Micro 161: No-Newbie Newbie (over)

[²]

RVS is over!

[syndromeofatown]

okay, yep, goodmorning definitely town or really stupid scum

[thenewearth]

I think town, tbh

[N]

Prodded RachMarie.

Vote Count 1.09

RedCoyote

( 0 )

²

( 2 ) A_Stone , RedCoyote

A_Stone

( 2 ) syndromeofatown , ²

thenewearth

( 1 ) Mr E Roll

syndromeofatown

( 1 ) goodmorning

Mr E Roll

( 1 ) thenewearth

goodmorning

( 1 ) RachMarie

RachMarie

( 0 )

EspeciallyTheLies

( 0 )

Not voting:

EspeciallyTheLies

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Deadline is in

(expired on 2013-05-14 21:34:45)

A_Stone is V/LA until Wednesday.

[thenewearth]

@Mod: V/LA for probably and unknown number of days. Laptop issues ans shiz

[A_Stone]

Spoiler:

You've only done it once, I feel stupid now :/

At least you're being honest about your exaggeration now.

- b

Yeah, sorry guys, I legitimately thought you did it a lot :/, we live and we learn.

It is coherent already, but I'll rephrase it in a way I think you'll understand. If you base your vote on my avatar, it's not random. If you insist that a vote can be random when it's based on something (it being an avatar or an estimation of an alignment), I can just as well insist that my vote is random when it's based on my estimation of your alignment.

- b

Oh, I see what you mean now.

My vote was a joke vote, a joke is not inherently serious, and therefore it is random.

Why would a joke vote be serious?

This is backwards.

If it is advantageous for scum-us not to random vote because we havn't done it as town before, that merely reflects you being incapable of properly analysing previous games that we've played. That is, you're not applying the information you have optimally. This holds true for any circumstances where the lack of that very information would leave to a better decision than the decision made with the information available, and this is an example.

- b

I meant it more as if you had posted an RVS, you would have been playing against your established meta and it would have raised more heads than was optimal for Scum-2. Whereas having not done RVS it was pretty much understood as a null read because you always do it.

Firstly, I was responding to RedCayot, not SoaT. Secondly, even if I was responding to SoaT, I may not have realized what the abbreviation meant because I was responding to the person through the quote of another person (i.e., I didn't make that abbreviation myself).

Yeah, I know that, my post snipping was a bit rigid :/

Finally, and most importantly, what would the scum motivation for acting as if I don't understand that abbreviation if I actually did be?

It looked off to me? I thought it was unnecessary, it was obviously a player and I didn't see why it needed to be asked.

I didn't say it was necessarily scummy, I just saw no reason to ask it.

I think you're pretending to think that you've found something to launch some sort of attack on us. I think your process went something like this: you read all of our posts in ISO, and decided to attack anything you could find. You noticed this and thought "hey, this could be a great thing to attack" without thinking about whether it actually made any sense from a scum perspective. Why did you do that? It's a subtle scum-slip, but people make it all the time. As scum, they forget the fact that your motivation shouldn't be winning arguments, launching attacks or finding mistakes, but look at posts that can only be motivated by a scum perspective. You fall victim of a) launching an attack that completely ignores what potentially would be scum motivated and what wouldn't, b) aims at finding mistakes (such as me not realizing what SoaT was an abbreviation of - despite it being obvious that there couldn't be any scum motivation for pretending to have missed this), and possible c) aimed at winning arguments (although this one is more debatable).

Thank God that isn't what I was doing.

Buldermar and I don't consult each other on every single post. We are playing this game as though we're masons who share a single vote. When we are speaking for each other or speaking about our consensus about game events or players, we'll make that clear. When we are not speaking for each other, we'll try to make that clear as well.

We are in agreement about our vote.

-f

Oh.

I guess that makes sense :3

Seems off to me. It was obviously a player, why did the question need to be asked?

It wasn't obvious to me, or I wouldn't have asked it. Again: what's the scum motivation behind pretending not to know what it meant? Why would scum-me be less likely to know what it meant than town-me? These are two questions that must be answered in order to justify you thinking that it "seems off". If you don't answer these questions, I'm inclined to think that the "seems off" part is just putting seeds out there and hoping that people jumps on this.

- b

But you asked it after seeing this

Then, followed by this to SoaT, who was already giving me scumvibes:

I think I've made it pretty clear already what I want you to do, and I don't buy that you've somehow missed it.

I suppose a more apt word for what I meant by off was *interesting*

I thought that after seeing this post, and other posts mentioning soat, you would have garnered the meaning of soat.

I spoilered the large parts of that post, hope you guys don't mind.

UNVOTE:

I think I'll unvote now that RVS is over.

I really didn't like Roll's response to TNE's vote, especially #222, it was a direct contradiction with TNE's reads, if I read it right.

The whole TNE-MER discussion after the vote seemed forced to me, I'm not really sure what to think about it though.

I didn't say you were voting them. I asked you why I shouldn't vote them, since you wanted to know why I should.

What I meant is why you wanted to vote squared.

As I said, it was a random vote. I was attempting a reaction test and nobody even gave a shit. I wanted to know why you were so interested in my vote since I'd explained it was a random vote, and further whether you would have any reason I shouldn't vote them.

As for your reads post: I like. Definitely good stuff AND you brought up something I'd forgotten about: Mr E.
I am not really sure where I read him, but his arguments on soat are strong. How strong? Well, I'll leave that unanswered for the time being, but it's an interesting thing to look at later on. ESPECIALLY if we have a soat flip.

Vote: soat

I have a scumread on soat. I have light townreads on tne and Rach. I have a mediumish Townread on 2. Everyone else I cannot say or guess.

Would you please explain your scumread on soat?

I thought his easygoing attitude was townish.

I'd like to see some more from the other players (RC, Rach, ETL) etc.

----------------------------------------------------------------

[goodmorning]

Would you please explain your scumread on soat?

Yes, though I don't really have the time to go too in-depth.
For a start, the way 29 was handled. That type of reaction test makes me vaguely suspicious to begin with because it's so blatant, and the way this one was handled in particular is bad bad bad. The move of votes in 86 was even worse worse worse. 112 misses the fact that Stone's very next post explained the joke for those who didn't get it. And a YMMV point: His strong Townread on Mr E (221).

As for your easygoing attitude thing... I personally find that Scum players tend to be slightly more relaxed but this is largely just one's playstyle and not really a tell IMO.

[goodmorning]

Question for everyone: What is your read on Mr E?

[RachMarie]

sorry for not posting all

Still working on my reads Squared...

GM I see Mr E as prob town. that whole why are you not voting me and then after dude votes saying now why what is your case ? is definitely totes town points. in looking at his ISO, he seems to be trying to push for activity and some preliminary scum hunting.

[RedCoyote]

How is that not the same as flooding the thread with silliness?

Look, I am not going to have a debate on terminology with you. Active lurking = posting very rarely (sort of like me, lol) with little content (hopefully not like me).

---

Why do you make posts like this, your posts as a hydra

should

be seamless, why do you see a need to reinforce your views?

Thank you.

Again? You've said that you two are talking together in chat. Why are you making posts explicitly for the purpose of looking town? Is that not something more likely for scum to do?

Thank you x2. I agree with both of these sentiments 100%.

² is working overtime to let us know he's town. I don't need him to tell me he's town. I don't need one head agreeing with the other head. That's just noise. That's cluttering the thread with junk.

---

^^ leave should be lead.

I don't know what this means. What leave? What should be lead? Should I only listen to -f and not -b?

Why are you making 9 posts in a row? Posts like 178 and 179 are absolute garbage posts that only exist to needlessly inflate your post count and reduce the overall readability of the thread.

Maybe you posting 10 times more than every other player fools tne and goodmorning, but it sure as hell doesn't fool me. Quality > quantity.

---

Ok, now explain the vote and then explain why you had to be prompted to vote your scumspect.

I like this point.

[²]

These are fferyllt reads. buldermar and I talked about our reads around page 6 but haven't had a comprehensive discussion since then - just tactical discussion about specific posts/players. I'll be surprised if our reads are radically different.

Leaning town

Red Coyote
Especially the Lies

Null/Town

Goodmorning
Mr E Roll

Null

Rach
soat (this one fell overnight)
TheNewEarth (this one fell recently)

Null/Scum

A Stone

[syndromeofatown]

RachMarie tell me right now exactly what you think of 2 thanks

[A_Stone]

Btw, 2, the Spoilered part of my post was addressed to you

[A_Stone]

@gm I liked the stuff at the beginning, I'm not sure what to think about after the tne vote though, looked p forced to me.
Did anyone else feel that way?

[A_Stone]

Hmm, I usually find an easygoing attitude to be town, do you have any meta where this isn't the case?

[Mr E Roll]

I really didn't like Roll's response to TNE's vote, especially #222, it was a direct contradiction with TNE's reads, if I read it right.

The whole TNE-MER discussion after the vote seemed forced to me, I'm not really sure what to think about it though.

Post 222 is a contradiction of TNE’s reads but not of his case.

TNE is calling me scum because of my interaction with 2. He seems to believe that I’m over zealous in defending 2 and refer to him too often. I asked him to explain the vote but he refused to go into any further detail so I had to analyze it myself. Scum motivation for defending another player is either to get town credit when that player flips town or to protect a scum buddy. Based on post 220 I inferred that TNE believed it was the latter.

Also... Scratch that "It depends" Thing on you.

Squared is the "it depends" actually

What does this post say if it doesn’t say depending on if I flip scum Squared is scum?

I’m really confident of my scum read on TNE. I’m still not seeing any real scum hunting on his part. And he is really playing in a risk adverse way, he even had to be pressured to vote his scum read. In fact I’m sure he made post 220 intentionally knowing that I would flip town giving him a ready made excuse not to engage 2.

[goodmorning]

@Stone: Not off the top of my head.

@Mr E: Why are you assuming you'll flip? Why mention flips now?

[Mr E Roll]

[quote="In post 241, goodmorning
@Mr E: Why are you assuming you'll flip? Why mention flips now?[/quote]

I assume I’ll flip because by my nature I’m a pessimist and expect the worst.

I mention flips because that was what TNE’s reads/case on 2 seemed to be based on.

[²]

What about it?

I liked the post. I can't remember if buldermar also thought it seemed to come from a town PoV. I think so.

- f

I'm undecided, put if you put a gun to my head I'd say from a town PoV.

- b

[²]

As I said, it was a random vote. I was attempting a reaction test and nobody even gave a shit.

Surprisingly, nobody gives a shit about a vote that has been placed for a random/arbitrary reason.

- b

[goodmorning]

When I said it was serious, that was a reaction test.

[²]

My vote was a joke vote, a joke is not inherently serious, and therefore it is random.

A non-serious joke does not automatically make for a random joke, but we're done with discussing the term "randomness". I'm aware of how you apply it, I just disagree with that application.

- b

[²]

It looked off to me? I thought it was unnecessary, it was obviously a player and I didn't see why it needed to be asked.

I didn't say it was necessarily scummy, I just saw no reason to ask it.

You were clearly insinuating that this would be a scum-tell. Saying "it looked off" does not satisfy my question about what the scum motivation would be. For it to be a scum-tell, it has to be motivated by alignment. If it looks equally off when it comes from town and scum, what is then the purpose of pointing it out? I don't buy this explanation. You tried to sell it as a scum-tell, and now you're retracting it and asserting that you merely thought it looked off and wasn't worried about it coming from town or scum.

- b

[²]

Thank God that isn't what I was doing.

I think it was.

[²]

I suppose a more apt word for what I meant by off was *interesting*

I thought that after seeing this post, and other posts mentioning soat, you would have garnered the meaning of soat.

You tried to pass it off as a scum-tell: this is backpedaling.

- b