Mini 391 - Fairytale Mafia, Game Over

[IH]

Do you like the cupholders?

Also, Rathyr, Dodgy, and Echo(and possibly wolfsbane), I know you stated your stance on PBPA's, but you could just be doing this to avoid posting anything worthwhile. Would you at least skim them for us, and see if anything jumps out at you, or... something.

I just don't like the idea of you guys sitting out with the excuse "There's no point in posting, long PBP's turn me off".

[Seol]

To cut a long story short, I'm basically done with Luckay for now. The main thing I wanted was the reasons why he expressed support of GC and myself - I've got that now. I'm largely happy with his response - as I suspected, it's naive. IH has detailed many of the holes in your thought process and most of them are regular noob misconceptions. However, to reference another key noob misconception,

being wrong isn't scummy.

Anything else about strategy, I'll discuss in more detail after the game.

What I'm not happy about is how long it took to get it out of you - why were you so reluctant to share this? Just so you know, one of the most useful words for the town is "Why?". Analysing positions is powerful, but not nearly as good as analysing

motivations

. Don't hold back on the why - it looks like you don't know why, or to put it another way, you haven't fabricated a good town-aligned reason for your actions.

unvote

, there's a few other things I want to reference.

[Seol]

A couple of other things that got my attention:

Echo -

As for GC/LL, meh. Seems like they're jumping on each other for small reasons.

It appears to me that LL and GC are still attacking each other for relatively small reasons. Punctuation, who said what and what they meant by it, etc. It isn't those reasons in themselves, just that they don't have much backing. I suspect big fights from small reasons.

Seol and GC, I think appear to me to be a couple townies drawn into a fight. The original argument was a bit flimsy, but now everyone's tearing into each other, over posts that were part of that argument. It just builds on itself, and yet it isn't that productive IMO.

9/10, it's two townies convinced the other is scum, maybe subtley egged on by others, and not neccessarily scum either

Recurring theme slightly? GC called Echo after he did it

once

, which may have been premature, but there's been a hell of a lot of talk without really taking any positions - I don't just mean votes here, but he doesn't try to advance any arguments or ask any questions or

anything

(apart from voting Luckay after it becomes apparent he's basically talking nonsense), just "this talk is about little things" comments.

And yes, the discussion was over minor things - that's a big part of my technique. The scale of the offence is only of marginal importance because I'm not as interested in

what

they did as

why

. The original issue is generally just a seed to get someone arguing and justifying something,

anything

- and it's how they argue that's enlightening. And on day 1, you only get little things to attack anyway.

This, however, I can understand:

I dunno about everyone esle, but I tend to ignore those epic point-by-point battles- the intricacies are insignificant to all but those directly involved, and it's a ton to read. 9/10, it's two townies convinced the other is scum, maybe subtley egged on by others, and not neccessarily scum either- there are people who can read and analyze these kinds of arguments. I know I can't, and it appears others dislike it as well.

This style (PBPB) can be effective, but it's also selfish. This is, after all, a game - it should be fun, and too many posts that are too big can turn the game into a chore. I've stopped playing on certain sites because there are too many posts, so it becomes a pain to keep up, so I can certainly sympathise. Also, I've been away from Mafia for a bit and I was itching to get into a logical rampage almost for the sake of it.

One reason Seol might do this is that lengthy analysis often has the effect of impressing people with the player's protown credentials. It is simply harder to believe that a scum player would take so much time to do an analysis. So by getting one in at a very early stage Seol could plant the seed of his probable goodness in all our minds.

Are you saying I'm too townie?

Seol, in the absence of any search facilities can I ask you to name other games where you've made posts like this at such an early stage?

Two which pop to mind are Newbie 73 and Band Mafia, but neither are perfect comparisons because neither was PBPing out of the blue over the random banter stage. I only recall those because they're my first game and most recent (finished) game here respectively.

[Echo419]

Seol, I like to stay consistent...
I dunno... I was a bit interested in seeing LL's apparently mindblowing post. Looking back, most of my reasons for voting him were based on playstyle... which is aggravating, as it's such an easy excuse. I'll keep my vote there for now. I really don't like the whole mason thing.
I dislike Day 1. The problem is there isn't really much going on, yet we still have to get some discussion going. Too often scum slipups and town mistakes look similar. Be that as it may, I'll try to tkae a look at those monstrosities.
Any luck on yellow's replacement?

[LuckayLuck]

TIME FOR THE MINDBLOWING POST!!

I'm largely happy with his response

YEAHHHHHHHHHHHHH We're finally masons!!!!

as I suspected, it's naive

Ignoring this part!


Presenting, for the first time ever on mafiascum, the Excel spreadsheet of doom!




Thoughts:
bird1111, Ripley, and wolfsbane - post more so I can peer into your soul.
yeloowbounder, jl2704 - be active

Echo419 is a townie based on his posts. Similar reasoning to that of Seol's. Obviously different type of style/timing/townie tells for him as he's a very different person than Seol, but Echo is a townie.

[Echo419]

...lol...
Of course it's a lot harder to argue with someone who agrees with you...
Now I have a tough decision- keep attacking LL, even though he has me pegged as protown? Or back off and be seen as a person easily mollified? I will decide tomorrow.

In RL time, obv.

[wolfsbane]

It looks like to get a 9.5 rating on LL's spreadsheet of doom you just need to attack him - pretty convenient if he's scum. I think the spreadsheet of doom is bogus. LL acts scummy and the people who attack him are pro-town. It is hard to argue with that. I agree with whoever said that you can't bait with scummy behavior. If LL is town then scum could easily put on their best townie act. I'm not convinced that LL could tell the difference. Against LL's crazy antics you can't tell what is scummy and what isn't anymore. There is one easy way to remedy this situation though.

I think Seol brought up an interesting point about Echo. It seems like he wants to tie GC and Seol together for some reason. I don't see this connection. Why are these the same two players that LL chose for his wacky mason scheme? I don't see the connection between GC and Seol and why it helps us to think that they are both town. Echo seems too happy with this really messed up situation.

Unvote, Vote: Echo419

[LuckayLuck]

It looks like to get a 9.5 rating on LL's spreadsheet of doom you just need to attack him - pretty convenient if he's scum. I think the spreadsheet of doom is bogus. LL acts scummy and the people who attack him are pro-town. It is hard to argue with that. I agree with whoever said that you can't bait with scummy behavior. If LL is town then scum could easily put on their best townie act. I'm not convinced that LL could tell the difference. Against LL's crazy antics you can't tell what is scummy and what isn't anymore. There is one easy way to remedy this situation though.

WRONG!
IH has attacked me with just as much vigor as GC / Seol. However, it's all about timing, context...stuff like that. IH has not rang my townie bell.

Ditto Ripley, who I'm unsure of.

[Seol]

Seol, I like to stay consistent...

Consistently scummy?

Looking back, most of my reasons for voting him were based on playstyle... which is aggravating, as it's such an easy excuse. I'll keep my vote there for now. I really don't like the whole mason thing.

Do you think it's scummy (as opposed to poor play)?

I dislike Day 1. The problem is there isn't really much going on, yet we still have to get some discussion going.

That's why we're "jumping on each other for small reasons" - we don't have much to go on, so we're discussing what there is.

Too often scum slipups and town mistakes look similar.

That's why the cross-examinations are necessary, or at the very least useful.

YEAHHHHHHHHHHHHH We're finally masons!!!!

You really want me to hate you, don't you?

Presenting, for the first time ever on mafiascum, the Excel spreadsheet of doom!

Which catalogues nothing more than vibes and vague impressions (at this point). A useful tool, sure, it helps organise the mind, but nothing remotely mindblowing (you want to see mindblowing, check out the Hardboiled Mafia Tool at Misetings).

Of course it's a lot harder to argue with someone who agrees with you...

Define "agree". If they agree with the subject of the argument, there's nothing to argue about. If they agree with you on a different topic, that's irrelevant to the first argument.

Now I have a tough decision- keep attacking LL, even though he has me pegged as protown?

Why does his saying he thinks you're pro-town make you want to stop attacking him? Does it make you think he's more likely to be pro-town?

If LL is town then scum could easily put on their best townie act. I'm not convinced that LL could tell the difference.

Certainly his arguments so far are poor, and don't exactly fill me with confidence in his assessments.

Against LL's crazy antics you can't tell what is scummy and what isn't anymore.

That's what I meant when I said his strategy was undermining the town.

think Seol brought up an interesting point about Echo. It seems like he wants to tie GC and Seol together for some reason. I don't see this connection.

Where do you get that idea from? The bits I quoted referred GC/LL twice, GC/myself once and the general case once. Why/how do you think it looks like he's tying me and GC together?

Echo seems too happy with this really messed up situation.

Exactly - it smacks of opportunism. Furthermore, I really don't like Echo talking about backing off LL because LL has Echo green.

vote: Echo

[spectrumvoid]

Hi everyone. I'm replacing in. Just give me till tomorrow to look through everything. I skimmed through a little, and I really don't like people who choose not to go through PBPAs. I've have content later.

[LuckayLuck]

Hi everyone. I'm replacing in. Just give me till tomorrow to look through everything. I skimmed through a little, and I really don't like people who choose not to go through PBPAs. I've have content later.

It should be fun.
P.S. are you replacing jl240556234 or yellowboudner?

[Ripley]

I hope my post made clear the distinction between :

1. a PBPA. which I took to mean a post that analyzes a number of different posts, maybe but not necessarily by a single player, and addressed to everybody, and

2. what I called a PBPR (later called PBPB by others), the defining characteristics of this being that it is addressed to a single player, and responds, point by point, and often in excruciating detail, to points made by that player, also usually in a single post. This is the kind of post I meant when I said the following:

I can't promise to give future PBPRs, that are addressed to other players and on issues I don't think interesting or relevant, the kind of close scrutiny I would normally give to every post in a game. (And I suspect I may not be the only one.)

The responses from Rathyr, Dodgy and Echo (which seemed to support the suggestion that I'm not the only one) also, I think, referred to that kind of post. Echo's description of "epic point-by-point battles, the intricacies insignificant to all but those directly involved" makes it certain that he was, at any rate. But then IH:

I'm a big supporter of PBP's myself. It helps me organize my thoughts, and I can make connections better, but they are only useful once in a while.

Also, Rathyr, Dodgy, and Echo(and possibly wolfsbane), I know you stated your stance on PBPA's, but you could just be doing this to avoid posting anything worthwhile. Would you at least skim them for us, and see if anything jumps out at you, or... something.

I just don't like the idea of you guys sitting out with the excuse "There's no point in posting, long PBP's turn me off".

... seems to be referring to the traditional PBPA-type post. Seol sees the distinction:

This style (PBPB) can be effective, but it's also selfish. This is, after all, a game - it should be fun, and too many posts that are too big can turn the game into a chore.

but spectrumvoid doesn't:

I skimmed through a little, and I really don't like people who choose not to go through PBPAs.

I really don't think people have said that.

More things I need to respond to, which I'll try to do later tonight.

[Echo419]

Consistently scummy?

Consistently supporting my causes.

Do you think it's scummy (as opposed to poor play)?

That's just the problem. It's hard to tell.

Why does his saying he thinks you're pro-town make you want to stop attacking him? Does it make you think he's more likely to be pro-town?

Because attacking him undermines my own integrity. Attacking someone who thinks well of you means I have one less supporter.
Great. Now I'm a hypocrite.

Unvote LL

I've decided, after looking him over, it's his playstlye, and not inherent scumminess. Unfortunately I can see scum WIFOMing this a lot in future days... beware.
Seol, I have questions for you.
Are you voting me because I'm scummy, or because you think I'm good lynch?
Are you attacking me because I stopped going after LL, your quarry, or because of the reasons for it?
What is your opinion on Day 1 lynches? Go for most informative or most scummy? Do you see a difference? How much?

[chaotic_diablo]

Anyway, for those who don't know, spectrumvoid will be replacing yellowbounder.

[Ripley]

Are you saying I'm too townie?

Not at all. Writing such a detailed analysis at such an early stage was not necessarily good for the game, and may actually have been harmful: focusing attention on the few people who had posted most, starting a trend for epic PBPBs that clogged the game, causing uninvolved people to pay less attention to the details of what was going on. (While at the same time tagging you as probably protown in people's minds.) So I was interested to know if you had previously done this so early as a protown player. I looked at the two games you linked to. In one of them you did indeed make some massive posts. starting on page 4 when the game had been going for just over a week. (In Band Mafia you were much quieter. In fact you didn't post at all. This seems very out of character. Maybe you were operating under an assumed name?)

In any case, this rings true:

Also, I've been away from Mafia for a bit and I was itching to get into a logical rampage almost for the sake of it.

... so I'll leave it at that.

LuckayLuck. It seems from your frequent references to timing that this is a key feature of your townie-detection methods. Surely in a game like this, the timing of posts is determined more than anything by people's schedules and when they're able to find time for Mafia? Or are all your deductions of this nature along the same lines as the one you've described to us, that is: "a mafioso would never make this post so soon, therefore I have found another townie"...?

I think Seol brought up an interesting point about Echo. It seems like he wants to tie GC and Seol together for some reason. I don't see this connection. Why are these the same two players that LL chose for his wacky mason scheme? I don't see the connection between GC and Seol and why it helps us to think that they are both town. Echo seems too happy with this really messed up situation.

As Seol has already pointed out, this isn't right. Echo makes only one reference to GC and Seol as a pair, a reference which isn't unreasonable considering the amount of interaction between them. The GC/Seol thing did pretty much dry up in post 90, which is a while before Echo posts (post 105), but it's his first post since they stopped so I don't see anything odd about it,, certainly not the nefarious artificial linkage that you seem to be suggesting.

Welcome to the game btw spectrum.

[IH]

Another game with Spectrumvoid? = D Why don't you replace into PS2sux too!

Also... Luckay, how did you determine each persons position on your spreadsheet? Or is that information you're not willing to part with?

[LuckayLuck]

IH - each person's position is depended on number and strength of villager and mafia tells.

[wolfsbane]

Whoa... content!

Seol and GC, I think appear to me to be a couple townies drawn into a fight.

The original argument was a bit flimsy, but now everyone's tearing into each other, over posts that were part of that argument. It just builds on itself, and yet it isn't that productive IMO...

(italics mine)

Okay, I shouldn't have tried to recycle Seol's quotes. I wanted to talk about the post quoted above and saw that Seol had already found it. What I was trying to say is slightly different that what Seol was using the quotes for.
Here is a better explanation of my position.
Once, Echo says Seol and GC look like two townies as shown in the quote above. I interpreted Echo's "9/10 times it's two townies" statement as support of his GC and Seol are townies position, but I can't really prove what his intent was. The important difference is that Echo says "LL and GC are fighting over small things" not that they are townies fighting. When he talks about GC / Seol the wording is "two townies". That slight difference is what I found strange.

[Seol]

Once, Echo says Seol and GC look like two townies as shown in the quote above. I interpreted Echo's "9/10 times it's two townies" statement as support of his GC and Seol are townies position, but I can't really prove what his intent was. The important difference is that Echo says "LL and GC are fighting over small things" not that they are townies fighting. When he talks about GC / Seol the wording is "two townies". That slight difference is what I found strange.

OK, I see how he's saying we're both town, I don't see how he "wants to tie [us] together" (apart from thinking we're both town).

In Band Mafia you were much quieter. In fact you didn't post at all. This seems very out of character. Maybe you were operating under an assumed name?

I knew I forgot something - I was playing as Rainbow Brite in that game.

Because attacking him undermines my own integrity. Attacking someone who thinks well of you means I have one less supporter.

And what has that got to do with integrity? Are you conceding that it did

not

lead you to believe he was less likely to be scum, and agreeing that you were considering backing off because you were more concerned about how other people view you than finding scum?

Are you voting me because I'm scummy, or because you think I'm good lynch?

What's the difference?

I'm voting you because I find you suspicious, because your stated motives don't seem to be town-aligned to me. I'm not ready to lynch anyone yet.

Are you attacking me because I stopped going after LL, your quarry, or because of the reasons for it?

Firstly, I'm attacking you about backing off LL because of your reasons. Secondly, that's a hell of a loaded question embedded there - "Are you attacking me because I stopped going after LL, your quarry?". Why do you describe LL as "my quarry"?

What is your opinion on Day 1 lynches? Go for most informative or most scummy? Do you see a difference? How much?

I'm wary of any justification for a lynch that isn't about scumminess, and not just on day 1 - this is often used by scum to justify lynching someone when they can't do it any other way. This is particularly true on Day 1 when any "connections" are invariably very tenuous. I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "go[ing] for the most informative [lynch]" here, though, could you clarify please?

IH - each person's position is depended on number and strength of villager and mafia tells.

This is about as useful as saying "each person's position is dependent on how scummy they seem". You haven't actually told us anything.

[LuckayLuck]

IH - each person's position is depended on number and strength of villager and mafia tells.

This is about as useful as saying "each person's position is dependent on how scummy they seem". You haven't actually told us anything.

I haven't encountered any villager/mafia tells that are worth noting, defending, and explaining yet besides Echo, GC, and Seol. the 6's/5's/4's mean nothing else than "how scummy they seem" and is almost meaningless other than slight personal opinion towards leaning town /leaning mafia.

[Echo419]

Seol, I'd hate to get into a quote war, so I'm replying in paragraph form. I don't like attacking people who think I'm town because if they are town, then they might very well be less likely to support me later. It could be a critical schism. As for the lynch question, I was wondering if you want to lynch me or are simply expressing your opinion of me in vote form. I describe LL as your quarry because before me, he was the person you were engaged in a semi-battle with. As for informative lynches, I've read games where because they couldn't reach a scumminess consensus, people decided to lynch based on connections and voting patterns, and also to see how it would influence the nightkill.
Raythr's last post was Sunday the 3rd, and it was a non-content post. Prod?

[chaotic_diablo]

I am looking for a replacement for jl2704 and Dodgy has asked for a replacement.

[Rathyr]

ok.

[Echo419]

Raythr, post something! It's been almost a week!

[Rathyr]

Sorry, but I really don't have much to say at this point.

I'm playing three other games at this time, and currently in this game no one seems so much scummy as simply argumentative.