/in-vitational 12: Mafia in #YOLOville - All wrapped up!

[CrashTextDummie]

I don't think that Shadoweh is really all that easy to read early game, and if she's scum it should start becoming evident in a couple days. But, my first thought is Post 328 followed up by Post 329 comes from town. Her arguments against CTD look natural enough; I don't have any particular thoughts on CTD though, so I'll look back at that later.

Do you consider distortion of facts natural? Several things she's accusing me off are straight up BS: I am neither the player with the lowest amount of posting, nor am I lurking, and to say that I "haven't changed my reads for the entirety of D1" is not only hyperbolic, as the entirety of D1 hasn't even happened yet, but also not accurate.

If it helps you did the same thing he's accusing you of in #189, start off by re-itterating you still have scumreads on the same two people, end by reminding people you still totally suspect the guy your vote is on, and frankly all three of your suspicions reasons look skin-deep.

My suspicions were plenty good enough for page 13 of a large game. You can also explain why you have a problem with voicing suspicions of other players while expressing dissatisfaction with the defense of the person you're voting for.

Empire's post was self-reflective because he was answering the question I asked him about himself.

You are now defending the person who was at the time your one and only suspect. The post in question did not give you any pause in your attack against him, so it stands to reason that at the

very least

you didn't find it protown, so for you to turn around and attack me for questioning it is extremely disingenuous.

Summing up my reasoning for attacking Empire as BoP is simplistic and in my opinion wrong.

I will give you this. Your attack against Empire was not

just

BoP, you also accused him of soft questioning, which fed into your argument that "a strong scumhunter can't be unsure about things" (paraphrased), which to me is, in essence, BoP.

I don't have any proof to directly counteract the wagon, therefore I have been attempting to pursue the lead elsewhere that I saw to try and drive up a different wagon. You'll have to explain to me what else exactly I should have been doing to counteract a wagon I was never on. That comment above is perfectly consistent with what I said earlier, null, uninterested, not worth looking at, but no concrete reason to trust.

Ways to counteract a wagon:
1. Disagree with the wagon
2. Mount a counterwagon

You did not disagree with the wagon. What you said instead in post 258 boils down to "I don't have a read on Llamarble, but if he flips town I totally called it", which is playing it safe on top of being wishy-washy.

I think the weirdest thing about your post though, is that after those three statements, you end up changing votes to N, the person that frankly you had the least and weakest things to say about.

I initially had a vote on you and pre-edited it to N when I saw Vi had voted him, putting him ahead. I am perfectly willing to compromise on a weaker suspicion if it increases the chance of a wagon actually taking place.

-------------

Your case against me is terrible and your quality of scumhunting/post count ratio is abysmal. Please let me know if you're planning on continuing to tunnel me so I can ignore you for the time being. Kthxbai.

[CrashTextDummie]

Two other things I wanted to mention:

Remind me of this post after Shadoweh answers Post 336.

You're welcome.

----------------

Johhog's CES vote is lazy and scummy. Instead of commenting on anything relevant going on or using his vote in a productive manner, he parks it on a player that has virtually no chance of getting wagoned based on his weak meta suspicion. Would vote.

---------------

N, I take it you had some analysis of stuff that happened before the spotlight turned to you that you are going to reproduce?

[Tierce]

Two other things I wanted to mention:

Remind me of this post after Shadoweh answers Post 336.

You're welcome.

Thanks, but I addressed that already.

[Faraday]

Day 1, Votecount 17

Nachomamma8 (1) - N
penguin_alien (2) - Llamarble, Deasvail
Shadoweh (1) - WickedestJr
Llamarble (1) - penguin_alien
Johhog (2) - Nachomamma8, Tammy

N (4) - Tierce, Vi, CrashTextDummie, Empire

Vi (2) - Benmage, Cogito Ergo Sum
CrashTextDummie (1) - Shadoweh
Cogito Ergo Sum (1) - Johhog

Not voting (1) :

Konowa

• With 16 alive it takes 9 to lynch.
  
• Deadline is on 5th of March at 00:38am GMT
  
• Countdown to deadline: (expired on 2013-03-04 20:30:28)
  
• Tierce is V/la

[N]

Vi, Tammy, T/S

Vi said something like this earlier, but I don't know what it means. Are you saying one is town and the other is scum?

It's a question.

You're asking Vi what he thinks of Tammy then? Or is it just filler, going "I don't know Vi's or Tammy's alignments"?

Like I said earlier, that I'm way too aggressive and alienate people so they want to lynch me to shut me up. Also I can't explain my reads very well ever.

I got that, but how does that stack up against your scum game?

I'm going to end up meta-gaming everyone in this roster, I can already tell.

This still needs answered, N.

Oh, right. I don't really know what I do differently, but as scum I've always lasted until endgame. Honestly, I don't think I play that differently between alignments.

[N]

N, I take it you had some analysis of stuff that happened before the spotlight turned to you that you are going to reproduce?

Pardon?

[Shadoweh]

CTD: Your scum list is like a Katamari Damacy game. Empire. Empire + Shadoweh. Empire + Shadoweh + Llamarble. Empire + Shadoweh + N + Llamarble BANZAI! You keep collecting suspects without doubting that maybe you were wrong about one on the way. That's the lack of change that I'm referring to that is completely accurate.
"Here are two ways to counteract a wagon. You didn't o the first one THEREFORE YOU ARE BAD" ignoring that my argument was that I was doing the second thing. GJ.

Cmon, you apparently would have the support of all the people voting N if you went for me, and maybe some other people who just haven't been convinced lovingly enough that I'm terrible anyways. My case against you is fucking awesome and your attempt to defend against a strawman version of it is just more fuel for the fire. Luckily you're not the one I care to talk to here unless you feel like voting yourself.

[Tierce]

CTD: Read Empire again. Go.


N: Again, it's a question.

[Tierce]

"Vi is sheeping Tierce" isn't really any sort of commentary on Vi's vote on you, N.

[CrashTextDummie]

Pardon?

You mentioned having lost something to an error and I'd like to see it. Looking for scum on a wagon that hasn't even properly taken off yet at the expense of everything else that happened is awfully OMGUSy.

"Here are two ways to counteract a wagon. You didn't o the first one THEREFORE YOU ARE BAD" ignoring that my argument was that I was doing the second thing. GJ.

A counterwagon involves more than one person. You were sitting on Empire by yourself, pushing a fail meta-case. Kind of like you're sitting on me by yourself now, pushing a fail BS-case. How about you do something productive and vote for Johhog? Competing Johhog/N wagons would be great just about now.

CTD: Read Empire again. Go.

No thanks. I don't see the uber town tells you've referenced, which I assume are meta-related, but I've already indicated that I've seen enough pro-town effort from him to counter-balance the icky stuff and I am currently not interested in questioning him further.

[Shadoweh]

Competing N/CTD wagons would be even better. Make a Johhog wagon yourself if you really want something competing with your own wagon. Saying that I tried and failed on Empire is different then ignoring that I tried. Unlike earlier I'm much more confident and determined to push you off of a cliff here. I like how you're trying to blow off/ignore me instead of using this 'bs case' as the proof you would need to make it hapen. You found a lynch that hasn't fallen apart yet and you plan to ride the wave until it washes N out or peters out so you can find a new home to hop onto.

'I'm not gonna read Empire but it seems like people think he's town so I'm going to ignore him now and pretend those early suspicions never happened.'

[Llamarble]

As other folks town it up, I feel increasingly good about lynching Penguin.

I thought you stating that we should lynch CTD as more emphatic than just voting him seemed like an extreme reaction. It felt fake, but I wasn't sure where you were going with it. Basically, saying we should lynch someone, saying that they're acting scummy, and voting them is just overkill as a reaction early on. It makes a lot more sense that you were using it more as a reaction test than a sentiment you were committed to.

Scum are taken aback by somebody they know is town faking stuff and immediately wonder what the idea is.
'Where is this player going with this' is therefore a very common scum reaction to weird town play.
It's less common from town, who aren't particularly worried about where that player is going with their action; they just want to find out if the player is scum or not.
So maybe DV's reaction test silliness helped catch us a scumbag after all

N does not seem like a terrible lynch either.

[Wickedestjr]

Unvote. Vote: CTD

Can you please answer my question at the top of 248?

I'm a little behind, but I can't see this vote changing based on what I have yet to read. I'll explain the vote later (most likely after CTD answers my question). This explanation will probably be accompanied by reads on everyone and hopefully my page 18-20 guess regarding who the scum team is.

[Wickedestjr]

Penguin may be scum anyway though; she still pattern-matches as dicey.

Llamarble, what did you mean by this?

[Llamarble]

The anyway can be replaced by 'despite her vote being consistent with her pre-game interaction with me.'
When I say 'pattern-match' I mean that as I read through her sentences I hear to myself 'works as scum, works as scum, works as scum, does this work as scum? yep' and so on.
Basically her posts match 'this is a scum ISO' patterns I have built up through experience.
It's often extremely difficult to describe how a neural network (such as the brain) reaches the conclusion it reaches, so most call it gut; I tried to be slightly more descriptive but I guess I just confused you.

[Empire]

By the way, Empire, I don't want to spoil anything you might want from others, but I look at 382 and have no idea what you're on about with that tell.

Nevermind, I think I misinterpreted the post as CES being self-deprecating about his playstyle which I thought was more likely to come from him as town.

Llamarble, whenever you get a chance, can you talk about which players have towned it up since your posts before today and why?

[Empire]

Going over Shadoweh's meta because it's nearly 5 AM and I'm really bored. A Dance With Dragons throws in a bit of a wrench in the pattern I'm seeing in her scum games. Contrast with GvE where she just blatantly didn't give a shit about the game, was far less snarky/abrasive (there are points where she actually tries to appear all cutesy and amicable -- #1643 + #1704), was far less adamant about pushing her preferred lynches, and basically folded to pressure). Both games were multiball so that can't be what accounts for the difference. She feels totally different in Weather Mafia II and Mini 1376 and I think the level of snark/abrasiveness here fits her townplay. Definitely leaning town here, but paranoid because lolADWD.

[CrashTextDummie]

Can you please answer my question at the top of 248?

No, I didn't find it suspicious.

[Johhog]

The Vi wagon is meh. I think it looks like normal Vi. I prefer this one.

VOTE: Cogito Ergo Sum

Playing very differently from Team Mafia, where he was town.

I vote Johhog and say it's partly because he feels different from when he was town.

He says there could be a reason for that.

Votes someone else for the same reason. >_>

Facepalm points: over 9000.

[Benmage]

...Oh. It needed a question mark.

Currently, scum. Wouldn't lynch Today.

(^Inreference to shadow)Thats odd? Why not lynch today?

I've answered this already.

Where?

[Tierce]

...Oh. It needed a question mark.

Currently, scum. Wouldn't lynch Today.

(^Inreference to shadow)Thats odd? Why not lynch today?

I've answered this already.

Where?

Tierce, were you being serious when you said she was scum?

I was. Not interested in a wagon Today.

Why not? I'd make a pretty good one. I'm avoiding all your scumspects, totes validate all your other reads, and it would help ignore me directly asking you questions! You aren't interested in a wagon because you have no reason to think I'm scum and I am insulted you would think so, so either put up or stop ignoring me.

I'm not ignoring you. But much like Vi,

I believe you are an easier read later in the game, and I doubt I would be able to discern anything useful from a wagoneh Today.

In the meantime, you are good company. Therefore, etc.

[Empire]

Oh, is that it? He's sheeping Teirce. Huh, no wonder I missed it.

This isn't a stance on Vi.

[penguin_alien]

@penguin: In #155, you pointed out how you didn't like CES's "coasting/non-game related posts" -- what do you think of Vi? If town, can you make any meaningful distinction between Vi's play and CES's play that would justify the different treatment?

At the time, I don't think there was a whole lot to distinguish them; I noticed CES more because he'd jumped on my wagon and then taken zero interest in doing anything with it. Since then, both have posted more content, so I don't think my initial characterization is particularly relevant. Having said that, as far as Vi is concerned right now, I'd put her as leaning town for the way she's posting: not very defensive, willing to vote ahead of the trend WRT N.

I don't see what those on CTD and Johhog are seeing; I'm assuming that Wickedestjr will explain further as promised as far as CTD is concerned.

If N is normally snarky and willing to provoke people when town, changing that up here while saying so in such a blatant way is making me leery, given my experience with him being oh-so-reasonable as scum before.

Ok, so why Penguin is but I don't really know, but I guess could be scum! (I think this might work better for everyone)

His reaction to my vote as I was rereading was too well thought out for someone who had never seen CTD play before. Scum reading through would obviously know I was town (and I think would pretty much have the reaction Penguin had) and adding on to this the fact that I'm pretty sure it was clearly a bad idea to continue considering the reactions to it, and it makes Penguin's post feel like saying stuff just to look town.

DeasVail, you asked for my reaction. Why wouldn't you want me to answer your question in a way that indicated I'd thought about it? Claiming that I'm saying stuff to look town when I'm answering your question is weak. And why assume that I've never seen CTD play? You're right, as it happens, but given that there are plenty of games from him to read up on should I choose makes this a huge assumption. (I generally don't read up on people's games; the only one I've read but not played with is Shadoweh in the process of getting inspiration for a Donner Party game.)

Overall, N's posts don't show much scum-hunting and a propensity for side-tracking to my mind. I'm not seeing anything from Llamarble that makes me think town, but N reads rather scummy at present.

UNVOTE: Llamarble
VOTE: N

Out of those on my wagon, I think CTD's jump on was the worst, followed by Empire's. I don't know whether I just don't understand how my own meta is seen or whether Teirce and Empire are cherry-picking parts of it that suit their case.

On the other hand, Teirce's build up to voting for me is to be expected, but she does actually understand her own meta so that doesn't mean anything. I actually doubt that she'll be moving her vote again today. (I mean that the way she built up to her vote is usual for her, not that she voted for me; that's debatable.)

Are any of these scum reads (or town reads in Tierce's case) that you're interested in championing?

[Konowa]

Effort, sans Vodka, to follow today. This week is decidedly less stressful for me. I know there are a few questions directed at me so those first, probably.

[Benmage]

@Tierce ..So Vi, and Shadoweh(shadow being a scum read).. are two people you essentially would never lynch D1. Anyone else on our playlist?

I feel like everyone is an easier read later in the game... why the free pass, I do not get.