Xenoblade Mafia (Game Over)

[²]

and buldey left out a huge response to the middle of his catch up yesterday, things I would think that he would respond to

I did leave it out, and I was going to respond to it,

but f said she already pressured you on gchat

so I figured I'd leave it be. I already pointed out what stood out to me.

- b

wat

What about it?

- b

[²]

In case I wasn't clear enough, I'm asking player-wise.
You know. Like "who did what so he's suspicious." Kind of stuff.

Ok. Let's go.

²: If it's ok, I'm going to read ² as one person and not two separate people. Same goes for Beast. ² is scum to me because he reads TD as scum with little to no base and seems to be ignoring TD's more towny posts.
Aj The Epic: Null-Scum. I perceive AtE in #945 but that's pretty much it.
Andrius: Null, lack of posts.
BeautyAndTheBeast: Town. Reading well and catching things and no scumreads as of yet.
BROseidon: No reads as of yet.
Cabd: Null-Scum, mainly for not specifying reads in #931.
dntfkingcare: Null, lack of posts.
Ghostlin: After an ISO after Varsoon's read, scummy.
GuyInFreezer: Town. No scumreads. I like you asking questions.
jon_h61: no posts.
Mac: Town for the most part, but look at his #811, #821, and #831. Detailed analysis AJ is scummy, waits for nacho to vote, then says he's "considering" voting as well?!?!?
Metal Sonic: Null (no posts)
orcinus_theoriginal: Town. No scumreads, and acts and reads town.
RachMarie: Agree with Mac's #1010. Seems to be ignoring large portions of the game.
Sajin: Null.
Svenskt Stål: Active lurking, seemingly. Active early on but quieter now. Lingering scumreads from the claim and such.
Nachomamma8: Null. Towny early in game, but I feel a little less so about that.
TiphaineDeath: Town, scummy early in game, but did a 180
TMTOLBTWNTOF: No comment
Varsoon: Null, I'm finding it hard to read him.

P EDIT

Gif- I did not "disappear," I was reading all 42 pages and typing this read post the whole goddamn time.

How is Svenskt Stål "seemingly" active lurking? Did he not explicitly state that he isn't even going to be reading the game?

- b

[²]

I've done it before its quite easy.

Teach me!

- b

[²]

You know, if we lynched 2 we'd probably save TONS of digital trees in posts and pages.

Unvote, Vote: 2

The difference between the two of us is that my posts are actually easy to quote.

- b

[²]

Under 9000.

Meme identified.

Almost.

- b

[²]

I don't know about active lurkin' but last time I met his as scum he lurked after talking a bit in early game.

My point is he's explicitly doing so - he isn't pretending to be active or anything like that.

- b

[²]

Nacho:

[4] Svenskt Stål (Cabd, GuyInFreezer, TiphaineDeath, BeautyAndTheBeast)

Now I am going to revote because of the wifom shitstorm that sven has created.

vote sven

VS

Both of your roles?

VOTE: Sven

VS

no its not. you weither buy that i am a miller, a cop cant prove it, so you cant really confirm my claim. and you are not getting what i am saying, if town , for some reason, decides to correctly clear player x, player x should be killed by scum,,, even if towns reasoning is wrong.

Nothing else really worth replying to in your post.

There's the absolute that you're forcing us into. You're making this a dichotomy in

A). All of town reads Sven scum. Sven lynched.
B). All of town reads Sven town. Sven making it to endgame is scummy.

Why are you not considering maybe

C). Town have differing reads on Sven. Sven is not lynched nor is investigated at night.
^^^HELLO SCUM SUCCESS^^^


Also I find using meta to justify the likelihood of a miller fakeclaim frankly stupid.

Pretty much my thoughts as well. Forcing it into Black or White is really bad when Gray exists. I've also seen plenty of wolves claim miller and make it to a win in endgame, sooo...

VOTE: sven

I'll bet you that there is at least one scum in there.

- b

[²]

I've done it before its quite easy.

Teach me!

- b

Um you just claim scum.
Then they lynch you. gg

andy don't go away

I want to close to you

really close

(>^.^)>?

I tried that, and I didn't get lynched. I even tried it more that once. Do you not believe me? Nacho was in at least two of the games in which I claimed scum and wasn't lynched. In the first one of them he read me as town because of it. I think you have to do it more subtle for it to work

- b

[²]

fery half of the 2 hydra:

what was your gut reaction to andy's big long post?

It's huge.

It's a thing of townish beauty.


- f

[²]

lol orcinus.

[²]

BRO, I mean both of those things, but mostly post-count.

@B&B:

The lurkiest of scumteams

.

@Orc: You keep trying to devalue my voice. You literally have no clue what my gambit could be, but you're already decrying it.
I'll never stop posting.
If you don't like it, replace out.

yes. cos yanno some scum like to lurk in games

you have no idea how I came to that conclusion

fery knows

fery would you say that if metal flips scum that rach is probably his partner?

based on his last reads list? It's not where scum-me would likely put a partner but I do see scum sometimes put teammates in their town pile at MS. Totally caught me by surprise in my first newbie game when my scum partner put me at the top of his town list.

[²]

Fire (with Nacho)

I was skimming that game earlier today.

Interesting.

[²]

huh. I thought I was looking at a finished game. I skimmed through about 6 or 7.

[²]

BRO, I mean both of those things, but mostly post-count.

@B&B:

The lurkiest of scumteams

.

@Orc: You keep trying to devalue my voice. You literally have no clue what my gambit could be, but you're already decrying it.
I'll never stop posting.
If you don't like it, replace out.

yes. cos yanno some scum like to lurk in games

you have no idea how I came to that conclusion

fery knows

fery would you say that if metal flips scum that rach is probably his partner?

based on his last reads list? It's not where scum-me would likely put a partner but I do see scum sometimes put teammates in their town pile at MS. Totally caught me by surprise in my first newbie game when my scum partner put me at the top of his town list.

lol

I learned list reading from the romanian bicyclist at mr where he was pretending to be guapo. I know you paid attention to that game cos you helped talked me through charlou's and mz's mini meltdowns and you were gming a game at tr at the time. I know it was over a year ago but still

I vaguely remember that game. the meltdowns anyway.

[²]

If I was modding a game with 20 players my setup would be likely 4-5 scum, Rach. But it could be higher, depending on how stacked town is with PRs.

It should be 4-5 scum if there is just one faction.

- b

[²]

Fire (with Nacho)

stfu aj that game is still ongoing

Hydra is an account, not a game.

If the account is only in one game, and that game is ongoing, then talking about that hydra tantamounts to talking about an ongoing game.

- b

[²]

That's all but conftown on the slot IMO.

- f

[²]

Because I think scum-svenskt would be pretty happy over the way the reaction to his claim trailed off and the thread moved on.

- f

[²]

But in the same case, scum-svenskt wouldn't be happy for some of us calling him out for lurkin'.

True, but lurking is pretty easy to fix.

- f

[²]

Somebody explain to me how the hell replacing out is a town tell, I REALLY don't see it.

It's not automatically a town tell IMO.

It has to do with svenskt's meta, which I see orcinus points out isn't an exact match to the borkgame and that's true but there's more to meta than perfect parallels. meta informs me about the range of behaviors to expect from someone in various situations. I said "all but" because I wouldn't bet the farm on this, but I do feel pretty good about him being town, as opposed to what I had before, which could be summarized as yeah, think so...I want to give it another day.

- f

[²]

yeah but when prodded he asked for a replacement most dont do that they just dont respond to the prod


Will keep looking

Pedit fery you know Sven best would he rage quit over not liking his role pm and us not paying attention to him?

It doesn't really look like a rage quit to me. But, I think being town and in a role/position that can make it hard to shoulder his way to leadership would take a lot of his interest in the game away. The challenges that scum face are different, and I think this game would still hold a lot of interest for scum-svenskt.

- f

[²]

I did some meta research on AJ yesterday, kinda prompted by Nacho. It looks like so far in this game he's pretty low volume compared to other games, but that could be due to the overall high volume of post in the game thread diluting his usual day 1 contribution.

His posts in the games I scanned looked strong - analytical, relevant to the lay of the game, engaged and interacting. that was strongly true as town, and not quite as strong as scum. He played a scary game as a 3rd party arsonist and won it at endgame. http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=27065

I didn't find a smoking gun, which was a disappointment, but I don't know quite what I'm looking for this time.

- f

[²]

cabd: I'll talk to you about Aj tomorrow but basically

I'm sheeping his hydra buddy nacho

The Aj case was posted by either nacho or mollie one of the two I forget

I am SO tired

This is where I am leaning. Want to see if buldermar agrees.

- f

[²]

Okay so I'm about to go to sleep but 2 is really worrying me I'm reading them as town as Cabd and BRO and I feel like they should be higher if they were actually town

But anyways

Can more people talk about the Aj wagon I think we're like /this/ close to agreeing on something

nono orc

we are most definitely lynching the 2 hydra today

lol. you are so damn predictable.

- f

[²]

good catch.

[²]

^^ f

[²]

Fire (with Nacho)

stfu aj that game is still ongoing

Hydra is an account, not a game.

If the account is only in one game, and that game is ongoing, then talking about that hydra tantamounts to talking about an ongoing game.

- b

Do you feel like this deliberate obtuseness is scummy?

I don't know, but I talked to f about AJ and we may be voting soon for different reasons (better have f explain it, she's the one who did the meta work). I think she'll be making a post about it.

- b

[²]

Svenskt Stål has requested replacement.

This is surprising to me. I really thought he was just going to prod dodge now that he knows he can get away with it.

In terms of alignment, I just don't see him doing this weird gambit and then replacing out when it looked as if he could get away with it, so he's probably town.

- b

[²]

Because I think scum-svenskt would be pretty happy over the way the reaction to his claim trailed off and the thread moved on.

- f

I swear you know how to steal thoughts.

- b

[²]

But in the same case, scum-svenskt wouldn't be happy for some of us calling him out for lurkin'.

He wasn't being called out for lurking, that's the whole point. He basically said: "fuck you all, I'm going to only post to prod dodge and I'm not going to read", and the reaction was: "Okay, sure, cya".

- b

[²]

That's all but conftown on the slot IMO.

- f

Why are you stealing my tells

That's exactly what I feel like, lol.

- b

[²]

Because I think scum-svenskt would be pretty happy over the way the reaction to his claim trailed off and the thread moved on.

- f

I swear you know how to steal thoughts.

- b

It's scary how close our analyses are sometimes. But, I've said that before.

- f

[²]

Sven is conftown, joins GiF, Nacho, and B&B in my hardcore town pile

Could you explain GiF? I havn't been paying much attention, but I may ISO later. Either way, it would be nice to hear.

I agree with the others.

Also, you and Nacho nailed Mac that other game IIRC. It would be nice to know what the two of you think of him this game.

- b

[²]

Sven did the same in borkgame and that's what convinced me of fery's townread on him

I had a reasoning post in that thread somewhere as to why his replace was townie

Although to be honest there is the minor difference of the ragequit vs what is probably an inactivity quit

I don't think this is a quit due to not having adequate time. He essentially posted that he was simply going to prod dodge and not read because he didn't care - not because he didn't have time.

- b

[²]

Okay so I'm about to go to sleep but 2 is really worrying me I'm reading them as town as Cabd and BRO and I feel like they should be higher if they were actually town

But anyways

Can more people talk about the Aj wagon I think we're like /this/ close to agreeing on something

f talked to me about it, but I think she should summarize her own opinion (that I approve of from what she told me).

- b

[²]

Hey guys! While we're talking about wagons:

In case I wasn't clear enough, I'm asking player-wise.
You know. Like "who did what so he's suspicious." Kind of stuff.

Ok. Let's go.

²: If it's ok, I'm going to read ² as one person and not two separate people. Same goes for Beast.

² is scum

to me because he reads TD as scum with little to no base and seems to be ignoring TD's more towny posts.
Aj The Epic:

Null-Scum

. I perceive AtE in #945 but that's pretty much it.
Andrius: Null, lack of posts.
BeautyAndTheBeast: Town. Reading well and catching things and no scumreads as of yet.
BROseidon: No reads as of yet.
Cabd:

Null-Scum

, mainly for not specifying reads in #931.
dntfkingcare: Null, lack of posts.
Ghostlin: After an ISO after Varsoon's read,

scummy

.
GuyInFreezer: Town. No scumreads. I like you asking questions.
jon_h61: no posts.
Mac: Town for the most part, but look at his #811, #821, and #831. Detailed analysis AJ is scummy, waits for nacho to vote, then says he's "considering" voting as well?!?!?
Metal Sonic: Null (no posts)
orcinus_theoriginal: Town. No scumreads, and acts and reads town.
RachMarie: Agree with Mac's #1010. Seems to be ignoring large portions of the game.
Sajin: Null.
Svenskt Stål: Active lurking, seemingly. Active early on but quieter now.

Lingering scumreads

from the claim and such.
Nachomamma8: Null. Towny early in game, but I feel a little less so about that.
TiphaineDeath: Town, scummy early in game, but did a 180
TMTOLBTWNTOF: No comment
Varsoon: Null, I'm finding it hard to read him.

P EDIT

Gif- I did not "disappear," I was reading all 42 pages and typing this read post the whole goddamn time.

Votecount 1.9

[3] Aj The Epic (Nachomamma8, Mac, orcinus_theoriginal)
[3] Ghostlin (Svenskt Stål, TiphaineDeath, Varsoon)
[3] Varsoon (Sajin, BROseidon, Cabd)
[2] TMTOLBTWNTOF (Ghostlin, Aj The Epic)
[1] ² (Andrius)
[1] BeautyAndTheBeast (Metal Sonic)
[1] TiphaineDeath (BeautyAndTheBeast)

[6] Not Voting (dntfkingcare, jon_h61, RachMarie,

TMTOLBTWNTOF

, ², GuyInFreezer)

With 20 alive, it is 11 to lynch.

Let me know if you see any problems.

Deadline is in (expired on 2013-06-04 10:00:00)

WHY AREN'T WE FUCKING LYNCHING TMTOLBTWNTOF WITH FIRE OUT OF THE TOWN?????

Yeah post 1050 looked bad to me too, but I think mostly for different reasons.

- b

[²]

Town:

2

, B&B, Nacho, BRO, Andrius, GIF

Scum: TD, prob-sven,

lean varsoon, lesser lean orc.

We've got town here:

Bro, Andy, Sajin, GIF, Cabd, B&B, Nacho, Rach (In order of strength

Scum here:

TMT, Ghost, Mac (motive bad, reasoning good... light scum read), Metal sonic, dntfkingcare, possibly

2

.

Your reads on bolded players have either magically disappeared or magically moved.
Maybe you can explain those.

Yeah ok I can see why GiF=town.

- b

[²]

I'm looking forward to seeing the "scumslip".

- f

[²]

Fferyllt asks a lot of questions and seems more or less passive and under the radar while Buldermar goes out and tries to push points.

I would really love to see an example of this, because I don't feel like I've contributed much to this game yet.

- b

[²]

Fire (with Nacho)

stfu aj that game is still ongoing

Hydra is an account, not a game.

If the account is only in one game, and that game is ongoing, then talking about that hydra tantamounts to talking about an ongoing game.
f.- b

Do you feel like this deliberate obtuseness is scummy?

I don't know, but I talked to f about AJ and we may be voting soon for different reasons (better have f explain it, she's the one who did the meta work). I think she'll be making a post about it.

- b

I want to talk with Nacho about the meta stuff.

[²]

Spoiler:

you are the one who will have to deal with buldey

You are probably going to regret this.

- b

this game doesn't count, but it will be good for a scum buldey baseline

What can I do to help you stop being an idiot?

- b

@Sajin you put down an early vote on varsoon based on his fencesitting(?) re the svenskt role claim stuff. What are your current thoughts?

- f

Last one, slight scum-lean.
Top three, that was because you guys brought up an outside game and talked shit about it, i'd be pissed too.

This does look like a town response to that question, given the situation.

- b

You know, if we lynched 2 we'd probably save TONS of digital trees in posts and pages.

Unvote, Vote: 2

The difference between the two of us is that my posts are actually easy to quote.

- b

I don't know about active lurkin' but last time I met his as scum he lurked after talking a bit in early game.

My point is he's explicitly doing so - he isn't pretending to be active or anything like that.

- b

Here are some of the statements that show your reads and some aggressiveness that FF lacks. (I did include a question of hers to show the type of posts I see she has a lot)

Now, here's a question: Going through your iso (third time now), I noticed that you've had plans to vote TD and (more currently), myself. As far as I know, you haven't gotten around to discussing this, or is there some reason you've held off on either of these votes?

Alright, I think I can understand your perspective. If you meta her, and meta me, you'll see that this is due to differences in playstyle, though. I also think that, because I'm generally more aggressive and insulting than her, I get to be that part of the hydra whereas she gets to be the part of the hydra asking questions. Of the two of us, she has done much more meta analysis than I have (in fact, I havn't actively done any yet in this game).

I did indeed want to vote TD, and I personally still think TD is scummy, but f disagrees with me on this and so does orc and Nacho whom I find very likely to be town.

I havn't ISO'ed you yet or looked into the points f and others have made against you, but her and I talked on gchat about you and she told me some stuff that I'' refrain from talking about in details in case she doesn't want me to. We're holding off a vote on you because f wants Nacho to show up.

- b

[²]

What reasons?

I havn't figured it out yet and wanted to just keep the post in mind, which is why I didn't mention it the first time around. I think what I dislike is that I can't see anything to disconfirm the hypothesis that he didn't just make up most of the reads.

- b

[²]

Spoiler:

you are the one who will have to deal with buldey

You are probably going to regret this.

- b

this game doesn't count, but it will be good for a scum buldey baseline

What can I do to help you stop being an idiot?

- b

@Sajin you put down an early vote on varsoon based on his fencesitting(?) re the svenskt role claim stuff. What are your current thoughts?

- f

Last one, slight scum-lean.
Top three, that was because you guys brought up an outside game and talked shit about it, i'd be pissed too.

This does look like a town response to that question, given the situation.

- b

You know, if we lynched 2 we'd probably save TONS of digital trees in posts and pages.

Unvote, Vote: 2

The difference between the two of us is that my posts are actually easy to quote.

- b

I don't know about active lurkin' but last time I met his as scum he lurked after talking a bit in early game.

My point is he's explicitly doing so - he isn't pretending to be active or anything like that.

- b

Here are some of the statements that show your reads and some aggressiveness that FF lacks. (I did include a question of hers to show the type of posts I see she has a lot)

Now, here's a question: Going through your iso (third time now), I noticed that you've had plans to vote TD and (more currently), myself. As far as I know, you haven't gotten around to discussing this, or is there some reason you've held off on either of these votes?

Alright, I think I can understand your perspective. If you meta her, and meta me, you'll see that this is due to differences in playstyle, though. I also think that, because I'm generally more aggressive and insulting than her, I get to be that part of the hydra whereas she gets to be the part of the hydra asking questions. Of the two of us, she has done much more meta analysis than I have (in fact, I havn't actively done any yet in this game).

I did indeed want to vote TD, and I personally still think TD is scummy, but f disagrees with me on this and so does orc and Nacho whom I find very likely to be town.

I havn't ISO'ed you yet or looked into the points f and others have made against you, but her and I talked on gchat about you and she told me some stuff that I'' refrain from talking about in details in case she doesn't want me to. We're holding off a vote on you because f wants Nacho to show up.

- b

playing my main account I'm a pretty aggressive player, though my hydra play style has been bleeding over into my solo play. I'm not sure that's a good thing. Time will tell. It's been interesting to sit back, stay in analysis mode mostly, and let the reactions come to me as a hydra. I've wound up playing the quiet(er), diplomatic one in all my hydrae I think. People who know my mafia background well probably think that's hilarious.

mollie and I have a long history of rubbing each other the wrong way in mafia. I would not have taken bets on diplomatic hydra perspective prevailing entirely in this game.

- f

[²]

Town:
Nacho
B & B
Orc
Sven
Maybe Vasoon

Scum:
At least one of {TD, GiF, Cabd}
Maybe TMTOL
Maybe AJ (based on f's opinion)

- b

[²]

Wait, your GIF read just changed...

Cabd and GiF are in that pile because of my wagon analysis. Both of them have made posts that I have pointed out looks town.

- b

[²]

If we go by the hypothesis that GiF and Cabd is town, that reassures my scum read on TD.

- b

[²]

pretty sure that's my fault.

- f

damn it.

[²]

why is it your fault?

Because I'm hanging fire on a couple of things, and disagree about TD.

Andrius is quite firmly in my town pile.

jesus christ I'm sucking at browsers today.

- f

[²]

It mostly has to do with Nacho's read on AJ.

- f

[²]

If I had a town read on AJ I'd be arguing pretty strongly against that wagon. I get stubborn about my town reads. I even get stubborn about my null reads, though I do compromise.

- f

[²]

If I had a town read on AJ I'd be arguing pretty strongly against that wagon. I get stubborn about my town reads. I even get stubborn about my null reads, though I do compromise.

- f

I don't feel like this is a legitimate answer to my question so I'll try again. what about Nacho's read on AJ is making you hold back?

It's the other way around. Nacho's read on AJ is the main reason I'm considering voting him now.

- f

grr

[²]

fery you excited or something?
You've been hydraslipping a lot.

I have another game that is hours from nightfall. I'm spending most of my time in that browser.

@Mac I have AJ at null maybe null/scum. I have TMTwhatev lower on the scum scale. And I have players still somewhere in the null range due to relatively low content. b wants to go ahead and put a vote down. I'm being a pain in the ass.

- f

[²]

buldermar you are being very tentative with your scum reads. And I can't remember you ever being this tentative.

I think I've been pretty straightforward, I just havn't spend time trying to read all of the players in this game yet. Which of my reads do you think I'm being tentative with? I'll try to elaborate on my thoughts.

- b

[²]

Town:
Nacho
B & B
Orc
Sven
Maybe Vasoon

Scum:
At least one of {TD, GiF, Cabd}
Maybe TMTOL
Maybe AJ (based on f's opinion)

- b

how about andrius? you left him out

and sajin

@ mac

its cos they are scum

I thought I left out more. What is it that you're asking me exactly?

I've told you this before, and I'll tell you once again: if you're going to go into your tunnel-mode in which you just interpret everything I do as scummy due to your presumption, don't bother talking to me.

- b

[²]

why are you hanging fire?

I still don't think that should effect how cautious buldermar is. it's out of character.

You're going to have to examplify this, because I don't see it, and it looks a bit like a silly excuse to sheep mollie's tunneling.

- b

[²]

Town:
Nacho
B & B
Orc
Sven
Maybe Vasoon

Scum:
At least one of {TD, GiF, Cabd}
Maybe TMTOL
Maybe AJ (based on f's opinion)

- b

Mac:

At least one of {TD, GiF, Cabd} because of post 1139. My quite simple hypothesis that has not yet been falsified is that a lot of players will, as scum, jump on the biggest/most promising wagon early on and do so with an unoriginal reason, but nonetheless a reason. These are the candidates because B & B is almost without a doubt town.

I have, however, town read individual posts of GiF and Cabd, which means that my scum read on TD is that much stronger. The reason why we're not voting TD is because f, orc and Nacho is convinced that he's town (which I still disagree with).

Does this clarify?

- b

[²]

If I had a town read on AJ I'd be arguing pretty strongly against that wagon. I get stubborn about my town reads. I even get stubborn about my null reads, though I do compromise.

- f

So, the only option then is a scum read. But wouldn't you be stubborn about that? Or at least vote your scum reads? You really aren't making much sense with what you're thinking of me right now.

This has been addressed already previously in this thread.

- b

[²]

buldermar you are being very tentative with your scum reads. And I can't remember you ever being this tentative.

I think I've been pretty straightforward, I just havn't spend time trying to read all of the players in this game yet. Which of my reads do you think I'm being tentative with? I'll try to elaborate on my thoughts.

- b

your scum reads. they are "maybe A, maybe B, and one of {X/Y/Z} - it's cautious for you.

How the hell is that being cautious? Is it not plausible that I simply havn't made a strong scum read (not counting TD) at this point in time?

- b

[²]

Town:
Nacho
B & B
Orc
Sven
Maybe Vasoon

Scum:
At least one of {TD, GiF, Cabd}
Maybe TMTOL
Maybe AJ (based on f's opinion)

- b

how about andrius? you left him out

and sajin

@ mac

its cos they are scum

I thought I left out more. What is it that you're asking me exactly?

I've told you this before, and I'll tell you once again: if you're going to go into your tunnel-mode in which you just interpret everything I do as scummy due to your presumption, don't bother talking to me.

- b

I asked what was your read on andy was

and sajin

those were the questions

they are right there in the post you quoted

so how can you be confused about what my questions were

but I guess what you offered was a nice way to dodge the questions that I originally asked!

No, you did not say "what are your read on andrius and sajin", you said "how about andrius and sajin", as if I was supposed to have reads on them, which I did not understand because IIRC I havn't even commented on either of their posts (and if I have then it didn't stand out to me because I don't remember). This is what happens when you tunnel: you just start assuming that everything I do is indicative of me being scum, which in turn makes you tunnel even more. It seriously gets the worst out of me.

I don't have reads on andy and sajin because I havn't had time to look into the content of their posts, nor have I talked to f about her reads on them yet. I'm in the middle of exams and will be for the next month or so.

"but I guess what you offered was a nice way to dodge the questions that I originally asked!" thank you for examplifying.

- b

[²]

@2: plz explain how my sven vote was unoriginal.

Unoriginal is probably a poor word for your vote. It was original in terms of stupidity.

- b

[²]

buldermar you are being very tentative with your scum reads. And I can't remember you ever being this tentative.

I think I've been pretty straightforward, I just havn't spend time trying to read all of the players in this game yet. Which of my reads do you think I'm being tentative with? I'll try to elaborate on my thoughts.

- b

your scum reads. they are "maybe A, maybe B, and one of {X/Y/Z} - it's cautious for you.

How the hell is that being cautious? Is it not plausible that I simply havn't made a strong scum read (not counting TD) at this point in time?

- b[/quote

if we were like 10 pages in and 200 posts then I would accept this counter argument. but as it stands there are 54 pages and 1342 posts and you are telling me that you have not gathered a single strong scum read from any of them? this is either poor scumhunting or fencesitting, and since I know you are a good player, I'm going for the latter.

I'm about to lose my temper, but I'll try to remain calm. I have not read nearly any of the longer posts, and many of the shorter ones, just to stay up with the pace of this game. It's inadequate time if anything, which does result in poor scumhunting in the sense that scumhunting efficiency correlates with time invested. I've asked f to sign up as a hydra in games with me rather than individual players because that way I hoped to not be forced to spend more time that I can afford right now (she can confirm, but that probably doesn't work for you).

- b

[²]

Town:
Nacho
B & B
Orc
Sven
Maybe Vasoon

Scum:
At least one of {TD, GiF, Cabd}
Maybe TMTOL
Maybe AJ (based on f's opinion)

- b

how about andrius? you left him out

and sajin

@ mac

its cos they are scum

I thought I left out more. What is it that you're asking me exactly?

I've told you this before, and I'll tell you once again: if you're going to go into your tunnel-mode in which you just interpret everything I do as scummy due to your presumption, don't bother talking to me.

- b

I asked what was your read on andy was

and sajin

those were the questions

they are right there in the post you quoted

so how can you be confused about what my questions were

but I guess what you offered was a nice way to dodge the questions that I originally asked!

No, you did not say "what are your read on andrius and sajin", you said "how about andrius and sajin", as if I was supposed to have reads on them, which I did not understand because IIRC I havn't even commented on either of their posts (and if I have then it didn't stand out to me because I don't remember). This is what happens when you tunnel: you just start assuming that everything I do is indicative of me being scum, which in turn makes you tunnel even more. It seriously gets the worst out of me.

I don't have reads on andy and sajin because I havn't had time to look into the content of their posts, nor have I talked to f about her reads on them yet

. I'm in the middle of exams and will be for the next month or so.

"but I guess what you offered was a nice way to dodge the questions that I originally asked!" thank you for examplifying.

- b

f has said she has a strong read on andy itt

I havn't talked to her about her read on andy.

- b

[²]

Town:
Nacho
B & B
Orc
Sven
Maybe Vasoon

Scum:
At least one of {TD, GiF, Cabd}
Maybe TMTOL
Maybe AJ (based on f's opinion)

- b

how about andrius? you left him out

and sajin

@ mac

its cos they are scum

I thought I left out more. What is it that you're asking me exactly?

I've told you this before, and I'll tell you once again: if you're going to go into your tunnel-mode in which you just interpret everything I do as scummy due to your presumption, don't bother talking to me.

- b

I asked what was your read on andy was

and sajin

those were the questions

they are right there in the post you quoted

so how can you be confused about what my questions were

but I guess what you offered was a nice way to dodge the questions that I originally asked!

No, you did not say "what are your read on andrius and sajin", you said "how about andrius and sajin", as if I was supposed to have reads on them, which I did not understand because IIRC I havn't even commented on either of their posts (and if I have then it didn't stand out to me because I don't remember). This is what happens when you tunnel: you just start assuming that everything I do is indicative of me being scum, which in turn makes you tunnel even more. It seriously gets the worst out of me.

I don't have reads on andy and sajin because I havn't had time to look into the content of their posts, nor have I talked to f about her reads on them yet

. I'm in the middle of exams and will be for the next month or so.

"but I guess what you offered was a nice way to dodge the questions that I originally asked!" thank you for examplifying.

- b

f has said she has a strong read on andy itt

I havn't talked to her about her read on andy.

- b

[²]

I'm about to lose my temper, but I'll try to remain calm. I have not read nearly any of the longer posts, and many of the shorter ones, just to stay up with the pace of this game. It's inadequate time if anything, which does result in poor scumhunting in the sense that scumhunting efficiency correlates with time invested. I've asked f to sign up as a hydra in games with me rather than individual players because that way I hoped to not be forced to spend more time that I can afford right now (she can confirm, but that probably doesn't work for you).

- b

yep. I'm switching from my main to the 2 account as my pre-ins have come up. There's an example in the micro queue. 182 I think.

- f

sigh

[²]

Vote: 2

Andy is not scum.
I'll post more seriously here tomorrow.

This isn't doing much for my confidence in your Aj read.

[²]

Well I can't kill you cuz you're obvtown

and protective roles are always on you

, so my only choice is to try to get you lynched!

I wish the bolded part was true.

- b

[²]

Your predecessor claimed Miller Tracker before he went out. I could see you claiming Miller as town Miller Tracker, sure. I could not see you playing the whole "I don't care if I'm lynched today" if you were also a power role on top of the miller aspect, though. I also didn't like that you had excuses for the late Miller claim after replacing in.

I don't see the supposed scumslip, although I agree with the "I don't care if I'm lynched" looking weird for a town miller tracker. Care to clarify the scumslip?

Also, stop claiming we're scum.

- b

[²]

I don't care if I die today because a) miller sucks and causes too many problems for town,

and b) tracker is not a great role, in my experience

.

Could you link me to the game in which you experienced a tracker not being a great role?

- b

[²]

Beyond this tag be storyline spoilers quoted from TVT:

Spoiler:

Tyrea is Yumea's daugther, and by extension Kallian's half-sister and an agent working for the Bionite order. She helps Yumea conspire to assassinate Sorean's daugther, Melia in the High Entia Tomb, but is interrupted and defeated by Shulk's group before she has a chance to kill her. She then escapes after her defeat and isn't seen again until after the Mechonis Core events where more of her origins are discovered. The party finds Tyrea in the front gates of Colony 6 and discover that Tyrea is Yumea's daugther by Melia. After recovering on Junks, she leaves the Colony only to find trace energy of Ether before being attacked. The party will then witness a Telethia attack the colony reconstruction HQ, and follow it to Makna Forest. When the party encounters the Telethia, initially thinking it to be a transformed Tyrea, they engage and defeat it. However, Tyrea soon appears unscathed and reveals the Telethia was actually her mother, Yumea, and thanks them for granting her peace before leaving herself. It is also revealed during this sidequest that she is also a half-Hom, despite her long wings.

I could see the miller fitting with flavor maaaaaybe, but it's nothing definite.

And I could see scum having plausible safe-claims available.

- b

[²]

Town
{

Nacho

,

2

,

GIF

,

Orci

,

Sven

, dfc,

AJ, Rach

, Ghostlin,

MetalSonic

}

Scum
{

Cabd

,

Tiphane

,

Mac

,

Varsoon, BROseidon

}

Updated.

Why is AJ, Rach, dfc, Ghostlin and MetalSonic town?
Why is Varsoon and BROseidon scum?

- b

[²]

False, you read enough into mine to hear about the "claiming scum" deal.

I scan every post for the mention of us/me in case there is something I need to respond to. Are you aware of how much faster it is to identify a string of letters than to actually read the content of a post?

- b

[²]

For instance, in post 1376 I looked only at the quotes of our/my posts.

- b

[²]

Hey TMT in case you missed it I asked you a question.

I missed it. Where.

Disagree with metal sonic, Aj, Varsoon, BRO, and Cabd

I mean... there's a reason those are his read...

Hey TMT, mind joining us? I seem to think you have developed a couple of votes and produced a lot more null reads last time around.

Most of my null reads are because of the fact that certain people haven't posted a lot and most of it was low-content.

Ok I've gone over my scumreads and decided which one was scummiest, and it's between 2 and Aj. At this point I believe it's VOTE: Aj

Also, Ghostlin is not scum

P-edit Metal give reasons now plz

So what exactly did you go over with respect to your scumreads?

- b

[²]

12:17 A.M (I'll Iso Tiphaine)
12:18 A.M (Ok, I just isoed tiphaine)

Yeah, no.

vote metal sonic

I swear this guy is so scummy and you're all fucking retarded.

- b

[²]

Vote: 2

Andy is not scum.
I'll post more seriously here tomorrow.

I sure hope so.

- b

[²]

I feel ignored X_x.

Here is a post for you.

- b

[²]

VOTE: TMTOL

I talked to f and we both think TMTOL is scum.

- b

[²]

I don't care if I die today because a) miller sucks and causes too many problems for town,

and b) tracker is not a great role, in my experience

.

Could you link me to the game in which you experienced a tracker not being a great role?

- b

I'm bored of looking for it. I *thought* I had tracker role before, and made no use of it. But in searching for said game, I could only find a game where I was watcher, not tracker. I might be getting that confused, or I might just not be looking hard enough in my post history. Sorry I can't help you much here.

So link me to the game in which you experienced a watcher not being a great role, please?

Also feel free to supply me with an explanation as well.

- b

[²]

I'm not liking Rev for 1446. The part b) explanation of post 1365 seems fabricated based on 1446.

- b

[²]

Nacho you feel like talking about AJ now?

- f

[²]

Off and on today. Will check when I can.

- f

[²]

12:17 A.M (I'll Iso Tiphaine)
12:18 A.M (Ok, I just isoed tiphaine)

Yeah, no.

vote metal sonic

I swear this guy is so scummy and you're all fucking retarded.

- b

I don't like TD either, but he has a point here. I've never fucking read something in ISO, understood what the author's trying to say and vote in under a minute.

Try it sometime.

I've done that countless times. If you're selectively looking for something it really isn't that difficult.

- b

[²]

I'm not liking Rev for 1446. The part b) explanation of post 1365 seems fabricated based on 1446.

- b

Here's your link to my watcher game... http://www.forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopi ... 23&t=23831
My flavour was gay spiderman. That raised a few chuckles.

I don't care if you don't like my explanation. My flip will show you that my thought process is sincere, although flawed. I wouldn't be so quick to post crock of crap explanations if I were scum. If I'm scum, I can defend against not declaring tracker role quite easily, without having to say it's not a great role in my experience. I can just say "I had no intention of claiming tracker on d1", which there is truth in. I'm surprised that sven full claimed tbh. I wish he hadn't.

I understand why my slot is a problem for you guys. But you have to ask why as scum sven would first of all claim miller, then full claim miller-tracker for no apparant reason, and why I would come in and say stuff like "tracker role sucks" without having the means to back my comment up. I'm a lot more careful, at least I try to be, when scum. I tend to be haphazard when town, because I just post what I think and don't worry about how it's perceived by town. When scum, I read back my posts to try and make sure I'm not fucking up. Of course, this is self-meta, which isn't of any use to anyone who doesn't know my game. But jiffy is aware of my town game, and he knows I can be all over the place.

Here, have my only scum game on this site... http://www.forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopi ... =1&t=23589
All my other games on MS are town. I can link scum games from another site I play at if required.

Stop doing self-meta, it's useless for obvious reasons.

Thanks for the link.

- b

[²]

I don't like that you finding something is hinged on me finding you scum because that's bullshit. You don't need room.

How the fuck is that bullshit? You know damn well that I prioritize answering your questions higher than nearly anything else, and you know damn well that me not having adequate to spend on this game isn't indicative of alignment.

- b

[²]

I know this. I'm not quite convinced that the reaction afterwards was coming from buldermar-town, though.

Okay? What do you want me to say to this other than tell you that you're wrong? I asked you if there is anything I can do to help you realize that we're town and you really havn't given me much. If there isn't anything to do, there really isn't a point in you asking me questions, is there?

- b

[²]

Nacho, what do you think of my wagon analysis? (if you can put aside your idea of us being scum for just a moment and look at it)

- b

[²]

2, however, I'm just not happy with.

Vote: 2

This looks opportunistic when you take into consideration the fact that a) you present no reason and b) Nacho just decided to push our lynch.

Why is Varsoon town?

- b

[²]

ok just finished reading it

10/10

- b

[²]

Wait, who thought Mac was scummy?

Well he jumped us when I refuted his argument, asserting that I was trying to discredit him by asking for an explanation, which I thought looked scummy. I'm not sure about f's read on Mac, though.

- b

[²]

Sorry, got distracted with thinking about buldey/ffery. I'm doing Mac as we speak.

Can't you think about us while you're doing Mac? Just don't vocalize it or he'll get jealous.

- b

[²]

budermar/ffery do you have any completed games as 2?

No, only ongoing ones.

- b

[²]

why can't you be scum
i wanted to lynch you so badly

If you can't have what you want, want what you can have ♥

- b

[²]

Nacho, what do you think of my wagon analysis? (if you can put aside your idea of us being scum for just a moment and look at it)

- b

You'll find wagon analysis won't be as reliable when so much of the conversation has been dominated by us. Scum is not going to pick a side in this argument until they know what the fuck is going on. What do you think of my townblock (if I added you)?

I'm talking about the wagon analysis I did on the Sven wagon.

I'll find the latest version of your townblock and comment on it.

- b

[²]

3. Andrius
4. BeautyAndTheBeast (Majiffy + pirate mollie)
5. BROseidon
6. Cabd
8. Ghostlin
9. GuyInFreezer
11. Mac
13. orcinus_theoriginal
14. RachMarie
18. TiphaineDeath
20. Varsoon

I'm not lynching any of these people. Most of them I'm not lynching ever, but there's too many people in here for me to actually say that. I would like everyone in this list to focus in on each other if they aren't comfortable with each other, though.

Havn't talked to f about Andrius yet. (correction, I talked to her while making this post and she has a strong town read on him, which I'm inclined to trust)
Majiffy/mollie is like 95%+ town.
BRO I havn't looked into.
Initially I thought Cabd looked bad, but his posts has been looking good later on. Also, he made one post that I thought was very indicative of a town mindset IIRC.
Ghostlin I havn't looked into.
GiF I think could still be scum because of that weird jump on the Sven wagon asserting that Sven claiming two roles is scummy (but he could just not know better, that's plausible too).
Mac I've looked at, but I can't read him for shit - I felt the exact same way in that other game. I also talked to f a bunch about it and she doesn't feel like she can confidently read him either
I'm trusting f on her town-read of orc because she's been right about him every other time and she has previously read him based off of only one or two posts.
Rach always just looks anti-town to me, and I havn't found any clear pattern. I like her persona, she just never appears to be particularly engaged in the game to me.
TD still looks scummy to me - especially when you weight in that the others from my Sven-wagon analysis doesn't otherwise stand out as scummy. f disagrees, though.
Varsoon doesn't look particularly town to me.

To sum up: I disagree only significantly with your read on TD.

[²]

Wait, who thought Mac was scummy?

Well he jumped us when I refuted his argument, asserting that I was trying to discredit him by asking for an explanation, which I thought looked scummy. I'm not sure about f's read on Mac, though.

- b

whaaaaat

this is flat out not true. 1) I did not "jump you" - I asked with your scumreads were so tentative. 2) i said you were trying to discredit me my lumping me in with mollie's tunneling. nothing else. not because you "asked for an explanation"

I guess the burden is on me to prove that you jumped on us, which I shall do.

- b

[²]

Fucking awesome trajectory in this vote, ffery back me up on this one.

Theif.

I agree, though. dots aren't overdone, which after the PJ game I think I would notice. I had him on it early that game but lost that thread for a while.

- f

[²]

I ask for you to specify:

buldermar you are being very tentative with your scum reads. And I can't remember you ever being this tentative.

I think I've been pretty straightforward, I just havn't spend time trying to read all of the players in this game yet. Which of my reads do you think I'm being tentative with? I'll try to elaborate on my thoughts.

- b

why are you hanging fire?

I still don't think that should effect how cautious buldermar is. it's out of character.

You're going to have to examplify this, because I don't see it, and it looks a bit like a silly excuse to sheep mollie's tunneling.

- b

Town:
Nacho
B & B
Orc
Sven
Maybe Vasoon

Scum:
At least one of {TD, GiF, Cabd}
Maybe TMTOL
Maybe AJ (based on f's opinion)

- b

Mac:

At least one of {TD, GiF, Cabd} because of post 1139. My quite simple hypothesis that has not yet been falsified is that a lot of players will, as scum, jump on the biggest/most promising wagon early on and do so with an unoriginal reason, but nonetheless a reason. These are the candidates because B & B is almost without a doubt town.

I have, however, town read individual posts of GiF and Cabd, which means that my scum read on TD is that much stronger. The reason why we're not voting TD is because f, orc and Nacho is convinced that he's town (which I still disagree with).

Does this clarify?
- b

Then you continue to claim that I'm not doing what I usually do without specifying what that is. You repeat yourself, asserting that my scumreads are tentative - which is what I questioned and wanted you to elaborate on. You didn't mention how my explanation wasn't satisfactory. In addition, you claim that I was making an effort to discredit you by lumping you in with mollie's tunneling, when I was pointing out that you were looking opportunistic by not elaborating on what you mean with tentative.

Then you jumped on us:

why are you hanging fire?

I still don't think that should effect how cautious buldermar is. it's out of character.

You're going to have to examplify this, because I don't see it, and it looks a bit like a silly excuse to sheep mollie's tunneling.

- b

no. no it's not? you are usually an aggresive player and not afraid to throw out a scumread. you spent most of poetic justice preaching to the high heavens about how Majiffy was correctly scum. now, your scumreads are tenative, and you are making an effort to discredit me by lumping me in with mollie's sheeping which is completely untrue.

VOTE: 2

I am more than comfortable with this now.

p-edit: a little better. I'm still happy with this vote.

[²]

@2, I've had you has a scum-lean for most the game so far.
*crosses arms*

Why vote AJ, Nacho?

Okay. Where do you mention any reason for this scum-lean?

- b

[²]

I think Mac is probably town because of 1534.

- b

[²]

Which I then refuted:

buldermar you are being very tentative with your scum reads. And I can't remember you ever being this tentative.

I think I've been pretty straightforward, I just havn't spend time trying to read all of the players in this game yet. Which of my reads do you think I'm being tentative with? I'll try to elaborate on my thoughts.

- b

your scum reads. they are "maybe A, maybe B, and one of {X/Y/Z} - it's cautious for you.

How the hell is that being cautious? Is it not plausible that I simply havn't made a strong scum read (not counting TD) at this point in time?

- b[/quote

if we were like 10 pages in and 200 posts then I would accept this counter argument. but as it stands there are 54 pages and 1342 posts and you are telling me that you have not gathered a single strong scum read from any of them? this is either poor scumhunting or fencesitting, and since I know you are a good player, I'm going for the latter.

I'm about to lose my temper, but I'll try to remain calm. I have not read nearly any of the longer posts, and many of the shorter ones, just to stay up with the pace of this game. It's inadequate time if anything, which does result in poor scumhunting in the sense that scumhunting efficiency correlates with time invested. I've asked f to sign up as a hydra in games with me rather than individual players because that way I hoped to not be forced to spend more time that I can afford right now (she can confirm, but that probably doesn't work for you).

- b

[²]

@2, I've had you has a scum-lean for most the game so far.
*crosses arms*

Why vote AJ, Nacho?

Okay. Where do you mention any reason for this scum-lean?

- b

Eh, Iso me.
If there's not any good reason in there, then, gut, I guess.

Regardless, I'd like to see your flip.

You mean "I'd like to see you flip", I hope.

- b

[²]

I'm just assuming that there isn't any reason for your scum-lean.

- b

[²]

WHY HAS THAT QUOTE NOT WORKED AGAIN?!

in poetic justice ffery was very conservative - something which I called her out on. she was indie.

in poetic justice, you were not afraid to throw out a scumread. you were town.

in xenoblade mafia, you are both being cautious, "maybe X, maybe Y" kinda reads. Then you go all "I'm going to lose my temper" for like no reason just because I'm questioning (nope, not tunneling either) you about your reads.

Yes, because I had previously, and several times, explained that I havn't had time to read everything, and you were trying to use it against me (my interpretation).

- b

[²]

Why is Varsoon town?

I'm literally too tired to explain another townread.

But I can urge you to join me on this:

Vote: AJ the Epic

I mucked around and skimmed a half dozen or so games in the meta pile a couple days ago. what I saw was that his play style is kinda scary because his not-town game looks pretty similar to his town game, and it's not like he's significantly dumbing down on the town side IMO.

but, to the extent I could discern a difference, it seems to be maybe lack of focus in terms of what he reacts to/presses on. he won at endgame as an arsonist in a recent game, which I thought was a hell of a game: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=27065

I did not find a smoking gun this time. either I have missed something obvious or I just don't know what I am looking for.

- f

[²]

I don't understand why you were nearly losing your temper. like in pj you lost it at orc which I can understand cos he tunnels like shit but I'm not even a quarter as bad as him. please don't lose it however, I wouldn't like that.

p-edit that refute point is the first time I've seen you say it however that may just be me being a forgetful person.

tell me, does ffery have any strong scumreads she has listed in the thread?

I felt like I had been quite explicit about my situation with exams and that it was being overlooked by a lot of people, and then after I had explained myself you seemed to use it against me (again: my interpretation). More often than not when I do lose it, it's an active decision of mine, and I do weight in to whom I'm talking when making that decision. In other words, I'll try and stay calm with you.

I do trust that you didn't remember/see the refute point, as I don't think you would have quoted the post to which it was a response if you did remember.

I think she made a post about it, but TMT whom we agreed to vote, and possibly AJ (I don't quite understand what the deal is with AJ, but it's meta related and I'd rather not spend time reading other games right now).

- b

[²]

actually I can understand you losing your temper if you felt you were repeating yourself, apologies for that.

Don't worry about it =)

[²]

Nacho, what's your take on TMT? He's not on your town-list and I think he looks bad.

- b

[²]

vote - 2

Sheeping nacho here. I'm not sure I agree with him when he says varsoon is town, but I'm interested in varsoon if 2 and metal sonic are scum. That post vs me kinda felt like a chainsaw and bus all in one. Remember I said this if both 2 and metal flip scum.

Enjoy your sheeping-journey. I'm looking forward to the unvoting part of it.

- b

[²]

I see your situation wrt exams, I will consider that when posting in future, and I appreciate the efforts to stay calm. I think I'd like to here more from ffery about her reads. plus for her to point to any post where she has been confident about scum reads (i don't expect you to trawl back and dig this up, if it's there at all)

TMT is meh for me. I think AJ is far worse for scumminess.

@Reverend - Nacho is voting AJ.

I'll look for you comments on AJ. may have questions. I'm basically willing to sheep Nacho and I think I speak for buldermar on that as well.

I'm frustrated that there's a meta element to this that I couldn't find.

- f
- f

[²]

I don't understand why you were nearly losing your temper. like in pj you lost it at orc which I can understand cos he tunnels like shit but I'm not even a quarter as bad as him. please don't lose it however, I wouldn't like that.

p-edit that refute point is the first time I've seen you say it however that may just be me being a forgetful person.

tell me, does ffery have any strong scumreads she has listed in the thread?

I felt like I had been quite explicit about my situation with exams and that it was being overlooked by a lot of people, and then after I had explained myself you seemed to use it against me (again: my interpretation). More often than not when I do lose it, it's an active decision of mine, and I do weight in to whom I'm talking when making that decision. In other words, I'll try and stay calm with you.

I do trust that you didn't remember/see the refute point, as I don't think you would have quoted the post to which it was a response if you did remember.

I think she made a post about it, but TMT whom we agreed to vote, and possibly AJ (I don't quite understand what the deal is with AJ, but it's meta related and I'd rather not spend time reading other games right now).

- b

I see your situation wrt exams, I will consider that when posting in future, and I appreciate the efforts to stay calm. I think I'd like to here more from ffery about her reads. plus for her to point to any post where she has been confident about scum reads (i don't expect you to trawl back and dig this up, if it's there at all)

TMT is meh for me. I think AJ is far worse for scumminess.

@Reverend - Nacho is voting AJ.

Thanks, I appreciate that. My last one is done in about two weeks, at which point I'll have plenty of time (and no excuses).

There is a reads list in post 966, but she can probably give you an updated one.

- b

[²]

buldermar what is your take on Metal Sonic?

I'll have a look at him now.

- b

[²]

I skimmed the whole 700 page of wall


nacho town

freezerguy town

orc town

vassoon town

beautybeast town

mac town

tiphaine scum

sven troll

This post was made 15 minutes after saying he'd catch up with the last 30 pages.

[²]

I'll give reasons after the posting dies down. 50 pages(1000+ posts) in 72 hours, please no its torturous

I don't like this sentence. How does giving reasons for all of your reads relate to the frequency of posting?

- b

[²]

I see your situation wrt exams, I will consider that when posting in future, and I appreciate the efforts to stay calm. I think I'd like to here more from ffery about her reads. plus for her to point to any post where she has been confident about scum reads (i don't expect you to trawl back and dig this up, if it's there at all)

TMT is meh for me. I think AJ is far worse for scumminess.

@Reverend - Nacho is voting AJ.

I'll look for you comments on AJ. may have questions. I'm basically willing to sheep Nacho and I think I speak for buldermar on that as well.

I'm frustrated that there's a meta element to this that I couldn't find.

- f
- f

If he's certain about it, but first I want to hear him about TMTOL (and more recently Metal Sonic who also appears to look bad from this quick ISO).

- b

[²]

12:17 A.M (I'll Iso Tiphaine)
12:18 A.M (Ok, I just isoed tiphaine)

Yeah, no.

vote metal sonic

I swear this guy is so scummy and you're all fucking retarded.

- b

I don't like TD either, but he has a point here. I've never fucking read something in ISO, understood what the author's trying to say and vote in under a minute.

Try it sometime.

I've done that countless times. If you're selectively looking for something it really isn't that difficult.

- b

Yes, but who reads an ISO looking for something specific except scum?

Bluntly, if I'm going in to reading something for Town, I don't go, 'hrr, let's see which of my Ghost approved town reads this pings' (and since a lot of my reads are behavioral, I need to actually read the

fucking

thread. A single turn of phrase won't do it for me).

Scum can sometimes stick out in a few posts, but I personally like to read the whole thing in case the whole thing turns schizophrenic for me. And it sometimes does. (Read my response to BROsideon for an example.)

No, I don't buy that he, under a minute, gave it a nice, thoughtful read and posted something like this. It's taken me three at least just to TYPE THIS.

That's a valid and good point, and he also made 8ish town reads and 1 scum read based on reading 30 pages in 15 minutes. I suppose there is merit to it being a tell (thank you Mac for asking me about him, I wouldn't have noticed this otherwise).

I read the thread quite quickly myself, but I skipped a lot of posts, didn't have many reads and still was probably a lot slower. I can't really wrap my head around reading 30 pages in 15 minutes AND making so many strong reads. I also can't wrap my head around his excuse for not giving reasons for those reads.

It's possible that he is pretending to have strong reads, or to have ISO'ed, even as town - but I do think it's less likely.

- b

[²]

wow that is a ton of pages to catch up on....

Was gone a big chunk of yesterday and was falling asleep in the chair last night so decided to finish catching up today.

Welcome to the madhouse ... I mean the game, yeah the game... Rev.

Will look up games for Rev and Jon I think I have one completed with each and in both they were Town.

did you find NOTHING to comment on in the 24 hours since you posted? :/

She commented on the many pages to catch up on

- b

[²]

argh all your (fferys) scumreads STILL don't feel strong in 966, they are all "leaning scum"

it's still a REALLY conservative attitude from ffery. she was scummy for this kinda thing in pj.

I was 3rd party, but I was trying to help town - specifically Orcinus and buldermar because I had town reads on them. once I outed, I made no bones about it. my reads were genuinely tentative in that game. Having players that I trusted as town with highly conflicted reads on each other and on other players made the game hard to process.

I've had some of the same issues in this game, with the additional dissonance of being scum-read by some players whose reads I'd otherwise weigh pretty heavily with my own.

Other games have calmed down for now. I'm going to spend tonight pretty much exclusively reviewing this game.

- f

[²]

@Reverend - Nacho is voting AJ.

My bad. I saw him saying he thought 2 was scum and assumed that's where his vote was, I've read some of nacho's ISO and he's had his vote there at some point.

Can't say I'm unhappy with my vote though. Orc has placed his vote there, nacho thinks 2 is scum, I'm happy this is a good lynch for today. If orc and nacho go for AJ, then I'll probably be on that one. I'm more confident in my town reads of orc and nacho than I am in any of my scum reads. That's why I'm happy to sheep them.

Enjoy your sheeping-journey. I'm looking forward to the unvoting part of it.

I'm looking forward to the bit where nacho changes to you.

You're disgustingly terrible.

- b

[²]

1+1=sven

This is my kind of math.

Miller-tracker in non-bastard game? Eh... I really don't like it at all. One part is always mafia (red investigation) and the other is mafia-capable (tracker). But, at the same time, I really think this is the better vote.


VOTE: TiphaineDeath

Too many bad posts. Voting Nacho immediately because no scum would ever miller claim? Bad. If you don't think scum would do it, they'll try it. Unvoting with "Huh, interesting". Also bad. Bad scum must die, and I wish I could do math with that name but I can't.

I can hardly do math anyways.

AJ - first few posts he was on a player that I thought looked scummy (TD).

Post 617 - reinforces the read, irritable about thread size. The irritability gave me a town feel.

Post 774 - really disliked some of his reads in this post - Orcinus, Svenskt. otoh the Andrius read and explanation in 783 reads well

945 - true observation about Mac, but Mac tends to do that as town I think.

1148 - tactical back away from TD? trajectory sucked, but lots of thread between posts here.

1291 - I actually like this post. He picked up quite a bit on my overall hydra play style, though my style is still morphing. I feel like he's reading the thread carefully, not just flipping through, to develop observations like this one and the Mac read in 945.

Starting around 1386 he turns his focus to TMT. This the second player where his attitude about his read is really strong. From my meta dives, this much conviction is what I thought was not as pronounced in his scum game.

Will reread a completed scum game or two to be sure I have the focus thing right.

- f

[²]

jesus christ you guys are giving me whiplash.

- f

[²]

I don't pretend otherwise.

One thing... if you're town and I'm terrible, why aren't you all over me?

If you're insinuating what I think you're insinuating you may even be worse than I thought.

- b

[²]

@orcinus mine first, then buldermars. If I don't get pissed off and take a break, I'll be posting an updated one after I go through a ton of ISOs tonight.

- f

Town: orcinus, nacho, B&B, BRO

Leaning town:
svenskt (for today - pretty sure this is my view only , not buldermar's)
Andreius
GiF (that was a weird thing about the chat game, though)
Cabd (in part based on nacho and to a lesser extent Rach)

Null/Town:
Rach (always and forever I swear)
Varsoon
Ghostlin (this read could slide)
Mac

Leaning Scum:
TD (buldermar's read mostly)
TMTwhatev
Maybe AJ

Not enough info to go on: Sajin, dntfkingcare, Metal Sonic, jon_h61

This is not a consensus list (yet anyway), but some of my views are influenced by buldermar's opinions.

Town:
Nacho
B & B
Orc
Sven
Maybe Vasoon

Scum:
At least one of {TD, GiF, Cabd}
Maybe TMTOL
Maybe AJ (based on f's opinion)

- b

[²]

I know at least one of your scumreads is wrong because TMT has dropped at least 6 newscumtells.

Then fucking vote him?

And get Metal next, he's either scum or a liar who pretends to be reading stuff he couldn't have possibly read and be making reads he couldn't have possibly been making for no good reason.

You're also still wrong about TD.

[²]

@orcinus mine first, then buldermars. If I don't get pissed off and take a break, I'll be posting an updated one after I go through a ton of ISOs tonight.

- f

Town: orcinus, nacho, B&B, BRO

Leaning town:
svenskt (for today - pretty sure this is my view only , not buldermar's)
Andreius
GiF (that was a weird thing about the chat game, though)
Cabd (in part based on nacho and to a lesser extent Rach)

Null/Town:
Rach (always and forever I swear)
Varsoon
Ghostlin (this read could slide)
Mac

Leaning Scum:
TD (buldermar's read mostly)
TMTwhatev
Maybe AJ

Not enough info to go on: Sajin, dntfkingcare, Metal Sonic, jon_h61

This is not a consensus list (yet anyway), but some of my views are influenced by buldermar's opinions.

Town:
Nacho
B & B
Orc
Sven
Maybe Vasoon

Scum:
At least one of {TD, GiF, Cabd}
Maybe TMTOL
Maybe AJ (based on f's opinion)

- b

That's an old one, but orc doesn't deserve an updated version anyway.

- b

[²]

(that was a weird thing about the chat game, though)

I never noticed this. What about it was weird?

I was vanilla town in the chat game.

[²]

Why is TD not solidly in buld's scum pile but rater grouped with two towns

I've explained this countless times already.

- b

"You cannot make another post so soon after your last." go fuck yourself I can make as many posts as I want to as soon as I want to.

[²]

I know at least one of your scumreads is wrong because TMT has dropped at least 6 newscumtells.

Then fucking vote him?

And get Metal next, he's either scum or a liar who pretends to be reading stuff he couldn't have possibly read and be making reads he couldn't have possibly been making for no good reason.

You're also still wrong about TD

You know why nacho isn't voting TMT I mean come on

Did you read nacho's case on TD it was good

Yes I did, and IIRC I also explained why I disagreed with it.

- b

[²]

You know why nacho isn't voting TMT I mean come on

No I do not. Enlighten me?

- b

[²]

You know why nacho isn't voting TMT I mean come on

No I do not. Enlighten me?

- b

and because he's voting you

there are varying degrees of scum

And varying degrees of stupidity.

- b

[²]

I don't pretend otherwise.

One thing... if you're town and I'm terrible, why aren't you all over me?

If you're insinuating what I think you're insinuating you may even be worse than I thought.

- b

nacho changed to you before I unvoted, didn't he? Ha.

It's friday night. I've been drinking and smoking and playing cards. I don't care if I'm terrible. I'm miller. I hope I die soon. Until it happens, I'll continue blurting out my opinion, because otherwise there would be no point in me playing, would there?

My point is... you've loosely complained about my self meta, you think I'm terrible, yet you don't seem to be making any attempt to apply any pressure on me. I don't sense any doubt about my role. You know I'm miller, don't you?

jiffy's suggestion I'm scum is sincere. He's wandering if I'm scum tracker, considering the reasons why sven might claim miller and then later claim miller tracker. This is town thought process. This is what you're lacking, little squared symbol.

I'm fully expecting a scum flip with 2.

I don't need to apply any pressure on you because I don't find you particularly scummy, just particularly terrible.

- b

[²]

So this buld method of hurling insults reminds me of BSG caught scum

i'm good now

Yeah I never do that as town.

- b

[²]

the biggest thing is that when I asked 2 what she thought of that post she called it "huge" and then she says "beautifully townish". why not say "town". it looks like the kind of distancing you would only have for a scum buddy cos why would someone distance themselves from andy.

I remember talking to f about that on gchat. I read the post as town because of how long it is and because of the vote. She didn't know what to respond to you although she read the post the same way as me. No wonder she was hesitant when you're inclined pull this type of bullshit.

- b

[²]

the biggest thing is that when I asked 2 what she thought of that post she called it "huge" and then she says "beautifully townish". why not say "town". it looks like the kind of distancing you would only have for a scum buddy cos why would someone distance themselves from andy.

I know I have said I have a town read on Andrius several times, including before this post was made iirc. The post is not town, it's townish. It gives me a town feel. I am pretty sure you can find hundreds of posts, maybe thousands where I call a post townish because I've been doing it for years. I don't mean ish as a "kinda sorta" suffix. More like a location or an attribute. Finnish, English, Townish.

I'm shocked this has never come up before if that's what you've always thought I meant.

- f

[²]

I hope you appreciate the civility of post 1667 because it was a fucking struggle to keep it that way.

- f

[²]

dntfkingcare

fluff - initial 7 posts, not linking to them

self-meta 356

more self meta 819 comments on two wagons (varsoon - understands, but not jumping, and TD - doesnt understand, "reaction fishing"? What does this mean?

10 posts total. no fucking idea what his alignment is based on the available content, but low level of content in even those 10 posts looks really bad.

[²]

Not gonna say a whole lot about Ghostlin. His catch up posts imo are off the mark at times, but the reasoning is townish More importantly the ragey stuff looks like town Ghostlin based on earlier meta diving. moving him out of the null pile.

- f

[²]

MS and the infamous minute read.

readiing MS' ISO the only thing that strongly stands out as questionable is doing TD's ISO and reporting back in a minute. I guess technically it could have been something close to two minutes and we'd be none the wiser with timestamps. Tiphaine's ISO at that point was almost do-able for me, but post 901 slowed me down. And...MS's case was "all fluff except for 901".

tempted to say the iso is a little too much ado over not much. Nothing stands out as strongly townish or even strong content of any sort in his observations/interactions to date. Not in my town pile.

- f

[²]

no fucking idea on jon_h61

- f

[²]

Nacho (or anyone) can you give me a link to an AJ scum game you think is relevant? I found an ancient one. His posts are nothing like in this game.

- f

[²]

Nacho (or anyone) can you give me a link to an AJ scum game you think is relevant? I found an ancient one. His posts are nothing like in this game.

- f

or a name. or a mod name.

I'm leaving for a music fest in a little while. what I don't wrap up shortly will probably wait until tomorrow.

- f

[²]

how does this:

I mucked around and skimmed a half dozen or so games in the meta pile a couple days ago. what I saw was that his play style is kinda scary because his not-town game looks pretty similar to his town game, and it's not like he's significantly dumbing down on the town side IMO.

but, to the extent I could discern a difference, it seems to be maybe lack of focus in terms of what he reacts to/presses on. he won at endgame as an arsonist in a recent game, which I thought was a hell of a game: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=27065

I did not find a smoking gun this time. either I have missed something obvious or I just don't know what I am looking for.

- f

go with this:

Nacho (or anyone) can you give me a link to an AJ scum game you think is relevant? I found an ancient one. His posts are nothing like in this game.

- f

if you think he is playing differently than what you had noticed about in his games why did you not push him for a stronger read?

realized the scum game was over a year ago. bureaucracy?

phoneposting. won't be around much until late tonight.

[²]

how does this:

I mucked around and skimmed a half dozen or so games in the meta pile a couple days ago. what I saw was that his play style is kinda scary because his not-town game looks pretty similar to his town game, and it's not like he's significantly dumbing down on the town side IMO.

but, to the extent I could discern a difference, it seems to be maybe lack of focus in terms of what he reacts to/presses on. he won at endgame as an arsonist in a recent game, which I thought was a hell of a game: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=27065

I did not find a smoking gun this time. either I have missed something obvious or I just don't know what I am looking for.

- f

go with this:

Nacho (or anyone) can you give me a link to an AJ scum game you think is relevant? I found an ancient one. His posts are nothing like in this game.

- f

if you think he is playing differently than what you had noticed about in his games why did you not push him for a stronger read?

realized the scum game was over a year ago. bureaucracy?

phoneposting. won't be around much until late tonight.

[²]

I'll pay attention to this game later tonight or tomorrow.

- b

[²]

I mean why as town would you spread wifom before you leave?

Because it's not wifom if he's lynched/nk'ed and flips town?

- b

[²]

why do you not think that our hydra would not be a high nk priority?

Why don't you not stop not using double negation?

- b

[²]

I'm going to go cut grass, but if any other players want to entertain my gambit/actually use it on Reverend, please let me know.

Can we do it on AJ or 2 instead? I'd really like to confirm the alignments of those slots.

You should probably consider using the gambit on us if it really is as viable as you're insinuating.

- b

[²]

Rev is being the same kind of anti-town that he was the last time I played with him and he was town. I think being anti-town might be a town-tell for him.

- b

[²]

I am listening to live zydeco and drinking a hurricane. wish you were all here.

- f

[²]

Nacho (or anyone) can you give me a link to an AJ scum game you think is relevant? I found an ancient one. His posts are nothing like in this game.

- f

I've got two anti-town games on site. That's it. And empking's was only 6-7 months ago.

Offsite, my scum games are even older. I haven't had a chance to play as mafia since a while ago.

I found one from last summer. Looked like it was your first MS game. And there was a recent game where you were 3rd party arsonist. The game from last summer looks really different from your more recent games. It reminds me of my first game at MS, which was also a scum game. I won't ever play a game that way at MS again because now my town game is known or knowable.

- f

[²]

I am listening to live zydeco and drinking a hurricane. wish you were all here.

- f

I love 14 hr time difference

We could've been drunk at the same time

We probably were! drinking a hurricane at 2 in the afternoon is not something I recommend making a habit.

- f

[²]

since the meta search has been a rabbit hole, I'm trying to reread Aj's posts without taking prior games into account. What I'm seeing is that his shorter posts mostly feel pretty strong and to the point. When his posts are longer, there's something about them that's off. They come off as overworked/wordsmithed.

And this post is pretty awful both in terms of overwork and in terms of actual content/logic.

I get the impression with all these "Lynch this order" lists of UN and his fucking with the town in Posh mafia. Let's not worry about that shit, you get one flip at a time and you move on. Telegraphing every person that you want dead is only going to cause the scum to kill everyone else, but congratulations on accomplishing that. The way you're negotiating lists to lynch feels very scummy. Why worry? Push a reasonable case, get the flip, move on. Nacho, I know for a fact you're smarter than this, but then you go around pretending that this isn't going to affect a scum night kill. What the hell, nacho? I expect town play from you, not that. If I didn't know Braveheart was scum, I'd be voting you for encouraging and not stopping that bullshit.

- f

[²]

if you had really isod him instead of "hey man isos arent so fast even if its a 5 page children's book with shitton of pictures!"

you'd realise it only takes a minute

I'm not particularly interested in how you managed to ISO him in a minut. But how you manged to read 30 pages in 15 minutes AND establish 8 strong reads (or some similar number) is beyond my comprehension.

- b

[²]

Is there a specific reason you’re choosing 6 here?

Stupid filler question. Is there a specific reason you think asking this question will give you information about anyones alignment? Looks like asking a question for the sake of asking a question.

- b

[²]

I’m down for a 2 lynch. I've thought she’s scum since her , and nothing that has happened since I first scumread her has made me want to change my read.

VOTE: 2

And yet you conveniently choose this time to jump on the wagon, knowing that it is now likely to happen. You're probably scum.

So, we're looking at:

TMT scum
Metal scum
TD scum (although he does look slightly better for pointing out Metal pretending to read stuff he couldn't possibly have read)
BRO likely scum

Did I forget someone?

- b

[²]

When have I played with you before?

Are you really going to make me find it? I know we've played before and I

will

find it if you suggest that I'm making this up. What does it matter?

- b

[²]

And TMTOLBTWNTOF is still lurking around. I feel that this strategy is effective for him since no one pays any attention to him. Complete garbage posting and lurking off any attention.

Well you're all busy being retards. He's so obviously scum that it's not even fun.

- b

[²]

disagree with buldermar on BRO.

- f

[²]

to a lesser extent, I disagree on TD as well. but BRO is pretty solidly in my town pile at this point. I'm seeing a clear evolution of his game from the first one we played. he obviously took feedback from that game seriously.

- f

[²]

Ok it was posh mafia where I played bulder. Here's a thought though... he says I was anti-town in a past game with him, but then goes on to say he can't remember which game it was... how can you remember the details of my performance if you can't even remember which game it was?

I remember nearly none of the names of the games in which I have participated but probably essentially all of the players I have ever played with and at least something about their behavior, and I remember your behavior being inherently anti-town. If I want to make sure that it is indeed a town tell, I'd need to confirm that you were indeed town in the game(s) we played together, but I really can't be bothered.

Also, it's not exactly a detailed description of your performance saying that you were anti-town.

[²]

And it turns out in hindsight that I was actually on the right track with ninja and vifam, so I feel it a bit harsh to be called "anti-town" for that performance, when compared to the average townie. And why am I playing anti-town in this one too, bulder? And if I am playing anti-town, why aren't you pushing for my lynch?

I don't even remember what about you that game made me think you were being anti-town, I just remember that I thought you were. The fact that you're defending something you did in that game suggests to me that I was right.

Yes, you are being inherently anti-town in this game too, and I can examplify if need be, but I trust that the more experienced players are already aware of this.

- b

[²]

And if I am playing anti-town, why aren't you pushing for my lynch?

Did I not already say that you playing anti-town is probably a town tell? Do you understand that being anti-town has nothing to do with being scummy? Serious question, because I'm getting the impression that you don't.

- b

[²]

Because your reads suck

Why do my reads suck? Because you disagree with me? I'm beginning to think maybe my reads on BRO and MS do suck, but that's due to 2's push at them at a time he's in trouble. Of course my reads suck, I've probably read 10% of the thread. I could just skate by doing bugger all, but then my reads won't develop into ones that hopefully don't suck. I'm not sure why you're so keen to slap me down tbh orc.

Your reads suck because they are often based on objectively false premises.

- b

[²]

to a lesser extent, I disagree on TD as well. but BRO is pretty solidly in my town pile at this point. I'm seeing a clear evolution of his game from the first one we played. he obviously took feedback from that game seriously.

- f

Should probably go with f's read, then.

- b

[²]

I recommend paraphrasing the shit out of that stuff because mod kill. Also, suggest you guys check with bork before proceeding.

- f

[²]

Alright, whatever. I'll maybe take your anti-town comments on board if you flip town. Maybe. I still think you're scum, I find it strange that you're not applying any pressure on me. I'd expect townies to be extremely wary of me, because of my tracker modifier. Mollie is on the ball when she worries about a scum tracker. Like I said earlier, town thought process. Scum know I'm miller. Townies do not know. You don't seem to be interacting with me in a way that makes me believe you don't know what my role is. Therefore, I think you're scum. So my vote stays.

You inherited my read on svenskt, which went to pretty strong town when he replaced out. Prior to that I was willing to wait a day and see how my read shaped up. Our vote is on someone we agree looks scummy.

- f

[²]

Alright, whatever. I'll maybe take your anti-town comments on board if you flip town. Maybe. I still think you're scum, I find it strange that you're not applying any pressure on me.

WHY THE FUCK WOULD I APPLY PRESSURE ON YOU IF I READ YOU AS TOWN?

[²]

You don't seem to be interacting with me in a way that makes me believe you don't know what my role is. Therefore, I think you're scum. So my vote stays.

OKAY? COULD IT POSSIBLY, MAYBE, PROBABLY, BE RELATED TO THE FACT THAT I, YOU KNOW, READ YOU AS TOWN?

[²]

Alright, I'm back. Should I try this on 2 or on TheReverend?

You fucking do that on us. We're the ones about to get lynched, not Rev. WTF IS THIS

[²]

I recommend paraphrasing the shit out of that stuff because mod kill. Also, suggest you guys check with bork before proceeding.

- f

Doesn't work if he paraphrases.
It -should- be rules legal, given that he's not taking a screen-cap, etc.
Because there's nothing that lets us know if he's 100% quoting the PM, right?


P-Edit:

Ah well.
My idea was to counterclaim with my PM, minus role, and then third parties could confirm that the rhetoric fits, etc.
/shrug
It -would- work if it was rules legal, but I guess not.

It isn't rules legal if he c/p.

Good job wasting everyones time on something this retarded.

In addition, if scum has fake-claim, which really isn't that unlikely, it wouldn't be working even if they c/p'ed.

God why are everyone in this game so retarded

[²]

Alright, I'm back. Should I try this on 2 or on TheReverend?

You fucking do that on us. We're the ones about to get lynched, not Rev. WTF IS THIS

Do it on someone not in my purge list and not in my townblock.
If you need them to be close to a lynch, save it for later.

And Nacho, you're reading us as scum so you can shut up too.

[²]

Makes me think--in a Lylo situation, all players could quote their role PMs directly, and the one guy who isn't modkilled is the scum, because he would have to lie or be modkilled. Then again, I guess if everyone is modkilled, there's no one to lynch the remaining scum.

Makes me think that you probably need a game with only Varsoon's to have enough people being that retarded.

[²]

YES THATS WHAT IM HERE FOR - TO TELL YOU ALL THAT YOU'RE RETARDS

[²]

Alright, whatever. I'll maybe take your anti-town comments on board if you flip town. Maybe. I still think you're scum, I find it strange that you're not applying any pressure on me. I'd expect townies to be extremely wary of me, because of my tracker modifier. Mollie is on the ball when she worries about a scum tracker. Like I said earlier, town thought process. Scum know I'm miller. Townies do not know. You don't seem to be interacting with me in a way that makes me believe you don't know what my role is. Therefore, I think you're scum. So my vote stays.

You inherited my read on svenskt, which went to pretty strong town when he replaced out. Prior to that I was willing to wait a day and see how my read shaped up. Our vote is on someone we agree looks scummy.

- f

Wait, wait, wait.
How does scum know he's miller?
Because, as far as I know, scum would only know who other scum is.
I guess he means that scum can infer that he's miller because they know he's town and he claimed miller?
Still, blah, I had a townread on sven and I'm way less sure about Rev.

Even so there is the possibility that there are multiple scum factions, although it may be unlikely given the size of the game. Rev is just being dumb, but it's too much of an uphill battle correcting every single hidden assumption that he makes.

- b

[²]

And Nacho, you're reading us as scum so you can shut up too.

sorry, i thought i was just sheeping mollie
but if i can take credit for your lynch, sweet!

You can write me a poem about how much of a fool you are when we flip town, how's that for a deal?

- b

[²]

Ok it was posh mafia where I played bulder. Here's a thought though... he says I was anti-town in a past game with him, but then goes on to say he can't remember which game it was... how can you remember the details of my performance if you can't even remember which game it was?

I remember nearly none of the names of the games in which I have participated but probably essentially all of the players I have ever played with and at least something about their behavior, and I remember your behavior being inherently anti-town. If I want to make sure that it is indeed a town tell, I'd need to confirm that you were indeed town in the game(s) we played together, but I really can't be bothered.

Also, it's not exactly a detailed description of your performance saying that you were anti-town.

the game you played with him I think was posh and you subbed in for a day and he is

not

an anti-town player. he was my rock in that game even if I couldn't get him to agree to an uber goober lynch.

making up fake meta is another ginormous scumtell btw

Good thing I'm not making up fake meta then, sunshine. You're reading anything I do as scummy no matter what, so please go away and bother someone else.

- b

[²]

umm I could think of several reasons for putting pressure on a town read, like to get them posting, to clarify your town read, to get them on board with a lynch of someone you think is scumz, are a few that come to mind.

And I can think of a trillion reasons not to.

- b

[²]

And Nacho, you're reading us as scum so you can shut up too.

sorry, i thought i was just sheeping mollie
but if i can take credit for your lynch, sweet!

You can write me a poem about how much of a fool you are when we flip town, how's that for a deal?

- b

can't do that here, sorry
only off-site or between hydra heads
i can write you poetry if you like though

What's the difference between a poem and a poetry?

- b

[²]

Nothing. I was saying that I could write you a poem regardless of your alignment, not that I could accept the deal if I wrote poetry instead of a poem.

Fine, I'll simply not accept your poem if I flip scum. Problem solved.

- b

[²]

And Nacho, you're reading us as scum so you can shut up too.

sorry, i thought i was just sheeping mollie
but if i can take credit for your lynch, sweet!

nacho, buldey is in what we call at tr "eat a dick town!" mode. that is what he is starting to look like

mollie I still love you ♥

[²]

Ok it was posh mafia where I played bulder. Here's a thought though... he says I was anti-town in a past game with him, but then goes on to say he can't remember which game it was... how can you remember the details of my performance if you can't even remember which game it was?

I remember nearly none of the names of the games in which I have participated but probably essentially all of the players I have ever played with and at least something about their behavior, and I remember your behavior being inherently anti-town. If I want to make sure that it is indeed a town tell, I'd need to confirm that you were indeed town in the game(s) we played together, but I really can't be bothered.

Also, it's not exactly a detailed description of your performance saying that you were anti-town.

the game you played with him I think was posh and you subbed in for a day and he is

not

an anti-town player. he was my rock in that game even if I couldn't get him to agree to an uber goober lynch.

making up fake meta is another ginormous scumtell btw

Good thing I'm not making up fake meta then, sunshine. You're reading anything I do as scummy no matter what, so please go away and bother someone else.

- b

then go find the game and tell me what rev did that was anti-town. cos he is most definitely NOT what I would call an anti-town player

Do you agree or disagree with the premise that he's playing anti-town this game?

- b

[²]

wrong.

- f

[²]

wrong.

- f

So, then, who is scum?

TMT. Setting aside that horrible waste of a meta dive that Nacho provoked and just looking at his posts in this game, I think AJ is scum. MS is leaning scum for me, but buldermar thinks he's solid scum. My 4th would be TD. I'd give Nacho more weight on that one but between him letting me flounder around in old Aj games and having a shit read on us this game, I don't think I'll be weighing his read all that heavily wrt to my own reactions to TD's posts.

- f

gah

[²]

i would love if we could have a read-meshing session soon, actually. i liked your meta dive on AJ so I'm gonna listen to you and troll buldermar. it'll be useless wheel-spinning if you're scum, but it'll actually help me out by leaps and bounds. don't shut down on me because i think you're scum since this is actually the towniest game i've ever played in my life so you know I have good intentions.

I don't shut down. I think you know that.

- f

[²]

IMO, the worst case is a list of reads and impressions by a confirmed town player at the end of the day.

- f

[²]

rethink TD.

Where is MS in your list?

[²]

MS is in the leaning town pile, I've thought a lot on TD but nothing to him being scum has sold me yet. What are your personal reasons?

I don't have MS leaning town. He's probably the weakest of my scum reads. buldermar's read is stronger. the observation about 30 pages in 15 minutes was a moment of whoa for me. I am a pretty fast reader, but I can't touch that reading a game thread.

TD's fluff to content ratio is terrible. I think most of post 906 is shit. There was precious little trajectory to the Ghostlin vote. The MS vote was reactive. gut, though, says neither are bussing, so I am either wrong about that or wrong about at least one other read.

[²]

wrong.

- f

So, then, who is scum?

TMT. Setting aside that horrible waste of a meta dive that Nacho provoked and just looking at his posts in this game, I think AJ is scum. MS is leaning scum for me, but buldermar thinks he's solid scum.

My 4th would be TD.

I'd give Nacho more weight on that one but between him letting me flounder around in old Aj games and having a shit read on us this game, I don't think I'll be weighing his read all that heavily wrt to my own reactions to TD's posts.

- f

the bolded wording of this post sounds weird. like you

know

there are 4 scum. I'm pretty sure I've seen you do it earlier too.

Right now I don't have a fifth scum read. I have some nulls. But, 4 scum in a game of 20 players sounds about right to me. Smallest number I have ever seen in a game this size was three scum. Oddly enough, they won. it was a hell of a scum team.

[²]

wrong.

- f

So, then, who is scum?

TMT. Setting aside that horrible waste of a meta dive that Nacho provoked and just looking at his posts in this game, I think AJ is scum. MS is leaning scum for me, but buldermar thinks he's solid scum. My 4th would be TD. I'd give Nacho more weight on that one but between him letting me flounder around in old Aj games and having a shit read on us this game, I don't think I'll be weighing his read all that heavily wrt to my own reactions to TD's posts.

- f

this is weak cos you are not trying to find the head before the ass

you are going after low hanging fruit

You know more about them reputation-wise than I do. It's one of the reasons why I lean on the reads of players that I know in games right now.

- f

[²]

Makes me think--in a Lylo situation, all players could quote their role PMs directly, and the one guy who isn't modkilled is the scum, because he would have to lie or be modkilled. Then again, I guess if everyone is modkilled, there's no one to lynch the remaining scum.

WHAT THE FUCK. WHY WOULD YOUR BRAIN EVEN GO HERE??

I am some sort of evil genius, or absolute retard, according to 2.


Anyway, let's lynch 2.
VOTE: 2

2, you're scum, right?

Please don't waste my time.

- b

[²]

and i will always listen to you even if i have to lynch you
no matter what <3

That's sort of a paradox, don't you think?

- b

[²]

I don't have MS leaning town. He's probably the weakest of my scum reads. buldermar's read is stronger. the observation about 30 pages in 15 minutes was a moment of whoa for me. I am a pretty fast reader, but I can't touch that reading a game thread.

He's not reading, but that's pretty normal for him.

He also made a list of 7 town reads and 1 scum read in these 15 minutes.

- b

[²]

I think he is playing genuinely after subbing into a lengthy game where he does not understand the dynamics <----- not anti-town in my book. YMMV

So why the hell do you want me to show that he previously played anti-town when we don't even agree on what constitutes playing anti-town in the first place?

- b

[²]

I want to establish that you can point to where you thought he was being anti-town

I can't point to where exactly I established that impression of him. Like I said; I recall him being anti-town in previous games - that's it.

- b

[²]

buldey is ffery around?

I'll check.

- b

[²]

She's on her way.

Why don't you want to play with me anymore?

- b

[²]

She's on her way.

Why don't you want to play with me anymore?

- b

because you're in "fuck you" mode and ffery will be nicer to me

But there has to be room for disagreements in a strong relationship, right?

- b

[²]

and i've been ignoring her a little, where i tried to reach out to you so many times and you never did what i wanted you to do

What did you want me to do?

- b

[²]

She's on her way.

Why don't you want to play with me anymore?

- b

because you're in "fuck you" mode and ffery will be nicer to me

I'm in fuck you mode too, actually. But, I probably will be nicer about it.

- f

[²]

and i've been ignoring her a little, where i tried to reach out to you so many times and you never did what i wanted you to do

What did you want me to do?

- b

you don't want me to lynch you, right? do something that shows me you can't be scum.
make this game your highest priority. give me the best you've got.
you haven't done that. and you know that if you don't know that, i'm gonna trust mollie's meta read on ffery just as you would (or better, at least) trust ffery's read on mollie.

Okay. I'll try to do this, but I wasn't lying when I said I'm having exams currently. My last one is finished in about two weeks time from now. I feel like my head is also elsewhere, so even when I do spend time on games I still have in the back of my head that I should be working on my paper. I'll try my best and prioritize this game over others, though.

For now: good night.

- b

[²]

Alright, I'm ready. Gonna talk about AJ now.

Good. You said in post 948 that there was meta to your read but that it was mostly in thread. You want to go first? or me?