I'll go through and pull full reads on everyone in my next post. Given all the meta conversations, my games are available in the archives.
Quick scum reads from my original run through before replacing in: Wisdom did a lot of defending in the early part of the thread and it pinged hard. If Wisdom is scum, B&B looks town - no scum with any sense defends their mate that hard. Siv's vote hopping on convenient wagons looks bad, but as the slot is going to be replaced, I'll wait to see what someone else does.
Regarding the massive D_O/HD -B&B/Wisdom fights... I skimmed them. I'll try to actually read them on the deep analysis, but... you're repeating your arguments over & over (&over.) I understand that you're trying to make your points and convince the rest of the town, but I know that I have no desire to read the same argument multiple times. Could you possibly all agree that you've made your points for the moment? Or, if you feel it absolutely necessary, make one more post with specific points that you don't feel have been made? I feel like at least some of the scum in this game are getting drowned out by your fight - as are people who might make valid points that are outside of your fight.
So, what I remember offhand:
D_O - I thought Wisdom basically took the essence of your posting, which didn't include the actual questions, but hit the major point and responded to it.
Wisdom - it's not misrepping if he didn't feel that that WAS the essence of his questions and you didn't answer them.
D_O - The entire point of mafia is to be able to play the same as town/scum, it makes one a good player. In general, most people can't do it,but would you auto-lynch someone that manages to look pro-town and awesome scum hunter regardless of their orientation as a policy lynch because you can't read them?
Wisdom - At the same time, stating that someone looks scummy in all their games means that they are never going to be helping the town because they are always going to be lynch bait. In addition, it means that they aren't helping the town as much as they could because their reads are going to be discounted.
I'll do mollie/B&B & HDs main points in the reread, somehow Wisdom & D_O (is that underscore necessary, it's a bitch on my iPad) stuck more in my mind.
UNVOTE:
Diffusion of Power (Open 478) over
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Jalyn
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Jalyn
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Jalyn
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Jalyn Goon Jalyn
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In post 990, RachMarie wrote:Fine. I wanted to make sure often I was NKed my protection would go through. I wanted to wait til tomorrow when I basically became a by for all intensive purposes. I landed my least favorite and most commonly gotten role. I swear I am such a doc magnet. Night one doc. Thanks guys I wanted to claim tomorrow when killing me does not matter. Luckily I still can keep someone alive tonight.
Uggh it is hard to post on my kindle.
Huh? If you are a doc and are targeted, it doesn't actually matter if your protection goes through? Whoever you protected wouldn't be targeted. Because, you know, you would have been?
I tried doing ISOs last night and had massive formatting issues trying to work it through the iPad. I'm at work now and won't have time to do anything in depth on each player until this evening.-
Jalyn
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Managed to get through this at work
Pirate mollie/B&B pings and notes:
Spoiler:
Read: town, but mostly because Wisdom reads scum and I don't see two scum playing this way.
Tigerzone/CF Riot pings and notes:
Spoiler:
Read: town
PetroleumJelly/Disturbed_One pings and notes:
Spoiler:
Read: town
fuzzy/mcqueen
Spoiler:
Read: definitely leans scum. I don't do meta, I'm not going to go back and look for mcqueen's games, but the read is mostly off of fuzzy's posts anyway as mcqueen seems to be the type of player that I can't read.
KMD:
Spoiler:
Read: Null, leaning scum - there's just not a lot there to work with, he made one large post with information where bits of it pinged, as mentioned above but other than that all we're getting is posting enough to stay in the game.
HD
Spoiler:
Read: Town. Seems to be scum hunting. Reverses his reads when something makes it questionable. "Tunnels," yes, but who doesn't? I especially like the mollie reversal when it began to look more and more like Wisdom was buddying up to her.
Mitellos:
Spoiler:
Read: Town
ProHawk:
Spoiler:
Read: Well, it was town until the Rach vote with a weak argument. Now I guess it's "leans town."
SIV/Rach:
Spoiler:
Read: Scum.
Slimer:
Spoiler:
Read: WTFEver.
Wisdom:
Spoiler:
Read: Scum
Zab:
Spoiler:
Read: Leans scum. There's one post that I like and the rest appear to be making sure that everyone knows he's around and that he's paying attention.
As a note, I did these all at different times, so they are not all ending at the same spot in the thread. If I'd have gone back and updated to have everyone at the same spot, I'd be at this forever.
I can see the RachMarie vote, but I'm going to VOTE: Wisdom for all the reasons I listed above.-
Jalyn
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Defending does not imply that the attacks are justified or unjustified. It merely means that you responded to the attack in order to negate it.
Person A: "Jalyn is a big meanie"
Person B: "No, Jalyn is nice. Look at all of these nice things she did."
It so happens that Jalyn is nice and and not a big meanie, but person B would still be defending me.
If the point of it was only that scum defend people from things that aren't true, it wouldn't matter. No matter how dense a person is, if someone is defending you from something that's objectively true, your going to see it and realize it's happening and it wouldn't be a favored scum move.
Person A: "Jalyn posts really long posts!"
Person B: "No, Jalyn has nice short concise posts."
Jalyn: WTF? Why are you lying on my behalf? That's just weird. Vote Person B.
I have to head home, I'll hit the rest of your bullets later.
@B&B - I live to please.-
Jalyn
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In post 1059, Wisdom wrote:Jalyn wrote:
post 182 The infamous "lynching town" comment, which is AWFUL. Also? Defends mollie.
Why is it awful? I had a townread on tiger and I felt scum were taking advantage of the situation to excuse a town lynch and call it PL because "tiger was rude" which I completely disagreed with. Also why do you call it "infamous"? Nobody has referred to it before or called it scummy.
Huh. After a quick check back, I guess I meant infamous in my head because I can't find anyone else mentioning it. And it's awful because, at the very worst, as town you would know that people were setting up a lynch you disagreed with, by definition, if you are town, you don't know when you're lynching town. Basically, it implies knowledge that you wouldn't have unless you're scum - classic slip.
post 229You do realize that there is a difference between, "ok, that read as town to me" and "Why would you think that's scummy, they are always like that." Especially when the first is not in response to someone else calling it scummy, but giving a read. No one has commented on your analysis that slimer looks town. You've made a call and let the town know what you think. That's fine. If HD had started telling everyone that their reads on D_O were off - then you'd have a comparison. (And if tis happened in one of the posts that I admittedly skimmed through because you all were sying the same thing post after post, please point it out to me.)
HD had called D_O town/ defended D_O/ call it whatever you want because of meta. But at the same time found my " meta defense" of tiger/slimer/mollie to be scummy, which seemed hypocritical.
It wasn't the "meta" part that was scummy, it was the defending part.
post 245Laying the groundwork for a backpedal.
No. The way HD insisted made me believe he might be actually town tunneling on me, which happens to me a lot. I expressed this thought.
I'll let it go. If I didn't think you were scum already, it might not have pinged.
I gave an answer in the original post. It's quoted below.
post 262 The second such and such is a townie post. (And after saying numerous times that he didn't even have a town read on mollie.
And indeed I didn't, but as I have already said the way HD pushed it made me believe he's probably scum pushing two fake scumreads, and that's what I expressed.
post 286 I hate meta arguments. This is a large part of why - I'm not going to go skimming back through other games of people I'm playing with. If nothing else, I don't have that kind of time.
If you rely on a single game, you'll find more scummy-looking things than you would if you knew that they are normal for that person, and it's way more likely you'll be misled and accuse the wrong people.
Yep, and if I stick around long enough to get to know people again, I'll presumably have people that I know in the same way. I understand playing by your own meta reads, when I have them, I'll use them. At the same time, I signed up for this game and only this game because I only have time for one game. That doesn't mean that I'll ignore other people's meta-reads, btw, just that I'm certainly not going back and reading other games.
post 295Why? Is mollie incapable of defending herself? Because it doesn't particularly seem like that is the case.
mollie is perfectly capable of defending herself, but I see no reason to let what I consider bullshit arguments to float around. If I have something to post, I'll post it. I am not gonna wait for mollie to come and post.
But then we lose what mollie had to say on the issue. She no longer has to come up with an original reason for something that another player found scummy. Especially when you were clear that you didn't have a town read on her, why not let her answer what the player has to say? Maybe she'll slip. Maybe she'll notice something scummy about the attack that you missed. That's why I keep saying that there are two issues with it.
post 373 Why would HD trying to push your lynch and mollie's make mollie town, even if he is scum? Scum bus each other. Even better, if HDscum has linked you and mollie in people's minds and you come up town... mollie looks pretty good, doesn't she? Also, you were the one that linked mollie and you together, not HD.
It doesn't. That's what I felt at that moment, that HD-scum was pushing two townies. That's what I expressed. Sure he wouldn't be able to keep linking us in the long term, but that's irrelevant.
Except, it's not irrelevant. You're claiming that HD was linking you to set up two mislynches, if it's impossible that he could keep up the link to achieve this, his purpose becomes void.
post 383 (Not a paraphrase) "It's not even like I defended anyone, I just shot down the accusations on mollie and slimer because they were bullshit - I am not sure either of them is town though."
I'm not defending them, all I did was defend them! Also, it's totally crap to claim that I'm doing things that I don't believe in, I'm just defending people that I don't know are innocent.
Only that's no defending. As I have said many times, if I read bullshit, I'll respond to it. That doesn't equal townreads on the ones the bullshit were about.
post 460 Defending does not have anything to do with the quality of the arguments that are made against a person. Defending is simply speaking up in their defense. Again, this is bad for two reasons:
A) It makes it so that the person that is being called scum does not have to answer the arguments themselves. If the argument was completely invalid, why not let mollie respond to it?
B) It makes a town player more likely to trust you, unless they are being careful. This is why scum like to do it. (And it's the answer to the above question, because it makes mollie more likely to trust you.)
I agree, defending is bad. What I did was not defending.
The rest of your accusations are "defending, defending, defending", and once again I don't consider what I did defending. So bad accusations.
I have not read your reads on others, but you're not beginning too good and I didn't like The Puck either. Gonna read now.
I already answered this.
In post 1061, BeautyAndTheBeast wrote:And I find myself scrolling through the Jalyn/Wisdom argument, giving not a single fuck.
Now you know how I felt for about 30 pages. Oh, wait, no you don't because I'm not going to back and forth this for pages.
In post 1062, Wisdom wrote:Yeah. Once again, here it's how it happened:
mollie accusor: mollie does x action, she's scum.
Wisdom: Not necessarily, mollie does x action as town too.
Analysis that happened:
Wisdom implies that she does not do that as scum.
Wisdom implies that she's town.
Wisdom defends her.
Wisdom is scum with her or Wisdom is scum WKing her.
Wisdom is scum, let's vote Wisdom.
Truth:
Wisdom says that mollie does x action as town too, therefore x action is not anything to go by. It does not mean she doesn't do it as scum, and it does not mean she's town or scum.
Wisdom attacked the accusation and called it bad.
Wisdom did not defend mollie.
Clear?
Your argument has ALWAYS been clear. I'm trying to make clear to you why I completely disagree with it. If you were attacking the argument and saying that arguer was scum for the argument (which isn't how it started) then you would have a point. Does that make my viewpoint clear?-
Jalyn
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50 pages for day 1 and 5 for day 2? The fact that if you average them out you get a reasonably count does not make it reasonable. Sorry for not making it in day 2, Sunday and Monday are my busiest chore days. Speaking of which, I'll be around for a few more hours today and then will have limited time until Tuesday, probably.
In post 1281, Mitillos wrote:What if I want to vote both wagons, because I think they're cross-bussing scum?
Vote: chk
His responses are not convincing. Also, "Rach is never helpful"? We had that PL crap yesterday already.
That's L-1, incidentally.
In post 1326, Mitillos wrote:@CF: Fair enough, I suppose. And no one else has piqued your interest, at all? Seems unlikely.
@queen: And he asked to be replaced. His replacement would most likely have claimed; most players do, when at L-1.
Why would you put him at L-1 when he'd already requested to replace out? I understand the point of looking at the person that hammered, but it sits wrong for me to vote for someone bringing them that close to a lynch and then calling foul because the next person didn't wait to see what the replacement said.
VOTE: Mitillos-
Jalyn
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In post 1422, Kmd4390 wrote:Wait.
Jalyn has to be scum unless:
A) all three scum can be found in the mislynch wagons (unlikely)
B) CF is scum who lied about clearing mcqueen (still possible, but it's early enough not to worry about that chance)
unvote, vote jalyn
Interesting. Especially as Cheery Dog's former incarnation also wasn't on either the RachMarie or the chkflp lynch. So, why would you miss another player that fits your criteria? And, really, I have to be scum because I thought that there was a better lynch than RachMarie on D1 and never got in to talk on D2? That's an amazing analysis.
And what does B have to do with your argument? CF & mcqueen were each on at least one of the mislynches, so I don't understand your point.
Of course, since I lasted posted, Mitillos gave us such an awful "Obviously I wouldn't have been on both mislynches if I was scum" argument that I'm quite happy with my vote. (Which is not lacking in evidence - You voted for someone after they had requested to be replaced out and then used that replacement request as evidence against the person that cast the final vote. I tend to find using evidence that applies to you as evidence against someone else scummy.)-
Jalyn
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Mitillos, I'm not going to argue the hammer/L-1 point, I've made my argument clear, as have you.
In post 1453, Mitillos wrote:Soooo...
Anyone going to believe me, unvote and scumhunt some more?
Since this doesn't seem to be the case, here is my advice:
Vote: Jalyn
I'm not liking zab's play much, either.
Are you going to give a reason? Because, really, other than kmd's faulty analysis, no one has given an actual reason while tossing my name around.-
Jalyn
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A) Wish we could cross two more people off the list and have 3 reasonably confirmed, but I'm a N3 doc and protected Bacde last night, figuring he was all but confirmed innocent and an obvious target because of it. (CF isn't confirmed, but it seemed unlikely that he'd fake claim and then point to a scum buddy as innocent.)
B) I'm going to go back to the Kmd post I pointed out yesterday, noting that he very specifically targeted me as the only person that fit the "not in on other lynch" criteria, while conveniently missing that another person fit the exact same criteria.vote:Cheery Dog
I've only skimmed through today and will look at the arguments for HD and zab tomorrow evening, hopefully.-
Jalyn
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@Mitillos - Thanks for the heads up and, nope that's pretty much it. It wasn't just a "not attacking" though, it was "I'm going to logically deduce that Jalyn must be scum because she's the only person still alive in the entire game that fits certain criteria" while missing the fact that another person in the game fits the exact same criteria. I seem to remember that there was something about slimer that raised my hackles at one point, but I'll have to go back to see if I can find it.
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