Kingmaker II-Game Over

[petroleumjelly]

Pressuring people is fair enough, and I know that is part of your playstyle. What

I

was saying is that your comments simply struck as

mean

. You basically said "I can't believe PJ was made King over me", which implies that "I would be a much better King than PJ", and the underlying reason that strikes me is "After all, I executed PJscum

last

game, and pretty much pwned scum". I can read between the lines very well, as you know. I was willing to take that as a joke, but after you later said that I "was your playtoy", all you managed to do was put me in a mixture of anger and depression, and make me consider replacing out of this game because:

1.) I already have emotional problems with Kingmaker I
2.) I hate Mountainous set-ups, and this is extraordinarily close to being a Mountainous set-up
3.) I am already strapped for time in games and real life, and I am seriously questioning why I signed up for this in the first place because this game will clearly require quite a bit of dedication
4.) Being King on Day One is an extraordinary amount of pressure to put on me, since now I feel obligated to:
--> A.) Keep discussion fairly focused
--> B.) Make sure my opinion is known on practically

everything

, moreso than usual
--> C.) Not try to "abuse" my power by unneccessarily throwing people on my LoE
--> D.) An overwhelming self-imposed need to execute scum today, since failing in doing so will probably doom me to a similar fate of TSS in Kingmaker I
4.) As soon as the game begins, your comments have been pretty much directed towards how awesome you must be for having executing me in Kingmaker I (which circles back to Reason 1)

I already feel as if I am under an undue burden of stress, and your toying with my emotions makes me want to throw up my hands and just leave and let somebody else play.

So far as your comment that I was "overstating" the fact that I am town, could you please point out any game where I

have not

mentioned (perhaps overly so) that "I am town"? I am positive you have read Most Mountainousest, which is a prime example of me stating that I am town. I was attacked pretty heavily by multiple people in that game for saying that I was town... and surprise, surprise... I was town. This is almost paralleling the attacks on me for being "Too Townie". I can assure you that me saying "I am town" is not a scumtell on me, because I will say it pretty much every game I ever play in.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I believe PJ is protown.

[ShadowLurker]

Since so much controversy and past allusions are being made to Kingmaker I. I believe I will read it, then reread this game, and make a big long post

[ubertimmy]

me too, mos

[cardb0ardb0x]

Good luck with that. It's massive.

[Thok]

Um, then why wouldn't she just say comment? It seems like a weird choice of wording, as though she was essentially admitting she was going to make some sort of active lurking comment that didn't say anything.

I thought you'd appreciate the fact that I'm intending to post, and wouldn't be posting just because you called me out or whatever.. but essentially twas a placeholder.

I can appreciate that you were already planning to post; my concern was specifically about the use of the word non-comment, which seems like an odd choice of phrase. (It seemed to suggest that you'd be delibarately making a contentless response to PJ at a later time, not that you were busy and unable to respond until a later time). If you had said "I'm currently busy with a paper, and I'll comment about PJ once I get done with it", you'd say the same thing, but in a less confusing and.or worrisome manner. But maybe I'm just reading too much into your reasons for using non.

Glork's defense of you is noted, although that really says more about Glork than you. (Ironic, since I'm going to defend myself in this post against the same accusation from Vaughn.)

I agree with the trying to keep the Kingmaker as hidden as possible; I was making this argument even before the endgame justification in Kingmaker I. I'd prefer that scum doesn't get a chance to kill a kingmaker who's good at his job in hopes of replacing him with a less talented kingmaker. (IMOMNBTK

I didn't really read the endgame of I, so I'd never really thought about it like that... I honestly couldn't ever think of the Kingmaker as a very important confirmable person. I'm glad you brought that out, that makes it a lot clearer in my mind..

I'll comment that you may have misinterpreted my comments about endgame justification; in the endgame in Kingmaker 1 it was believed to be important to keep the kingmaker hidden to prevent scum from obtaining a position where they could win the game by force (because of the no repeat kings rule and the kingmaker cannot become king rule). Obviously, that justification doesn't apply to this game, as the no repeats rule has been thrown out for endgame.

@spectrumvoid-BMQ will periodically make lists of who is voting for who; you'll recognize them since they're green. He's done two so far.

@cardboardbox-I asked you a question about what you hoped to gain by claiming. I'd like to hear an answer.

@Vaughn-I've been posting my thoughts on much of the activity in this thread (MoS's refusal to vote, cardboard's sorta meltdown, even some random humor by Yos). I also didn't try to justify his actions in my post; I merely explained my reactions to his comments and pointed out that attacking PJ for bringing up his experience as scum in Kingmaker 1 only makes sense if you'd be just as willing to attack me for bringing up my experience as town in Kingmaker 1; the only difference in the two attacks depends on our alignment in Kingmaker 1, which is irrelevant to Kingmaker 2.

[cardb0ardb0x]

I have been posed a question. Here is the question:

@cardboardbox-I asked you a question about what you hoped to gain by claiming. I'd like to hear an answer.

Here's my response to said question.
Let's first look at what has been considored my claim.

if, after you lynch me, i'm a townie, just please, like, examine mrbuddylee.

In mafia games, after one has been lynched, they aren't allowed to post. This "claim" was an attempt to say something that, were I to be lynched, would be useful to the town after I had perished.

Obviously, no one can fully trust me to be on the side of the town at this point. Had I been lynched, I would have become a confirmed dead townie, and therefore things that I had said pre-lynch would be trusted more. I hope my response has satisfied and sufficiently answered your question, Thok.
Also, even though this is kind a moot point, I wasn't saying in that post "Look at me, I'm coming out, I'm a townie." I was saying, "should I be killed and discovered to be a townie, blah blah blah." It sounds like you were victim to miscommunication to me.

[MrBuddyLee]

Although, i still think we need to combine our efforts and concentrate on 3-5 people....

Isn't it a tad early for that?

I still feel like mrbuddylee's attacks on me were a little too vehement and opportunistic. he discovered factual errors and poor logic in my posting, which i suppose would, in the eyes of mafia, make me a really easy lynch.

Apologies. I'll be sure to let your factual errors and logic slide next time.

[Mastermind of Sin]

box is protown. Not very intelligent, it seems, but protown.

[spectrumvoid]

MOD: I voted for phoebus, but it isn't in the vote count. Sometime Sept 16/

.

Phoebus seems more scummy. Someone said that he didn't post for some time, but that's not true. He posted a vote. I agree he still seems scummy.

I believe PJ is protown. His frustration sounds genuine. One question though: did you know this was mountainous when you signed up? (I sympathise with you over points 3-4. *pats*)

While Glork's comments are irritating, I'm not sure they show that he's scummy. It sounds more like someone being immature.

MMOS: care to clarify why box is protown?

[Mastermind of Sin]

MOD: I voted for phoebus, but it isn't in the vote count. Sometime Sept 16/

.

Phoebus seems more scummy. Someone said that he didn't post for some time, but that's not true. He posted a vote. I agree he still seems scummy.

I believe PJ is protown. His frustration sounds genuine. One question though: did you know this was mountainous when you signed up? (I sympathise with you over points 3-4. *pats*)

While Glork's comments are irritating, I'm not sure they show that he's scummy. It sounds more like someone being immature.

MMOS: care to clarify why box is protown?

care to clarify why he isn't?

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

vote Glork

I think his play so far has been more in the interest of browbeating the kingmaker into kinging him for tommorrow than actually

catching scum

Glork's a damn fine player, I have the upmost respect for him, I've read Kingmaker I as well as all of the postgame commentary and my conclusion after having read all that is that the person with the most insight into how the game works and has the highest chance of catching scum in KMII is PJ.

How do I come to this conclusion? I've played quite a few games with PJ, on the forums and on scumchat, he's HIGHLY analytic, actually keeps histories of people he plays with to spot differences, and most important of all, when he's given a position, he will think of a large number of strategies that could be beneficial or not for that position and the thing about people like PJ, the wheels just never stop turning.

If you look at what he's posted for Kingmaker I and the postgame commentary, you would undoubtedly be impressed with the amount of thinking that he's put into that position, but that's just the tip of the iceberg, those are just the ideas that he felt were good enough to share with us or that he had time to write down and post, I have no doubt that he has a plethora of other strategies he's thought of in the scum position that he either rejected or forgot about or just didn't have the time to post. When scum try that in this game, PJ's the guy who's probably got the best chance of picking up on that. How would I know this? Because from my experience of playing with PJ, that's the type of guy I think he is.

I'm pretty sure Glork's got the same idea of how great a player PJ is, he's no fool and he's not a poor judge of character.

Now consider Glork's reaction to the fact that he was not picked as King, what does he do? He decides to browbeat the shit out of the KMer, basically taking the idea that he's a better choice than PJ trying to stuff it down the throat of "whichever poor noob didn't make him king".

What the heck is the point of this? He KNOWS it's a vanilla only game, there's no doctor that can protect him from the baddies! Perhaps he wants to make it absolutely clear to those bad bad mafia that he's definitely the best choice for the nightkill cuz he's going to completely wipe the floor with them if he ever gets the crown?

The above was sarcasm btw.

Glork's trying to imprint the idea that he must be made King into the head of the Kingmaker and disguising that as trying to get a reaction out of PJ by placing him under emotional duress(this is not a good idea, we want to know how PJ would act normally, not how he'll act when he's bent out of shape)

hurry up glorkscum, toss a few buddies under the bus and mebbe you'll fool us ^.^

[Mastermind of Sin]

Then why was PJ made king day 1? He can't be made king again until there are 7 people left, if he's still alive.

[Twomz]

MoS, the KMer could choose to make PJ king Day 3, he just can't choose him on consecutive nights. (see, I asked if anyone had any lingering questions... geez)

[Mastermind of Sin]

Ah.

[Fritzler]

Votre: crashtextdummie

pj kill him
rape him

he is sucum so obviously

[spectrumvoid]

Wow. I really should start learning from PJ. In most games, after page 10 or so I usually make some big mistake. I finally went to read Kingmaker I, and I admire his analysis.

MMOS: Everyone is assumed to be protown until he/she does something that makes him look scummy. That's the way mafia works. Or else I could jsut go around randomly accusing anyone for the entire game. So the onus is on you to explain why he's scummy, not for me to show why he's town.

Argh... I didn't realise Fritz was here. He's on my blacklist of weird players.

[Twomz]

MMOS: Everyone is assumed to be protown until he/she does something that makes him look scummy. That's the way mafia works. Or else I could jsut go around randomly accusing anyone for the entire game. So the onus is on you to explain why he's scummy, not for me to show why he's town.

WRONG!!! Always assume they are mafia unless you have reason to assume otherwise. This isn't the US legal system (where criminals are let go as often as their sentences), this is MAFIA, we want to KILL the MAFIA even if it means there's collateral. Assuming people are innocent is BAD.

Randomly accusing people is good, especially on day 1. You don't want to let them slip through the cracks, you have to check everyone.

Why would you blacklist Fritz... he's one of the funner players in the game (besides me, pooky, PJ, and Glork of course)

[Glork]

There seems to be some misinterpretation of my comments. As snide and biding as they appeared, the initial jokes were rather lighthearted. When the game was still in its early signup stages, MBL and I were talking on AIM, and we joked about how it'd be "ridiculous" if anyone other than me were to become king, given my performance in Kingmaker I (which, I should add, I do *NOT* expect to repeat -- that was a different game, under different circumstances, and I happened to be on top of my game at the time).

vote Glork

I think his play so far has been more in the interest of browbeating the kingmaker into kinging him for tommorrow than actually

catching scum

Wrong. I haven't

FOUND

scum (at least, not for sure), but I'm sure as hell looking for them. As far as "browbeating the kingmaker," I'll address that later. I'm going to consider this general misinterpretation as honest and legitimate, given my posting thus far. But it's a misinterpretation nonetheless.

Glork's a damn fine player, I have the upmost respect for him, I've read Kingmaker I as well as all of the postgame commentary and my conclusion after having read all that is that the person with the most insight into how the game works and has the highest chance of catching scum in KMII is PJ.

How do I come to this conclusion? I've played quite a few games with PJ, on the forums and on scumchat, he's HIGHLY analytic, actually keeps histories of people he plays with to spot differences, and most important of all, when he's given a position, he will think of a large number of strategies that could be beneficial or not for that position and the thing about people like PJ, the wheels just never stop turning.

If you look at what he's posted for Kingmaker I and the postgame commentary, you would undoubtedly be impressed with the amount of thinking that he's put into that position, but that's just the tip of the iceberg, those are just the ideas that he felt were good enough to share with us or that he had time to write down and post, I have no doubt that he has a plethora of other strategies he's thought of in the scum position that he either rejected or forgot about or just didn't have the time to post. When scum try that in this game, PJ's the guy who's probably got the best chance of picking up on that. How would I know this? Because from my experience of playing with PJ, that's the type of guy I think he is.

To be completely honest... I probably agree. As much fun as it would be to try to "continue the streak," I'm not the best player around. In this game especially, I'm probably not the best scumhunter, and my early game play still needs some serious work.

PJ, on the other hand, never lets go. And he usually gets going right off the bat. I got a first-hand account of this in Newbie 254, where he drilled me pretty damned hard before coming to a decision, despite having proclaimed earlier (on a couple of occasions) how he thought there was virtually no way I could not be pro-town. Though I have my personal misgivings about PJ's playstyle (especially how they interact with my own playstyle), I fully recognize his ability to catch scum, and I support the Kingmaker's decision to make PJ the king for Day One.

I'm pretty sure Glork's got the same idea of how great a player PJ is, he's no fool and he's not a poor judge of character.

See above.

Now consider Glork's reaction to the fact that he was not picked as King, what does he do? He decides to browbeat the shit out of the KMer, basically taking the idea that he's a better choice than PJ trying to stuff it down the throat of "whichever poor noob didn't make him king".

A joke. A simple, silly comment that one or two people have chosen to interpret as a jealous, strongarmed, bullying attempt.

But I won't apologize for having made them, and I won't take back anything that I've said to date. I've said it before, and I'll say it again: I have reasons for everything I do.

What the heck is the point of this? He KNOWS it's a vanilla only game, there's no doctor that can protect him from the baddies! Perhaps he wants to make it absolutely clear to those bad bad mafia that he's definitely the best choice for the nightkill cuz he's going to completely wipe the floor with them if he ever gets the crown?

The above was sarcasm btw.

Glork's trying to imprint the idea that he must be made King into the head of the Kingmaker and disguising that as trying to get a reaction out of PJ by placing him under emotional duress(this is not a good idea, we want to know how PJ would act normally, not how he'll act when he's bent out of shape)

This is a bold conclusion to draw, to say the very least. Yes, I'm trying to stir the pot. I'm not one to avoid conflict or to say/do something that will inspire reactions one way or another. PJ's a pretty damned tough kid, and I don't expect there to be any lasting emotional trauma from the comments I've made. I've pushed enough to get a reaction (both from him and from other players), but not enough to detract from his decision-making.




Allow me to reiterate one thing: My comments were not made out of jealousy or immaturity. They were made to apply a different kind of pressure to PJ specifically, to see how he reacts.* While I'd certainly

like

to be made king at some point or another, I am not so selfish or naive that I would insist upon being made King to suit any superficial or whimsical personal desires.

I hope that clears things up a little.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Wow. I really should start learning from PJ. In most games, after page 10 or so I usually make some big mistake. I finally went to read Kingmaker I, and I admire his analysis.

MMOS: Everyone is assumed to be protown until he/she does something that makes him look scummy. That's the way mafia works. Or else I could jsut go around randomly accusing anyone for the entire game. So the onus is on you to explain why he's scummy, not for me to show why he's town.

Argh... I didn't realise Fritz was here. He's on my blacklist of weird players.

I think you're confusing yourself. I'm the one who said he was protown. I'm asking you to explain why he isn't protown. By your own logic, my request was indeed logical, so you should tell me why he's scummy.

[cardb0ardb0x]

Hold on- I just had a flash of inspiration. I don't necessarily agree with this, but I thought of a potential advantage for the town to out the kingmaker. This is a little complicated and probably wouldn't work. The idea is that, as we all know, mafia cannot become kingmakers.

Mafia cannot become kingmakers. There is a way to exploit that fact. This would require several things. First, the kingmaker would have to declare who they are putting in line to become the next kingmaker should they be mafia'd. Second, those in line to become the next kingmaker would have to declare *who* they would choose to be king the next day should they become kingmaker, and each person's selection *must* be different.

Pre-Post Edit: The kingmaker would declare who they would make king the next day, to prevent a false claim. All of this would make more sense if it occurred after the king has pretty much made his/her decision, but before he/she actually posts the Execute command.

Under this system, let's say A is the current kingmaker, and declares B and C to be next in line as kingmakers. B declares he would make D king if B were made kingmaker. C declares that she would make E king if C were made kingmaker. That night, A is assassinated. The next morning, E is made king. Therefore, it can be deduced that B is mafia. Should D have been made king the next morning, it would confirm B as on the town's side. Am I being clear? I think I might have had a false epiphany...

Actually, now that I think about it, this really isn't a very good idea. It gives too much information to the mafia, and could totally screw up the game if a mafia declared kingmaker. It also gives the mafia some really obvious kill targets. This idea is so bad I probably shouldn't even post it. I'm just putting this out there as kingmaker theory- I'm not advocating its use at all.

[Twomz]

The likelyhood that the mafia will just sit there and take out the kingmaker night after night is low. The only effect way to use this to catch scum would be to repeatedly lynch the kingmaker (the only person who we know not to be scum) INSTEAD of trying to find scum and lynch them. If it gets to the point where we've lynched 4/5 mafia, and still have a large lead on them, then we might want to try this to confirm a couple of people or to catch the last scum. But, just using that system as a fake cop probably wouldn't do us any good (about 3/4 townies for every scum we catch... i don't think we have that much leeway).

[Yosarian2]

First, the kingmaker would have to declare who they are putting in line to become the next kingmaker should they be mafia'd. Second, those in line to become the next kingmaker would have to declare *who* they would choose to be king the next day should they become kingmaker, and each person's selection *must* be different.

Dosn't work. It would have worked in the last game, and I and several others suggested variations of the plan in kingmaker I; however, the game has been changed.

The Rules

...

You are the Kingmaker. Each night, you must send two player names to me via PM, and you must indicate which player you wish to become King and which is the backup. You may not choose yourself for either position. If the player you chose to be King is still alive in the morning, they will become the King, otherwise, your backup choice will become King. You may not choose the same player two days consecutively unless, at the end of a Day, there are 7 or fewer players remaining. If you are killed (either by the assassins or executed publicly), a new pro-town citizen will be chosen randomly to take your place as the new Kingmaker. You win when all the assassins are executed.

If the kingmaker dies, a new pro-town citizan will be chosen

randomally

to be the new king. No picking this game.

And actually, that "citizan" wording makes me wonder. Not that it really matters yet, but could a hero become a king this game, or not?

[Mert]

And actually, that "citizan" wording makes me wonder. Not that it really matters yet, but could a hero become a king this game, or not?

Heh, you went to the effort of copying and pasting the Kingmaker description from the front page but didn't read the Hero role while you were at it?

The Hero can become King unless someone tries to execute them and their role is revealed, after which point they can no longer reign.

[Fritzler]

Why would you blacklist Fritz... he's one of the funner players in the game (besides me, pooky, PJ, and Glork of course)

of course