Open 465 - Wot's... Uh the Deal? (Game Over! Town Win!)


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Post Post #1175 (ISO) » Tue Dec 11, 2012 4:09 pm

Post by Adam-12 »

Ok, thank you. :)

Vote Count
Thor665 (L-2): Shrimp85, Adam-12, ProHawk
Mantisdreamz (L-4): borkjerfkin
ProHawk (L-4): Malakittens
Malakittens (L-3): Mantisdreamz, Thor665
Shrimp85 (L-4): Leviathan93

Not Voting: Guile

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Deadline is Monday, December 17, 2012 at 12:40 PM EST
Last edited by Majiffy on Tue Dec 11, 2012 7:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post Post #1176 (ISO) » Tue Dec 11, 2012 4:20 pm

Post by Mantisdreamz »

In post 1170, Thor665 wrote:@Mantis - you should vote Mala or Shrimp.

i'm voting mala at the moment, but i think i could go to shrimp.
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Post Post #1177 (ISO) » Tue Dec 11, 2012 4:29 pm

Post by Mantisdreamz »

UNVOTE: malakitten
VOTE: shrimp

Adam and Mala, what are your thoughts on him?
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Post Post #1178 (ISO) » Tue Dec 11, 2012 4:33 pm

Post by ProHawk »

I refuse to support a Shrimp lynch at all today. I am 85% sure he is town with his town-slip at the beginning of the game despite playing poorly recently.
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Post Post #1179 (ISO) » Tue Dec 11, 2012 4:35 pm

Post by leviathan93 »

how are you so sure something was a townslip? thats just like saying something is a scumslip. what is the basis for them? its a perception thing, i'm wondering.
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Post Post #1180 (ISO) » Tue Dec 11, 2012 4:38 pm

Post by Adam-12 »

Well Shrimp needs to get into the thread and post ASAP. His town slip looked even beyond genuine to me. If he ends up being scum he needs some kind of award for that one.
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Post Post #1181 (ISO) » Tue Dec 11, 2012 4:52 pm

Post by Mantisdreamz »

all he really said though was that he thought Adam was fishing for PR's. and that mollie soft claimed one.
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Post Post #1182 (ISO) » Tue Dec 11, 2012 5:01 pm

Post by ProHawk »

You are all missing the point of the town-slip. He clearly didn't know the difference between a town PR and a scum PR. The only way for him not to have known about the scum PR would have been for him to have not received that role PM. Both scum role PM's are power roles.

Revisit my Post Here for Clarification
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Post Post #1183 (ISO) » Tue Dec 11, 2012 5:02 pm

Post by ProHawk »

Scratch that, he could have known it was a scum PR and have been faking it, but reading his posts in general he seems to be the think-out-loud type of a poster and not the type to edit his posts for his own gain. Hence my 85%.
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Post Post #1184 (ISO) » Tue Dec 11, 2012 5:04 pm

Post by Adam-12 »

I agree. For him to be screaming it like he did, I mean man that's gotta be Oscar material.
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Post Post #1185 (ISO) » Tue Dec 11, 2012 5:05 pm

Post by leviathan93 »

or he could have just been stupid like i was reading him to be in the beginning. =/ i wouldn't have understood that I was a pr if I had gotten scum.
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Post Post #1186 (ISO) » Tue Dec 11, 2012 5:13 pm

Post by ProHawk »

What exactly are you trying to say here Levi? Please explain "i wouldn't have understood that I was a pr if I had gotten scum."

What wouldn't you have understood? Did you not read your role-PM? Would you not have noticed the similarity if your role PM would have said "Tracker-Immune" and then you saw when I asked Molly if she was "Tracker-Immune or Watcher-Immune?" What exactly is confusing about that?
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Post Post #1187 (ISO) » Tue Dec 11, 2012 5:17 pm

Post by ProHawk »

Ok Mala, if you already stated it, allow me to re-outline my own case from what I see in your posts: Click the Spoilers to see the Actual Posts.

Spoiler: Post 166
In post 166, Malakittens wrote:Prohawk:

I think your case on Shrimp was a bit graspy.
Basically you are going after Mollie and Shrimp. As Mollie stated trying to "provoke" her and the case on Shrimp is weak.
This play is incredibly different from our most recent Micro Game.

Highest FoS so far.


- Graspy case on Shrimp - Different from Earlier Game.
- Provoking Molly - Different from Earlier Game.

Spoiler: Post 170
In post 170, Malakittens wrote:So, is your play style completely different from Micro game where we were both town? Yes.
Am I completely sold that you are scum? No, but I'm planning on digging for your thoughts.

Something is off.


- Play Style is Different.

Spoiler: Post 253
In post 253, Malakittens wrote:ProHawk isn't acting totally innocent to me, but he's acting scummy. He wanted to get Guille a hammer on him without allowing Guille to explain or even having CodeX post his reads or views on any material. To me finding connections based off one post is hard depending on whether or not Codex or Guille were to flip scum.


- Post insinuating a Guille Hammer.

Spoiler: Post #777
In post 777, Malakittens wrote:Oh please murder me now, I left off on Page 18/31. I blame Adam!

[Most parts not related to ProHawk removed for ease of read]

Hey Pro, why did you poke at me for saying the same thing as Levi, but didn't say the same thing to Levi in his post #708.

I'm so glad you are trying to direct attention for me for lurking when I feel that you are constantly jumping into arguments and then laying back as they take off into fireworks.

:(
I tend to get twitchy and paranoid and panicky as town rather than scum.

&&&&TLDR&&& (Or something to that nature)

I'm getting twitchy posts from Levi lately. He's no longer much of a town read as it was before the game started. Weak scum read.
I'm going to watch ProHawk, I don't trust him. Leaning scum.
Adam has become a town read.
PM a town read.
Bork is a mild-town read.
Not really sure what to make of Guille.
Mantis is a weak town read. I want to watch for caution though.
Shrimp is town.


- Directs attention to a lurker, but backs off of wagons when they explode into fireworks.

Spoiler: Post 871
In post 871, Malakittens wrote:2. I am toying with a Levi/Pro team. You are acting a bit different than I saw you act the last time. You know exactly how I play, but choosing it to build a case against me for it. I also feel as if you'll start something, but then gradually walk away from it as it begins to fuel into a large flame.


- Acting a bit different.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So as of now, this is the only case that you have presented against me. I gave you a chance to refine your read but you decided to blow it off. I am going to say it again, meta cases don't hold water,
especially
when you don't do them right. Each time we finish a game we learn different methods, different play-styles that we can incorporate or adapt into our current play-style which will effectively change our meta. We get rid of things that don't work and incorporate things that do. People are not static, they are dynamic. Saying that because I am not playing the same as when I was town does not mean that I can't be town now, or that I am scum. You haven't even compared my play-style now to how I have played as scum. Take a look at it Here - Newbie 1262. I think you will find it quite a bit different to my current style. So if I am acting different than when I was town and acting different than when I was scum what does that make me?

Both my posts with the "graspy" case on Shrimp and my insinuating hammer of Guille (I never asked for one, just said that it was going to happen.) were both parts of my scum-hunting process. The first led to an obv-town slip. The second led to three important reactions in particular which I will soon be addressing.

I am not really sure I see or understand this backing off when they explode into fireworks thing... perhaps you can provide some specifics for me.

Anyway, feel free to latch onto some of Thor's many arguments toward me being scum, or any of my more recent shady posts if you feel like it will solidify your case on me.
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Post Post #1188 (ISO) » Tue Dec 11, 2012 5:20 pm

Post by leviathan93 »

I understand thats what I would have gotten, and maybe they technically are pr roles' but maybe its cuz i personally don't see them as it and thus i wouldn't have stated it. plus maybe he was just trying to stop all pr's from coming out so no one would know who possibly was a pr so it would protect all of them and thus scum themselves.
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Post Post #1189 (ISO) » Tue Dec 11, 2012 5:22 pm

Post by leviathan93 »

also your surety in the matter bugs me. i'm not necessarily sure but its what I currently believe in going for at the moment. do you not want me to lynch your partner hawk? is that why you defend shrimp?
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Post Post #1190 (ISO) » Tue Dec 11, 2012 5:36 pm

Post by ProHawk »

Yes Levi, I do not want you to lynch my town-partner Shrimp. My 85 percent surety bugs you? Or the fact that Shrimp will not be lynched today?

Whether or not they are "pr roles'" is irrelevant. The point is he thought that what I was asking was related to town and not scum therefore he was either A) Acting to gain cred or B) Honestly had never seen the scum role-card.

I can understand this coming from you... but Mantis?

Mantis, you need to seriously sit down and read Shrimp's post. What I am seeing from you is either honest confusion or opportunistic voting trying to get Shrimp lynched because he is an "easy" target with his more recent set of posts. Because in the slip-up he wasn't saying
Adam
was asking for PR's he was saying that I was. I want to hear your thoughts on this when you have all the facts straight.
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Post Post #1191 (ISO) » Tue Dec 11, 2012 5:45 pm

Post by borkjerfkin »

Thor wrote:@Bork - literally no one else has expressed scum feelings towards Mantis. You either need to start screaming and present a succinct and compelling case, or move to your #2.

Yeah.

I seriously have no idea where she's coming out on the whole Thor/Mollie situation. She's referred multiple times that we should lynch Mollie/Thor just so people will stop harping about how anti town Mollie was being ( #833 / #1052), but is still listed as a scum read (#1005), and to top that off, has been avoiding that wagon like the plague for quite some time now. Doesn't make sense.

Her read on Levi is all over the place. I think her Levi flip from town to scum was absolutely awkward as hell (I referred to this in an earlier post). I think she was forced to switch him back to a townier read because I called her out on this (or maybe because there was no support for his lynch, but you can see this happening in #657 and onward -- he very quickly becomes one of her towniest reads again.

Her read on Shrimp is similarly dissonant -- see below

Mantis 1005 wrote:
unsure
shrimp - his posts are reactionary. had him as town initially, but the read is starting to fade, partially because he hasn't been around much lately.

How do you get from here to a vote? Before that, you were:
1) Voting mala
2) Talking about possible partnerships between her and prohawk (#1029)
3) Not even remotely expressing a real scum read on shrimp (you call him town but say that read is dwindling partially due to inactivity -- how does that even work? and if it's just partially that, what else is it?

Why switch wagons here? Where did your read on Mala go?

Mantis 1169 wrote:I know that scum buddy and bus. but it was a sort of rough thing to go off of at the moment. i'm not as certain that scum would bus on day 1 (where there is only 2 of them), which is what made me make those loose conclusions.

This seems extremely naive to the point that I don't think you think this. Scum (even 2 man scum teams) balls deep bus in probably about half the games I'm in.

She's, for the most part, averse to even talking about me despite that "maybe I should be lynched" (#1072). I don't see how that statement's town motivated if she's not going to try to make any progress toward that goal.

I'm not against changing reads (far from it), but I just see so much disconnect between her words and her voting patterns here that I don't think these reads are genuine,

re: Thor wagon: Thor is actually seeming town to me now. This is mostly meta wrt to how he's handling suspicion of him, and based on previous personal experience where he did nothing but try to discredit me when I tunneled on Thorscum (and it pretty much worked). Thor's being so much more breadth-first, patient, and less of a jackass here concerning ProHawk & Adam tunneling on him that it gives me pause.
re: Mala wagon: I can be talked into this.
re: Shrimp wagon. prohawk is spot on with Shrimp townslipping. I'm not voting shrimp like ever.
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Post Post #1192 (ISO) » Tue Dec 11, 2012 5:50 pm

Post by leviathan93 »

UNVOTE:

yes prohawk, your surety bugs me. all surety does in this game. it either means you are scummy or you are wrong. at least in my opinion. i may have not played many games but everytime i see someone so sure of themselves it is either or. and ok. it does sound like a townslip. i never denied this fact. but he still has just seemed almost really useless to me as of late and that is giving me scum vibes.
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Post Post #1193 (ISO) » Tue Dec 11, 2012 6:00 pm

Post by Mantisdreamz »

In post 1181, Mantisdreamz wrote:all he really said though was that he thought
Adam
Prohawk was fishing for PR's. and that mollie soft claimed one.

^just realized my mistake in that.


Prohawk - post 68, was kind of obvious that you were being tongue in cheek-like. Shrimp could have been exaggerating your intentions to make you look bad.



In post 68, ProHawk wrote:
Your role should say either Tracker-Immune or Watcher-Immune. That's probably why you don't see anything about blacksmith bizness. Which one is it by the way?


In post 146, Shrimp85 wrote:By the way, I just realized this while skimming through ISO's...
Pirate mollie, did you seriously just claim to be a PR? post 66.
NEVER, I mean, NEVER do that...
And WTF Prohawk, I can't believe you just posted that. Post 68
You are seriously asking her to give her PR role out?
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Post Post #1194 (ISO) » Tue Dec 11, 2012 6:28 pm

Post by Adam-12 »

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Post Post #1195 (ISO) » Tue Dec 11, 2012 6:30 pm

Post by Adam-12 »

Is that two town slips??
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Post Post #1196 (ISO) » Tue Dec 11, 2012 6:32 pm

Post by Adam-12 »

The gift that keeps on giving...
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Post Post #1197 (ISO) » Tue Dec 11, 2012 6:36 pm

Post by Adam-12 »

Let me try one...

In post 68, ProHawk wrote:
Your role should say either Tracker-Immune or Watcher-Immune. That's probably why you don't see anything about blacksmith bizness. Which one is it by the way?


In post 146, Shrimp85 wrote:By the way, I just realized this while skimming through ISO's...
Pirate mollie, did you seriously just claim to be a PR? post 66.
NEVER, I mean, NEVER do that...
And WTF Prohawk, I can't believe you just posted that. Post 68
You are seriously asking her to give her PR role out?


Its kind of obvious that he is rolefishing here and actually trying to determine which PR Mollie had either Tracker or Watcher. AMIRITE??
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Post Post #1198 (ISO) » Tue Dec 11, 2012 7:11 pm

Post by ProHawk »

I believe that as we get down to the deadline that our two clear lynch targets are going to be Mala or Thor. PEDIT: I would also be willing to compromise on a Mantis lynch after Borks post although I see her as being less likely to flip scum over Mala or Thor.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Mala

Mala has recently popped up on my radar as scum after she started to take a
back seat
in the game from a
front row seat
. Her actual scum-hunting posts where she seems to care about finding scum were pretty good at the beginning.

Post #14 - Got the town out of RVS on the first vote.
Post #53 - Well thought out post
explaining
why Shrimp deserved to be pressured along with
questions
to help determine a true read.
Post #166 - Decent overall reads post filled with questions.
Post #170 - Good backup post to her vote.

And this is where the really good hunting posts stop. Subsequent posts are mostly just answering questions and defending either herself or others. Also compare her initial posts to her filler posts of literally no content. #393, #397, #686, #769, #771, #773.

Scum-tell because she changed mid-game? No. She could have easily just have ran out of time to keep up with a fast-paced game. What I find very suspect is her reaction to being called out on it.

In post 689, Malakittens wrote:Hey Pro, lay off, I have supplied content.


In post 722, Malakittens wrote:Fuck off Prohawk. I am busy with school. My lack of input in all of my games should show that. >.>


In post 1174, Malakittens wrote:I was looking at Mollie's post regarding Levi's scum slip. Then I realized that it could have been a scum slip.

The "reason" was for the second thing he quoted. The reason for my lack of content.


In post 321, Malakittens wrote:See. I knew me saying that I like to lurk would make you roll your head towards me.


Its clear to me it has struck a nerve. I don't see it as a town reaction to having limited time/availability. Not really a strong tell, but evidence to be brought to the table.

Here is where my real scum-read pops up. She has this obsession with meta-based alignment tells. It starts with:

In post 170, Malakittens wrote:ProHawk:

Your ISO reads the following:

Levi is probable town.
Mala got us out of RVS stage. I was going to lean that you are probably calling me town. >.>
Attacks Mollie.
Pokes at Adam.
Tells Adam to stop taking the grilling from Mantis as Mantis is "fencesitting"
Attacks Shrimp.
Stops attacking Shrimp and goes back to Mollie.
Calls Shrimp obvstown.

So, is your play style completely different from Micro game where we were both town? Yes.
Am I completely sold that you are scum? No, but I'm planning on digging for your thoughts.

Something is off.

In post 171, ProHawk wrote:Answer: Meta analysis is in my experience not a good indication of alignment.

Who wants to maintain the same play-style throughout all of their games? No-one. And this is regardless of alignment.

We all learn things as we play and decide to improve on what doesn't work, while implementing things that do.

Evidence: Compare our Micro Game to my Recently completed town game here. You will see they are drastically different, just as my play here differs.

If you care to do an accurate and thorough meta analysis, you need to read my first scum game here.

When you can explain how my different meta equates to scum, I will say you might have a case. Until then your case on me is more washy than the one I had on Shrimp who scum-slipped as town.


My response never gets an answer. She doesn't go read my scum meta, at least she never comments on it. Fine, not a big deal.

In post 309, Malakittens wrote:Mantis. I'm very quiet during Day 1. If I survive Night 1 I'm able to figure out who scum is by Day 2 and by Day 3 I have the whole team. Don't underestimate me by a long shot. I am hunting, but I was reaction testing.

I'm sticking up for Guille because Adam, but Levi were putting him as actively lurking when he wasn't. He said it in his own post.


Why is this a problem? First, this post pretty much marks the decline in her quality/content of posts. For example, all of her really useless filler posts come after this. It seems like she is trying harder to maintain her town-meta image after post #309.

Second, It is pretty clear from her posts that she feels meta is a good indicator of alignment, despite making posts saying that it isn't. She will therefore make sure that she is playing consistent with her town-meta in order to be able to provide such as evidence to her innocence. As such, using it as proof for being town is not strong evidence by any-means. I believe that Mala-scum wants her personal meta to be her fall-back in case she has to defend herself. Notice how excited she got when Guille said he had a meta-case on her but was waiting to post. She mentions it four times in quasi-succession (#1012, #1014, #1023, #1086).

Also worthy of note:

In post 501, pirate mollie wrote:guille read one of my old games is that typical for scum to do on this site or are they like bork and can't even read the game that they are in? in my experience scum tends to be the latter.


After this ^ comes...

In post 600, Malakittens wrote:Adam.. Do you have a finished town game, here or another site?


In post 689, Malakittens wrote:Also, Guille it's hard to meta someone with one completed game. >.>


In post 762, Malakittens wrote:Mollie. I checked Tit and that's your only completed game. The newbie is not finished therefore I can't meta you.
I can handle reading harsh things as long as they aren't directed towards me. So possible link offsite games


In post 1021, Malakittens wrote:Cool, I have just witnessed the first time I ever saw a scum-Guille play in another game.

Brb, going to meta him from that game to this game.


Coincidence that all of these posts about going to meta someone came after Molly pointed out that scum usually don't read other games? Could be, but Mala does think its a town-tell as pointed out here.

In post 777, Malakittens wrote:No
I have seen town more times out of ten meta someone rather than scum.


She sees it as a town-tell and is going out of her way to mention that she is reading other games and meta someone. That smells fishy.

So Mala, why did you decide to change your playstyle mid-game? Also, what is the deal with you being all over meta-analysis when you have stated twice that they aren't good indicators?
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Post Post #1199 (ISO) » Tue Dec 11, 2012 7:38 pm

Post by Majiffy »

Grumble grumble post counts grumble grumble.

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