why explaining my methods would be pro-scum.
Admitting to town what I'm up to equates to admitting to scum as to what I'm up to.
So, yeah, if I don't live through the night, it's due to belligerent rubes like you.

Hey man, don't misrepresent me. I don't tolerate that stuff. I'm not here to lynch either of you. I don't have a vote on either of you, nor am I crying to string up one of you over the other. Nice try to discredit me subtly though. Better luck next time.

I'm here because I want answers. I want to sort through this clusterbomb. There are gaping holes in both of your stories. Something doesn't add up. I'm pointing right at it, and you either can't see it or are trying to hide it.

You failed to answer my question in a way that satisfies my curiosity. Your answer fails the logic test, watch...

If you are being honest, and are the roleblocker: your drawing attention to yourself actually makes you a target for NK. It does not assist you in flying under the radar. You played directly into an opportunity to draw attention willingly and openly. You didn't even question NoVote's statement about never voting for you... Instead you took it and grabbed the spotlight with it. You could've said "What the hell are you talking about." instead you said, "Shhh, I'm important but I wouldnt have been so overt about it."

Logic fail. Answer fail.

-1-

[TunnelVision]

I also don't get that humorous (and/or derogatory) reference.

Try not to do that anymore it makes your posts harder to read.

My bad. Anchorman reference. I wasn't trying to be derogatory, just humorous.

Either way, I'm sorry.

[oriole]

The whole supposed Varsoon/Titus buddying bothered me, so I pulled this, Saki.

Spoiler: Varsoon, on Titus

Anyway, as far as the current game-state goes, it feels like the tension between Saki, Titus, and Cherry is scum-involved. I'm not used to seeing town vs town crossvote so early, so I'm pretty convinced there's a bad apple there. The only problem is that I can't deduce much with the info given. I'm willing to say that Titus is the scum, though. He's been making really careful plays and working hard to look town, but it feels a bit artificial--like he's trying to earn towncred way too early with the questions posed so far. /shrug. Glass is soundly town so far and Cherry is iffy for me. Was reading the slot as town but seems scummier as of recent.

Titus - Town. (Engages with different players, isn't engaged in distracting meta-malarky, is to-the-point and pro-town about info gathering)

@Titus: You might be playing too town for me not to be paranoid of you.

Titus is going to get out of this one because he's town, Saki. It'd be nice if you could build a case on him, rather than a spat.

Yeah, he's defending me because he's convinced I'm town. I can soft-confirm this because I'm convinced he's town.

Would you be happy with a titus-mislynch, Saki?

Well, shit, if Titus is scum, why is there only one vote on

him

P:EDIT: her?

Vote: Titus

(Sorry if I confuse genders on people. It's nothing personal, yo.)

Titus is town.

Unvote

I'll wait until there's more than 4 people posting before I get back to it. I still think Saki's likely scum, but not as much as I did earlier in the day.

The interactions my vote-swap and your posts got out of Titus was enough for me to put him in the town pool.

Unvote

I need time to look at the thread more. Titus is really suspect, but I think he's town. Saki's a believable town who I think is scum. Dunno what to go with.

@Dys: Feels like Saki's more newbtown playing defensive then scum manipulating people. Feels like Titus might be manipulating me. Sitting back to see what they have to say.
334 is me entertaining a town-Saki.

Spoiler: Titus, on Varsoon

Varsoon worries me for another reason, because he's sent the group looking for meta (not my strong point, because I value it so little). If his comments are right about his role being obvious to anyone who has played with him extensively, then perhaps maybe someone who plays with Vasson extensively can just answer the question without looking through the meta?

He tells us there's confirmation of his role in meta. Then he applauds me for not using meta. Then, he claims the whole thing is a way of causing trouble for relying on meta. That doesn't make sense at all, especially within 10 posts of each other.

I am agreeing with all the suspicion towards Varsoon right now. However, I think there's a possibility Varsoon is trying to draw a bit of scum attention to himself deliberately. I'd explain why, but that would totally ruin what he's trying to do. The hints are there suggesting why Varsoon is doing this. If only town figures this out, the better we are though. Otherwise, we can be near certain that Varsoon will die tonight.

I also do not like a meta based argument, but I always hear everything out. What is Saki's town meta and why is this different?

I do think Varsoon should have his eye kept on in case I am wrong but I think he's town.

Varsoon has pulled a lot of "OMG obv scum" moves right off the bat. Why? This is either ridiculously poor scum play or town trying to draw attention. I think I know why Varsoon is doing that. If I'm right, it might backfire... hard, because the play is too obvious.

@Oriole, The difference between Varsoon is Varsoon is seeking the attention. Saki is not. Varsoon has been deliberate in his actions and the behaviors we see as scummy. Saki's behaviors feel more like slips and forcing scum reads. There's a difference between actively drawing attention and suspicion onto yourself and scum play. Varsoon's seems to be the former. Saki's appears to be the latter.

I've been pretty clear that I've always thought Varsoon as town. So yeah, I trust my town read over my scum read.

I never explicitly said Varsoon was town. I kinda hint in this post that I suspected that Varsoon was a PR.

Titus: I got a question for you, you say that Varsoon has been acting scummy in order to attract scum attention towards him for being a PR, but why aren't you saying the same thing about Saki?

P-Edit: Varsoon: If you must, you should breadcrumb it somehow, not say it openly. I also agree that is a good idea to make it public.

Apparently, this has not been clear the other times I have answered this. Saki's scummy behavior has always been a response to pressure and doesn't seem to be part of an overarching plan. Saki seemed to be tunnelling you when you were pressuring Saki hard. Now that I am, I am scum. Varsoon has questioned and legitimately scum hunted. He's asking intelligent questions designed to get answers that will benefit town in the long run. Saki's posts seem to be more defensive and all about laying the groundwork that he's town rather than scum hunting. Saki's planting seeds that appear to be defensive. For instance, the claim that the Varsoon vote was just to look for your reaction. Varsoon's seem to be more systemic and planned out such as the meta inconsistencies when no one was really pressuring him, answering town points questions, etc.

Which claim do your head(s) believe is more genuine? Why? Do you believe any possibility that both are town or both are scum?

Yeah, he's defending me because he's convinced I'm town. I can soft-confirm this because I'm convinced he's town.

Would you be happy with a titus-mislynch, Saki?

I'm saying that's buddying, clearly.

He's scum, dammit. Don't threaten me.

Wow. The five year old defense. Works wonders. Nothing in that post looked threatening at all.

I'm pretty certain Varsoon is town and your behavior makes no sense at all.

I always considered that Varsoon acting scummy on the surface was his plan to survive the night as a PR. What I'm perceiving from him is wholly inconsistent with Vanilla Townie play.

I agree and have been saying everything you've been saying here, Dys. There's about a 1-3% chance that there are three Bs in the setup (required for two full roleblockers). I happen to think it's more likely Saki is scum rather than Varsoon due to the behavior, yet I'm far from certain on it.

The odd behavior from jmo makes me think he's Saki's scum partner. I'm not sure where that leaves Flench though because I like him for being scum too.

Varsoon, not manipulating you. In fact, I don't 100% trust you although it's much more likely you are town than Saki. What do you feel I am manipulating you about?

I'd say let's split the difference and look at some other suspects but carefully watch Varsoon and Saki's analysis. If either of them act scummy in their readings (separate from the claims) we should lynch them.

Tunnel, your large post before I said that showed me that you had been reading the entire thread and coming to the same conclusions as me independently regarding Varsoon's behavior and the possible situation there. The odds of someone scummy magically comprehending the same posts as I did for the same reasons but articulating that in their own words that didn't indicate a sheep. That's pretty town to me.

I'd like you to elaborate more on the possible scumVarsoon.

@Saki, I've always said that I felt Varsoon had a plan with his scuminess. If you can see/show there's no logical plan behind Varsoon's behavior, I'd be totally fine with lynching Varsoon. I just find you to be the scummier of the two. I'm not going to just ignore everything you say due to my opinion that you're scummy because I could indeed be wrong.

Now, I could make a comment after each of the posts hidden behind a spoiler wall, but approximately nobody will read that, so I'll just present what I found.

Varsoon's first stated read says that Titus may be scum, but pretty quickly this shifts to a townread, maintained through 476. In 480, Varsoon votes Titus, but calls Titus town again in an unvote in 513. There's some creeping paranoia that's appeared recently, (604 and 609), and this paranoia was actually sort of foreshadowed in 280.

Titus maintains early that Varsoon should be kept an eye on, mostly over some conflicting posts over meta explained away as a joke of sorts by Varsoon. She then continuously drops heavy hints that she thinks Varsoon is a town power role long before Varsoon claims (see 198, 241, and 262). She heavily defends Varsoon, until recently (noticing a trend?) where she starts to entertain ideas and ask others to elaborate on scum!Varsoon ideas, with posts such as 617 and 654.

Looking through the interactions, some conclusions...
a) I don't think they're scum together, seeing as how they've turned on each other a bit recently.
b) Titus was rather blatant on hinting that she thought Varsoon was a PR, but then again Varsoon was pretty blatant at hinting he was a PR.
c) I would pick Titus over Varsoon for scum atm. I think her posts come closer to buddying then Varsoon's, and I'm not a fan of the all of a sudden "of course, I could be wrong let's keep an eye on Varsoon" turn by Titus.

[Saki]

I just realized we made 300 posts in the period of 24 hours.

[Varsoon]

@Tunnel: Cool, let's continue to misrep each other. Anyway, if you think someone is scummy, vote them.

If you want to actually ask me questions, do so directly and bolded. If there's holes in my play, point them out directly besides saying "obvious holes", etc.


@Oriole: I'm hesitant to support a Titus/Saki lynch right now, since I'm growing more and more convinced that this is a townvtown conflict. Now, to confirm we're both Roleblockers, we could let Saki and I live to the night and then we could target each other. Of course, this doesn't account for jailers/other similar roles.

@Saki: Welcome to a Varsoon game. I've been in two record-winning games for most posts in D1.

[Saki]

I just realized we made 300 posts in the period of 24 hours.

It's going to be

soo

hard to catch up and most of it is chaos created by me.

Damn I feel guilty.

[oriole]

@Oriole: I'm hesitant to support a Titus/Saki lynch right now, since I'm growing more and more convinced that this is a townvtown conflict. Now, to confirm we're both Roleblockers, we could let Saki and I live to the night and then we could target each other. Of course, this doesn't account for jailers/other similar roles.

Would this work?

[Saki]

Whatever anyone says I am not role-blocking Titus or Varsoon