Mini 391 - Fairytale Mafia, Game Over
-
-
IH Always Scum
- Always Scum
- Always Scum
- Posts: 4247
- Joined: August 7, 2006
- Location: Atlanta, Ga
Do you like the cupholders?
Also, Rathyr, Dodgy, and Echo(and possibly wolfsbane), I know you stated your stance on PBPA's, but you could just be doing this to avoid posting anything worthwhile. Would you at least skim them for us, and see if anything jumps out at you, or... something.
I just don't like the idea of you guys sitting out with the excuse "There's no point in posting, long PBP's turn me off".Untrod Tripod (7:27:18 PM): you enjoy whoring
xcaykex (7:27:24 PM): yes
xcaykex (7:27:26 PM): i know that-
-
Seol Logical Rampage
- Logical Rampage
- Logical Rampage
- Posts: 1563
- Joined: November 26, 2004
- Location: In the wrong
To cut a long story short, I'm basically done with Luckay for now. The main thing I wanted was the reasons why he expressed support of GC and myself - I've got that now. I'm largely happy with his response - as I suspected, it's naive. IH has detailed many of the holes in your thought process and most of them are regular noob misconceptions. However, to reference another key noob misconception,being wrong isn't scummy.Anything else about strategy, I'll discuss in more detail after the game.
What I'm not happy about is how long it took to get it out of you - why were you so reluctant to share this? Just so you know, one of the most useful words for the town is "Why?". Analysing positions is powerful, but not nearly as good as analysingmotivations. Don't hold back on the why - it looks like you don't know why, or to put it another way, you haven't fabricated a good town-aligned reason for your actions.
unvote, there's a few other things I want to reference.[i]The hungry maw of Twilight snaps, but shall not have its fill,
Until one man hangs by his neck, by half this curs'd town's will[/i]-
-
Seol Logical Rampage
- Logical Rampage
- Logical Rampage
- Posts: 1563
- Joined: November 26, 2004
- Location: In the wrong
A couple of other things that got my attention:
Echo -As for GC/LL, meh. Seems like they're jumping on each other for small reasons.It appears to me that LL and GC are still attacking each other for relatively small reasons. Punctuation, who said what and what they meant by it, etc. It isn't those reasons in themselves, just that they don't have much backing. I suspect big fights from small reasons.Seol and GC, I think appear to me to be a couple townies drawn into a fight. The original argument was a bit flimsy, but now everyone's tearing into each other, over posts that were part of that argument. It just builds on itself, and yet it isn't that productive IMO.
Recurring theme slightly? GC called Echo after he did it9/10, it's two townies convinced the other is scum, maybe subtley egged on by others, and not neccessarily scum eitheronce, which may have been premature, but there's been a hell of a lot of talk without really taking any positions - I don't just mean votes here, but he doesn't try to advance any arguments or ask any questions oranything(apart from voting Luckay after it becomes apparent he's basically talking nonsense), just "this talk is about little things" comments.
And yes, the discussion was over minor things - that's a big part of my technique. The scale of the offence is only of marginal importance because I'm not as interested inwhatthey did aswhy. The original issue is generally just a seed to get someone arguing and justifying something,anything- and it's how they argue that's enlightening. And on day 1, you only get little things to attack anyway.
This, however, I can understand:
This style (PBPB) can be effective, but it's also selfish. This is, after all, a game - it should be fun, and too many posts that are too big can turn the game into a chore. I've stopped playing on certain sites because there are too many posts, so it becomes a pain to keep up, so I can certainly sympathise. Also, I've been away from Mafia for a bit and I was itching to get into a logical rampage almost for the sake of it.I dunno about everyone esle, but I tend to ignore those epic point-by-point battles- the intricacies are insignificant to all but those directly involved, and it's a ton to read. 9/10, it's two townies convinced the other is scum, maybe subtley egged on by others, and not neccessarily scum either- there are people who can read and analyze these kinds of arguments. I know I can't, and it appears others dislike it as well.
Are you saying I'm too townie?Ripley wrote:One reason Seol might do this is that lengthy analysis often has the effect of impressing people with the player's protown credentials. It is simply harder to believe that a scum player would take so much time to do an analysis. So by getting one in at a very early stage Seol could plant the seed of his probable goodness in all our minds.
Two which pop to mind are Newbie 73 and Band Mafia, but neither are perfect comparisons because neither was PBPing out of the blue over the random banter stage. I only recall those because they're my first game and most recent (finished) game here respectively.Ripley wrote:Seol, in the absence of any search facilities can I ask you to name other games where you've made posts like this at such an early stage?[i]The hungry maw of Twilight snaps, but shall not have its fill,
Until one man hangs by his neck, by half this curs'd town's will[/i]-
-
Echo419 Goon
- Goon
- Goon
- Posts: 215
- Joined: June 3, 2006
- Location: Finding Nemo
Seol, I like to stay consistent...
I dunno... I was a bit interested in seeing LL's apparently mindblowing post. Looking back, most of my reasons for voting him were based on playstyle... which is aggravating, as it's such an easy excuse. I'll keep my vote there for now. I really don't like the whole mason thing.
I dislike Day 1. The problem is there isn't really much going on, yet we still have to get some discussion going. Too often scum slipups and town mistakes look similar. Be that as it may, I'll try to tkae a look at those monstrosities.
Any luck on yellow's replacement?Showyeah, they're totally buying it.
oops, wrong window.
"Whoops, was that hammer?"- Pretty much everyone, at some point.-
-
LuckayLuck You're a townie
- You're a townie
- You're a townie
- Posts: 462
- Joined: October 7, 2006
TIME FOR THE MINDBLOWING POST!!
YEAHHHHHHHHHHHHH We're finally masons!!!!Seol wrote:I'm largely happy with his response
Ignoring this part!Seol wrote:as I suspected, it's naive
Presenting, for the first time ever on mafiascum, the Excel spreadsheet of doom!
Thoughts:
bird1111, Ripley, and wolfsbane - post more so I can peer into your soul.
yeloowbounder, jl2704 - be active
Echo419 is a townie based on his posts. Similar reasoning to that of Seol's. Obviously different type of style/timing/townie tells for him as he's a very different person than Seol, but Echo is a townie.-
-
Echo419 Goon
- Goon
- Goon
- Posts: 215
- Joined: June 3, 2006
- Location: Finding Nemo
...lol...
Of course it's a lot harder to argue with someone who agrees with you...
Now I have a tough decision- keep attacking LL, even though he has me pegged as protown? Or back off and be seen as a person easily mollified? I will decide tomorrow.
In RL time, obv.Showyeah, they're totally buying it.
oops, wrong window.
"Whoops, was that hammer?"- Pretty much everyone, at some point.-
-
wolfsbane Goon
- Goon
- Goon
- Posts: 223
- Joined: May 25, 2006
- Location: Hungary
It looks like to get a 9.5 rating on LL's spreadsheet of doom you just need to attack him - pretty convenient if he's scum. I think the spreadsheet of doom is bogus. LL acts scummy and the people who attack him are pro-town. It is hard to argue with that. I agree with whoever said that you can't bait with scummy behavior. If LL is town then scum could easily put on their best townie act. I'm not convinced that LL could tell the difference. Against LL's crazy antics you can't tell what is scummy and what isn't anymore. There is one easy way to remedy this situation though.
I think Seol brought up an interesting point about Echo. It seems like he wants to tie GC and Seol together for some reason. I don't see this connection. Why are these the same two players that LL chose for his wacky mason scheme? I don't see the connection between GC and Seol and why it helps us to think that they are both town. Echo seems too happy with this really messed up situation.
Unvote, Vote: Echo419-
-
LuckayLuck You're a townie
- You're a townie
- You're a townie
- Posts: 462
- Joined: October 7, 2006
WRONG!wolfsbane wrote:It looks like to get a 9.5 rating on LL's spreadsheet of doom you just need to attack him - pretty convenient if he's scum. I think the spreadsheet of doom is bogus. LL acts scummy and the people who attack him are pro-town. It is hard to argue with that. I agree with whoever said that you can't bait with scummy behavior. If LL is town then scum could easily put on their best townie act. I'm not convinced that LL could tell the difference. Against LL's crazy antics you can't tell what is scummy and what isn't anymore. There is one easy way to remedy this situation though.
IH has attacked me with just as much vigor as GC / Seol. However, it's all about timing, context...stuff like that. IH has not rang my townie bell.
Ditto Ripley, who I'm unsure of.-
-
Seol Logical Rampage
- Logical Rampage
- Logical Rampage
- Posts: 1563
- Joined: November 26, 2004
- Location: In the wrong
Consistently scummy?Echo wrote:Seol, I like to stay consistent...
Do you think it's scummy (as opposed to poor play)?Echo wrote:Looking back, most of my reasons for voting him were based on playstyle... which is aggravating, as it's such an easy excuse. I'll keep my vote there for now. I really don't like the whole mason thing.
That's why we're "jumping on each other for small reasons" - we don't have much to go on, so we're discussing what there is.Echo wrote:I dislike Day 1. The problem is there isn't really much going on, yet we still have to get some discussion going.
That's why the cross-examinations are necessary, or at the very least useful.Echo wrote:Too often scum slipups and town mistakes look similar.
You really want me to hate you, don't you?LuckayLuck wrote:YEAHHHHHHHHHHHHH We're finally masons!!!!
Which catalogues nothing more than vibes and vague impressions (at this point). A useful tool, sure, it helps organise the mind, but nothing remotely mindblowing (you want to see mindblowing, check out the Hardboiled Mafia Tool at Misetings).LuckayLuck wrote:Presenting, for the first time ever on mafiascum, the Excel spreadsheet of doom!
Define "agree". If they agree with the subject of the argument, there's nothing to argue about. If they agree with you on a different topic, that's irrelevant to the first argument.Echo wrote:Of course it's a lot harder to argue with someone who agrees with you...
Why does his saying he thinks you're pro-town make you want to stop attacking him? Does it make you think he's more likely to be pro-town?Echo wrote:Now I have a tough decision- keep attacking LL, even though he has me pegged as protown?
Certainly his arguments so far are poor, and don't exactly fill me with confidence in his assessments.wolfsbane wrote:If LL is town then scum could easily put on their best townie act. I'm not convinced that LL could tell the difference.
That's what I meant when I said his strategy was undermining the town.wolfsbane wrote:Against LL's crazy antics you can't tell what is scummy and what isn't anymore.
Where do you get that idea from? The bits I quoted referred GC/LL twice, GC/myself once and the general case once. Why/how do you think it looks like he's tying me and GC together?wolfsbane wrote: think Seol brought up an interesting point about Echo. It seems like he wants to tie GC and Seol together for some reason. I don't see this connection.
Exactly - it smacks of opportunism. Furthermore, I really don't like Echo talking about backing off LL because LL has Echo green.wolfsbane wrote:Echo seems too happy with this really messed up situation.
vote: Echo[i]The hungry maw of Twilight snaps, but shall not have its fill,
Until one man hangs by his neck, by half this curs'd town's will[/i]-
-
spectrumvoid Problem Child
- Problem Child
- Problem Child
- Posts: 3998
- Joined: June 9, 2006
-
-
LuckayLuck You're a townie
- You're a townie
- You're a townie
- Posts: 462
- Joined: October 7, 2006
-
-
Ripley Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 1095
- Joined: September 7, 2006
I hope my post made clear the distinction between :
1. a PBPA. which I took to mean a post that analyzes a number of different posts, maybe but not necessarily by a single player, and addressed to everybody, and
2. what I called a PBPR (later called PBPB by others), the defining characteristics of this being that it is addressed to a single player, and responds, point by point, and often in excruciating detail, to points made by that player, also usually in a single post. This is the kind of post I meant when I said the following:
The responses from Rathyr, Dodgy and Echo (which seemed to support the suggestion that I'm not the only one) also, I think, referred to that kind of post. Echo's description of "epic point-by-point battles, the intricacies insignificant to all but those directly involved" makes it certain that he was, at any rate. But then IH:I can't promise to give future PBPRs, that are addressed to other players and on issues I don't think interesting or relevant, the kind of close scrutiny I would normally give to every post in a game. (And I suspect I may not be the only one.)
IH wrote:I'm a big supporter of PBP's myself. It helps me organize my thoughts, and I can make connections better, but they are only useful once in a while.
... seems to be referring to the traditional PBPA-type post. Seol sees the distinction:IH wrote:Also, Rathyr, Dodgy, and Echo(and possibly wolfsbane), I know you stated your stance on PBPA's, but you could just be doing this to avoid posting anything worthwhile. Would you at least skim them for us, and see if anything jumps out at you, or... something.
I just don't like the idea of you guys sitting out with the excuse "There's no point in posting, long PBP's turn me off".
but spectrumvoid doesn't:Seol wrote:This style (PBPB) can be effective, but it's also selfish. This is, after all, a game - it should be fun, and too many posts that are too big can turn the game into a chore.
I really don't think people have said that.spectrumvoid wrote:I skimmed through a little, and I really don't like people who choose not to go through PBPAs.
More things I need to respond to, which I'll try to do later tonight.-
-
Echo419 Goon
- Goon
- Goon
- Posts: 215
- Joined: June 3, 2006
- Location: Finding Nemo
Consistently supporting my causes.Seol wrote:Consistently scummy?
That's just the problem. It's hard to tell.Do you think it's scummy (as opposed to poor play)?
Because attacking him undermines my own integrity. Attacking someone who thinks well of you means I have one less supporter.Why does his saying he thinks you're pro-town make you want to stop attacking him? Does it make you think he's more likely to be pro-town?
Great. Now I'm a hypocrite.
Unvote LL
I've decided, after looking him over, it's his playstlye, and not inherent scumminess. Unfortunately I can see scum WIFOMing this a lot in future days... beware.
Seol, I have questions for you.
Are you voting me because I'm scummy, or because you think I'm good lynch?
Are you attacking me because I stopped going after LL, your quarry, or because of the reasons for it?
What is your opinion on Day 1 lynches? Go for most informative or most scummy? Do you see a difference? How much?Showyeah, they're totally buying it.
oops, wrong window.
"Whoops, was that hammer?"- Pretty much everyone, at some point.-
-
chaotic_diablo Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 2134
- Joined: September 15, 2003
- Location: Sidewalk
-
-
Ripley Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 1095
- Joined: September 7, 2006
Not at all. Writing such a detailed analysis at such an early stage was not necessarily good for the game, and may actually have been harmful: focusing attention on the few people who had posted most, starting a trend for epic PBPBs that clogged the game, causing uninvolved people to pay less attention to the details of what was going on. (While at the same time tagging you as probably protown in people's minds.) So I was interested to know if you had previously done this so early as a protown player. I looked at the two games you linked to. In one of them you did indeed make some massive posts. starting on page 4 when the game had been going for just over a week. (In Band Mafia you were much quieter. In fact you didn't post at all. This seems very out of character. Maybe you were operating under an assumed name?)Seol wrote:Are you saying I'm too townie?
In any case, this rings true:
... so I'll leave it at that.Seol wrote:Also, I've been away from Mafia for a bit and I was itching to get into a logical rampage almost for the sake of it.
LuckayLuck. It seems from your frequent references to timing that this is a key feature of your townie-detection methods. Surely in a game like this, the timing of posts is determined more than anything by people's schedules and when they're able to find time for Mafia? Or are all your deductions of this nature along the same lines as the one you've described to us, that is: "a mafioso would never make this post so soon, therefore I have found another townie"...?
As Seol has already pointed out, this isn't right. Echo makes only one reference to GC and Seol as a pair, a reference which isn't unreasonable considering the amount of interaction between them. The GC/Seol thing did pretty much dry up in post 90, which is a while before Echo posts (post 105), but it's his first post since they stopped so I don't see anything odd about it,, certainly not the nefarious artificial linkage that you seem to be suggesting.wolfsbane wrote:I think Seol brought up an interesting point about Echo. It seems like he wants to tie GC and Seol together for some reason. I don't see this connection. Why are these the same two players that LL chose for his wacky mason scheme? I don't see the connection between GC and Seol and why it helps us to think that they are both town. Echo seems too happy with this really messed up situation.
Welcome to the game btw spectrum.-
-
IH Always Scum
- Always Scum
- Always Scum
- Posts: 4247
- Joined: August 7, 2006
- Location: Atlanta, Ga
Another game with Spectrumvoid? = D Why don't you replace into PS2sux too!
Also... Luckay, how did you determine each persons position on your spreadsheet? Or is that information you're not willing to part with?Untrod Tripod (7:27:18 PM): you enjoy whoring
xcaykex (7:27:24 PM): yes
xcaykex (7:27:26 PM): i know that-
-
LuckayLuck You're a townie
- You're a townie
- You're a townie
- Posts: 462
- Joined: October 7, 2006
-
-
wolfsbane Goon
- Goon
- Goon
- Posts: 223
- Joined: May 25, 2006
- Location: Hungary
(italics mine)Echo419 wrote:Whoa... content!
Seol and GC, I think appear to me to be a couple townies drawn into a fight.The original argument was a bit flimsy, but now everyone's tearing into each other, over posts that were part of that argument. It just builds on itself, and yet it isn't that productive IMO...
Okay, I shouldn't have tried to recycle Seol's quotes. I wanted to talk about the post quoted above and saw that Seol had already found it. What I was trying to say is slightly different that what Seol was using the quotes for.
Here is a better explanation of my position.
Once, Echo says Seol and GC look like two townies as shown in the quote above. I interpreted Echo's "9/10 times it's two townies" statement as support of his GC and Seol are townies position, but I can't really prove what his intent was. The important difference is that Echo says "LL and GC are fighting over small things" not that they are townies fighting. When he talks about GC / Seol the wording is "two townies". That slight difference is what I found strange.-
-
Seol Logical Rampage
- Logical Rampage
- Logical Rampage
- Posts: 1563
- Joined: November 26, 2004
- Location: In the wrong
OK, I see how he's saying we're both town, I don't see how he "wants to tie [us] together" (apart from thinking we're both town).wolfsbane wrote:Once, Echo says Seol and GC look like two townies as shown in the quote above. I interpreted Echo's "9/10 times it's two townies" statement as support of his GC and Seol are townies position, but I can't really prove what his intent was. The important difference is that Echo says "LL and GC are fighting over small things" not that they are townies fighting. When he talks about GC / Seol the wording is "two townies". That slight difference is what I found strange.
I knew I forgot something - I was playing as Rainbow Brite in that game.Ripley wrote:In Band Mafia you were much quieter. In fact you didn't post at all. This seems very out of character. Maybe you were operating under an assumed name?
And what has that got to do with integrity? Are you conceding that it didEcho wrote:Because attacking him undermines my own integrity. Attacking someone who thinks well of you means I have one less supporter.notlead you to believe he was less likely to be scum, and agreeing that you were considering backing off because you were more concerned about how other people view you than finding scum?
What's the difference?Echo wrote:Are you voting me because I'm scummy, or because you think I'm good lynch?
I'm voting you because I find you suspicious, because your stated motives don't seem to be town-aligned to me. I'm not ready to lynch anyone yet.
Firstly, I'm attacking you about backing off LL because of your reasons. Secondly, that's a hell of a loaded question embedded there - "Are you attacking me because I stopped going after LL, your quarry?". Why do you describe LL as "my quarry"?Echo wrote:Are you attacking me because I stopped going after LL, your quarry, or because of the reasons for it?
I'm wary of any justification for a lynch that isn't about scumminess, and not just on day 1 - this is often used by scum to justify lynching someone when they can't do it any other way. This is particularly true on Day 1 when any "connections" are invariably very tenuous. I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "go[ing] for the most informative [lynch]" here, though, could you clarify please?Echo wrote:What is your opinion on Day 1 lynches? Go for most informative or most scummy? Do you see a difference? How much?
This is about as useful as saying "each person's position is dependent on how scummy they seem". You haven't actually told us anything.LuckayLuck wrote:IH - each person's position is depended on number and strength of villager and mafia tells.[i]The hungry maw of Twilight snaps, but shall not have its fill,
Until one man hangs by his neck, by half this curs'd town's will[/i]-
-
LuckayLuck You're a townie
- You're a townie
- You're a townie
- Posts: 462
- Joined: October 7, 2006
I haven't encountered any villager/mafia tells that are worth noting, defending, and explaining yet besides Echo, GC, and Seol. the 6's/5's/4's mean nothing else than "how scummy they seem" and is almost meaningless other than slight personal opinion towards leaning town /leaning mafia.Seol wrote:
This is about as useful as saying "each person's position is dependent on how scummy they seem". You haven't actually told us anything.LuckayLuck wrote:IH - each person's position is depended on number and strength of villager and mafia tells.-
-
Echo419 Goon
- Goon
- Goon
- Posts: 215
- Joined: June 3, 2006
- Location: Finding Nemo
Seol, I'd hate to get into a quote war, so I'm replying in paragraph form. I don't like attacking people who think I'm town because if they are town, then they might very well be less likely to support me later. It could be a critical schism. As for the lynch question, I was wondering if you want to lynch me or are simply expressing your opinion of me in vote form. I describe LL as your quarry because before me, he was the person you were engaged in a semi-battle with. As for informative lynches, I've read games where because they couldn't reach a scumminess consensus, people decided to lynch based on connections and voting patterns, and also to see how it would influence the nightkill.
Raythr's last post was Sunday the 3rd, and it was a non-content post. Prod?Showyeah, they're totally buying it.
oops, wrong window.
"Whoops, was that hammer?"- Pretty much everyone, at some point.-
-
chaotic_diablo Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 2134
- Joined: September 15, 2003
- Location: Sidewalk
-
-
Rathyr
-
-
Echo419 Goon
-
-
Rathyr Goon
- Goon
- Goon
- Posts: 888
- Joined: May 17, 2006
- Location: USA
Copyright © MafiaScum. All rights reserved.
-