Diffusion of Power (Open 478) over

[Wisdom]

/confirm

[Wisdom]

^that is everyone

VOTE: slimer
because slimer

[Wisdom]

^Gotta agree with the above that zabriel's lurking is annoying.

[Wisdom]

I'm talking generally - you lurk and I don't like lurkers. Hope you won't do it here.

[Wisdom]

Really and truly, I don't want to lynch ANYONE this early. Considering, you know, it JUST started.

And you felt the need to mention this because...?

[Wisdom]

So you're seriously proposing a policy lynch, tiger? It wasn't just RVS?

[Wisdom]

I'm not taking part in Zab's lynch, unless I get some solid info or he literally lurks through the entire game. At that point I think it's more "flying under the radar" than actual lurking.

^The overcautiousness continues.
This is another unnecessary thing to say. It's not like anyone agreed with that policy lynch or even thought that zabriel was lurking in this game.

VOTE: fuzzy

[Wisdom]

What matters isn't what happens, it's what you

intend

to happen. Which is a PL of zabriel before he does anything. Which is a scummy and anti-town stance.

It's anti-town, not necesserily scummy.

[Wisdom]

necessarily*

[Wisdom]

It is scummy.

Lynching someone before they say anything is a way to deprive town of information.

That's a scum tactic.

It's not like zabriel wouldn't have the chance to say

anything

until he gathers 7 votes. I disagree this is a scum tactic.

[Wisdom]

Tigerzone's meta is anti-town. I'm eager for us to stop being in the same game.

So do you also propose a policy lynch then?

[Wisdom]

hey wisdom do you want to lynch hd? cos I am thinking I do!

Perhaps.

[Wisdom]

Really, there's no basis for a policy lynch yet, and it seems to me like tigerzone's looking for an easy lynch.

How is it an easy lynch when nobody agrees with him (and he knew this would most likely be the case in advance)?

You

seem to be pushing an easy lynch at the moment, imo.

VOTE: HD

[Wisdom]

How exactly is tiger an easy lynch?

A policy lynch is pretty much by definition an easy lynch. Why? It lynches someone for playing in an anti-town fashion, so people will agree with it. So how is

he

not pushing an easy lynch?

tiger is an easy lynch because he's being anti-town and people who don't know him mistake that for scummy.
zabriel was not an easy lynch because the way tiger presented it he made everyone disagree with it. It's like he knew the policy lynch wouldn't work but just did it for fun and/or reactions. And I think your reaction to it fits what tiger expected, if that's the case.

[Wisdom]

Using that logic, I don't think tigerzone would come into a game like that; he would look to be pro-town. Therefore, I think his zab PL is complete fabrication and he's scum.

That's wrong. Again, I got the impression tiger didn't really expect the policy lynch to go through and most likely didn't even want it. Which would explain why he joined the game despite zabriel being in it.

[Wisdom]

If his goal was to elicit reactions with the whole policy lynch deal, then it makes sense to say the above.

[Wisdom]

Why are you assuming that tigerzone isn't just a stupid asshat Wisdom?

I don't think "stupid asshat" equals scum. Unless you're supporting he's scum, I'd like you to vote someone who is scum.

[Wisdom]

No because he would've already elicited the reactions for the whole deal, meaning he wouldn't need to keep up his supposed "reaction test".

Why are you assuming it's a reaction test anyway?

Because that's what it looks like to me. I could be wrong and it could be just his stubbornness wanting to get zabriel lynched. What I know is there's no scum motivation there.

[Wisdom]

Tiger has flipped in one game, which is still ongoing. This is where the "hate" with zabriel is coming from. We can't talk about this due to it being ongoing though.

[Wisdom]

How can you know that for sure, Wisdom? How can you be 100% positive that there was no scum motivation behind it?

I'm not 100% positive, it's just the impression I'm getting.

[Wisdom]

Just so you guys know, I'm being a good slimer and lurking for a little while

hi
should I get you lynched?

[Wisdom]

Yeah okay, but the question is,

should

I? Or are you a good townie slimer this time?

[Wisdom]

Maybe he meant as scum

[Wisdom]

LAL GOOO

Or not. I'm comfortable where I am.

So you're also of the belief that tiger is scum trying to push you as an easy mislynch?

[Wisdom]

So you're not finding him scummy then, you're just OMGUSing his policy lynch desire.

[Wisdom]

Kay slimer can be town for now

[Wisdom]

And why can't scum fake-claim, slimer?

[Wisdom]

what zabriel said. Slimer's idea is a bad idea. And HD calling it good... yeah. Scum would call it good.

[Wisdom]

I'm not calling it a scumtell. slimer is probtown actually. I'm calling HD's agreement scummy.

[Wisdom]

Mkay, fair point. It's probably the general scumvibes I'm getting from HD that made me believe this.

[Wisdom]

mkay that last post tells me fuzzy is probably newbtown, and not scum. Not that sure, but that's the vibe I'm getting.

[Wisdom]

Because that's not why I voted HD.

[Wisdom]

Not anti-town to park a vote on somebody that's anti-town by admission.

It is, because you're voting anti-town instead of scumhunting.

[Wisdom]

I want you to start scumhunting.

[Wisdom]

VOTE: Wisdom

Explain please.

[Wisdom]

Actually a better question is, why would a person really not know who their vote is on?

And why would scum make a post saying "I don't know where my vote is"?

[Wisdom]

Good point. But mollie acts like this as town too.

[Wisdom]

I've seen town mollie do all three of those :/

[Wisdom]

That's not my intention, I'm saying that it's null for her to do these things.

[Wisdom]

Not sure what you want to imply, I am just saying that mollie is likely to do these things as either alignment. Now if she does more scummy things later, we'll see.

[Wisdom]

You are arguing for the potential protownness of at least two players: tigerzone's motives and pirate mollie's "meta."

False. I didn't argue mollie is pro-town - I argued that the reasons given are not scumtells for her. She is still a null read for me.
The tiger part is correct.

Your defense of tigerzone is awkward since you start alleging you understand the animosity between tigerzone and zabriel, and yet you are making excuses to legitimize tigerzone's play as having a strategy behind it. If tigerzone actually has such an intention, let him say so rather than offering explanations for him. (For the record, I rather doubt he had a mastermind plan of reaction-testing. I also doubt he created a plan to policy-lynch zabriel as a result of getting scum role.)

Yeah that was a weird speculation for me that came mostly from seeing HD's reaction. I thought "look at what a reaction we got from this - could it be that this all was for reactions" and I voiced that thought, but I realized that was likely not the case soon enough.

Your defense of pirate mollie is also uncalled for, since the appropriate thing to do here is to have pirate mollie explain her own lackluster posting before you go defending it for her.

Which I will - I just wanted to point out that those are null tells for mollie. She happened to do exactly these things in my last game with her. And once again, I'm not really defending her as I don't have a townread on her.

[Wisdom]

So we're lynching town today? Cool.

And @disturbed Yes it's normal play for mollie.

[Wisdom]

I don't agree, he's not that annoying to me.

[Wisdom]

I don't see him as a troll.

[Wisdom]

for the record, i won't be making any moves towards voluntarily replacing. i still stand by my opinion of zabriel, but it doesn't mean i won't budge if he consistently offers content. i never said that i would discard zabriel's opinions no matter what he said.

And also his vote is not on zabriel anymore.

[Wisdom]

above was @ProHawk

[Wisdom]

@ProHawk
Can we just give him a last chance?

[Wisdom]

I think you all need to work up your tolerance, petroleumjelly included.

[Wisdom]

I wish everyone will just forget about this and start scumhunting, and that tiger will start behaving more properly. You guys don't have to act like a bunch of children.

[Wisdom]

Not even close

[Wisdom]

Yup, he is.

[Wisdom]

That's not a scumread.

[Wisdom]

So that she can elicit reactions from people pushing her to vote someone else. That's how she plays.

[Wisdom]

Uh. She doesn't have a scumread on ProHawk, what you quoted wasn't a scumread.

[Wisdom]

So slimer are you gonna do anything useful this game?

[Wisdom]

"You're scum this game aren't you" is equal to me telling slimer "Should I get you lynched this game?"
She's trying to read him, she has not expressed any scumread.

[Wisdom]

So it's okay for you to defend/call people town because of meta but you have a problem when I do it?

pedit: I don't know, I guess she will later.

[Wisdom]

When the cases are solely based on playstyle, I will.

[Wisdom]

What is your stance regarding a tiger policy lynch, slimer?

[Wisdom]

Hmm.
Whoever tunnels back on me usually is town.
I might have started thinking HD is actually town.

[Wisdom]

Most replacements give their reads when they catch up - not necessarily a town tell. But if you have meta reasons, I won't argue them.

[Wisdom]

Until D_One starts scumhunting and places a normal vote instead of a policy one, I don't see him as town.

[Wisdom]

Right now we should be lynching mollie and Wisdom, so the fact that we aren't doing it is bad

Add "wants to lynch two townies" in my reason for being on your wagon

[Wisdom]

Its still null, but the way you're pushing it makes me believe she's town.

[Wisdom]

You underestimate me if you think I'd slip so easily.

[Wisdom]

Well I didn't, because townies can't slip.

[Wisdom]

Same here, so tell me when you decide to stop tunneling.

[Wisdom]

You're not voting me though - if I am scum, how can you be sure that I am not WKing mollie?

[Wisdom]

Yeah but mollie hasn't done anything scummy - while I have "slipped", which should surely be scummier. Shouldn't you vote me?

[Wisdom]

You got a game where mollie did similar things and I can give you another.
Now if you're lazy to go through it it's your own problem.

[Wisdom]

No

Burden of proof is on you

You need to show me where

specifically

she does these scummy things as town

No, I don't. If you're town and have interest in scumhunting, do the research yourself.

[Wisdom]

I have no work to do - it's your job as a townie to meta the others. I have done my research and can tell when someone plays to their meta - you should do yours. Even providing a game is too much, you should normally find it on your own.

[Wisdom]

False.

x person accuses mollie of y action.
I know y action is null for mollie, and point it out.
x person has to research and determine if that's true and act accordingly.

That's how it works. I have no obligation to do anyone's homework because they're lazy.

[Wisdom]

The proof is all there in the two games that were linked - you're just lazy to find it.

[Wisdom]

Nope, linking is enough.

Your scumhunting nature as town makes you interested to look through that game and look for proof.
On the other hand, scum will be lazy because they don't actually need the proof.

[Wisdom]

Don't be mad, bro.

I felt the need to point out that those accusations were bullshit. I had no obligation to prove why, especially to people who have played with mollie before. If someone asked me to provide a game, I would. And I did. But what you're asking is too much - I won't go that far only to show you that my "claim" wasn't something I pulled out of my ass. It's there, and you can find it.

[Wisdom]

Yeah, but I didn't give any reads due to meta, did I? I simply rejected the scumtells regarding mollie and slimer, because they're based on playstyle and are null for them.

[Wisdom]

@Mitillos
No, and that's why I do not call her

town

due to this meta. I simply reject that those things are scumtells for her.

[Wisdom]

Okay, can anyone that has played with HD confirm that this hard tunneling and frustration are part of his town play? Because that's what I'm starting to think.

[Wisdom]

That doesn't matter, some things are indicative even if you aren't intentional about it.

[Wisdom]

Are you sure mollie? I think his frustration looked kind of townish.

[Wisdom]

Then again his bringing up said frustration in the above post kind of negates it.

[Wisdom]

HD, I am town, and if you want to show me you're town, you'd better get out of your tunneling and start hunting actual scum.

[Wisdom]

Since I saw it's accurate.

[Wisdom]

So you're rejecting to leave your tunnel then.

Kay, you can die then.

[Wisdom]

What I know is that there are at least 3 people (Siveure, kmd and The Puck) who have barely posted anything useful so far. For all we know we could all be town fighting each other while they lurk.

[Wisdom]

Yeah because I'm really scared that town is gonna lynch me after you flip town. That's exactly how I play scum. You caught me.

[Wisdom]

tiger is right, The Puck's reason for jumping on the policy lynch looks fake.
Not that Siveure's related post looks good either.

I think we need to move in that direction.
VOTE: The Puck

[Wisdom]

Yup, that too. It didn't make any sense.

[Wisdom]

Why do you want to make me vote you again? Remove your blinders already.

[Wisdom]

Nobody cleared her as town.

[Wisdom]

Well at least we won't have a stupid policy lynch. Let's see who will stay on the tiger wagon now.

[Wisdom]

If you can't read her, then she's just a liability and needs to go. End of story.

I strongly dislike this. What, are you proposing a policy lynch on mollie now? Who said that nobody can read her?

[Wisdom]

Nope, it sounds like I realise HD is most likely tunneling town and we should focus on hunting actual scum instead of fighting each other.

And regarding the proof statement, you took it out of context. I didn't say scum generally don't need proof - I said that scum wouldn't care to search if mollie acts like this or not because they already know her alignment and aren't interested in scumhunting.

[Wisdom]

What you said and what you meant to say are two different things.

If they knew they wouldn't find anything to be able to falsely incriminate her, that's one thing, but if they could find something to help their cause, at least I know as scum I would be all over it.

Would you like to comment on you calling Mollie town with a null-read?

What I meant to say is exactly what I said. Town will study the meta to look for the proof they requested while scum simply don't care to look for the proof because they didn't need the proof in the first place. Some scum might try to argue that the proof given are not enough, other scum might ignore the meta completely - the point is that town are the ones that have scumhunting intents and should be guaranteed to study the meta.

I have already commented on why I called Mollie town there - I felt HD was scum trying to push her lynch and mine - which would make both of us town. Other than that, I don't have a townread on mollie.

[Wisdom]

Why would I know who can read her and who can't? We will read her as any other player - based on her posts and actions. There never was an issue that mollie is such an awesome player that we'll never read her (although that might become the case if you insert Majiffy in the mix, but we'll see), so proposing a policy lynch is terribad. We should lynch scum, not whoever is difficult to read.

But yes, I do like what Prohawk has to say on the matter and I agree. I didn't observe this until now (probably because I skimmed through a lot of the banter between yourself and Wisdom), but Wisdom seems to say a lot of things he/she doesn't really mean. That does seem a bit strange to me.

lolwut? I mean everything I say - stop sheeping bullshit reasons others give.

I also personally dislike how he defends more people than he actually accuses, which makes it seem as though he's trying to "buddy up" with as many people as possible, so he has allies if he needs them. Some of his reasoning/explanation for defending players is downright weird, for example, calling Mollie town from a null read.

Or because I'm trying to scumhunt and I can't see people accusing people for bullshit reasons, such as things solely related on playstyle. It's not even like I defended anyone, I just shot down the accusations on mollie and slimer because they were bullshit - I am not sure either of them is town though.

Wisdom, that was incredibly fency of you. How does HD pushing a lynch make anyone town? And how can you say Mollie is town, but not have a townread?

HD-scum pushing my and mollie's lynch probably would mean that mollie is town too - scum will push town lynches rather than bus. Based on that, I felt HD was trying to push the lynch of two townies and excuse it to tunneling (and it might still be the case given his insistence on tunneling me), and I called me and mollie townies because of that. But again, I don't have a townread on mollie based on her posts on anything. That's all there was to me calling her "town" at that moment.

[Wisdom]

The main wagon is on me now, and you are on it. Are you ok with lynching me (since your vote was comical/RVS)?

[Wisdom]

Tiger got replaced, slimer.

[Wisdom]

Yeah and I'll repeat, who said that she's "unreadable"? You're misrepping and it's bad.
Do you think that someone can tell the alignment of a player basing only on meta? Let her post more, let actions unfold and we'll be able to read her. I don't understand how she becomes "unreadable" because certain actions of her are null.
I don't understand why you think mollie cannot be read. Have you had a problem with reading her in the past? How is she different than any other player in here? Can I be read? Can you be read? Can slimer be read? Possibly, when we do certain actions and post certain things we might be able to be read. Same goes for mollie. I don't understand why she's different for you.
I didn't defend anyone, I merely pointed out the accusations were invalid. You're still misrepping.

[Wisdom]

I'm not quoting anyone, just stating my opinion, yet I'm misrepresenting? You're the one who's misrepresenting

me

, nowhere did I say that I thought anyone had said that.
That's not at all my point. My point is exactly the opposite of what you're saying. My point is that I do not believe Mollie can be read, my "evidence" for this point is that she plays inherently anti-town regardless of her alignment. You're claiming that you think we can read her based on her actions, I am just asking you to back that up with previous experience. I'm not saying that meta can determine her alignment, in fact I'm saying the exact opposite. I do

not

think meta can determine her alignment. I do not think observing her actions can determine her alignment, either. And for these reasons, I am saying that I feel she is fair game to lynch. Based on the grounds that we cannot tell if she is town or scum, and therefore that makes her dangerous.

I have never played with Mollie before. Mollie is different from the other players because she plays in a way that is anti-town, regardless of alignment. slimer is also different in this regard. You and I are more likely to play pro-town regardless of our alignment, though we can actually "slip-up" when we post something anti-town. Mollie and slimer cannot, because they are already posting in an anti-town fashion, so therefore it is impossible for them to slip up.

I'm not misrepresenting you, and I have no need to argue with you about this. You

did

defend them, and you're not fooling anyone. Simply stating that I am misrepresenting you does not actually make it so.

Yes, you're taking several things that are

your own interpretations

as facts, and I call that misrepping. Like for example that "I defended people" while I defended nobody (because I don't count pointing out that bullshit accusations are bullshit as defending), or that mollie is unreadable (I still dont understand how on earth you came up with this).

We have different opinions of what is "anti-town", because I don't consider mollie's play anti-town. She's scumhunting in her own way. Same goes for slimer. Each person plays differently. They might be criticized at first but once you play with them and become familiar with them you understand that's their normal play.

I do not understand where you pulled "mollie is unreadable" out of. This is your claim, and you should be the one to prove why she is. I don't have any obligation to prove why she isn't unreadable because simply, by default, players are not unreadable. You're the one who suddenly came up with "mollie is unreadable". And now you say you have not played with her. This is bullshit, and probably scummy too.

[Wisdom]

You are anti-town because nearly all of your posts are void of any content. The content that you do actually post is either impossible to understand or not at all useful. You also do not go very in-depth on your reads, and instead call your scum-reads names, suggesting you don't actually have any reason to suspect them in the first place.

So what makes her anti-town is the "lack of content"?
Awesome - tell me how slimer, The Puck, Siveure, kmd have posted any more content than mollie. By your logic, they're all anti-town.
The content that she posts is impossible to understand? I disagree, I understand everything she has said. If

you

cannot understand, that doesn't mean it's impossible to understand. Same goes for the usefulness.

No, that doesn't make her anti-town. That's a playstyle. And the longer you keep taking "mollie is anti-town" as a given, the more it will look like you're scum and you're misrepping on purpose. Because that's bullshit - mollie is not being anti-town.


inb4 "omg Wisdom defended mollie again". Yes, when I read bullshit I will respond, regardless if the post is addressed to me or not.

[Wisdom]

@401
I have nothing to prove to you - players are not unreadable by default, and same goes for mollie. It's extraordinary to say someone is unreadable in the first place, so you should be the one to back that up with meta and whatnot. You have not backed it up - your reasons for why mollie is "anti-town" are invalid. You are attacking playstyle, nothing more.

Also I don't know what question you are referring to, please quote it.

@402
Her posts are fine, if you don't like them/ don't understand them it's your own problem. Saying she is anti-town because of that is bullshit - saying she is unreadable is even bigger bullshit. You're merely attacking playstyle.

@403
I don't care who thinks what. I simply respond to whatever I feel is invalid. If you want to take it as defending, fine.

[Wisdom]

Yeah, I have answered that. We will read her as any other player. I don't see what makes her so special.

[Wisdom]

Funny how you said that I "ignored" this question when I in fact addressed it in my first posts after the post that had the question.
Another misrep. Keep going.

[Wisdom]

Yup, that constitutes addressing a question. That's all I felt for your question because it was calling mollie unreadable and proposing her as a policy lynch, which was completely out of place.

[Wisdom]

You don't? That's interesting, you've spent quite a lot of time attempting to do just that.

You're asking for proof that she isn't unreadable - that's out of place really. Why would anyone have to provide such proof? It's like saying "the sky is not blue, it's red" and accusing me of not being able to prove it's not red. Again, all players are by default readable. The only unreadable players are those experienced ones (Thor comes to mind) that have developed a playstyle that makes it hard to read them. Is mollie such a player? No. She's definetely not easy to read, but saying she's unreadable is a stretch.

You are correct that my statements are essentially opinions. What makes yours any different? If I have to prove my statements using meta, than so do you. It is illogical to think you have a point here.

Yup, but you're the one calling a player unreadable. I am simply saying something absolutely normal, that she's not unreadable but just a regular player. As said above, that does not need proof. You are the one who needs proof, because you're claiming something out of the ordinary.

I could say that you thinking her posts are "fine" is "bullsmurf", but I won't, because that's not even a valid argument. Her posts lack content, it's a fact. Anyone that ISOs her (except for you, apparently) should be able to figure that out.

Is lacking content (which I don't think they do to the extend you want to present it) enough to call her scum/anti-town/unreadable? Yes, she has not posted as much content as others, but again, that's simply a playstyle matter. You're calling someone scum/anti-town/unreadable based on playstyle, that's what you have to understand.

[Wisdom]

Why did you cut the question out of your post, then?

I responded to the part of the question that stuck out the most. What difference would it make if I quoted the whole question anyway?

[Wisdom]

Then you have played with very few people if that's your belief. There are different people and different playstyles, deal with it.

[Wisdom]

Because quoting indicates that you have read and are responding to something. You did not so.

Also, I was not satisfied with a response. A question demands an answer, not another question. That is because you did not actually address the question.

I did quote part of your question so apparently I did read it. "You did not do so" is wrong.
A question demands an answer when the question is logical. I did not deem it necessary to answer to you "why mollie isn't unreadable" because this is not logical since she isn't. All your question did was make me raise an eyebrow at you for wanting to policy lynch mollie for such a stupid reason. And I believe that's evident by what I answered.

[Wisdom]

This is your question:

@ everyone defending Mollie, riddle me this:

If Mollie plays this way every game, then why should we keep her alive? How are you going to know if she got a scum role in this game? I don't care if she plays this way as town, how are you going to figure out her alignment if she's scum?

If you can't read her, then she's just a liability and needs to go. End of story.

This is my post:

If you can't read her, then she's just a liability and needs to go. End of story.

I strongly dislike this. What, are you proposing a policy lynch on mollie now? Who said that nobody can read her?

You have three guesses to find what part is in both posts.

[Wisdom]

I've made my case. It's obvious you're lying and it is ridiculous for you to try and deny it.

lolwut
Where am I lying?

[Wisdom]

I'm having a hard time to determine if D_O is HD #2 in terms of hard tunneling on me or if he's scum. At least HD wasn't misrepping me so bad, and was actually more logical than this.

[Wisdom]

To D_O, most likely.

[Wisdom]

lol@name

[Wisdom]

dafuq

[Wisdom]

Planning on posting any content, Siveure?

[Wisdom]

Here I just found 2 scum

You found two people to tunnel on, nothing more.

[Wisdom]

On the other hand, I'm not sure I follow his and zab's attack on Puck. His posts seem null to me.

I'm voting him more because I want him to start posting. I could change to Siveure or kmd anytime, if they keep not posting anything.

[Wisdom]

Fine, but I'll keep saying it because that's what you're doing.

[Wisdom]

Tell me HD - do you agree with everything D_O posted regarding mollie and me?

[Wisdom]

@HD
Fair enough, I'd like you to comment on my exchange with D_O when you read it.

[Wisdom]

He says they're just null reads, which is interesting because he spends so much time defending them that you'd think they're town reads. A null read typically doesn't constitute that, but there's a ton of posts he dedicates to defending them.

Which is because there's an equal amount of "anti-town" reads that consist of invalid bullsmurf. As far as you post those, you'll get "defending" from me (which is more *attacking* the invalid bullsmurf, but whatever you like to call it is fine)

[Wisdom]

as long as*

[Wisdom]

Well too bad. I consider it defending if you accuse someone with valid reasons, and I answer on their behalf because I think they are town.
That's not what I did, because the reasons were invalid, and I don't think they are town (or scum).
Therefore, not defending.

[Wisdom]

Come on, we're not posting now, it's your chance to catch up.

[Wisdom]

Yeah but he said he purposely changes his play each time. Doesn't that make that invalid?

[Wisdom]

You have yet to tell me where I lied though.

[Wisdom]

Oh, sure thing.

[Wisdom]

Yeah but mollie hasn't done anything scummy - while I have "slipped", which should surely be scummier. Shouldn't you vote me?

What the hell is this?

This is accusing HD of keeping his vote on mollie while he says he finds me scummier. Something wrong with it?

[Wisdom]

• Claims bullshit.

Which it was. I have not said a single word that I don't mean.

Says he was only shooting down bullshit accusations based solely on playstyle, but refuses to take a stance on the people he was actually defending.

Which is because I defended nobody.

You

call it defending. But it's not defending exactly because I don't take stances.

Answers the question vaguely with a "How should I know?"[/list]

Wtf is this. No. I never dodged any question or cut anything out of any post. This is a blatant misrep of D_O. I answered his question instantly.

• Claims that D_O is misrepping by saying Mollie is unreadable, yet that is D_O's opinion, so it can't be a misrep. (This is a discredit to his attacker without actually refuting anything)

Maybe the term misrep does not accurately mean what I said, but his repeating "Mollie is unreadable" and using it as a fact and as an argument is something terrible. For lack of a better word, I call that misrep.

Asks D_O whether he thinks people can be read on meta, which is the exact opposite of D_O's point, since he thinks Mollie can't be read for this reason.

Asks D_O to show proof that Mollie

can't

be read (D_O counters with a general meta look that shows that she plays anti-town regardless of alignment), although D_O had just asked him for proof that she

can

be read. He's dodging his burden of proof again.

The burden of proof was on D_O. He made an extraordinary claim that "mollie is unreadable". Nobody has to prove someone is readable because by default everyone is readable. His claim "Mollie plays anti-town always" is bullcrap since mollie does not play anti-town.

Says pointing out accusations against someone =/= defending them...but that's exactly what defending someone is. So now he's pretty much lying. His complaint that D_O is misrepping him is still an attack with no basis used as a discrediting tool for the skimming reader.[/list]

As I explained, I don't consider that defending. It would be defending if I called them town and attacked valid reasons against them. The reasons were invalid (omg your playstyle is bad you must be scum) and I didn't call anyone town. This doesn't count as defending in my book.

I don't even really need to look at the rest. #390 is all sorts of bullshit, and Wisdom's lack of even trying to read Mollie and Slimer after calling them null, is, in fact, scummy.

How do you know I am not trying? I am, in fact.

There are 2 possibilities. Either you're still biased as fuck and still tunneling on me, or you're scum. My exchange with D_O should tell you I am town after all these illogical statements D_O pulled off ("omg mollie is unreadable") and after all his misreps, but no, you found them all reassuring that you're right and that I'm scum. This doesn't look too good for you.

[Wisdom]

Indeed, and that's what I am going to do if he continues his bullshit. I only don't do it because I am not sure if he's just tunneling like you or if he's actually scum. Usually town tunnels on me, so I am reluctant to draw conclusions so easily.

Besides, The Puck has still not posted a word so my vote is fine there for the time being.

[Wisdom]

Which is fence-sitting. Which is

still

scummy.

Too bad that neither of them have not posted the amount of content that I'd need to have solid reads on them.

Why would I know who can read her and who can't?

What is wrong with this? Do you agree that mollie is unreadable? Unless you do, every statement related to this should tell you that I was arguing that this claim is bullshit.

He said she is unreadable based on past games. That's not a misrep in any way.

Wrong. He said he has not played with her in the past. He said that he considers her play anti-town, and her play in all previous games (that he skim-read, not played) also anti-town. Both are bullshit, mollie is not anti-town here or anywhere I have read. It's just her playstyle. Using that as a fact is a misrep in my book.

He said pretty much "Based on her meta, she's unreadable." There's a difference between showing someone a general playstyle and something that someone specifically does that they do as both alignments, which was my problem with you and fuzzy earlier. So he asked you to show him a scum game where Mollie is successfully read and lynched. Which you didn't. So.

Again, no. That's not what he said. He said that her playstyle is anti-town in this game and in every other game. Which it isn't. Nobody has to prove that, it's a fact. He was the one with the extraordinary claim, all burdens of proof were on him and only on him.

No.

The objective definition of defending someone is refuting accusations made against them.

That's what a defense is.

Saying not taking a stance makes it not defending is inherently bullshit.

Only when the accusations are valid, which they weren't. If you accuse someone with a valid point and I refute it and call them town, then call it defending.

Then tell me why nearly all of your interactions lately have been with your accusors and, in fact, not Mollie nor Slimer?

Check again, I have asked slimer questions (which he didn't want to answer). It's absolutely normal that my interactions will mainly be with my accusors, since they're trying to mislynch me, and I'm not just gonna stand and allow that to happen.

Or you're just mad that you're caught and trying to paint me as someone that shouldn't be listened to.

Do I seem mad? Because I am not. But yeah, if you continue to tunnel on town instead of scumhunt, we shouldn't listen to you at all.

Firstly, he just let it slip that he knows I'm town even though he said in his previous post that he was considering me as possible scum

Which I still do, tunneling has limits and you're close to passing them.

Secondly, he's trying to justify a vote park on a lurker instead of someone who is making a supposedly bullshit case against him. That's scummy because it means he's unwilling to engage D_O and keeps insisting that he must be tunneling town to make excuses not to engage.

Yeah, that must be it. You know me better than I know myself.

[Wisdom]

But I still see it that way and it has everything to do with the fact he cut out the question.
You tell me, why cut out part of a post if you're addressing it? That's because he wasn't addressing it directly.

I didn't cut out anything, stop using this silly misrep. Your claim that mollie is unreadable was bullshit, and my reaction to it was absolutely enough.

I feel this makes players like Mollie and theslimer3 a liability. It's my opinion players such as themselves are fair game to be lynched.

So now slimer too? Noted.

That's my opinion and I stand by it. I respect that you have a different opinion, but I think you're wrong and I do wish you'd see things my way, because I feel I'm not coming from an illogical place here.

You are. Different people have different playstyles. That does not mean they are anti-town and that does not mean they're unreadable.

I have asked for evidence to show that it is possible to read them, but it has not been given to me. I can directly prove that Majiffy

can

be read, as I played a game with him where he was scum and we foiled his plan, ultimately. No one has directly proven to me that Mollie and theslimer3 can be read.

And nobody needs to, because saying they're unreadable is a huge stretch.

That's all I'm asking for. I don't think that's unreasonable.

It is. The majority of the players can be read. If you can't read them, and you're not willing to try in just your first game with them, you're just a bad player.

[Wisdom]

mcqueen, stop posting fluff and tell us who is scum.

[Wisdom]

That's better. Now give us reasons.

[Wisdom]

So you don't have reasons then?

[Wisdom]

Read what? Tell me what exactly you find scummy.

[Wisdom]

Not sufficient.

VOTE: mcqueen

[Wisdom]

I'm glad you like it. But I still don't see the reasons you're voting me.

[Wisdom]

What you are claiming is illogical in the first place, which does not give anyone the need to find any kind of proof to prove you're wrong. Again, it's like you're arguing the sky is red and you need proof that the sky is blue. What you interpret as anti-town isn't anti-town, and who you find unreadable isn't unreadable. This is a fact, not my opinion. You are attacking playstyles.

And I didn't cut anything out of your post, I simply included only the latter part of it, but my answered covered your whole post. Stop with this misrep, you're looking really silly.

[Wisdom]

answers*

[Wisdom]

What exactly do you agree with?

[Wisdom]

^and so has slimer

[Wisdom]

Wisdom's reaction is still scummy. He could have just said that she's been caught or showed me a game, but he didn't. Instead, we got walls of text about how the burden of proof wasn't on him. He's still scum and needs to be lynched.

Nope, you have to make your research on your own. If you find them "unreadable" it means you read all of their games and you found they were never caught.

[Wisdom]

no

[Wisdom]

I'd prefer a D_O wagon rather than a HD one.
In fact,
VOTE: Disturbed_One

[Wisdom]

If you know why, it's enough. I have no need to convince you to vote yourself anyway.

[Wisdom]

Yup, that's exactly what I'm doing.

Vote this guy, folks.

[Wisdom]

I heard there's something called sarcasm, google it.

[Wisdom]

Why Siv?

[Wisdom]

We've already been over this in another game, slimer. You can't act exactly the same as both alignments. Your wincon and extra knowledge affects your posts.

[Wisdom]

slimer, wanna sheep a wagon?

[Wisdom]

Because you have to explain why you find me scummy. The fact 3-4 people found me scummy means nothing, they could easily be the whole scumteam plus one townie.

If you don't explain, you're simply sheeping.

[Wisdom]

What are those spots? You need to be specific.

[Wisdom]

Then I am sorry but that equals "I have no reasons for finding you scum, I just vote you because 3 other people say you're scum". Which equals sheeping.

[Wisdom]

I'll let the others determine if it does or it doesn't.

Btw fakeclaim as town? I hope you did that to confuse scum, because otherwise it's retarded.

[Wisdom]

Considering you're voting town, you're already going against your wishes.

Also, cut the IIoA and start scumhunting.

[Wisdom]

Yeah okay.
Can we lynch this?

VOTE: mcqueen

[Wisdom]

What, are you another VI who wants to prove he's right by lynching himself? I'm coming across many lately.

[Wisdom]

[Wisdom]

And I thought I had seen everything with slimer...

This is a new whole level of VIdiocy.

[Wisdom]

I'm not accepting it. I still suggest we lynch him.

[Wisdom]

Why the hell would anyone claim at this point?

[Wisdom]

The fact you want me to claim is not a good reason. I'll only claim when I am at L-1 with someone intending to hammer.

[Wisdom]

If Wisdom is town, HD scum? D_O scum?

D_O more likely than HD - I think HD was/is genuinely tunneling and D_O used that plus the fact that HD was finding him town in order to fake tunneling on me as well. He misreps a lot more than HD, and his pushes look more fake than HD's.
But HD could be scum too, I am not ruling that out.


In other news, CF continues the townread from tiger in my book.

[Wisdom]

I didn't specifically say "tiger is town" in the beginning, but I said many times that his motives were pro-town and was even questioned on how I am so sure about it by fuzzy and others.
I said it clearly when I said

So we're lynching town today? Cool.

when people wanted to policy lynch him.

[Wisdom]

You've told us that already in 230

[Wisdom]

no to the second and third one.

So if I'm town it means D_O town?

[Wisdom]

And that's only because of meta?

[Wisdom]

And because

of only one game

, to be precise?

[Wisdom]

What in his posts give town vibes other than that he agrees with your scumread (which isn't a townvibe but just satisfying your ego)?

[Wisdom]

I only have to say that if your gut says "D_O must be town because Wisdom must be scum", you'll be probably wrong about both. That's why I asked you to read our exchange but apparently you didn't do it with an unbiased mind.

[Wisdom]

Where did Mitillos do that? I don't even remember it.

[Wisdom]

Nvm, found it. Yeah, if that's his only reason and he keeps pushing you for it, it will be bad.

[Wisdom]

So tell me HD, since you find 512 pro-town (lol)...
Do you agree that "I cut part of his post out" to be anything of importance/a tell/ something? Do you even accept that as valid?
It's probably the last time I'll refer to that because it's ridiculous but here goes;
His question is this:

@ everyone defending Mollie, riddle me this:

If Mollie plays this way every game, then why should we keep her alive? How are you going to know if she got a scum role in this game? I don't care if she plays this way as town, how are you going to figure out her alignment if she's scum?

If you can't read her, then she's just a liability and needs to go. End of story.

which in short says "Mollie is unreadable, nobody can read her, we should policy lynch her." This much is summed up in the last sentence of this quote: "If you can't read her, then she's just a liability and needs to go. End of story."
In my very next couple of posts, I quote this last sentence (which essentially has all the meaning D_O wanted to pass with this qestion), and directly answer to him "So you want to policy lynch mollie?"
To speak with quotes:

If you can't read her, then she's just a liability and needs to go. End of story.

I strongly dislike this. What, are you proposing a policy lynch on mollie now? Who said that nobody can read her?

Therefore I immediately address his question's meaning, and I have quoted the last part which sums it all up. How can he claim that I cut his question out/ didn't address his question/ dodged his question and all this stuff he's saying?

Am I wrong here? Try to look at it objectively and tell me where I am wrong.

[Wisdom]

That's not what his question says.
He doesn't ask "can you read mollie" - he has already determined that nobody can read her, and therefore she should be lynched. Read it and you'll see it.

[Wisdom]

Also look at his answer, he confirms that his purpose was to propose a policy lynch.

If you can't read her, then she's just a liability and needs to go. End of story.

I strongly dislike this. What, are you proposing a policy lynch on mollie now? Who said that nobody can read her?

Yes, I am.

No one said they couldn't read her, but who said they could actually read her? If Mollie plays anti-town every game, then there is no way to prove what her alignment actually is. If she got a scum-role, we'd be none the wiser from her playstyle.

[Wisdom]

That's not how I read it.
The "If you can read it" translates to "Since you can't read her" for me. It looks like he has already determined that nobody can, because in his mind mollie always plays "anti-town" (which she doesn't). And all that without ever having played with her.

But that's besides the point. Did I dodge his question or did I address it? Isn't "you cut my question out of your post" a bunch of crap or it isn't?

[Wisdom]

That's not the meaning his question had for me, and I believe for most people, the way it was worded and in the context it was.
Also, wanting to know if and how someone can read someone is ridiculous. The answer to that is, the normal way that everyone reads everyone.

[Wisdom]

Therefore expecting anyone to answer the "actual question" as you call it was ridiculous, since his question didn't make sense and his context made it seem more like he was just proposing a policy lynch on mollie.

[Wisdom]

Step 2 to Step 3 isn't a normal thought process, nope. The fact he interprets something as scummy/anti-town, it doesn't instantly mean that that player is unreadable.

Also, how could I answer the question "directly" if I didn't get what the heck he wanted to ask? More so when his question doesn't make sense.
I directly answered the question's meaning as I understood it.

[Wisdom]

That's not what his question was saying though.
He was saying "If you can't read mollie (and you guys are telling me you can't since you call her scumtells null), then we must policy lynch her"
I don't see any "Oh no, we can't read mollie, you guys have to tell me how".
If that's what he wanted to mean, it was unclear as fuck and it still didn't make any sense.
And what mollie had done was not even scummy. He interpreted it as such.
Therefore, no. His meaning was not obvious, and neither me nor anyone else was supposed to get it.

[Wisdom]

Yeah but she didn't even play in a scummy way. In addition, he had not even played any other game with mollie so that he would know she plays in a "scummy way" always.

[Wisdom]

Anyway, I give up - you're biased and unwilling to look at things as they are. We should not flood this and make it longer for those catching up.

[Wisdom]

Then vote mcqueen ^^

[Wisdom]

Because we don't have one? You've yet to tell us where I lied.

[Wisdom]

Human/wisdom, can you please try not to go back and forth for 1-2 pages within like 2 hours? That kind of thing is why some of us can't keep up.

I know, but I cannot promise I won't respond to bullcrap posts.

[Wisdom]

Okay, try reading the game then because in the last few pages I discussed this thing in detail with HD. There's no lying there. The only one who keeps misrepping is you.

[Wisdom]

CF, are you gonna vote anyone?

[Wisdom]

So, can we have more votes on mcqueen?

[Wisdom]

Nah this guy outranked you by a lot, slimer

[Wisdom]

Wisdom, what makes you as a player attract town-only tunnelers as opposed to scum-tunnelers? Do you believe that only town will tunnel players in general? Or is it only when they tunnel you? From that post #491, D_O did continue his "bullshit" and you waited 48 posts to place a vote after testing the waters with Mcqueen. What took you so long to build-up the courage?

It's just an observation from my completed games - usually I tunnel on town and town tunnels on me. Sure, scum will also tunnel on me on occasion. But usually it's town that does. As for voting D_O, I was pretty hesitant exactly because of that - I was finding hard to understand that scum press on such bad accusations and insist on their misreps so much. It's like the logical fallacy that says "too scummy to be scum" - although a fallacy, sometimes there are things that are hard to see coming from scum. But I don't know, tunneling has its limits, and the more it continues I am starting to see him as scum.

Here is another post that is off from what Wisdom had originally coined as his thought process. Here is an example of Wisdom arguing that using your gut to get alignments off of players based on who they are pushing, is probably wrong.
Yet, here much earlier on, he uses his gut-read of HD being scum giving him the ability to say Mollie is town in his case against HD.

That was an one-off comment I made at the time - I don't support mollie is town because of that. I don't even support mollie is town.

[Wisdom]

to believe*, not to understand

[Wisdom]

When people wanted to form a HD wagon. If we had to form a HD or a D_O wagon, I'd want a D_O one, for reasons I have explained. So I started it.

[Wisdom]

HD wagon had 2 or 3 votes at the time, and the last vote before the following post (which is right before my D_O vote) was on HD by BeautyAndTheBeast.
So D_O posts this:

Also, if anyone hops on the HD wagon instead of the Wisdom one, I do think I will largely lose my mind.

implying that the two possible wagons for someone to join are mine and HD's.
I reply to that by voting D_O, explaining I'd prefer a D_O wagon to a HD one.

[Wisdom]

My post was based on what D_O posted, I didn't even count how many HD votes had. So no, I didn't limit myself to anything.

[Wisdom]

How did my scumread limit my vote? My scumread implied there were two wagons and I started a third one.

[Wisdom]

You could see it this way: I was hesitating to voting him and that post made me wanting to start a wagon. Maybe it was the fact he was implying those two wagons are the only viable choices.
I am back to mcqueen because I don't like his posts at all, and I think that he's faking a VI.

[Wisdom]

@Wisdom - What did you and what do you now think of Fuzzy? How does this impact your view of McQueen?

I thought he was overcautious and was stating things he didn't need to, which were scum signs.
130 made me lean more newbtownish than scum, making me unsure.
mcqueen also could be either, but I lean scum more than actual VI.

[Wisdom]

I disagree with your whole third paragraph, and it makes you seem even more scummy.

Also, why is D_O's attack terrible? I think he was pretty clear.