Mini 1397: War is Hell (Game Over)

[Tierce]

Likely Town. Otherwise I wouldn't be asking him to back down somewhat.

[quadz08]

Agreeing with someone about mechanics issues is not a reason to think they are town. I think his setup spec is posturing as town, and he's given no reason for us to actually think that it's anything more than that.

A) I don't only agree with him on mechanics, I agree with him on reads too.
B) I think his setup speculation comes from a town mindset. Scum doesn't present things the same way he does. See my aforementioned townread on Kanye; it's pretty much the same reason.
C) I don't think his setup spec is posturing as town, I think it

is

town.

Your responses to Kinetic have been very OMGUSy and generally fairly terrible. I'd like to see you step back from the game for a day or two, then re-read the arguments put forth to you. See what responses you can come up with when it's not fresh and you aren't frustrated.

[Zdenek]

Likely Town. Otherwise I wouldn't be asking him to back down somewhat.

So you wouldn't tell him to back off if you thought he was scum?

Which arguments that I've made against him do you disagree with?

Agreeing with someone about mechanics issues is not a reason to think they are town. I think his setup spec is posturing as town, and he's given no reason for us to actually think that it's anything more than that.

A) I don't only agree with him on mechanics, I agree with him on reads too.
B) I think his setup speculation comes from a town mindset. Scum doesn't present things the same way he does. See my aforementioned townread on Kanye; it's pretty much the same reason.
C) I don't think his setup spec is posturing as town, I think it

is

town.

Your responses to Kinetic have been very OMGUSy and generally fairly terrible. I'd like to see you step back from the game for a day or two, then re-read the arguments put forth to you. See what responses you can come up with when it's not fresh and you aren't frustrated.

b) Comparing Kinetic with Kanye on this point is a joke. Kinetic has blindly stated that he thinks that declaring all rage is a good idea, he's given no concrete reason for why he holds this belief and has attempted to muscle his idea through by declaring me scummy for disagreeing with him, while never addressing even one of the concerns that I've raised. On the other hand, Kanye, has given a specific way in which claiming rage might be used to scum hunt:

FOr example, assume that most townspeople would have accrued 3 rage at a certain point in the game and a ton of rage just got dumped. forcing proof that everyone has the amount of rage they should have (3 minus whatever they claimed to use before) then scum are either caught here or must spend 3 less rage for scum purposes than they otherwise would be able to. this may or may not be possible but theoretically i like it as an idea.

I'm not voting Kinetic because he is voting me, so the accusation of OMGUS is out of line. Telling me that you think my responses are fairly terrible, providing no examples and reasons is bullshit, and I'm not going away because I've caught scum, and want them dead.

You suggesting that you think that I'm frustrated while you're voting me doesn't make a heck of a lot of sense.

[Kinetic]

Perhaps my meta is a bit dated, but I'm referring to a variant of the "Tarhalindur Chainsaw Defense". See here. The normal version would be if someone attacked me directly. That person would be extremely scummy. The version that Tierce might be using is a variant where you distract the town/wagon that was beginning to form on a scum buddy by instead attacking someone else in the town in an attempt to distract.

That is lulzy. Trying to tie people together before flips works rarely and on day one is just foolish. The stronger version of this tell is even questionable, so you are really grasping at straws with this, especially since you don't seem to have an independent read on either Tierce or Matt yet.

What are you trying to prove when I said something was a preliminary read, when it is incomplete? You're right, let me go get my actuary tables and give you a specific, full-proof case on someone I'm not focusing on right now, and a perfect read. O WAIT, the entire point of everything I've said is that I haven't had the time or ability to do that yet. I'm not grasping at straws, you are. I'm giving preliminary reads on OTHER players that don't matter TO YOU. I'm done trying to explain that to you.

Is that what I said? No, what I said was that I haven't been able to comment as much as I would like to because of MAJOR FUCKING HOLIDAY. Yet, I'm still trying to contribute. The fact that I literally cannot comment on every. single. thing. in the thread is ludicrous. And it also predisposes the fact that maybe I didn't want to comment yet. I've told you I'm not sure, and why I'm not sure, maybe, idk, maybe I wanted to have more to say before I commented? O wait, no, that can't be. That is so obviously a town reason, that it can't possibly be what Kinetic is doing.

The issue is what you are choosing to comment on

AND HERE WE GO! And here is EXACTLY that point. I'm choosing to comment on YOU. To attack YOU. How fucking dare I. Your entire "case" is OMGUS. You are attacking me because I would DARE point out how scummy you are being and the fact that you're scum.

[Kinetic]

And just so you know, if all town claim rage, all scum MUST claim rage as well. I've already figured out three ways to catch scum if they don't, and no, I'm not revealing them to you scum. Keeping rage hidden is a scum-tactic because it allows scum to hide their rage usage. Those usages may be more powerful than all town usage combined.

You only want rage on "accepted lynches", but how is claiming rage usage incompatible with that idea? I've already said I'm not against that idea, IN ADDITION to claiming usage.

I'm trying to tip-toe around the issues that scum will have because town is on board to claim any rage usage, because I want to catch a scum lying.

[quadz08]

b) Comparing Kinetic with Kanye on this point is a joke. Kinetic has blindly stated that he thinks that declaring all rage is a good idea, he's given no concrete reason for why he holds this belief and has attempted to muscle his idea through by declaring me scummy for disagreeing with him, while never addressing even one of the concerns that I've raised. On the other hand, Kanye, has given a specific way in which claiming rage might be used to scum hunt:

It's like you aren't even reading.

[Zdenek]

AND HERE WE GO! And here is EXACTLY that point. I'm choosing to comment on YOU. To attack YOU. How fucking dare I. Your entire "case" is OMGUS. You are attacking me because I would DARE point out how scummy you are being and the fact that you're scum.

This is a misrep. I am not talking about your case on me, which should have been clear to you, considering that you've already responded to me on this topic today. I'm talking about your decision to talk about the voting plan rather than MattP/Tierce/LLD.

b) Comparing Kinetic with Kanye on this point is a joke. Kinetic has blindly stated that he thinks that declaring all rage is a good idea, he's given no concrete reason for why he holds this belief and has attempted to muscle his idea through by declaring me scummy for disagreeing with him, while never addressing even one of the concerns that I've raised. On the other hand, Kanye, has given a specific way in which claiming rage might be used to scum hunt:

It's like you aren't even reading.

It's like you aren't addressing anything useful.

[Kinetic]

Obviously you're not admitting to OMGUS. It was just a perfect turn of phrase, because that is the issue here.

[PeregrineV]

Thinking about it, we kind of are on a time limit here. If rage accumulates at random intervals, then whenever X time passes, the scum group can just all rage-dump and kill someone. We...might be able to catch them doing that, especially if we follow the "town claim whenever we use rage" rule, but it's dodgy; I think time is not on our side here in this game. We don't want to let the day drag on forever here.

If scum does rage dump, or anyone uses rage not claimed, then we will each heal the person whose name is above ours in the playerlist within 24 hours (preferably less). Anyone that can't will be scum-claiming.

[PeregrineV]

I know Yos expressed some concern about voting taking too long as well. How about a compromise, no hurting someone unless they have at least, say 5 votes. That number may need to be reduced as we get less people in the game, but for now it seems like a good number to keep the game speed up, but also have at least a modicum of support before any hurting begins. Anyone who hurts outside of that we will agree to heal them.

Hell, we could have 2-3 people set aside JUST to heal people who are hurt out of turn, or to react in emergencies to heal someone if scum decide to target someone.

It takes 7 to lynch in a normal game of 13, so why not 7?

[Kinetic]

I know Yos expressed some concern about voting taking too long as well. How about a compromise, no hurting someone unless they have at least, say 5 votes. That number may need to be reduced as we get less people in the game, but for now it seems like a good number to keep the game speed up, but also have at least a modicum of support before any hurting begins. Anyone who hurts outside of that we will agree to heal them.

Hell, we could have 2-3 people set aside JUST to heal people who are hurt out of turn, or to react in emergencies to heal someone if scum decide to target someone.

It takes 7 to lynch in a normal game of 13, so why not 7?

Because this isn't a normal game. Yos's concern about voting taking too much time is valid, but we need a consensus. 7 would be preferable, but if it takes us as much time in this game as it does in a normal game to move from 5 votes to 7 then who knows what advantages the scum may gain.

Working from the last War in Heaven games we know two things:

1) An uncoordinated town will lose.
2) A town that takes too much time will lose.

We need to strike a balance between those two extremes. That's why I felt like 5 was the perfect "enough" consensus.

[Mr. Flay]

Third Damage Tally of Epoch I:

• PeregrineV
  and
  kdowns
  have taken 1 HP damage.
  
  
• Lady Lambdadelta
  and
  charter
  are at 1 HP above normal maximum.
  
  
• kanyeknowsbest
  ,
  MattP
  ,
  Kinetic
  ,
  quadz08
  ,
  Tierce
  ,
  Zdenek
  , and
  Yosarian2
  are all at their default HP total after getting and giving Heals.
  
  

  ---

  
  
• scooby
  and
  Albert B. Rampage
  are undamaged.

Regular activity requirements will be engaged tomorrow. Get to it, demons!

[Yosarian2]

Ok, back from thanksgiving weekend, catching up.

I don't care that Zdenek didn't understand the healing mechanics right away, but I dislike the OMGUS vote for Kinetic here:

I think that the only town use of rage is to speed up lynches. Otherwise it should not be used. There is absolutely no reason for town to claim the use under these circumstances. It benefits town for the scum to not know who has accumulated rage.

this is starting to get beyond the point where it can be excused. His lack of understanding seems to be to try and get information on how to avoid suspicious behavior, when all a townie needs to know is claim rage and everyone else in the game understands that.

If it was so obvious that the rage accumulation health point that we get can raise us over the the base amount, you would have explained here.

Kinetic has tried twice now to paint me as scummy. The first time is over the disagreement about whether or not to claim all uses of rage. Personally, I don't see this as necessary at all, I think that doing it will out town power roles and I think that it benefit town to have scum not know who has accumulated rage. In response to this, Kinetic has simply repeated his belief that it's a positive thing for town to claim and suggested that it might be helpful in scum hunting, but has given absolutely no concrete reason for why he holds this belief. The second time is over what may or may not be a misunderstanding about how the health point for rage accumulation works. Here he's given no reason for why it's so obvious that his interpretation should be the correct one. It could be, but that's not the point. The point is that if it's not obvious, then he has no reason to suspect me over a difference in understanding about mechanics.

Vote: Kinetic

Also, there is a very, very good reason for town to claim rage; if town claims whenever they use rage, then it makes it a lot harder for scum to dump rage for surprise daykills, and easier to catch them if they try.

fos:Zdenek

for the OMGUS

On page 7, we get this exchange:

Heh, bugger that, he'll just spin a pretty tale.
MattP is scum. I don't recall any instances in which he was doing this pussy-footing I'll-wait-for-when-you-get-back as Town. In a game where votes count less than normal (and FoSes are ridiculous, quadz), Matt being this disinterested with unleashing unholy fire on someone (anyone) is just

not him

.

VOTE: MattP

PEdit: Oh there you are. Hi!

I have a target. I am not going to compromise my target. While my target was here I was aggressively questioning him. He is taking a 4 day break from the thread, but I am not going to suddenly become uninterested in him because of that. But don't worry lil babe, after him you're next on my list

I like Tierce's case here, and I hate hate hate HATE hate hate Matt's response.

I mean, really. "Don't worry lil babe, after him you're next on my list"?

My knee jerk reaction is "kill it with fire." My considered, calm, rational decision is "fucking nuke it from orbit". That kind of bitchy, whiny OMGUS just screams scum to me.

fos:MattP

VOTE: Tierce

Wah wah wah Matt's pussy footing

Good job having a tantrum and outing yourself, ask me how much of a fuck I give about your intelligible tissy fit, scum

And here, have some more

fos

[Yosarian2]

Ok, caught up.

Vote:MattP

[kanyeknowsbest]

will catch up 2morrow.

[Tierce]

Oh, come on.

You seriously don't think if I'm so cognizant of my playstyle that I wouldn't mock it as scum, at least to SOME degree, especially if I made it public knowledge?

"I'm not playing to the Town version of the meta you showed, and as scum I would be able to fake it."

But you're wrong, I did choose an early target and I had full intent to tunnel them and I strongly think they're scum. They stopped posting, and after two days I finally called them out passively on it. Then they claimed it would be another two days so I did move to you for your post on Zdenek. I pointed this out prior to you calling me out.

"But I am playing to my Town meta!"

You're contradicting yourself and trying to backtrack. You're either not playing to that meta or you are, and there is no reason to make 171 if you truly think you are playing to that meta as 173 says you are. In addition, waiting "two days" on charter when there were people actively posting is a terrible idea as Town, as it allows everyone else to get rolling and scum will get comfortable. Town Matt doesn't wait on anyone, he would've pushed someone else if charter wasn't available, because Town Matt doesn't give a fig about being wrong, just about shaking things up and getting reads from

that

. You did nothing of the sort.


Zdenek: Very very much not interested in discussing Kinetic now. And no, if I thought he was scum, I wouldn't have asked him to back off from you

and

explained why. I don't want my scumreads to be helpful to Town, and want them

dead

.

[Tierce]

EBWOP:

I don't want my scumreads to be helpful to Town,

I

want them

dead

.

[Tierce]

Mon 26 Nov 2012 02:33:01

Catch up until 158.

Mon 26 Nov 2012 02:34:51

All caught up.

[Yosarian2]

Mon 26 Nov 2012 02:33:01

Catch up until 158.

Mon 26 Nov 2012 02:34:51

All caught up.

Nothing interesting happened on page 8.

[charter]

Was out of town for thanksgiving, should be able to post tonight.

[MattP]

Nothing interesting happened on page 8.

And you knew that in less than 2 minutes?

[MattP]

There was also a half of page 9 to read

And a lot of the posts were big ones

Unless you're the fastest skimmer in the world

[PeregrineV]

I know Yos expressed some concern about voting taking too long as well. How about a compromise, no hurting someone unless they have at least, say 5 votes. That number may need to be reduced as we get less people in the game, but for now it seems like a good number to keep the game speed up, but also have at least a modicum of support before any hurting begins. Anyone who hurts outside of that we will agree to heal them.

Hell, we could have 2-3 people set aside JUST to heal people who are hurt out of turn, or to react in emergencies to heal someone if scum decide to target someone.

It takes 7 to lynch in a normal game of 13, so why not 7?

Because this isn't a normal game. Yos's concern about voting taking too much time is valid, but we need a consensus. 7 would be preferable, but if it takes us as much time in this game as it does in a normal game to move from 5 votes to 7 then who knows what advantages the scum may gain.

Working from the last War in Heaven games we know two things:

1) An uncoordinated town will lose.
2) A town that takes too much time will lose.

We need to strike a balance between those two extremes. That's why I felt like 5 was the perfect "enough" consensus.

I see your point. However, If this is a normal sized mafia game, there are 3 scum. If 2 town and 3 scum decides someone dies, you can guarantee it'll be town that dies. This doesn't have to happen more than a few times to screw town over.
I think that we should stay with 7 for the first lynch. If this doesn't appear to work, we can modify for next lynch.
The killers should be the ones voting.
Votes will be tracked.
Votes without reasons should be subject to the most scrutiny.

[PeregrineV]

Tracking starts now.

UVC-1.1

MattP (2)

- Tierce, Yosarian2

Zdenek (2)

- Kinetic, quadz08

Tierce (1)

- MattP

Kinetic (1)

- Zdenek

Not Voting (7)

- Albert B. Rampage
charter
kanyeknowsbest
kdowns
Lady Lambdadelta
PeregrineV
scooby

[Tierce]

^^^ Would also lynch this. ^^^

Can we get MattP Today and PereV Tomorrow?