Newbie 1368 - Will there ever be a title? (GAME OVER)

[Crandaja]

This and the ridiculous yes vs. yep paint you as a scum.

Since shaboostein is being replaced, and this really rubbed me the wrong way:

VOTE: Crandaja

Will respond to your more post more in depth later today, even though we're mostly going in circles.

Talk about OMGUS...

[Grimgroove]

You don't think that that ^ will fool anyone who read this topic, do you?

[LnGrrrR]

Grim, I think the yes vs yep argument was pretty weak too, but it was coming soon after RVS and it was an attempt to generate discussion/content, which is why I don't see it as that scummy. If you had pulled that argument now that we have decent data to go through I would've found it much worse.

[Grimgroove]

I never claimed it to be a strong argument. Even though I still stand behind my view that there is a difference between yes and yup, there is no way in hell this difference would constitute a scumtell or anything resembling it.

I find it very telling that Crandaja has to refer to the weakness of the argument while knowing very well what it was meant to do. The topic has been discussed widely before, just like everything else he posted in an effort to attack me. Instead of responding to arguments in an A-B-C-D manner, every discussion with him becomes A-B-A-B... He's definitely being anti-town by his tunnel, both in content and in target. And he can say it's not OMGUS all he wants, but pretty much his entire case revolves around me trying to pinch him with a scumslip.

[Grimgroove]

Grim, I think the yes vs yep argument was pretty weak too, but it was coming soon after RVS and it was an attempt to generate discussion/content, which is why I don't see it as that scummy. If you had pulled that argument now that we have decent data to go through I would've found it much worse.

PS: This post gave me massive scumvibes. Hard to put my finger on why it does, but I'll try to elaborate later.

[Grimgroove]

My to-do list:
- Reply to Crandaja's latest
- Try to pinpoint what it is about LnGrrrR that I suddenly don't like.
- Make a reads list on everyone (IC-time)

So much to do! I guess I should be glad activity is so low here. What is it with you guys? It's even worse than before, on top of RachMarie and shaboo being their usual inactive selves, Ravenpaw seems to have decided to join them and also Syryana seems less involved than last time.

Anyway, first thing's first:

I don't like how you're being so insistant on this. This constant repetition is not going to change what I already have said about it. I have already explained what I was trying to do: find scum. I thought I saw a scumslip and acted on it. I was wrong, but as I asked Ravenpaw before (which she left unanswered): What reasonable tactic do you see behind it that is scummy? And by reasonable I mean: a tactic that has even the slightest chance of succeeding? An easy lynch? How would that even work? If Syryana hadn't found it, you yourself would still have been in the position to point out my mistake, as you already knew what you were referring to. As scum I would know for a fact that this wouldn't be a scumslip and that it would be an easily deflected attack. Then why would I do it? The fact that I actually believed in my argument is the only reason why I brought it up and thought it could have a chance of success. And how could I believe in it in the position of being scum myself?

Well you could definitely put some pressure on me. The argument that you could not have made the post if you were scum really doesn't make much sense. That early in the game it really doesn't do you much harm to be wrong (clearly) since I'm the only one that seemed bothered by your error. You wouldn't need to believe it to post it. Lying is part of this game.

Why is it a bad thing to pressure you? If you're town, pressure brings out the town in you. There's no need to be so sensitive to someone trying to pressure you.
Starting from the second sentence you're dismissing what I said with mere hollow phrases but you did not prove that my argument does not make sense. It does. I would not have used the scumtell-approach if I would know for a fact it's not true, because I'd know well enough that there'd be the theoretical possibility it would come bite me in the ass in case I did. It makes absolutely no sense to do this as scum: the risk of it flying back into my face far outweighs the supposed benefit of pressuring someone you know is town based on a false argument. If you know it's a false argument, you know the pressure is not going to ammount to anything. I didn't know it was a false argument, and therefore used it until shown otherwise.

I STILL find your RVS-vote very odd, and though my initial reason may have been wrong (scumslip referring to a QT-post), the secondary reason why it's odd (reference to a historical post ) is almost as compelling. It literally seemed to have come falling out of the sky, and also the way you explained it makes it sound like it did, but I have difficulties believing it.

Your OMGUS-tunnelling isn't making me feel very good about you. Still have to read through the topic more in depth before possibly changing my vote.

How exactly is a reference to a historical post compelling in any way? Even Candillian remembered the interaction as being one of our only ones so I don't know why this makes me scum. It seems extremely desperate to me.

It shows a lot of pre-consideration, even though you try to make it sound as if it was the first thing that popped inside your head. And in an RVS-stage, I'd say pre-consideration is fishy. If anything, I want people in RVS to act natural and carefree. Referring to posts of two weeks before shows me you've been thinking long and hard on what to post in RVS, and I don't like it.

I don't see how Candillan's remembering stuff adds anything to this discussion? Do you think he would have remembered it if you hadn't brought it up? I doubt it.

As I said before its not OMGUS. I don't care about you voting me but you made a pretty significant accusation and contradicted yourself instantly. This and the ridiculous yes vs. yep paint you as a scum.

Reacted to the last portion before, which I find ridiculous to evenb ring up again.
About me contradicting myself: Where? Please check my dialogue with Ravenpaw in case you're talking about the "anywhere". This is not a contradiction. It could be interpreted as one if you want to, but it is not. "Anywhere" is too vague a term to link any exact concepts like "contradiction" to it.

[Ravenpaw]

I don't find him scummy anymore.

Why not?

His recent posts just don't feel scummy. Like post #131 he blatantly admits to being defensive. Saying that gives me a townie lean as I see scum as being less likely to admit to that and more likely to try and pretend they're not.
His intentions seem pretty townie right now.

[Ravenpaw]

Here's the thing Candy (and others): If I were to give null reads to town comments, just because that person was scum once, then nearly every "townie" comment could be misconstrued as as a scum/null one.

What you're suggesting is that Grimgroove couldn't possibly provide any townie vibes his game, because any townie vibes could theoretically be scum vibes. I don't feel like poisoning that well.

The issue I have with it Linger is that instead of just providing your read of Grim as "oh his posts seem pretty town" you instead reached for additional reasoning that it was like last game (which was not logical because he was scum).
Why did you feel the need to justify why he was town to you with the meta reference?

[Ravenpaw]

So much to do! I guess I should be glad activity is so low here. What is it with you guys? It's even worse than before, on top of RachMarie and shaboo being their usual inactive selves, Ravenpaw seems to have decided to join them and also Syryana seems less involved than last time.

Yeah I realise I should be giving this game a lot more (as well as my others) but there's just a lot on my plate atm. Sorry.

[LnGrrrR]

The issue I have with it Linger is that instead of just providing your read of Grim as "oh his posts seem pretty town" you instead reached for additional reasoning that it was like last game (which was not logical because he was scum).
Why did you feel the need to justify why he was town to you with the meta reference?

This is a pretty blatant misrep, and you should know since you were the first to ask me.

Post 126, you ask me what my reads are on Grim and Crand. I said that Grim felt townie for me, and Crand felt a little scummy. I listed reasons why Crand felt scummy to me in hopes he would explain, which he later did.

So, in fact, I did exactly what you say that you would have expected of me. I only added clarification later when questioned by you and Candi. And the reasons for that were explained in post 168.

Do you agree or disagree with the logic in 168?

(Additionally, specifically I think that Grim is putting a good amount of discussion out there which is good for town. While I don't think his case on Crand is very compelling, I don't think it's "scummy".)

[Ravenpaw]

The issue I have with it Linger is that instead of just providing your read of Grim as "oh his posts seem pretty town" you instead reached for additional reasoning that it was like last game (which was not logical because he was scum).
Why did you feel the need to justify why he was town to you with the meta reference?

This is a pretty blatant misrep, and you should know since you were the first to ask me.

I think you misunderstand me, when I said additional reasoning/justify I was referring to the "like last time" part of your read in #128 nothing later.

Post 126, you ask me what my reads are on Grim and Crand.

I said that Grim felt townie for me,

and Crand felt a little scummy. I listed reasons why Crand felt scummy to me in hopes he would explain, which he later did.

@the bolded, you're now misrepping yourself. You said this exactly:

@Ravenpaw, just read both in ISO. Grim feels pretty town to me like last game.

So, in fact, I did exactly what you say that you would have expected of me. I only added clarification later when questioned by you and Candi. And the reasons for that were explained in post 168.

Do you agree or disagree with the logic in 168?

I agree with it, but that is not what you did earlier. You gave a read on Grim and then refer to a game that has no validity as the reason. Giving people town reads for town comments is normal, what's problematic is when you refer to a scum game for it.

(Additionally, specifically I think that Grim is putting a good amount of discussion out there which is good for town. While I don't think his case on Crand is very compelling, I don't think it's "scummy".)

This is a good read, I agree.

[LnGrrrR]

@Raven, the "last time" was a throwaway line. Grim felt townie to me last game when he wasn't, he feels townie to me this game. He might be scum, he might not, but Im not going to tr to WIFOM him as scum.

You can't act super townie as scum without consequences. By D3, people would've been wondering why our "obvtown" player somehow didnt get NK'd two nights in a row.

Besides the yep vs yes argument, which felt extremely forced and somewhat scummy, Grim has been acting in a very townie way for the reasons listed above. (I'm willing to accept Grims yes vs yep argument as non-scummy because a) I believed him when he stated he felt like there was a legitimate difference between the two; the explanation didnt feel forced even if the original "gotcha" was, and b) he pointed out last game that he started a semi-dumb conversation to get out of RVS (the "color" thing with Rach) which mirrors the forced arguments in this game early.)

[Candillan]

Grim, I think the yes vs yep argument was pretty weak too, but it was coming soon after RVS and it was an attempt to generate discussion/content, which is why I don't see it as that scummy. If you had pulled that argument now that we have decent data to go through I would've found it much worse.

PS: This post gave me massive scumvibes. Hard to put my finger on why it does, but I'll try to elaborate later.

Because it could be bussing his partner for towncred?
More posts in a minute, phoneposting is bleh.

[Candillan]

@Raven, the "last time" was a throwaway line. Grim felt townie to me last game when he wasn't, he feels townie to me this game. He might be scum, he might not, but Im not going to tr to WIFOM him as scum.

You can't act super townie as scum without consequences. By D3, people would've been wondering why our "obvtown" player somehow didnt get NK'd two nights in a row.

Besides the yep vs yes argument, which felt extremely forced and somewhat scummy, Grim has been acting in a very townie way for the reasons listed above. (I'm willing to accept Grims yes vs yep argument as non-scummy because a) I believed him when he stated he felt like there was a legitimate difference between the two; the explanation didnt feel forced even if the original "gotcha" was, and b) he pointed out last game that he started a semi-dumb conversation to get out of RVS (the "color" thing with Rach) which mirrors the forced arguments in this game early.)

So Grim could be town or scum, and you're pretty much hoping he's town with the knowledge that he could be pulling the wool over your eyes easily? Don't wifom him to scum, just don't be so quick to call him town.

What if he isn't night killed so scum can pin him as scum in LyLo? That's what scum did with me in 1335, because I could easily be pinned as scum.

Also, self meta is also dumb. Don't trust that. Especially when the game he also did it in was a scum game. >_>

[Grimgroove]

What is your read on me?

[Candillan]

What is your read on me?

Hard to say. As I've stated before, I've been having a tough time of assembling reads this game.

[LnGrrrR]

Candy, the only person I know is town is me at the moment. So anyone I call "townie" or "scum" comes with an automatic "I could be wrong but this is my best guess" caveat.

It just seems pointless to put on every comment "Grim is possibly townie but I can't be sure" when I can just type "Grim is townie". It's like saying "this water is wet".

Pedit: You imply above that Grim and I are scumbuddies, then walk it back a few posts later? This is another reason why my vote is still on you.

[LnGrrrR]

Candy, in the game where you got pegged as scum, what about you was scummy? Was it only the fact that you lived to D3 and in all other regards you were considered super townie?

[Candillan]

How am I "walking it back"? I'm saying that I don't have a good read on anyone in this game. (Aside from Homer and Syryana, of course.) All the rest of you are null, and I'm having trouble discerning which two are scum. How is that scummy?

Yes, but that doesn't address what I was saying. My point is that it's odd that you'd write him off as town so early when he's been doing the same things he did as scum. You shouldn't do that.

If you think I'm scum, who would be my partner?

Pedit:
Oh, no, it was that I was an easy wagon in that game. They kept me alive to wagon me to death in LyLo.
Similar situation, though. It was a "how come he's still alive?" situation at its fundamentals.
Also, I was town that game.

Are you really going to only suspect Grim if he gets to D3 and is still alive?

[LnGrrrR]

Candy, I never said I wouldn't consider Grim as scum if he says something that strikes me as scum. Feel free to point out where I said that.

Grim is actin townie to me, therefore, he goes in my "town" pile. If he says/ does something scummy, then I will start shifting him to my scum pile. It's not that hard to figure out.

If Grim acts super townie, but somehow doesn't get NK'd, I will start to wonder why. Your case is completely different. You WERE scummy, so mafia leaving you alive makes sense. If Grim acts townie throughout the game, its goin to be hard to generate a mislynch off of him if he isn't seen as scummy. In fact, if anything I would think an "obvtown" would be an obvious early NK. (And yes, if Grim is obvtown and lives to D3, there's a bit of WIFOM in determining the reason behind it, but I will worry about D3 when we get there.)

You definitely implied in post 187 that Grim and I were scum. If you don't want others to question your town/null/scum tells, don't imply scumminess.

[LnGrrrR]

EBWODP: Re the "who is my partner" question, I have no idea. I am not going to bother looking heavily at those sorts of interactions until we get a flip.

[Candillan]

You definitely implied in post 187 that Grim and I were scum. If you don't want others to question your town/null/scum tells, don't imply scumminess.

lolnope
I was saying that //you// were bussing //your// partner for towncred. (Crand) Nice take on it saying that Grim was bussing you, though.
Either way, I was saying that might be Grim's reason for finding that scummy, not my thoughts.
I'll respond to the other stuff in a sec.

[Candillan]

EBWODP: Re the "who is my partner" question, I have no idea. I am not going to bother looking heavily at those sorts of interactions until we get a flip.

Well, if you see me as scummy, you must be looking at who I'm interacting with. That's how you would find my buddy.

Candy, I never said I wouldn't consider Grim as scum if he says something that strikes me as scum. Feel free to point out where I said that.

Grim is actin townie to me, therefore, he goes in my "town" pile. If he says/ does something scummy, then I will start shifting him to my scum pile. It's not that hard to figure out.

If Grim acts super townie, but somehow doesn't get NK'd, I will start to wonder why. Your case is completely different. You WERE scummy, so mafia leaving you alive makes sense. If Grim acts townie throughout the game, its goin to be hard to generate a mislynch off of him if he isn't seen as scummy. In fact, if anything I would think an "obvtown" would be an obvious early NK. (And yes, if Grim is obvtown and lives to D3, there's a bit of WIFOM in determining the reason behind it, but I will worry about D3 when we get there.)

Yes, but the reason you're seeing him as town is because he's doing things that seem townie. But,

he did the same thing as scum.

For you to base your townread on him from something that he did when he was scum doesn't make any sense, even if it was a townie thing he did.

[Syryana]

SO MANY WALLS, I MAKE MOAR

As I said before its not OMGUS. I don't care about you voting me but you made a pretty significant accusation and contradicted yourself instantly. This and the ridiculous yes vs. yep paint you as a scum.

Can you link where Grim is contradicting himself? Also, why does the yes vs. yep argument indicate Grim is scum?

Candillan, Crandaja, Ravenpaw are in my top 3 scumreads. I'm planning to give a full reads list (probably tomorrow) of every player here to clarify this. Need to IC some more people.

I assume you mean ISO, not IC? I will be interested to see your cases.

This and the ridiculous yes vs. yep paint you as a scum.

Since shaboostein is being replaced, and this really rubbed me the wrong way:

Shaboostein is not being replaced yet, I don't think? What rubbed you the wrong way about Crand's post?

Grim, I think the yes vs yep argument was pretty weak too, but it was coming soon after RVS and it was an attempt to generate discussion/content, which is why I don't see it as that scummy. If you had pulled that argument now that we have decent data to go through I would've found it much worse.

You, I like you.

PS: This post gave me massive scumvibes. Hard to put my finger on why it does, but I'll try to elaborate later.

Do elaborate. I liked that post.

So much to do! I guess I should be glad activity is so low here. What is it with you guys? It's even worse than before, on top of RachMarie and shaboo being their usual inactive selves, Ravenpaw seems to have decided to join them and also Syryana seems less involved than last time.

What conclusions do you make about the lack of activity from myself and Raven?

Why is it a bad thing to pressure you? If you're town, pressure brings out the town in you. There's no need to be so sensitive to someone trying to pressure you.
Starting from the second sentence you're dismissing what I said with mere hollow phrases but you did not prove that my argument does not make sense. It does. I would not have used the scumtell-approach if I would know for a fact it's not true, because I'd know well enough that there'd be the theoretical possibility it would come bite me in the ass in case I did. It makes absolutely no sense to do this as scum: the risk of it flying back into my face far outweighs the supposed benefit of pressuring someone you know is town based on a false argument. If you know it's a false argument, you know the pressure is not going to ammount to anything. I didn't know it was a false argument, and therefore used it until shown otherwise.

There is a scumslip in here. Town points to whomever finds it!

So much to do! I guess I should be glad activity is so low here. What is it with you guys? It's even worse than before, on top of RachMarie and shaboo being their usual inactive selves, Ravenpaw seems to have decided to join them and also Syryana seems less involved than last time.

Yeah I realise I should be giving this game a lot more (as well as my others) but there's just a lot on my plate atm. Sorry.

What do you think of Candillan?

So Grim could be town or scum, and you're pretty much hoping he's town with the knowledge that he could be pulling the wool over your eyes easily? Don't wifom him to scum, just don't be so quick to call him town.

What if he isn't night killed so scum can pin him as scum in LyLo? That's what scum did with me in 1335, because I could easily be pinned as scum.

Also, self meta is also dumb. Don't trust that. Especially when the game he also did it in was a scum game. >_>

You need to not WIFOM too. And self meta is dumb, yes (I personally think it's scummy, which is why I threw a fit about it last game)

What is your read on me?

Hard to say. As I've stated before, I've been having a tough time of assembling reads this game.

Why?

How am I "walking it back"? I'm saying that I don't have a good read on anyone in this game. (Aside from Homer and Syryana, of course.) All the rest of you are null, and I'm having trouble discerning which two are scum. How is that scummy?

Yes, but that doesn't address what I was saying. My point is that it's odd that you'd write him off as town so early when he's been doing the same things he did as scum. You shouldn't do that.

If you think I'm scum, who would be my partner?

Pedit:
Oh, no, it was that I was an easy wagon in that game. They kept me alive to wagon me to death in LyLo.
Similar situation, though. It was a "how come he's still alive?" situation at its fundamentals.
Also, I was town that game.

Are you really going to only suspect Grim if he gets to D3 and is still alive?

There's a scumslip in here too.

LET THE NEWBIE 1368 SCUMSLIP SCAVENGER HUNT BEGIN!
VOTE: Candillan

[Candillan]

Oh, I know what you're talking about. The "I was town that game".
I was letting him know that I was town in 1335, to give him perspective. Would it have been different if I had said "I was town that game, too."?

Funny call on Grim, I missed it.

I am town, Syryana. What are the odds of me/Grim being scum together twice in a row?
1. I personally don't find our interactions suspicious.
2. Those odds are extremely low.
3. I'm still town.

Why have I been having trouble producing reads this game? It's because I'm trying to look at interactions, and I'm seeing too many potential scumteams to be healthy.

Why did you vote me on the "slip", but not Grim?
Why do you like LnGrrrR? All I see in that post where you said you liked him is him subtly buddying you.

If you see self-meta as dumb, why didn't you pressure Grim on that?

UNVOTE:
Forgot I was still voting Shaboo. I think he's being replaced, as he hasn't posted yet. He also has posted in other games, though~

If I was to make a reads list at the moment, it would look like this:

TOWN
Syryana/Homer
Raven
LnGrrrR/Crand/Grim
SCUM

Shaboo and Rach haven't posted nearly enough for me to get a read on them.