Mini 1397: War is Hell (Game Over)

[MattP]

- The attack on him for disappearing was unwarranted.

- The attack on him for skimming when he said Kinetic rather than PV is poor because people get names wrong all the time.

- I disagree with the "setup to vote LLD" as being scummy. LLD's attack was reaching and him wanting her to explain herself makes sense.

- The logic of his attacks makes sense to me.

Here's what I agree with:

- I regard the points relating to him not playing to his post in Mafia Discussion as fairly weak. That argument seems to be something more along the line of a he's not playing what he believes is an optimal strategy argument as opposed to a he's scum argument. It's not an unreasonable point; I just don't think that it's good case for him being scum.

- the OMGUS happened, but I believe this is a bad scum-tell.

- the AtE, this has come up a lot, and it's the thing that I would actually be surprised if he did it as scum, but that's wifom so I like I said, if you want to lynch him for it, I don't care.

God damn it. This is a really good post.

Grumble

unvote

.

I'll admit, I'm not 100% sold on the Matt case,

but

I'm having trouble with his targets as well. Xalve I can see. I would even put PV above Xalve, but I'm not seeing LLD and I'm not sure why he's 100% on Zd as well (although, granted, I've moved Zd to scummy neutral on my list away from solid scum). If anything, that is selling me more on the MattP case then on Tierce's attacks. I agree on his quadz town read though, and although I'm not 100% on his play, I do agree on Tierce though so he's not completely out of it.

Bolded should be "and" then because it makes no sense, it's like saying "I dislike you but I don't enjoy your company"

I don't understand why you thought Zdenek's points were good and it looks not like weird flipflopping because of this new post. I don't understand how you thought Zdenek's points were good (and I would like you to explain how they were good) and then fencesat here and then through out crappy weird opportunistic reads on three lurkers and said without knowing anything about them that there are 1-2 scum there. It's very sloppy

[MattP]

and it looks a lot like weird flipflopping*

[MattP]

threw out*

Wow I suck

[Kinetic]

- The attack on him for disappearing was unwarranted.

- The attack on him for skimming when he said Kinetic rather than PV is poor because people get names wrong all the time.

- I disagree with the "setup to vote LLD" as being scummy. LLD's attack was reaching and him wanting her to explain herself makes sense.

- The logic of his attacks makes sense to me.

Here's what I agree with:

- I regard the points relating to him not playing to his post in Mafia Discussion as fairly weak. That argument seems to be something more along the line of a he's not playing what he believes is an optimal strategy argument as opposed to a he's scum argument. It's not an unreasonable point; I just don't think that it's good case for him being scum.

- the OMGUS happened, but I believe this is a bad scum-tell.

- the AtE, this has come up a lot, and it's the thing that I would actually be surprised if he did it as scum, but that's wifom so I like I said, if you want to lynch him for it, I don't care.

God damn it. This is a really good post.

Grumble

unvote

.

I'll admit, I'm not 100% sold on the Matt case,

but

I'm having trouble with his targets as well. Xalve I can see. I would even put PV above Xalve, but I'm not seeing LLD and I'm not sure why he's 100% on Zd as well (although, granted, I've moved Zd to scummy neutral on my list away from solid scum). If anything, that is selling me more on the MattP case then on Tierce's attacks. I agree on his quadz town read though, and although I'm not 100% on his play, I do agree on Tierce though so he's not completely out of it.

Bolded should be "and" then because it makes no sense, it's like saying "I dislike you but I don't enjoy your company"

I don't understand why you thought Zdenek's points were good and it looks not like weird flipflopping because of this new post. I don't understand how you thought Zdenek's points were good (and I would like you to explain how they were good) and then fencesat here and then through out crappy weird opportunistic reads on three lurkers and said without knowing anything about them that there are 1-2 scum there. It's very sloppy

"I'll admit, I'm not 100% sold on the Matt case,

but

I'm having trouble with his targets as well." Maybe "as well" isn't the right word choice. Basically, while I don't like Tierce's case, I don't agree with who you find scummy as much. Your scum reads feel off to me, and your play hasn't been what I expect.

As for ZD, I liked the

post

, not quite all the points. The post seemed like a very good town post hence why I backed off of Zd, but I didn't sign on to every single one of his points. I think that is your issue. You think because I agreed that Zd's post was good and a town-like post, that I implicitly signed on to all of his points against your case, but that isn't the how I saw it. I'm still suspicious of you, I'm just not completely sold you're scum yet. You've been acting a lot different from the last game we are in, both when Tierce pointed it out, and even now. I'm trying to figure out what that means still.

As for the "opportunistic reads", come off it. I was having trouble with my reads of people who were contributing and I decided to do something else to let it all settle out of my mind before coming back to those reads. I said there could be 1-2 or zero scum in them because I couldn't find anything. It was basically saying, AT BEST, maybe there are 2 scum there, but I don't think that is the case. Therefore, I turned up nothing of real value.

Nothing is inconsistent there.

[quadz08]

What was the point of 363, Kinetic?

When I have trouble with some of my reads, or when I don't have a solid scum read on someone I will sometimes go to the people who are not doing anything and see if there might be scum there. Not a lot of those people in this game though, which means I'm missing something probably.

Fair nuff.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Bit busy right now, can't add anything content wise at the moment, but as per requests and keeping a unified town plan: HEAL: PeregrineV

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Actually, I have given it a quick read through and I have a few things to say.

Firstly, I don't see how I was misrepresenting Matt's disappearance from the game. When he was pushing for Charter to answer his questions, and fighting with Tierce, his activity was off the charts. He had an entire page that was nothing but him and Quadz posting back and forth. I don't think that him suddenly dropping his content level to a place where it was noticeably different and in my opinion trying to lay low, immediately after pressure started to mount on him. You're going to have to explain how that's a misrep Quadz.

Secondly, I don't see how my point about his setting up a vote on me is stretching, over the top or anything of that sort. I called him on flip flopping his reads like a mad man, like a scum who is trying to find a vote that will gain some traction to save himself. I saw his posting about me and immediately recognized it as a setup for a future vote. You'll notice that I was not incorrect and that he has followed up on what I said he would. So I'll need an explanation on how that's a misrep too.

Finally, given I've explained all my thought processes very clearly this game, and answered every question directed towards me (except that stupid one about parroting Tierce's reads because that's obviously untrue[p.s if you're looking for an actual misrep, you need not look any further]), I'm curious how Zdenek can claim that Matt simply wants me to "explain myself" and then ignore the fact that Matt has LITERALLY explained NOTHING this game. He's answered NO questions posed of him, not about his town or scum reads. So I'd like you to explain firstly how I didn't explain myself and 2) explain how it's ok for Matt to demand explanations but not for Tierce or I to do so (it would appear you conveniently ignored this).

[Xalxe]

@Yos: Getting to you now

How goes this?

[quadz08]

I'm assuming that post is directed mostly at me, LLD.

1- I really don't see how you think Matt disappeared after pressure hopped on him. He responded to people voting for him and calling him scummy, then people discussed other things, and that's when he disappeared. That's aside from the simple fact that being away from MS for a few hours (even immediately following a heated discussion concerning oneself) is not an alignment tell at all. Being gone for a couple of days? That I'd buy as a scumtell. A few hours, no way no how.

2- "I saw his posting about me and immediately recognized it as a setup for a future vote." That is an outrageous statement to make. I feel that the only things making Matt's posts read to you as "he's mentioning so his vote later won't seem forced" versus "he pointed something out about me and later voted me for it" is confirmation bias.

3- I'm not sure this is directed at me, because I don't think I've said that you haven't answered questions directed at you. I do think that claiming at this point that Matt hasn't answered questions posed to him, because I think he has (at least in the past few pages, maybe not so much during the initial rant).

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I'm assuming that post is directed mostly at me, LLD.

1- I really don't see how you think Matt disappeared after pressure hopped on him. He responded to people voting for him and calling him scummy, then people discussed other things, and that's when he disappeared. That's aside from the simple fact that being away from MS for a few hours (even immediately following a heated discussion concerning oneself) is not an alignment tell at all. Being gone for a couple of days? That I'd buy as a scumtell. A few hours, no way no how.

2- "I saw his posting about me and immediately recognized it as a setup for a future vote." That is an outrageous statement to make. I feel that the only things making Matt's posts read to you as "he's mentioning so his vote later won't seem forced" versus "he pointed something out about me and later voted me for it" is confirmation bias.

3- I'm not sure this is directed at me, because I don't think I've said that you haven't answered questions directed at you. I do think that claiming at this point that Matt hasn't answered questions posed to him, because I think he has (at least in the past few pages, maybe not so much during the initial rant).

It's not the amount of time, it's the frequency of posting and the content he was posting. Just because someone posts something every day doesn't mean that they're adding content to a game. This is what I'm driving at. The second pressure applied to him, he tried to lay low on Tierce and I, which he is still doing by avoiding our questions and points.

I will grab you the post that made me think the second in just a moment here. I'll even bold what made me think it.

3rd one wasn't directed for you.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

As for PV

pedit: I actually have a LOT of good townreads right now and if I pushed anyone it would be really rough and counterproductive,

so I'm just going to wait until the lil sheep I'm spying comes back to graze in the fiery pits of hell.

This was in reference to PV's first post, which gave me a scumvibe mainly before of the fluffy non-productive way of it.

I see your point. However, If this is a normal sized mafia game, there are 3 scum. If 2 town and 3 scum decides someone dies, you can guarantee it'll be town that dies. This doesn't have to happen more than a few times to screw town over.

I think that we should stay with 7 for the first lynch. If this doesn't appear to work, we can modify for next lynch.

The killers should be the ones voting.

Votes will be tracked.
Votes without reasons should be subject to the most scrutiny.

This also seems very postured and too dumbed down / stiff, specifically the bolded parts. I don't see a SLIP like you supposedly see

I don't like when he calls me scum out of the blue, but

I don't like it any less than LLD's comment, which I'm very curious to genuinely see her response to my post to her.

Oh boy I missed this until I saw Tierce quote it.

So let me get this straight. This is the mother of all setup posts to hop onto me in your next post with a vote?

Because that's what it looks like you're doing buddy. Bet you were hoping to get away with it too with that whole "abrasive" bullshit you started. Trying to devolve this into a bunch of useless insult war and pointless argument about how you don't like me or something of the sort.

Not. Gonna. Happen.

You're gonna have to account for the fact that you've now gone from Charter to Tierce to Charter to PV to Tierce to PV to Me in a matter of PAGES with no logical progression to show for it. First sign of you trying to worm your way out of this with bullshit excuses or trying to fight me with the whole "you're abrasive and mean wah wah" shtick, you're dead.

Now go ahead and make my day.

I bolded the setup for you.

This is a typical scum play. I've seen it done and done it myself. You state your curious for a response, giving the setup of logical progression, then wait for a response and then vote them for the response, either giving a BS reason (usually something opinionated, like GUT or "reaction testing" etc.) or just giving no reason at all. The setup was there and further, after calling him on it he did exactly what I said he would in response.

I don't see how I'm stretching with this at all.

[quadz08]

I just don't see how you can

know

that motivation exists. You present it like it is fact. I'll agree that it's a valid possibility, but it's far from a certainty.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I just don't see how you can

know

that motivation exists. You present it like it is fact. I'll agree that it's a valid possibility, but it's far from a certainty.

I'm Lady Lambdadelta, Witch of Certainty~.

Basically, I play my reads mostly by intent. I find intent reads to be the most valuable in the game. It's my honest opinion that his intent there was to make the setup and the response I got, in my opinion, proved me right.

I present it like a fact because that's how I do things. I am certain I am correct, and I have no room for doubt. Even in situations where I am wrong and find out later, if I don't have faith in my reading capabilities I can't expect anyone else to either. Further, if I don't have faith in my ability to do what I know I can do, I'll second guess myself into oblivion.

Doesn't mean I don't pay attention and change my reads as they go. Doesn't mean my reads are static, infact they're quite dynamic. It just means that I'm very confident in what I see and I'm willing to push it until I see something that makes me want to stop.

It's never worth doubting your instincts, intuitions and general reading ability just because something is technically only a "possibility". At least not in my opinion and in my playstyle.

So in short, yes from the point of view of a person observing this game, my statement would only hold water as a possible event, from my point of view, given what I've experienced, the position Matt was in when he made the comment and how he responded to everything, I feel I can say these things with a given amount of certainty.

[Mr. Flay]

kdowns shudders briefly; his outline reforms into that of Voidedmafia. "ᵴђᵻǂ, that sucked..." he mutters, then looks around before joining the fray.

Fifth Damage Tally of Epoch I:

• kanyeknowsbest
  ,
  MattP
  ,
  Kinetic
  ,
  quadz08
  ,
  Tierce
  ,
  Zdenek
  ,
  Yosarian2
  ,
  Xalxe
  ,
  kdowns
  Voidedmafia
  ,
  PeregrineV
  , and
  Lady Lambdadelta
  are all at their default HP total after getting and giving Heals.
  
  

  ---

  
  
• scooby
  and
  Albert B. Rampage
  are undamaged.

[Tierce]

UNVOTE: MattP
VOTE: PeregrineV

I'm done waiting. Super lurker 3000 still doesn't have an answer to the simple question of what reads of mine that have "reasons" he agrees with.

Kill it.

[Tierce]

Hey, PeregrineV.

You see, I know for a fact that you are full of crap.

MattP is scum. Just ask you. Also agree with all your other reads.

ll of the

[reads]

where you gave a reason

that wasn't based on game theory

.

The reads I had shared so far are:
quadz - Town
Kinetic - Town
MattP - scum
PeregrineV - scum

I gave no reason for my Townreads on quadz and Kinetic.

Your agreement with me on MattP is vapid and reeks of skimming and seeing my vote for him and choosing to tag along, but with no actual commitment to a vote. My one other read was YOU, who I called scum.

So tell me, dear PereV. Which of my reads do you actually agree with? Because at the tome of your post,

I had given no reason

to any of them besides the one you had already "agreed with" and

you

.

You're trying to paint yourself as a confident follower of someone who is, frankly, as obvTown as they come ("but Tierce calling yourself obvTown is scummy"--oh

shush

). The thing is that you are clearly,

obviously

not even bothering to scumhunt, and happily posting everywhere but here. And my experience with you tells me that yes, you

can

be that bad as scum.

[quadz08]

LLD: I understand. Just know that it will make people question you more than they would if you were to present things in a different light.

Tierce: this thing where you call yourself obvTown is annoying as fuck so stop it, especially because you aren't this game. You're probably town, yes, but far from obvAnything. That said, I agree with you on PV, and I will join you in this crusade.

VOTE: PV get your ass in thread and post some actual things please

[Kinetic]

Vote PV

Band wagon hoooo!

[Lady Lambdadelta]

LLD: I understand. Just know that it will make people question you more than they would if you were to present things in a different light.

Tierce: this thing where you call yourself obvTown is annoying as fuck so stop it, especially because you aren't this game. You're probably town, yes, but far from obvAnything. That said, I agree with you on PV, and I will join you in this crusade.

VOTE: PV get your ass in thread and post some actual things please

Of course. Playstyle things are playstyle things. Personally I like being questioned on my reads like you're doing because it means people are

paying attention to my reads.

It also provides another method for me to observe their intent in a DIRECT manner which is WAY more effective than trying to decipher intent from a conversation I wasn't having.

Everybody is the winner! \o/

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Also, I'm down with this. Wanted PV dead from the minute he was posting those votecount shenanigans.

Vote: PV

[Tierce]

Pseudo Votecount 1.1

(5)

PeregrineV

- Zdenek, Tierce, quadz08, Kinetic, Lady Lambdadelta
(1)

MattP

- Xalxe
(1)

Albert B. Rampage

- Yosarian2

(6)

Not voting

- Albert B. Rampage, kanyeknowsbest, PeregrineV, scooby, Voidedmafia, MattP


Let me know if there are any mistakes. Might as well do this myself since I'm running page-by-page VCs for my modded games.

[Kinetic]

Ok... now I'm almost getting skittish. I want to unvote until he at least returns enough to say something, but at the same time I feel like he might very well lurk or replace to buy himself time. Especially if he's scum...

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Actually, hold on.

Unvote

ABR, Kayne, Scooby, Voided (just replaced in so different than these other three) all need to provide sufficient content to this game before I feel comfortable putting PV in the hurt range that Kinetic is suggesting.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Ok... now I'm almost getting skittish. I want to unvote until he at least returns enough to say something, but at the same time I feel like he might very well lurk or replace to buy himself time. Especially if he's scum...

You need to stop being a ninja. It's hurting my feelings.

[quadz08]

^5 to LLD for beating me to the punch