Mini 1397: War is Hell (Game Over)

[Tierce]

Because I'm sexier than you. And I've been providing content.

Oh, by the way--

Pseudo Votecount 1.3

(5)

PeregrineV

- Zdenek, Tierce, quadz08, Kinetic, Voidedmafia
(1)

MattP

- Xalxe
(1)

Albert B. Rampage

- Yosarian2

(6)

Not voting

- Albert B. Rampage, kanyeknowsbest, PeregrineV, scooby,

(Voidedmafia,)

MattP, Lady Lambdadelta


Let me know if there are any mistakes.

[quadz08]

Were you expecting me to come right out of the gate with my analysis, or something?

Yes.

Also, I agree with Tierce's 424.

*party*

[Kinetic]

P-EDIT: Yes, yes, I get that. To be frank, I agree with Kinetic. 7 votes is a bit too much to ask for. 5 votes for Pere came awfully easy, though, so perhaps that's a little low, but that may well just be an outlier experience. If you two really can't agree then why not compromise on 6?

6 was only floated after several posts of PV demanding 7. By that point I was (and still sort of am) stuck on 5 votes being plenty for this type of game. It has to strike a careful balance between "enough consensus" and "not wasting too much time/delaying". We've been remarkably patient so far, but the game has been open nearly two weeks at this point, it might be best to start some hurt'n.

It takes 7 to lynch in a normal game of 13, so why not 7?

Because this isn't a normal game. Yos's concern about voting taking too much time is valid, but we need a consensus. 7 would be preferable, but if it takes us as much time in this game as it does in a normal game to move from 5 votes to 7 then who knows what advantages the scum may gain.

Working from the last War in Heaven games we know two things:

1) An uncoordinated town will lose.
2) A town that takes too much time will lose.

We need to strike a balance between those two extremes. That's why I felt like 5 was the perfect "enough" consensus.

I see your point. However, If this is a normal sized mafia game, there are 3 scum. If 2 town and 3 scum decides someone dies, you can guarantee it'll be town that dies. This doesn't have to happen more than a few times to screw town over.
I think that we should stay with 7 for the first lynch. If this doesn't appear to work, we can modify for next lynch.

If he had come with, 6 is more acceptable in THAT post, I would have been more inclined to maybe concede. But no, even though he agreed with my points, he stubbornly said, it still must be 7. At that point I felt it was a scumslip/delaying tactic and when I really started looking at PV as scum.

And for PV who is trying to claim credit on this "compromise", read his post:

I

might

compromise at 6, but the last 7 days were also Thanksgiving week/weekend, and being in a hurry doesn't help when nobody is posting.

Bolding mine. He "might" compromise. It is couched in language making it seem like I'm the one being unreasonable, when his only argument is "Well in a normal game its like that". Even when he agreed with me that my two reasons for bringing a lower "vote" count made sense in this game he still wouldn't move off of seven until I basically brow beat all of his arguments and the rest of the game was agreeing with how scummy he was being.

At this point, 6 is not a compromise I'm willing to accept. 5 is plenty. I feel like the hurting should begin because I've reaffirmed myself that PV is scum.

[Kinetic]

P-EDIT: Yes, yes, I get that. To be frank, I agree with Kinetic. 7 votes is a bit too much to ask for. 5 votes for Pere came awfully easy, though, so perhaps that's a little low, but that may well just be an outlier experience. If you two really can't agree then why not compromise on 6?

6 was only floated after several posts of PV demanding 7. By that point I was (and still sort of am) stuck on 5 votes being plenty for this type of game. It has to strike a careful balance between "enough consensus" and "not wasting too much time/delaying". We've been remarkably patient so far, but the game has been open nearly two weeks at this point, it might be best to start some hurt'n.

It takes 7 to lynch in a normal game of 13, so why not 7?

Because this isn't a normal game. Yos's concern about voting taking too much time is valid, but we need a consensus. 7 would be preferable, but if it takes us as much time in this game as it does in a normal game to move from 5 votes to 7 then who knows what advantages the scum may gain.

Working from the last War in Heaven games we know two things:

1) An uncoordinated town will lose.
2) A town that takes too much time will lose.

We need to strike a balance between those two extremes. That's why I felt like 5 was the perfect "enough" consensus.

I see your point. However, If this is a normal sized mafia game, there are 3 scum. If 2 town and 3 scum decides someone dies, you can guarantee it'll be town that dies. This doesn't have to happen more than a few times to screw town over.
I think that we should stay with 7 for the first lynch. If this doesn't appear to work, we can modify for next lynch.

If he had come with, 6 is more acceptable in THAT post, I would have been more inclined to maybe concede. But no, even though he agreed with my points, he stubbornly said, it still must be 7. At that point I felt it was a scumslip/delaying tactic and when I really started looking at PV as scum.

And for PV who is trying to claim credit on this "compromise", read his post:

I

might

compromise at 6, but the last 7 days were also Thanksgiving week/weekend, and being in a hurry doesn't help when nobody is posting.

Bolding mine. He "might" compromise. It is couched in language making it seem like I'm the one being unreasonable, when his only argument is "Well in a normal game its like that". Even when he agreed with me that my two reasons for bringing a lower "vote" count made sense in this game he still wouldn't move off of seven until I basically brow beat all of his arguments and the rest of the game was agreeing with how scummy he was being.

At this point, 6 is not a compromise I'm willing to accept. 5 is plenty. I feel like the hurting should begin because I've reaffirmed myself that PV is scum.

[Kinetic]

I hope you like hemp rope, because that's what's for dinner.

Oh no, there are no lynches in this game. We get to burn this bird .

[quadz08]

If you feel that way, why haven't you thrown a hurt at him yet?

[Xalxe]

Okay, I've been following but today is apparently "post things" day or something so here's my two cents:

1) I do want LLD's perspective RE: Tierce's Votecounts. I thought Tierce was the one that said that was scummy but rereading, it was her.
2) I want to make it very clear to Matt that from this point on, I will follow every post of his with a quote of every question he hasn't answered yet, starting with Yosarian's, until he answers them. Too many times I've seen scum get away with not answering things until everyone forgets them and I'm not letting him do this.
3) Could someone explain to me why all of a sudden PV is a better choice than Matt? I mean, both are scum, but I feel like more information, if nothing else, is gleaned from Matt's death.

[quadz08]

How is more information taken from Matt's death?

[Voidedmafia]

Voided, you need to explain in your next post how and why I am a null read. Go.

Patience, LLD, patience. I just got home, so that re-read has yet to happen. Most of those reads were rought remembrances from my readthrough as a neutral observer. you, in particular, are null because I need to refresh myself as to what I think about you.

Quadz: Remnd me, why exactly was I scummy for what I opened up with as if I didn't match up to your expectations as a replacment? Were you expecting me to come right out of the gate with my analysis, or something?

Yes, because this game is small, and not a lot happened. If you read it at least once you should have

something

to say.

Okay...given that we're in no hurry to actually finish today and there no overly pressing issue to deal with (claims, guilties, etc.), what's the rush for me to get my analysis out?

P-EDIT: Yes, yes, I get that. To be frank, I agree with Kinetic. 7 votes is a bit too much to ask for. 5 votes for Pere came awfully easy, though, so perhaps that's a little low, but that may well just be an outlier experience. If you two really can't agree then why not compromise on 6?

That's a good idea.

Well, why not officialize it, then? (though I make 6 votes, anyways.)

P-EDIT: So, are you saying that you

Don't

agree with Tierce at all and 251 was sarcastic?

No, I don't agree with Tierce. I had no idea what her reads where other than me as scum and Matt as scum, and her Matt reason was he was arguing with her.
So yes, sarcasm.

Ah, I see.

P-EDIT: Still, Kinetic, would you agree that the 5 votes on Pere came a little too quickly to be comfortable? Even if Pere sounds like he's hedging his views and trenching in on 7 votes, it feels like 6 would be best to err on the side of caution.

[Kinetic]

If you feel that way, why haven't you thrown a hurt at him yet?

I was just contemplating that. And frankly, we have 6 votes anyway with LLD.

Fine, I was the first to heal, let's get this rock rolling.

*Kinetic balls his hands together, producing a flame between his palms. This flame can be both a life-giving flame, or a flame of destruction, depending on his choice. He channels his anger into the flame, making it burn hot, then seizes that power and directs it at PeregrineV.*

HURT: PeregrineV

[Xalxe]

How is more information taken from Matt's death?

When Matt dies, his alignment (town or scum) sheds light, at the very least, on myself and Tierce offhand. PV death sheds light on his wagon; the only other reads he's given is all relative to theory and is basically useless.

[Voidedmafia]

Roleplaying, Kinetic?

HURT: PeregrineV

[Xalxe]

How is more information taken from Matt's death?

When Matt dies, his alignment (town or scum) sheds light, at the very least, on myself and Tierce offhand. PV death sheds light on his wagon; the only other reads he's given is all relative to theory and is basically useless.

Oh also Kinetic too.

[Kinetic]

Voided, you need to explain in your next post how and why I am a null read. Go.

Patience, LLD, patience. I just got home, so that re-read has yet to happen. Most of those reads were rought remembrances from my readthrough as a neutral observer. you, in particular, are null because I need to refresh myself as to what I think about you.

Quadz: Remnd me, why exactly was I scummy for what I opened up with as if I didn't match up to your expectations as a replacment? Were you expecting me to come right out of the gate with my analysis, or something?

Yes, because this game is small, and not a lot happened. If you read it at least once you should have

something

to say.

Okay...given that we're in no hurry to actually finish today and there no overly pressing issue to deal with (claims, guilties, etc.), what's the rush for me to get my analysis out?

P-EDIT: Yes, yes, I get that. To be frank, I agree with Kinetic. 7 votes is a bit too much to ask for. 5 votes for Pere came awfully easy, though, so perhaps that's a little low, but that may well just be an outlier experience. If you two really can't agree then why not compromise on 6?

That's a good idea.

Well, why not officialize it, then? (though I make 6 votes, anyways.)

P-EDIT: So, are you saying that you

Don't

agree with Tierce at all and 251 was sarcastic?

No, I don't agree with Tierce. I had no idea what her reads where other than me as scum and Matt as scum, and her Matt reason was he was arguing with her.
So yes, sarcasm.

Ah, I see.

P-EDIT: Still, Kinetic, would you agree that the 5 votes on Pere came a little too quickly to be comfortable? Even if Pere sounds like he's hedging his views and trenching in on 7 votes, it feels like 6 would be best to err on the side of caution.

At first, yes. But as we've had time to see it, and PV has responded, I feel much more comfortable in it. The 5 came quickly, but they've been building up for a while. And in a way, LLD is 6, so we have 6 players who are ok with hurting our dear scum.

[Kinetic]

Roleplaying, Kinetic?

HURT: PeregrineV

Flay loves to add little bits of flavor to the hurts and heals, and yes, I like it as well .

[Xalxe]

At first, yes. But as we've had time to see it, and PV has responded, I feel much more comfortable in it. The 5 came quickly, but they've been building up for a while. And in a way, LLD is 6, so we have 6 players who are ok with hurting our dear scum.

Make it 6.5; the speed makes me balk but as I said, Matt and PV are scum 1 and scum 2.

(this is me not hurting yet until my #3 is addressed)

[Tierce]

I was scum in the first Fluffydash MLP game, and was speed-wagoned to L-2 on D1. It's entirely possible he's scum, and this Day has been anything but fast so far.

[Xalxe]

It's not speed of the day, it's speed of the votes.

[quadz08]

*Eyes glowing, I snap my fingers. I watch PeregrineV's body snap to rigidity, then suddenly relax again. It's clear that he's been weakened.*

HURT: PeregrineV

[Tierce]

As I said--I've been speed-wagoned as scum. There is nothing wrong with a wagon forming quickly if there is good reasoning behind it.

[Zdenek]

unvote: PV

I have to read, and don't want him dead before then.

[PeregrineV]

There isn't much of a risk in dragging because we only increase HP-from-Heal when Rage accumulates, and The Fonz's buddy method can be disastrous. Yes, voting is slow, but we don't have deadlines, and it creates patterns that are easier to study than the buddy plan.

I'm wondering if we should only let general Townreads inflict Hurts--like scumreads should be the ones Healing surprise Rage attacks.

What "town" words are you referring to?
...that said, it would probably be ridiculously hard to implement. It's hard enough to herd cats (heh) into getting communal scumreads, communal Townreads are yet another layer of difficulty and slowing the game down.

How about doing anything that does not involve theory? You clearly have time in your V/LA to read these posts over and mull on the implications, so I don't see how you can't take 5 minutes to read someone in context and in ISO and form reads.

As I said--I've been speed-wagoned as scum. There is nothing wrong with a wagon forming quickly if there is good reasoning behind it.

Is that why you've neglected hurting me while voting me?

Slow it down, speed it up, talk mechanics, but scum if I do?

You did this in Paranoia Mafia. Ain't happening this time.

[PeregrineV]

unvote: PV

I have to read, and don't want him dead before then.

Ahh, but truly, what are the rules? I have 5 votes on my, should the hurting continue? Or is six the number?

[PeregrineV]

If you feel that way, why haven't you thrown a hurt at him yet?

This is instigating. Why did you feel you needed to wait to hurt me?

If you feel that way, why haven't you thrown a hurt at him yet?

I was just contemplating that. And frankly, we have 6 votes anyway with LLD.

Fine, I was the first to heal, let's get this rock rolling.

*Kinetic balls his hands together, producing a flame between his palms. This flame can be both a life-giving flame, or a flame of destruction, depending on his choice. He channels his anger into the flame, making it burn hot, then seizes that power and directs it at PeregrineV.*

HURT: PeregrineV

I did notice that scum last game liked to focus on me. Not surprised.

Roleplaying, Kinetic?
HURT: PeregrineV

I guess that analysis with the whole reread thing wasn;t really necessary after all, huh?

*Eyes glowing, I snap my fingers. I watch PeregrineV's body snap to rigidity, then suddenly relax again. It's clear that he's been weakened.*
HURT: PeregrineV

There it is. Lead from the rear.

[quadz08]

Yes, because I have been so reticent to make my opinions known this game.