Jack of All Trades Mafia -- OVER!

[Yosarian2]

vote:MrBuddyLee

[Yosarian2]

I'm actually voting MrbuddyLee because he's clearly rolefishing. Or at least rollerskate fishing. Close enough.

[Yosarian2]

Howdy.

[Yosarian2]

What a coincidence! I'm Jack too! You lie!

you're scum this game, aren't you

Just out of curiosity, has that line ever actually worked? Does anyone ever say "yes"?

[Yosarian2]

i hope you're not trying to put me on a guilt trip or anything...

Not at all. I didn't know you felt that way. I respect your feelings, as unflattering as they may be. But I don't play this game to ruin other player's experience of it. With two players that wish me off on factors outside the boundaries of this game, I am happier to withdraw so that you can all have a better quality experience. It's my choice.

No hard feelings. You all have fun. I'm OK. Carry on.

You shouldn't be offended. When there's nothing better to do on day 1, there's nothing wrong, stratigically or morally, with voting for the person you think is the weakest player in order to help your side. Now, I don't think you're a weak player, personally, and I don't especally like the bandwagon on you, but you shouldn't get offended or threaten to leave the game because of it; it's just part of the game.

On that note,

unvote

,

vote:Fritzer

. I know he loves to bandwagon, but that vote just seemed beyond the pale.

[Yosarian2]

vote Max

Forgot about his little stunt in an earlier game hammering HIMSELF when he was the fucking cop.

I don't actually remember this (PM me the link please)

Um, no; this is now a discussion relevent to this current mafia game, at least as some people seem to be going for the "Day 1 lynch the bad player" stratagy and as it relates to BJ's vote for you. So discussions in PM are not approperate, I don't think, unless you and BJ are allowed to PM each other. Otherwise, you have to have this discussion in thread.

Besides, I'd like to see this link as well; if nothing else, sounds like a funny game.

[Yosarian2]

He voted you for a reason, and you're asking him to clarify that reason in a PM. I would say that constitutes talking about this game outside the thread.

[Yosarian2]

I understand the viper bandwagon. Viper has not been helpful to the town this game, and in fact, he almost never is helpfull to the town with his play, so he's probably not a bad day 1 lynch. However, this post looked odd to me.

I'm just saying that I barely looked at this game and forgot about it. What with MeMeMeet and all. I'd like to find a good vote but I don't really see any, is it a correct assumption that the Viper bandwagon is for lurking? And if it is for lurking then why not me as Fritzler stated or any other lurker. After the initial wagon it seemed to me that Viper a little defensive. It seems a solid choice at the moment.

Vote Viper

You're voting viper because he was "a little defensive"? He hasn't even given any kind of real response to the people voting for him at all, he hasn't even tried to defend himself yet. Your vote makes no sense to me, and when someone jumps onto a fast growing bandwagon with a vote that makes no sense, I wonder if they're scum going for an easy lynch.

unvote:fritzer

vote:mlaker

[Yosarian2]

Viper, none of your posts so far this game seem to count fo much. I'm not voting for you, but I do want you to actually comment on game issues and respond to people and stuff.

[Yosarian2]

Holy crap, I think we've done something bad wagoning viper (if my supposition about his role is correct)

Huh?

Not sure why you would make a post like this...if you think viper's pro-town, and you think he's given some hint about his role (I don't see it, but whatever), then why would you draw attention to it, instead of just putting it in your notes and keeping it under your hat? Why would you give hints to the possible role of some other player you think is pro-town?

[Yosarian2]

I think anyone still looking at peoples names should be lynched

unvote:mlaker

vote:Max

I still don't like Mlarker's early scummy looking vote for viper, but I'll give his replacement a chance to respond before I push that bandwagon any farther for the moment. For now, I think I'll vote Max, for trying to get several people lynched for making a huge deal about what was pretty clearly either a joke or a mostly-random vote, depending on the person, neither of which is really an anti-town activity on day 1.

[Yosarian2]

Okay, after re-reading, please explain why tmklakers vote for viper was scummy. I'm open to arguments.

Otherwise, I'm not getting a real good read on anyone yet, so I'm considering an unvote right now, but I'll keep it there for a while yet.

He said he was jumping on the viper wagon because viper was being "a little defensive", but viper hadn't defended himself at all. It looked to me like he was using craplogic to come up with an excuse to jump onto a fast moving bandwagon.

[Yosarian2]

Yes, he asked about the reasons other people were bandwagoning viper, but then voted for him anyway. That dosn't make him feel better about him.

And several people vote for him because they seemed to agree with me that it was a scummy looking post. How does that make you/him look any better?

[Yosarian2]

Oh. My. God. It seems like at least every other post is scummy nowadays o_o.

Ok..care to share what, exactally, you think is scummy?

[Yosarian2]

unvote

vote: Bogre

I backed off to give the replacement a chance to change my mind, but instead he's just giving random scummy OMGUS attacks for no good reason.

[Yosarian2]

Oh. My. God. It seems like at least every other post is scummy nowadays o_o.

Ok..care to share what, exactally, you think is scummy?

People are all over the place saying things are scummy, and it seems unnatural before the triple-vote.

When I asked you to share, I was hoping you'd give some example of which posts you found scummy; you know, quote the posts and say why they're scummy. Or are you trying to not commit yourself to anything solid?

[Yosarian2]

One problem I have about spamwise is this. He said this:

Holy crap, I think we've done something bad wagoning viper (if my supposition about his role is correct)

But then he kept his vote on viper for another 4 days, only removing it because "the bandwagon was stalled."

If I suddenly came to the conlcusion I might be bandwagoning a pro-town power role and wanted to avoid the person having to claim, I'd just quietly unvote or move my vote without making a big deal about it. Spamwise did just the opposite; made a big deal about it (perhaps to fish for viper's role?) but keeping his vote there anyway.

It's also interesting to note that while spamwise loved the viper wagon and the max wagon, the one wagon he has avoided is the mlarker wagon. He never even commented on it at all, and neither bogre or mlarker ever said anything about him, which makes me wonder if they might be scumbuddies (although I realize I'm getting pretty speculitive here).

Spamwise, what do you think about the Bogre/Mlarker wagon? Bogre, what do you think about the Spamwise wagon?

[Yosarian2]

Wow, Max. There are so many things about that post that look scummy, I'm not sure where to begin...

[Yosarian2]

Unvote, vote: Bogre

. Reasons as everyone else has said.

Spamwise struck me as scummy with that comment about "Vipers wagon stalling because his scumbuddies haven't jumped on".

FOS: Spamwise

Yeah, agreed.

If Bogre, or anyone else, has any other reasons or claims or arguments why he shouldn't be lynched, or why someone else should be lynched instead, speak now or forever hold your peace.

[Yosarian2]

unvote

me want claim

From Bogre or from Spamwise?

[Yosarian2]

If someone with an item dies, does that item go to somewhere else, or is it just lost?

[Yosarian2]

Not really true, Bogre. I was suspicious of Mlarker, but unvoted when you replaced in to give you a chance to defend yourself; however, your subsequent posts also looked rather scummy to me, so I voted for you.

[Yosarian2]

yeah, I'm still happy with my bogre vote.

[Yosarian2]

unvote; vote spamwise

This game is dragging, if we're not lynching Bogre, I definately haven't seen any reason not to pressure spamwise.

(shrug) Spamwise is still my #2 suspect. But I'd still rather just lynch Bogre.

[Yosarian2]

It's wierd that Bogre is just letting himself drift towards a deadline lynch without doing anything to try to prevent it. Is there a reason he's not claiming, or defending himself, or arguing for a spamwise lynch, or anything?

[Yosarian2]

Oh, I forgot about that.

Can we just lynch him, then?

[Yosarian2]

Yeah. He's hardly posting at all even on the verge of being lynched. He's either scum, or a vanillia townie who is not and probably will not ever contribute anything much. Either way, not a bad day 1 lynch.

[Yosarian2]

Interesting...I lost my office, huh?

[Yosarian2]

Btw, what are the offices for?

Um, dosn't your role PM say you're in the office of Jack Irving, and tell you what is in that office?

[Yosarian2]

I suspect the moving of offices has to do with the moving of roles.

As such, if im correct, ibby is now a cute little townie.

Awwww.

First of all, I got confused with the switching of offices, but how do you know that Jack Johnson's office was that of a vanillia townie?

Second of all, if you do know that for some non-public reason, why would you share that information with the scum?

And third of all, if I understand the nature of the game and if you are right that Jack Johnson's office was empty, that dosn't mean she's a vanillia townie; it just means she's a vanillia townie

if she's a good guy

. Alignments and abilites are supposed to be completlly unlinked in this game.

[Yosarian2]

Alright...it looks like Spamwise started the game as Jack Johnson, and he certanly never claimed vanillia townie. I'm thinking that lordy's just pulling BS out of thin air at this point.

[Yosarian2]

Actually, no I messed up the offices. Im thinking of the fact that offices determine your role based on my role pm.

And who was in ibby's office resterday? Spamwise.

Vote: ibby

I was merely voicing my theory, and you guys had a nice jump, so
MajorHandOfSuspision: Spamwise.

Um, you do understand why it's suspicious that you tried to out a vanillia townie, no matter if your reasoning was correct or not, right?

[Yosarian2]

Yeah.

vote:Lordy

"I think X is just a vanillia townie" is suspicious enough; then randomally OMGUS voting that same person (who he just said he thought was a townie?) just pushed it over the edge for me.

[Yosarian2]

Lordy still hasn't answered the key question I asked him, either.

If you thought she was a vanillia townie, why would you say so in the thread? Whatever your reasoning was for thinking that (and I've got to say I still don't at all understand the logic behind your speculations), that's an inherently anti-town move; saying "I think X is a vanillia townie" is bad for the town if you're right, and looks like a fishing attempt either way, as how a person responds to a comment like that often shows if they're pro-town or not. It makes me wonder if you're the one blowing up offices (IE:roles) and trying to figure out which offices have the power roles like cop and doc so you can blow them up.

And then, when that was pointed out, instead of answering my questions, you suddenly voted for her when you had just said you thought she was a vanillia townie. Yes, of course she voted for you; you made an anti-town move. Your OMGUS vote on someone you had just said you thought was a vanillia townie makes no sense, and that was what finally convinced me to vote you.

[Yosarian2]

Yos Have you lost your role now your room is gone

Is there any specific reason you think it'd help if I say what my role is at the moment?

[Yosarian2]

I DID NOT CLAIM!!!! NOR DID I CLAIM ALIGNMENT! DO YOU GUYS EVEN BOTHER TO READ MY POSTS, OR ARE YOU ALL JUST SCUM WHO JUST WANT TO CONJURE A LYNCH OUT OF YOUR ASRE SO YOU CAN MOVE ON TO NIGHT AND KILL?

No one thinks you did, Lordy; Kurtz is just defending himself based on what he thought you said.

Lordy, if you want to avoid being lynched, you have to chill out and answer the questions I've been asking you. You know, actually respond to the people who are accusing you, instead of flipping out over a mostly irrelevent side issue and typing in all caps that everyone who suspects you is scum.

[Yosarian2]

Vote Colonel Kurtz

Something just doesn't tick here.... Lordy I've seen act this way before i think and his role makes sense.

Um, did you notice that all-caps thing a few posts up? Lordy has not claimed yet.

[Yosarian2]

I'm saying did your role change when you moved room

I know what you are asking, I'm just wondering if there's any benifit to the town in me saying what role I have now, if any. Unless there's a reason to do so, no sense in letting the scum know if I'm a good target or not.

[Yosarian2]

As too scum? Not sure as yet. Need to think on some more. Not sure it's lordy, as he's been blasted for a claim he never made. Someone on that wagon as been trying to cast him in a bad light.

Again, that's not the reason people are on the Lordy bandwagon.

Interesting to see you defend him with that kind of crap logic, though.

[Yosarian2]

Looks like it's time for me to make a lurker list.


Lurker List:

BabyJesus: Not really a lurker, he did just post on the 1’st, but does it seem to anyone else he’s not posting as much as usual? He’s only posted twice since July 11’th, and I’d like to hear more from him.

Harry_Potter: He just posted, and he did say he’d be out of town until Augest 10’th so there’s no sense prodding him. Nonetheless, even before he said that, he only posted 4 times all game, and has said almost nothing. Once he gets back, we really need to hear a lot more from him.

MrBuddyLee: Lurker. Has not posted since July 18’th. Mod, please prod him.

PookyTheMagicalBear: Lurker. Has only posted once in the past month.

bluemonick (replacing viper0933): Has only posted once since he replaced viper, and that was about a week ago.

[Yosarian2]

Ignoring everyone else, let's see who's bandwagonning:

Lynching Bogre:

Harry_Potter, Fritzler, BabyJesus, lordy, Yosarian2, armlx, Max, MrBuddyLee, mystery meat of doom, zu_Faul, ibaesha, Colonel Kurtz, spectrumvoid

Voting Lordy:

SpamWise, Mastermind of Sin, bluemonick, Yosarian2, BabyJesus, PookyTheMagicalBear, Fritzler

People on both lists:

Fritzler, BabyJesus, Yosarian2

Now, profiling Fritzler and BabyJesus as wild bandwagoners, that leaves Yosarian2. I realize voting Yosarian for

not

being an excessive voter and lyncher seems silly, but there's something less tangible that bothers me about him.

In every other game I've played with Yosarian, I've tended to agree with his logic and can understand a lot of the things he does. This game, however, something seems...

different

. The way he's thinking doesn't really flow with me like it usually does, as if he's playing differently.

Something doesn't sit right with me, and I know it sounds stupid, but I figure it's enough to justify one vote.

vote: Yosarian2

So, you're attacking me because you don't see my logic with the bogre bandwagon yesterday?

Mlaker looked very suspicious, especally when he attacked viper for grounds that just weren't true, so I voted for him. When bogre replaced him, I backed off for a bit, but when bogre continued to look suspicious, refused to defend himself in any way other then accusing everyone who attacked him, and finally just gave up and lurked for ages with a huge bandwagon on him, yeah, I pushed for his lynch.

All you said about the bandwagon all day was this.

Not sure Bogre is scum.

Not really sure we could get to lynch anyone else at this point.

Not sure how a claim would help us, either.

*sigh*

If you disagreed with my logic, you should have said so then.

As for me "not being an excessive voter and lyncher", that depends on the situation. Take a look at Himaliayn mafia, recently finished over in the New York forum. I was a townie, and I was on nearly every single bandwagon all game, townie or scum.

[Yosarian2]

I disagree with the lordy bandwagon. What has he done to seem scummy? There was some confusion over his so-called claim, but I read that as other people misinterpretating what he originally said.

The suspicious things about Lordy was that he first speculated in thread that someone else was a vanillia townie, which is something you should never do as town, then when she voted for him for that he flipped out and OMGUS voted for her back. Both are scum tells.

Anyway, I do think that bluemonick's post was very suspicious, and I'm considering voting him, but I'm not going to join it just yet as it's moving quite fast, I'll wait for him to try and clarify whatever it was he was trying to say in his rather bizzare last post.

[Yosarian2]

I don't think this bandwagon is going to do much, but whatever.

Unvote Vote:bluemonick

...care to clarify that, MC? What do you mean when you say this bandwagon "isn't going to do much"?

[Yosarian2]

Which post is that? There are plenty that are suspicious.

Um, pleanty? he's only posted 3 times. The one that looks suspicious was the one where he voted for me, for reasons that don't seem to make much sense.

Anyway, I'm still wanting an answer to my other question. Why do you think the bluemonick bandwagon isn't "going to do much", and if you think so, why are you on it?

[Yosarian2]

Yeah, fos mc. Terrible, terrible reason to join a bandwagon.

We should still keep focus on bluemonick until he shows back up and at least tries to defend himself.

[Yosarian2]

I'm not sure he knows what he's talking about.

[Yosarian2]

Masterchief, the key question is this. Do you really think it's a pro-town move to get onto a bandwagon just because you don't want to look like you're protecting someone else?

[Yosarian2]

I think these posts need to be reread and looked back on. Bogre claimed townie but yet he was still lynched by this two towards the end. Yosaiain2, that is really suspicious, you just saying, "Can we just lynch him, then?" Isnt that what a Scum wants to do, Lycnch Townies.

(shrug) He was looking extremly scummy, and had completly given up defending himself, and posting all together for that matter. When I realized he had already claimed vanillia (a claim scum often do make, BTW), it seemed like there was no more reason to wait. I wasn't lynching him BECAUSE he was a vanillia townie, I was lynching him because he was either a scum or a vanillia townie who wasn't even posting to defend himself; I thought scum was more likely, but either way I was fine with it as a day 1 lynch, as a vanillia townie who's not posting is completly worthless for the town anyway.

Besides, I have a long-standing belief that a good guy who is vanillia should NEVER claim, while for a scum it often is the best move to claim vanillia, so if someone claims vanillia on day 1 I'm generally very willing to lynch them; I'd rather lynch someone who claimes vanillia then someone who refuses to claim, especally on day 1. There was a long discussion on the subject in the mafia stratagy forum a while back where I make my beliefs on the matter clear, viewtopic.php?t=2872.

[Yosarian2]

Bluemonick: I'm curious. You weren't present for yesterday and your predecessor contributed basically zilch.

What choice do you believe you would've made had you been in the game yesterday when we were nearing deadline?

Lynch someone other than Bogre.

Really? Ok, who do you think looked more suspicious then bogre during day 1? Who would you have tried to get lynched instead of bogre at the point of the posts you are quoting?

[Yosarian2]

What BLUE Monick says he wants to be lynched

seems scummy

I sense a claim

Ok Im mafia if that's what you wanna believe, nothing else seems to be working.

Umm...you could try, like, defending yourself? Answering questions people ask you? Acting like you might want to live or something?

I don't know if you're scum or not, but if you continue to act like this, your lynch is probably inevitable.

[Yosarian2]

Bluemonick: I'm curious. You weren't present for yesterday and your predecessor contributed basically zilch.

What choice do you believe you would've made had you been in the game yesterday when we were nearing deadline?

Lynch someone other than Bogre.

Really? Ok, who do you think looked more suspicious then bogre during day 1? Who would you have tried to get lynched instead of bogre at the point of the posts you are quoting?

[Yosarian2]

More than likely..........ibaesha.

Ok, why?

[Yosarian2]

Because he's very Scumadeltic

She. She's a she.

And I think you're going to need to go into a bit of a better argument then that.

Anyway, you're one away from lynch. If you want to claim, the time to do it probably now.

[Yosarian2]

No offices blown up last night, though, which is interesting. I wonder if the office-blower-upper guy got roleblocked or something.

[Yosarian2]

Well, that could be.

The question is, is the "blows up office" thing an ability in an office somewhere, avalable to whatever scum or townie ends up in that office that night, or is it an inherent scum ability, like killing people?

Either way, I really don't think it was a pro-town move to blow up my office, and I'm very interested to find out who did it. Has anyone been moved into an office that gives you the blow-up office ability? If so, who had that office the night that the ability was used on me?

[Yosarian2]

MOS: these are the offices that have been changed, destroyed, or reopened so far.

The office of Jack Gallagher is locked up, and the rest of you retire for the night.

ibaesha reassigned to Jack Johnson's office
SpamWise reassigned to Jack Quinn's office
Yosarian2, occupying Jack Xavier's office, loses office
Jack Gallagher's office opened[/b]

MrBuddyLee reassigned to Jack Nelson's office
the silent speaker reassigned to Jack Fox's office
Jack Campbell's office opened[/b]

[Yosarian2]

I would guess that the office moves are most likely an ability located a few people's offices, which would mean that either town or scum could end up with the ability. Which also means that we should probably avoid power-role claims as much as possible, because if a certain office has, say, cop stuff in it, scum could quite possibly either destroy it, or switch the person out of it and leave it empty.

[Yosarian2]

Well, that's a fair point, MOS, but if the scum can switch or destroy offices, there really is some information it might be better for them not to have.

[Yosarian2]

From the queau thread:

Your name is Jack. As a good Jack, you have the inherent ability to perform any task, as long as you have the tools to do so. You work in the offices of ACME Industries, a place with many marvellous inventions...so when killers infiltrate the office you will have to use the tools you have to drive them out.

This is the next generation of role-motive split games. Three different layers of role will be assigned randomly and independently at the beginning of the game. Even I don't know what will happen here, but it should be a fun time figuring everything out.

So the mod said "three different layers of role will be assigned randomaly and independenlty at the beginning of the game". So I think it sounds like there's no connection between alignment and what ability you have, and that they were assigned randomaly.

Makes me wonder, though...if one level is your alignment, and one level is what office you are in and what ability that gives you, I wonder what the third layer of role is he was talking about?

[Yosarian2]

Baby Jesus? Pooky? You guys are in this game? Heh...I'd forgotten that either of you were playing. As I look back...Pooky's only posted 3 times since July 6th, and BJ's only posted a few times this month while saying almost nothing. You're two of the more experenced players in this game, we need to hear from both of you guys a lot more then this.

[Yosarian2]

I'm guessing the 3rd layer is blowing up offices. Just a guess though... We've been assuming that blowing up offices is due to a tool that can be found in somebody's office, what if it's independent of everything? As in, the mod just randomly chooses someone each night and asks him/her to choose an office to blow up?

Yeah, it's occured to me that the third layer of roles might be some people who inherently have the power to destroy or rearange offices. If so, though, that would also have been assigned completly randomally and independently, so that's another set of roles that might be town controled or scum controled, no way of knowing.

[Yosarian2]

Harry_Potter, you're not going to get more than that. That's how BJ is. However, in addition to him being generally unhelpful as usual, I don't think his voting has been particularly protown, since that's about the only thing of substance we have from him.

Well, no...he does often make moves and do things without explaining himself, but he says what he needs to when the time is right to nail a scum, if he's pro-town. He has been helpful then usual this game. I'm not sure if that says much about his alignment, as I also thought that in the last game I was in with him, but I agree that we need to hear more from.

[Yosarian2]

Actually, that's a very good point, ibaesha . Harry Potter's the last person who should be attacking someone else for lurking.

unvote

vote:Harry Potter

[Yosarian2]

Well, on the 5'th, Harry Potter said he'd be moving and wouldn't be back until the 10'th. He then did not post for 20 days. I hardly think that excuse covers it.

[Yosarian2]

Vacation, didn't post it..

Lets see.....

Lurker lynch vs.

Last Resort lynch.

Neither seems appealing. I'm staying out of this one.

Who's a "last resort lynch"?

And what makes you think you can just "stay out of this one"? Yaw has just said we'll have a deadline soon if people don't participate more. So, if you don't like the idea of lynching a lurker, who should we lynch?

[Yosarian2]

TSS: to answer your question about why I was a little slow voting Lordy; honestly, Lordy's a player who gets himself lynched all the time. He's constantly making scumtells and other silly moves no matter what his alignmnet is. So when he started acting suspicious, I noted it, and started poking at him to get reactions from him, but I wasn't as quick to vote him as I would have been some other players making the same mistakes. He was looking really scummy, but he ALWAYS looks really scummy, so I gave him a bit of breathing room to see if I could get a better read on him before voting him.

[Yosarian2]

Well, it did not change my alignment or anything, if that's what you're asking. Otherwise, I'm not sure I should say what kind of role I do or do not have at the moment.

[Yosarian2]

Umm...I don't see how I can without claiming both what, if anything, was in my office, and then claiming what happened to it. If the town wants me to do that, I don't have any problem with it, and I understand the curiosity involved.

[Yosarian2]

Umm...I don't see how I can without claiming both what, if anything, was in my office, and then claiming what happened to it. If the town wants me to do that, I don't have any problem with it, and I understand the curiosity involved.

Well, if there's nothing you can say, there's nothing you can say. I'm not really interested in your stuff, more just

you,

e.g. something like:

"I work in the hallway since I no longer have an office. I don't have a character name any more."

At this point, as you mention, I'm only interested in it for curiosity reasons, but the sooner we figure out the game mechanics, the better, I think.

Cam

Well, I got a PM from the mod saying I was still alive but that I wasn't Jack Xavier anymore, if that helps you.

Also, I do agree with you that blue's comment about "one of his own turning on him" was interesting, and I tend to think that was probably actual newbie scum frustration. Actually, at the time I was suspicious that it might be Brian McQueso who was his scumbuddy, but that's clearly not true.

[Yosarian2]

Actually, at the time I was suspicious that it might be Brian McQueso who was his scumbuddy, but that's clearly not true.

Yeah, me too. But that the initial guess was wrong doesn't mean we should stop looking.

Cam

Fair enough. Still, while blue was perhaps was not the greatest stratigic thinker at mafia, it is still quite possible that the only purpose of that comment was to get back at Brian and/or other people on his bandwagon for getting him run up like that. The comment really did feel like a barb specfically directed at Brian, and Brian seemed to think so as well based on his later post.

[Yosarian2]

Yes, I never did vote for bluemonick. The reason is the same one I just gave last page for waiting on voting for Lordy, except it's even MORE extreme in this case; as of the time of the posting, I was currently in something like 3 or 4 games with bluemonick, and in EVERY SINGLE ONE of those games he was looking incredibly scummy and seemed to be working as hard as he possibly could to get himself lynched. So rather then vote for him right away, I kept asking him questions, and doing my best to try and find out what his alignment was; I'd rather try to figure him out instead of just lynching him everywhere if he just always looks scummy. I kept pressure on him, and it was actually after attempting to respond to several of my questions when he completly broke down and confessed in that bizzare way. After that point I of course would have voted for him, but someone hammered him before I had the chance.

(shrug) In general, I often feel like I get better responses to questions if I demand someone answers my questions when I haven't voted for him yet, but while making it clear that I might vote for that person if they don't answer or if I don't like their answers. That's a common playstyle for me, especally when trying to figure out if a suspicious looking newbie is scum or just a townie playing badly, and I think an effective one; for example, look at the first day of Himalayan Mafia, where I asked Tidus several questions and kept putting pressure on him all day without voting for him, until he finally cracked and self destructed; and again, in that game, I never actually ended up voting for him.

[Yosarian2]

Also, I should note that the key scumtell that started the bandwagon that ended up in bluemonick's death was the fact that he voted for me with a completely craplogical reason.

[Yosarian2]

And sorry about the triple post; I agree that Masterchief seemed very suspicious yesterday in relation to the blue bandwagon. That's a good point, I had kind of forgotten about that.

unvote:harry potter

vote:inhim

; I certanly don't want him lynched before he has a chance to catch up and post, and has a chance to defend himself, but I'm thinking he's probably the most suspicious person at the moment, so I might as well put my vote there at least for the moment.

[Yosarian2]

"major alarm bells"?

[Yosarian2]

Wait, Masterchief is still in this game? I was a little confused between this and Committee Mafia.

Vote Masterchief

for more or less what everyone else has said....

Well, he got replaced by InHim, but yeah.

[Yosarian2]

Anyway, remember everyone we have 4 days until the deadline, and no one has more then 3 votes. (September 7'th, I think the mod said). We have to get moving here.

I know it's a lot to catch up on, but we really need to hear from InHim soon.

[Yosarian2]

Just read all of this in the last hour or so. Let's say for all intents and purposes that I'm "caught up."

'k, so I'm in the lovely position of having to defend against actions that were not my own. I don't know why Masterchief did what he did. Nothing in my role PM tells me that I should have been thinking like Masterchief was. But, give me any more questions between now and the time I post and I'll try and give

some

sort of answer to all of the questions.

All I do know is that I have been thinking from about page 4 that Yosarian is scum.

I'll try and get to some reasons in a post later today. But, just for the record, my other scum candidates are Spamwise/mathcam, zu_Faul, and Coron.

vote: Yosarian2

Care to explain that vote? I've now got two people voting for me for absolutly no reason.

And besides, page 4? I didn't even say much on page 4, except to mention that people shouldn't talk about this game in private messages.

[Yosarian2]

Page 4 was more of a general statement for "early in the game." But I like to see the defensiveness. Thumbs up for bad cover.

Heh. My favorate fake scum tell that people, especally scum, love to abuse. Attack someone, then when they defend themselves, say they're being defense. Never fails.

On that note,

unvote

,

vote:Fritzer

. I know he loves to bandwagon, but that vote just seemed beyond the pale.

This is the first post that made my head turn toward Yos. "I know... but" seems a scummy way to defend a vote. It's also interesting to note that he was getting after DGB voters... and that I currently find zu_Faul scummy. I'm sensing a connection here.

DGB freaked out, seemed to get really upset and asked to be replaced, and then...Fritzer jumped on her bandwagon for no apparent reason. I do expect bandwagony behavior from Fritzer, but that just seemed disturbing and wrong even with that background. I always give people a certain amount of leeway based on their normal playstyles, but that dosn't mean I won't vote for them if they seem to go completly overboard. And while Fritzer bandwagon votes all the time, I can usually see why he's voting where he is, even if I don't agree with the reason. Here, it made no sense at all.

Holy crap, I think we've done something bad wagoning viper (if my supposition about his role is correct)

Huh?

Not sure why you would make a post like this...if you think viper's pro-town, and you think he's given some hint about his role (I don't see it, but whatever), then why would you draw attention to it, instead of just putting it in your notes and keeping it under your hat? Why would you give hint
s to the possible role of some other player you think is pro-town?

The wording here makes the skin crawl. It's like you're wanting other people to think viper has a pro-town power role, but using SpamWise as a meatshield.

The point was, I couldn't think of any pro-town reason for SpamWise to say that, at all, and I could think of several scummy reasons why he might do that; for example, to try and stop the bandwagon on viper, or to fish for pro-town roles. When someone does something that a pro-town person should never do, of course I'll point it out.

One problem I have about spamwise is this. He said this:

Holy crap, I think we've done something bad wagoning viper (if my supposition about his role is correct)

But then he kept his vote on viper for another 4 days, only removing it because "the bandwagon was stalled."

If I suddenly came to the conlcusion I might be bandwagoning a pro-town power role and wanted to avoid the person having to claim, I'd just quietly unvote or move my vote without making a big deal about it. Spamwise did just the opposite; made a big deal about it (perhaps to fish for viper's role?) but keeping his vote there anyway.

It's also interesting to note that while spamwise loved the viper wagon and the max wagon, the one wagon he has avoided is the mlarker wagon. He never even commented on it at all, and neither bogre or mlarker ever said anything about him, which makes me wonder if they might be scumbuddies (although I realize I'm getting pretty speculitive here).

Spamwise, what do you think about the Bogre/Mlarker wagon? Bogre, what do you think about the Spamwise wagon?

And again, from viper to mlaker.

And again, I was simply pointing out Spamwise's actions made no sense as pro-town actions. He was at least confusing, and at worst scummy. Can you think of a good pro-town reason for him to act the way he did day 1, especally that bizzare "Oh my god, we did something bad bandwagoning viper!" post?

Btw, what are the offices for?

Um, dosn't your role PM say you're in the office of Jack Irving, and tell you what is in that office?

Ooh, this sounds coachy.

What are you talking about? I would assume that everyone, both scum and town, would already know all of that, as everyone is in an office. I thought I was simply stating the obveous.

I suspect the moving of offices has to do with the moving of roles.

As such, if im correct, ibby is now a cute little townie.

Awwww.

---

Second of all, if you do know that for some non-public reason, why would you share that information with the scum?

---

I'm going to call this "The Good Scumaritan" - a role that many mafia love playing for the town. Just point point point at all the information that the scum could be gathering. You get to point the finger at other people, but also help your scummates in case you make a departure.

Again, I was pointing out that someone's actions made absolutly no sense from a pro-town point of view. I made a post attacking lordy's illogical and scummy post from every direction, showing that there was really no reason for a pro-town person to do what he did in any situation no matter what he thought. That's what good guys are supposed to do. Sheesh.

Looks like it's time for me to make a lurker list.


Lurker List:

BabyJesus: Not really a lurker, he did just post on the 1’st, but does it seem to anyone else he’s not posting as much as usual? He’s only posted twice since July 11’th, and I’d like to hear more from him.

Harry_Potter: He just posted, and he did say he’d be out of town until Augest 10’th so there’s no sense prodding him. Nonetheless, even before he said that, he only posted 4 times all game, and has said almost nothing. Once he gets back, we really need to hear a lot more from him.

MrBuddyLee: Lurker. Has not posted since July 18’th. Mod, please prod him.

PookyTheMagicalBear: Lurker. Has only posted once in the past month.

bluemonick (replacing viper0933): Has only posted once since he replaced viper, and that was about a week ago.

Meh, I just don't like this. There's bound to be better options at this point in the game beyond a lurker lynch.

Stopping and pointing out who the lurkers are, in order to get them to post and to put pressure on them, IS A PRO-TOWN ACTION. Duh. I never said "we should lynch a lurker", although I generally don't think that's a bad idea. Especally in a large game, I almost always make lurker lists, and quite a few times the way people react to being listed as lurkers help me catch scum. I wish other players would keep better track of lurkers and keep an eye on them, but they generally don't, so I have to.

Take a look at Himaliayn mafia, recently finished over in the New York forum. I was a townie, and I was on nearly every single bandwagon all game, townie or scum.

Well pin a rose on your nose. I'm not all that concerned with what you've done in the past. It holds no bearing to me, and furthermore seems like a scummy defense, especially when you yourself point out your previous game and your previous playstyle. Oh, but I am concerned with what you've done this game. And one such thing was

not

voting bluemonick. Yes, you have given reasons, but

you still didn't vote for him, a scummy scum scummer.

The point is that when a newbie is squirming and looking scummy, it's not always good to jump on the bandwagon right away, especally if there are already a lot of other people on the bandwagon; I sometimes prefer to to sit back and question them first, especally if we're in no rush. There's certanly nothing scummy about that, and I have done that in the past quite a few times as town. It's a good pro-town stratagy. In this case, I actually think that the way I did it, forcing blue to answer questions while threatening him with my vote, played a major role in his complete breakdown. My vote was not on him when he died, but yet I think I played a major part in finding scum. See how that works? And if you actually were to take a look at day 1 of Himalyn mafia, you would see that almost the exact same stratagy worked almost exactally the same way there. Don't just brush it off; if you actually want to find scum, and aren't just trying to shift attention away from yourself, go take a look.

I disagree with the lordy bandwagon. What has he done to seem scummy? There was some confusion over his so-called claim, but I read that as other people misinterpretating what he originally said.

The suspicious things about Lordy was that he first speculated in thread that someone else was a vanillia townie, which is something you should never do as town, then when she voted for him for that he flipped out and OMGUS voted for her back. Both are scum tells.

Anyway, I do think that bluemonick's post was very suspicious, and I'm considering voting him, but I'm not going to join it just yet as it's moving quite fast, I'll wait for him to try and clarify whatever it was he was trying to say in his rather bizzare last post.

STALLING.

Or perhaps I just wanted him to have a chance to actually answer instead of getting lynched? Because I wanted to find out if he was actually scum instead of just lynching him for acting just like he always acts?

While people hate to go too deeply into WIFOM, stop and think about it for a second. If either Viper or Blue was my scumpartner, I'd have thrown him under the bus day 1, no question. I'd have certanly made sure to have been on his bandwagon on the day he was lynched.

Actually, that's a very good point, ibaesha . Harry Potter's the last person who should be attacking someone else for lurking.

unvote

vote:Harry Potter

Great voting.

Yeah, I thought so. Thanks.

Actually, at the time I was suspicious that it might be Brian McQueso who was his scumbuddy, but that's clearly not true.

Yeah, me too. But that the initial guess was wrong doesn't mean we should stop looking.

Cam

Fair enough. Still, while blue was perhaps was not the greatest stratigic thinker at mafia, it is still quite possible that the only purpose of that comment was to get back at Brian and/or other people on his bandwagon for getting him run up like that. The comment really did feel like a barb specfically directed at Brian, and Brian seemed to think so as well based on his later post.

I really think you're downplaying the possibility that bluemonick

did

point toward other scum, and that now you're trying to hide this person by pushing it all on Brian.

And I think you're not actually looking for scumtells anymore, if you ever were. Because it sure dosn't sound like it, it sounds like you're assuming I'm guilty for completly BS reasons and trying to then make logical deductions from that non-fact.

Yes, I never did vote for bluemonick. The reason is the same one I just gave last page for waiting on voting for Lordy, except it's even MORE extreme in this case; as of the time of the posting, I was currently in something like 3 or 4 games with bluemonick, and in EVERY SINGLE ONE of those games he was looking incredibly scummy and seemed to be working as hard as he possibly could to get himself lynched. So rather then vote for him right away, I kept asking him questions, and doing my best to try and find out what his alignment was; I'd rather try to figure him out instead of just lynching him everywhere if he just always looks scummy. I kept pressure on him, and it was actually after attempting to respond to several of my questions when he completly broke down and confessed in that bizzare way. After that point I of course would have voted for him, but someone hammered him before I had the chance.

(shrug) In general, I often feel like I get better responses to questions if I demand someone answers my questions when I haven't voted for him yet, but while making it clear that I might vote for that person if they don't answer or if I don't like their answers. That's a common playstyle for me, especally when trying to figure out if a suspicious looking newbie is scum or just a townie playing badly, and I think an effective one; for example, look at the first day of Himalayan Mafia, where I asked Tidus several questions and kept putting pressure on him all day without voting for him, until he finally cracked and self destructed; and again, in that game, I never actually ended up voting for him.

Heh. Good, logical response.

My play so far this game has been good, solid, pro-town play, including not jumping on the blue bandwagon right away without trying to queston him farther first. Yes, blue turned out to be scum in this game. Dispite that, I still think I made all the right plays based on what I knew at the time.

Also, I should note that the key scumtell that started the bandwagon that ended up in bluemonick's death was the fact that he voted for me with a completely craplogical reason.

What, because bluemonick voted you makes you innocent?

Not at all what I said, and I think you knew it.

Now that we know Brian was town and Blue was scum, we have a very good idea of what happened yesterday, based on what Brian said he was trying to do and what Blue did. Brian set a trap, attacking me for very weak reasons, hoping scum would jump onto the bandwagon. The newbie scum Blue fell for it, following Brian in voting for me, using complete and utter crap logic. The town lynched Blue.

One thing about that kind of trap, is that

it can only work if I'm not in Blue's scum group[/b]. The primary scum tell that Blue committed for was that he was trying way to hard to attack me and to get me lynched with absolutly no good reason.

You seem to think Blue is such a bad and transparent player that he would actually say "hey, by scum buddy is voting for me" and you would believe it. A complete newbie fell into a trap, follows an experenced player onto a bandwagon, using total crap logic, and then completly folds when attacked on it to the extent that he actually confessing being scum. Now, do you seriously expect any of us to actually believe that that that newbie was just trying some elaborate ploy there to try to distance himself from me?

The reason crap logic is a scum tell is because scum use it to defend themselves or each other, or to attack townies.

Anyway, nice attempt to try to divert the town by attacking me instead of defending yourself. How about you actually go back and respond to some of the points TSS made against your predecessor, masterchief?

[Yosarian2]

Anyway, nice attempt to try to divert the town by attacking me instead of defending yourself.

Did you really just type that?

Um, yes. When I voted for you, I said I wanted to give you a chance to defend yourself before you were lynched. You have completly refused to do this, at all, instead launching an incredibly detailed point-by-point attack on me. Fine; whatever, attack me if you want, that's how the game is played. But I still want to hear you defend some of the key points he made about MasterChief's behavior yesterday.

Let me put it this way...yesterday, while not voting for him, I kept the pressure on blue. I demanded over and over again that he start making sense, that he answered questions, and did my best to keep the focus on him. He eventually completly broke down and actually confessed to being scum, and was prompty lynched, without my vote only because I was not online at that moment.

Meanwhile, your predecessor, MasterChief, did none of that. What he did do was vote blue, but as he did so he said the reason he was voting Blue was because he "didn't want to look like he was protecting him". He never actually made a single argument against Blue, but clearly wanted to be on Blue's bandwagon so as to not look like he was his scumbuddy.

If you were reading this game, which of those two people seems more suspicious to you?

How about you actually go back and respond to some of the points TSS made against your predecessor, masterchief?

Really... this just happened? Of course, I should have known this would be the response - trying to make me look all pushy, when I have no choice but to come in and push. Yes, I said I'd try and answer questions, but understand that I am

not

Masterchief (thank goodness), and so I can not definitively give any good reasons behind judgment calls.

Also... notice the wording. "nice attempt" ... He's trying to manipulate you guys!

And... "the town"? Not "us"?[/quote]

Well, yes. It is a nice attempt to get the focus off you. It might even work. This attack on me is completly irrelevent to the reason people are voting for you. That dosn't really prove you're scum, of course, as a good guy who's worried he might get lynched might also to try to shift the focus away from himself, but you certanly haven't given me any reasons to re-think my reasons for being suspicious of you.

And yes, if you want to play semantic games, you are trying to shift "the town's" attention away from the actions of your predecessor. Of course you attacking me is not going to shift my attention away from you, and of course that wasn't your goal. So I wouldn't say you were trying to shift "our" attention, I would say you were trying to shift the attention of the group as a whole; IE, the town.

[Yosarian2]

My play so far this game has been ... not jumping on the blue bandwagon right away without trying to queston him farther first.

The thing is, with the Lordy bandwagon, you only

looked

like you were doing that, you weren't actually doing it. You made a couple of posts calling him scummy without voting, then a few people voted

but Lordy hadn't responded yet

, and then you dropped the vote on. Nor did the speed of the bandwagon trouble you when you did. So what changed?

Well, one big difference was that the primary scum tell Blue did, to follow an experenced player onto a bad bandwagon with bad reasoning, was one that I see a newbie townie doing almost as easily as a newbie scum, so I wanted to get a better read on him before I voted. The major scum tell Lordy did, which was to suddenly declare someone to be a vanillia townie under odd circumstances, was something I was having more trouble picturing a good guy doing. So, while questioning blue and trying to find out more about him, I keep my vote on Lordy until I got a better idea of exactally where blue stood.

You were also on the bluemonick wagon, jumping on there to make yourself look less scummy when he came up protown.

Whaa...?[/quote]

Heh...should clearly have been "to make yourself look less scummy when he came up scum".

[Yosarian2]

One thing about that kind of trap, is that

it can only work if I'm not in Blue's scum group

. The primary scum tell that Blue committed for was that he was trying way to hard to attack me and to get me lynched with absolutly no good reason.

tags fixed

Actually, done properly, this can be a very effective scum gambit. Wait for someone to make a poorly reasoned argument against a scum buddy. Reiterate the argument in a way that makes the flaw in the argument a bit more apparent. Wait for someone to notice and point out the flaw. Remove vote from scum buddy and apologize for not seeing the flaw in the original argument. Wait for town to turn against the maker of the original argument. Instead of just focusing attention on someone outside the group, you've now both distanced yourself from your scum buddy

and

focused attention on someone outside the group. It's riskier, certainly, but with a much higher degree of reward.

Of course, whatever bluemonick was trying to do, it clearly wasn't done properly.

Well, I suppose that would be a possibility if it was an experenced player. Does Blue really look like the kind of player who would try something quite that complex?

Here, take a look at the post in question.

In every other game I've played with Yosarian, I've tended to agree with his logic and can understand a lot of the things he does.

I tend to agree, he's seems less of an "investagator" in this particular game and more like 'laying back'.

Im feel comfortable:

Unvote, Vote: Yosarian2

Does that really look like he was "trying to show the flaw in Brian's argument"? Or does it look more like he was just tagging along hoping for a bandwagon on me?

[Yosarian2]

Still, you voted Lordy not when you noted the tell and not when his reponse made a vote on those grounds warranted, but in between.

(reads back)

Ok, this was the timeline.

First, Lordy made the initial scummy post. I questioned him on it.

Then, he responded with a post (post 540) that failed to answer my main concerns, and OMGUS voted Ibby.

Actually, no I messed up the offices. Im thinking of the fact that offices determine your role based on my role pm.

And who was in ibby's office resterday? Spamwise.

Vote: ibby

I was merely voicing my theory, and you guys had a nice jump, so
MajorHandOfSuspision: Spamwise.

My first reaction to post 540 was that he hadn't responded to or even seemed to necessarally understand the main point I rased against him, so I repeated it.

Actually, no I messed up the offices. Im thinking of the fact that offices determine your role based on my role pm.

And who was in ibby's office resterday? Spamwise.

Vote: ibby

I was merely voicing my theory, and you guys had a nice jump, so
MajorHandOfSuspision: Spamwise.

Um, you do understand why it's suspicious that you tried to out a vanillia townie, no matter if your reasoning was correct or not, right?

A little later that day, MOS questioned the reasoning of his vote on Ibby, which I hadn't really paid much attention to when I first responded to Lordy's post, but he was right; there was no good reason for that vote on her he made, and combined with the earlier issues I'd had with him that seemed more then enough reason for a vote.

Yeah.

vote:Lordy

"I think X is just a vanillia townie" is suspicious enough; then randomally OMGUS voting that same person (who he just said he thought was a townie?) just pushed it over the edge for me.

[Yosarian2]

There were also a lot of people accusing Spamwise of general badness, and I think everyone would benefit from people's analysis of Spamwise/mathcam's actions as well.

Spamwise made at least a few posts that seemed very scummy to me. Since he replaced spamwise, Mathcam has seemed reasonable and has given off a bit of a pro-town vibe. Of course, he's a good player, and I'm sure he's quite capable of being resonable and giving off a pro-town vibe while scum.

(shrug)

At the moment, I am still slightly more suspicious then average of him, (basically, fairly significant scumtells from spamwise + reasonable and somewhat pro-town looking posts from mathcam=slightly scummy). However, at the moment I'm willing to give him some rope at the moment and take kind of a wait-and-see attitude with mathcam, especally as masterchief/inhim looks more suspicious to me, and there are others that look at least as suspicious as mathcam to me and are also lurking.

I'll take a look and give my impression of all the players on your list later, whenver I have time to do that kind of re-reading; probably this weekend sometime.

[Yosarian2]

distract from what? My swapping of roles question? Not at all. For instance, if it was scum DOING the swapping, then there is a high likelihood they would be swapping around one of their guys to try and find a seer-type office, right? Or is there some mechanic of this game I didn;t read closely enough?

No, we haven't established who is doing the role swapping, or who blew up my office yet for that matter.

[Yosarian2]

I do think it's possible. Why wouldn't it be? He can either convince me he's town or not. There's plenty of things I have to discuss with him, that might shed some light for me about his alignment. If he is town and we can work together to catch scum, that's definately a strength for the town. Yes, he could also fool me into believing he is town when he's not, but I doubt his ability to do this as well as some other people.

What doesn't ring true to you? Please explain your line of thinking.

I'm having trouble picturing him saying something to you in a PM that could convince you he was innocent that he couldn't/wouldn't say in the thread. The only reason to not say something in the thread would be if you had some kind of role-based information or some kind of hunch about who a power role was or something like that, but as you don't know his alignment and he dosn't know yours, I don't imagine either of you would want to say anything like that in a PM either.

[Yosarian2]

I've been suspicious about Harry Potter ever since that BJ vote. He's #2 on my list of suspicion right now.

[Yosarian2]

Ok, I'll make comments about the people on MBL's list:

MBL: Interesting to see you ask for comments on

yourself

. Well, we certanly need to hear more from you, especally more concrete arguments against other people; you have made almost no actual attacks this game. I'll also mention that something about the phrase "not to divert from the BJ wagon, but..." just sounds suspicious to me. You've never even said anything about BJ, so why are you especally worried about whether or not we get diverted from the BJ wagon?

Harry Potter: Minimal contrabutions, combined with iffy, follower-y, scummy looking accusations.


Max:Severe lurker. Hasn't posted since Aug. 14. His attacks against blue yesterday make me think he's more likely pro-town then not, but he still needs to be prodded or possibly replaced.

mmod:Lurker. I know he mentioned he was going back to collage and wouldn't have a lot of time, but that was, what, 10 days ago? We need to hear something from him soon.

BJ: Eh. Now that he's posting more, I don't really have a bad feeling about him. I also don't really see how his day 1 voting record is especally scummy, although we might have a better idea once we find out the alignment of some other the other people he voted like Spamwise.

Pooky: Needs to post more.

Coron: Severe lurker. Has not posted since July. It's funny he voted someone early in the game for not posting enough content.

Colonel Kurtz: Lurker. Not many contrabutions. Did vote for blue.

zu_Faul: Needs to post much more content.

[Yosarian2]

mathcam's attempt to deflect the Harry Potter bandwagon is noted.

He did ask at least one good question, though. Why did you claim not only for yourself but also for ibaesha, especally when that claim was not going to clear you:?

[Yosarian2]

Fair enough. Why did you name your "mason partner", though? You could have claimed your role without saying who it was you could talk with.

That's really the only thing I don't get. Like I said, I don't really have a problem with your voting record, but if I were in your position, I might have claimed, but I wouldn't have let the scum, the room switchers, and whoever blew up my office know that ibaesha dosn't have a power role, unless she had wanted to claim herself.

[Yosarian2]

More productively...Could someone not voting for BJ (other than BJ, of course) please explain why?

Well, that's kind of a wierd question. So, why should we lynch BJ today, exactally? The role-claim thing was wierd, and I think he made a mistake naming his "mason partner", but otherwise I would expect most people with any kind of night ability at all to claim before being lynched this game; it might help you not get lynched, and even if not it might be useful for other reasons to claim before being lynched, like if at least some of those room switchers are pro-town.

I don't really think the role-claiming stuff is enough reason to lynch him. What other reasons do you think there are to lynch him?

[Yosarian2]

You're sure Baby jesus is scum because he said he's pro-town? What?

Really not buying this.

unvote

vote:thecesspit

[Yosarian2]

Slightly more suspicious of mathcam due to recent events.

What recent events?

That for some reason my office changes nightly? Or because BJ got himself lynched?

Cam

Bj hardly "got himself lynched". He just played the way he always plays; I've seen him make the exact same "My pm says I'm pro-town" comment in other games, for example.

BJ was lynched partly because some people read him wrong and attacked him based on his normal playstyle, and probably because some scum saw a chance to lynch him. I'm not sure which one you are, although one comment you made that bothers me was this:

But of course, this discussion is ridiculous. I'm certainly not going to convince BJ to admit his own guilt. More productively...Could someone not voting for BJ (other than BJ, of course) please explain why?

You were basically demanding that anyone not voting BJ either vote for him, or defend him (by "explaining why they weren't voting for him"). I'm sure you knew that most good guys would not stick their neck out to defend someone who looked likely to get lynched in the future, and this just seemed like a way to get people who weren't sure about him to either vote for him or take the risk of defending him.

And, in any case, I don't like the way you try to put the full responsibility of him being lynched back on him, so you don't have to take any responsibility for it.

[Yosarian2]

Just because you often lurk, coron, dosn't mean there's anything wrong with putting some lurker pressure on you this game.

[Yosarian2]

Yos2: Yes, I've skimmed though some of his other games. But this game is different, the pm doesn't say.

Yes, I know. But it's just one of his stock phrases he loves to throw around; did you really think he went back and checked his PM before saying "yup, my PM says I'm town"?

[Yosarian2]

Just as a note; why do people keep wondering who "the" office switcher? There have been several night when two people had their offices moved, and I had been thinking there were at least two office switchers.

Anyway, I'm certanly interested about what information you claim to have, ibaesha, and it might help me get a better idea about mathcam, but of course you're the only one with enough information to know if it's worth sharing it or not.

[Yosarian2]

(What happened to my other post?)

Huh...good point, Uraj. I guess that means that the role probably works like "Move person A into B's office, and then move person B into office C".

[Yosarian2]

There are five or six scum left, most likely. It's pretty amazing that we have like squat for night results. It's even more amazing that we're basically at panic time and yet you're all acting like this is a tea party.

Here's the discussion today, summarized:

Fuldu wonders what's in MBL's office
Coron throws out three suspicions with no evidence
MoS wonders what's in jack quinn's office
Ibby expresses suspicion of mathcam
spectrumvoid asks about lurker replacement
cam: defensive post
yos: explains bj's lynch, mild attack on cam re: bj
mathcam: 100% defensive response
spectrum: brief bj comment
MoS: back to office talk
Uraj: content post pointing at Coron
fuldu: more office speculation
coron: defends his indefensible record this game
yos: more on BJ
ibby: more on BJ, more suspicion of cam
MoS says "Interesting"
cesspit: office speculation
ibby: defensive post, reiterates cam suspicions
uraj: office talk
yos: office talk
armlx: suspicious of ibby

Lurking today:
HarryPotter
Max
mmod
Pooky

The lurkers are useless--they should be replaced immediately. cam, Mos and cesspit are not trying to find scum at all--they are probably scum. Everyone else just isn't trying. And I'd rather not lose, so if you're town, kick it up a notch please.

Well, I'm suspicious of Cam for what happened yesterday, Ibby is suspicious of Cam for some reason she won't share but has something to do with her old role, which may or may not somehow justify Cam's attacks on BJ, and armlx is suspicious of Ibby because of that same role.

I'm starting to think one of them is just going to have to break down and tell us what the hell's in that office, or we're never going to get anywhere.

[Yosarian2]

I'm getting more and more suspicious of Yos, but I'm not sure I can put a finger on why. Until I can figure out why,

FOS: Yos.

Cam

Wouldn't have anything to do with the fact that I'm getting more and more suspicious of you, would it?

BJ said he had no other facet to his role beyond the ability to talk to me at night. This was untrue because he could also talk to InHim.

Ah. Well, what would you expect him to say, though? He had just had multiple people tell him that he shouldn't have outed your role. And I just assumed he was saying that there was no more to his role then his night-talking ability, which was apparently true.

[Yosarian2]

So...is this the post where you think BJ "lied", Ibby?

WTF are you talking about? I only HAVE one facet to my role. There's nothing else to my role other then what I have said. Are you on crack or something? Do some people here have roles independent of their office? If so, I did not get one.

All he said was that the only aspect of his role was the "mason" part, that he didn't have any other facet of his role. He never said, or implied, that you were his only mason partner. I certanly don't think he ever lied.

[Yosarian2]

Coron, Spamwise/mathcam has been moved twice.

Blackberry, Jack Wilkinson (Pro-Town), killed Night 1
ibaesha reassigned to Jack Johnson's office
SpamWise reassigned to Jack Quinn's office
Yosarian2, occupying Jack Xavier's office, loses office
Jack Gallagher's office opened

It is now Day 2. With 23 alive, it will take

12 to lynch

.

zu_Faul(replacing Someone, who replaced DrippingGoofball), killed Night 3 (Jack Usher, Pro-town)
inHimshallibe (replacing Masterchief), killed Night 3 (Jack Ryan, Pro-town)
the silent speaker, killed Night 3 (Jack Fox, formerly Jack Nelson, Serial Killer)
armlx reassigned to the office of Jack Quinn
mathcam reassigned to the office of Jack Kay
Office of Jack Bennett opened

It is now Day 4. With 15 alive, it will take

8 to lynch

.

So now spamwise/mathcam, Ibby, and Armlx have all been in the office of Jack Quinn, and so all should all know everything about the mason role in that office.

[Yosarian2]

Ok...lot of stuff going on now, which is a good thing. I'll try to comment on as many points as I can; if there's any other points people want me to specifically comment on, I'll be glad to do so.

The next day, no one talked about the strange goings on at the end of yesterday. I imagine it had been the hot topic amongst scum the night before:

(a)"Wow, he tried to set up pro-town Ibby, at least he went out half smart."
or
(b)"Wow, he tried to take you out, Ibbs. What a complete jackass."

So...you think blue's "one of my scum partners turned on me" comment was directed at Ibby? Interesting theory. I don't really think that makes a lot of sense, though, as I can't imagine him being angry enough to turn on his scumbuddy voting him if they were scum partners and he had just been trying to distance himself from her. Either the comment by blue was an attempt to confuse the town, or else if he really was that mad at his scum-buddy for turning on him, then he probably did not understand the idea of scum distancing tactics at all.

MoS has just demonstrated that he actually reread the thread. In light of everyone else's apathy, I choose to see that as a pro-town move on his part. Nice work mang.

Particularly in light of the above quote, but more generally because MrBuddyLee has spent the entire game complaining about lurkers, player apathy, and the incoherence of everyone else's arguments without bothering to offer any real substance of his own, I'm increasingly convinced that he's scum.

vote: MrBuddyLee

I agree with MoS's comments on TheCesspit, who I was uncomfortable with back on Day One, but subsequently began to trust again. I may consider shifting my vote over there, but for now would prefer this.

Finally, I'm still waiting to hear from LML. Not so much because I'm concerned that he's lurking and more because he usually provides a valuable perspective.

I think MrBuddyLee is actually acting very pro-town right now. He's right that the game isn't heading in a good direction (I must be in too many games right now, I hadn't really noticed how much trouble the town was in until he pointed it out), and he then tried to start a fire under the town and get the town moving in a better way. Not the way I would see a scum acting at this point, especally a scum under next to no pressure.

I also think he had some very good points about Max/LML

And there's this gem, just about the only question Max asked anyone, smashed in between flippant remarks.

Yos Have you lost your role now your room is gone

I'm saying did your role change when you moved room

Is there any specific reason you think it'd help if I say what my role is at the moment?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Max shows an unusual curiosity here--as if he had been the bomber or, less likely, a partner of Yos's who knew what his role was.

Worse, Yos is in the process of grilling lordy for fishing (Yos grilled Spamwise for fishing earlier as well) yet Yos treats Max here like a country gentleman despite the utter blatant nature of Max's fishing attempt.

Well, I would expect every person in the game was curious about what happened to my role after the mod said in game that my office was blown up. I know I would have been, if it had happened to someone else. So I wasn't especally bothered by Max, and later Mathcam, asking me about it; I didn't think it was a good idea to answer, but the question didn't bother me.

There is a good point there though, though; I suppose that that kind of curiosity is unusual for max, and it is possible that he (or, perhaps Mathcam, although that seems less likely) was the bomber or was in a scum group with the bomber and was trying to find out how effective the role was.

Ok if that's what you believe, you guys Lynch me already.

What BLUE Monick says he wants to be lynched

seems scummy

I sense a claim

we're 3 from lynch does bluemonick realise that

vote: bluemonick

This is not typical Max behavior. Max looks for any excuse to hop aboard, not wait three days and three post opportunities before giving bm what he begged for. This is "Max is avoiding lynching his scumpartner" behavior.

I tend to think Loudmouth Lee(Max) is scum. Additionally, the Paragon of Mafia Hunters would have stepped up to the challenge by now.

And this is an even better point against him. Looking back, I just realized that the only post LML made was

I'm here. Let me thumb through the pages. Expect my first post of content tomorrow or wednesday.

And that more then two weeks ago.

...and Yosarian has been questioning me in a manner that implies either: he is suspicious of me or he is trying to cast doubt on my actions.

Actually, neither. In general, you're not very high on my suspicious list, although that dosn't mean I'm not interested in poking you for reactions of course. My main goal of trying to clarify all of that stuff about "BJ lying", though, was different; if BJ did, in fact, lie about his role, then mathcam would have known that, and then that would have competly justified mathcam's suspicious behavior yesterday involving the BJ wagon. However, if that single post I quoted was the only thing you are speaking of when you say that BJ "lied" about his role, then I'm feeling pretty good about the mathcam bandwagon.

vote:loudmouthlee

At the very least, we should put some pressure there until he starts posting, and Mr Buddy Lee is right that Max looked rather scummy

fos:mathcam

[Yosarian2]

Either Yos isn't reading the game, or he's trying to look helpful while accomplishing nothing. The host just said LML will either post this weekend or be replaced. That has to be the worst vote I've seen cast this game.

(shrug) I think he's looking very suspicious right now, so I'm voting for him. I never said we should hammer him before he shows up or gets replaced, if he or his replacement has a defense or a claim or some thoughts about the game I'd like to hear it, but I'm certanly not going to

avoid

voting someone just beacuse they're lurking; that'd just be dumb.

I also don't like MBL's behavior as he seems to be posting a lot of "here is what so-and-so said/did" The result is that he ups his post count without actually saying anything. I think he's adding himself to his own lurker list in the hopes to look townie. *shrug* Maybe I'm just being paranoid, but my vote could go either place right now.

Without actually saying anything? He's pointed out the luirkers, and has attacked several people. I know he's wrong about some of his suspicions; he's certanly wrong about me, and I don't really see why he's suspicious of Ibby, but nonethless he could hardly be accused of not actually saying anything.

[Yosarian2]

I know he's wrong about some of his suspicions; he's certanly wrong about me

You know, eh? Which other suspicions do you KNOW I'm wrong about, and why? I was under the assumption that you're in a powerless office.

I suppose it would have been more precise to say "I know that not all of his suspicious are correct because he's wrong about me". Still, you knew what I meant, didn't you? It should have been clear the intent of that post was to defend you, to say that even though not all of your suspicions are correct I think your actions today have been generally pro-town.

[Yosarian2]

I took the words literally. You're generally a person who chooses the words he means to choose.

Well, apparently I don't choose my words carefully enough, if they're open to that kind of misunderstanding.

(shrug)

Hm. Any chance Yosarian had a 1-shot kill that, by using it, blew up his office?

Cam

No.

You know what, let me just answer your questions. Dispite me refusing to directly answer the question, I think it's pretty clear to everyone that I'm basically a townie now anyway, I think, so I guess there's no harm in clarifying.

I was origionally Jack Xavier. I was basically a vanillia townie, as (to paraphrase) the office was empty of things other the office furnature.

Now, after my office was bombed, I am a townie of indeterminate name.

So that's why I couldn't answer your questions before without claiming, mathcam; I don't have any firsthand knowlege of what would happen if an office that contained a power role got bombed; I would guess that the equipment in the office that gives the office holder cop powers or vig powers or whatever would probably get destroyed, but I don't really know.

[Yosarian2]

the "Huh? What did I do?" was the equivalent of my third question, which you obviously didn't understand, hence why I restated it in a later post.

1. I for one have never seen a single scum group in a game this large, and it's certainly not

common

.

Huh? You've never seen it?

Look at Stephen King mafia; just one scum group and a SK. Or Kingmaker I. Or several other games.

I'm sure you've seen it before. It's not that uncomon.

[Yosarian2]

YOSARIAN

I was origionally Jack Xavier. I was basically a vanillia townie, as (to paraphrase) the office was empty of things other the office furnature.

Now, after my office was bombed, I am a townie of indeterminate name.

If someone with an item dies, does that item go to somewhere else, or is it just lost?

Plz explain how you knew about items if you didn't have one.

It's clear, from the mod's discription of the game, from the first mod post, and from my own PM, that your abilities are based on the items in your office.

[Yosarian2]

It's clear, from the mod's discription of the game, from the first mod post, and from my own PM, that your abilities are based on the items in your office.

Please quote me if I'm wrong, but...

(While your company in known for the zany stuff sent to Wile E. Coyote, you actually make most of your revenue selling useful and less exciting items.)

This is the only time Yaw mentions items, and they aren't items in offices, they are products being sold.

Your name is Jack. As a good Jack, you have the inherent ability to perform any task, as long as you have the tools to do so. You work in the offices of ACME Industries, a place with many marvellous inventions...so when killers infiltrate the office you will have to use the tools you have to drive them out.

There appears to be no correlation between roles and items within the office. Tools could mean any number of things.

That leaves your own PM, which I'm not privy to. I still fail to see how you come up with items for everyone when you don't seem to have any.

(shrug) My PM said that my office was empty other then a chair and a desk, and so I had no night abilies. It seemed pretty clear to me from that that some people did have things in their office that gave them night abilites. Actually, as should be clear by that post, I had a pretty fuzzy idea of exactally how that worked at that early point in the game.

[Yosarian2]

Good points, MOS.

unvote:savethedragons

vote:thecesspit

[Yosarian2]

Requesting a deadline isn't an especally pro-town act, MOS, but I agree with you about the lurking, it's getting out of control.

[Yosarian2]

fos:armlx

He lurks all game, contribute next to nothing for months, and then attack MOS as soon as he calls out lurkers?

[Yosarian2]

Jeez, I don't believe you're actually taking that stupid crap about items as a serious attack against me.

The queau thread:

Your name is Jack. As a good Jack, you have the inherent ability to perform any task, as long as you have the tools to do so. You work in the offices of ACME Industries, a place with many marvellous inventions...so when killers infiltrate the office you will have to use the tools you have to drive them out.

The first post:

Welcome to ACME Industries, where 26 work at creating inventions for the world. (While your company in known for the zany stuff sent to Wile E. Coyote, you actually make most of your revenue selling useful and less exciting items.) All of you are Jacks of all trades, skilled in performing any task as long as you have the equipment available. Unfortunately, evil elements are trying to take over the company, and it will take your unique skills to drive them off.

And my PM said that my office was empty, therefore I had no abilities.

If anyone in the game didn't know that there were things in each office that gave different people different roles, then they simply weren't paying attention.

[Yosarian2]

Yosarian2 - A ton of posts, but a ton of fluff and speculative stuff about offices. His only two major suspicions today have been Max and Cesspit. August 6th, August 24th, September 9th observed that Pooky was lurking but has never followed up on it an ounce. VERY unlike Yos, who is normally intolerant of lurkers from what I've seen. He likes to know people's alignments, and his indifference to Pooky and mmod bothers me. If Yos were town, I'd expect him to be much more pissed off about the state of this game.

I agree that I have not been lurkerhunting as much as usual. Mostly because I myself havn't been quite as good with keeping up with games lately as I usually am, which makes it harder for me to attack other people for lurking.

That being said, I am becoming more suspicious of Pooky. Looking back, I really don't like the last post he made before he started lurking (the one where he defended himself by claiming to be using a stratagy he learned from watching House), and I don't like this post at all.

Well MBL, all u've really done is jump up and down and moan loudly about how pissed you'd be if I was town and contributed as I have, about how I've provided no defense, about how I must be scum.

Why not just answer my questions?

You realize you're not actually asking me anything,

It's like you'd love me to post yet you've made no real request that I can see.

If you're REALLY interested in having me make posts and contribute, you would've actually ASKED me directly what you wanted me to contribute.

Like who I think should be lynched, who I think is innocent, and all sorts of different things you could ask of me to contribute.

Instead all you've done is bitch in an increasingly hysterical manner about how I've contributed nada yada yada yada.

What is your purpose here? To make me post? To make me contribute? If that were so you would have asked questions of me surely? Questions that you would want answered?

But instead all you've done is try to stir up public outrage at what I've done so far this game.

What you have NOT done is address the issue of lurkage, whether you kill me or not, those people who are lurking will continue to lurk and you still will not get any closer to getting actual relevant information on this game.

I've played as scum against lurkers before, it's easy to try to turn a town on the lurker because you need no actual evidence against them, they don't need to do anything scummy, their existence is scummy because there is no information to point either way.

In Werewolves Mafia 38 I got the town to lynch 2 lurkers back to back on the last couple of days based on no guilt whatsoever, I just got them so pissed at the lurkers that they ended up lynching those lurkers tho there was no evidence they were scum at all.

MBL's objective here is not to get rid of the lurking in this game, if that was his goal he'd have actual QUESTIONS for the lurkers to answer, he'd be ASKING them things. Instead all he's said is these people are suspicious for lurking, Pooky should be lynched cuz he's a lurker.

Does lynching all lurkers get rid of lurkers? Yes, it also throws away any chance you have for winning the bloody game since you're operating through with no information. MBL's goal seems to be to throw away lynches based on lurking.

When you examine a player's play, there is one thing that you must understand, the player's

intention

. Why is he playing this way? What is he hoping to accomplish.

MBL's intention is to lynch me, it is not to make me talk, I've given him plenty of time and not once has he actually asked me directly anything that he wants to know from me(i.e. who do i think is suspicious, who do i think is scum, who do i think is innocent, what do you think of player XXX)(this is of course barring that one sarcastic remark he made in response to my House reference which was made after quite some time spent actually trying to get me lynched and I can't really see as a geniune question, it read more like an asasine sarcastic remark)

The intention to lynch a lurker rather than make a lurker talk is more scum in my experience here than protown.

Now what are MY intentions this game? Well first look at what I've done and look at my reputation which surely precedes me. Do you believe I intended to lurk my way through this game as scum and not be called on it?(Such an intention would of course correspond with an expectation of getting away with said act, do you believe I EXPECT to get away with such an act)

I propose to you that I could not possibly expect to get away with such blatant lurking and especially not to somehow sprinkle fairy dust into your eyes and make you forget my existence while two stepping my way to a victory to the tune of a jig.

My intention is twofold, find out who attacks me for lurking(and on the flipside who doesn't attack me for lurking who I would expect to attack me for lurking)

and also to give ample oppurtunity for those who propose my lynch based on lurkage to actually

question

me. This is a separation effect because it separates those who hunt lurkers because they are easy to lynch from those who pressure lurkers to get them to stop lurking.

The player who actually has questions for the lurker to answer and give him no excuse to avoid contributing by making it clear what is expected is typically protown.

The player who appeals to outrage and anger as excuses to lynch a player with no real sense of their guilt, is typically scum.

MLB was poking at Pooky for lurking, and Pooky responds with a long, emotional, rant that really has very little to do with the game. Pooky gives wierd sideways arguments like "if he really wanted me to stop lurking he'd ask me questions". Well, either that, or he'd just keep pointing out you were lurking and that it's scummy, as that's a good way to get the lurkers to post.

And the whole claim that he was lurking just to see who would attack him for lurking and who wouldn't is just an absolutly terrible claim. The "I was acting scummy because I wanted to see who attacked me for being scummy" is always a terrible, terrible defense; if you do something scummy, like lurk, of course people will attack you. "Do you believe I intended to lurk my way through this game as scum and not be called on it?" is even worse. You can't do something suspicious and then try to WIFOM your way out of it by basically saying "if I was scum I wouldn't really be this scummy, would I?"

Besides, to quote a movie, I've heard this speach before. Last time I saw Pooky use this kind of defense, he was scum.

I still wouldn't mind lynching Cesspit, but eh, I can never resist doing this.

unvote:the cesspit

vote:Pooky

[Yosarian2]

You're quite silly Yosarian, when did I lurk as scum and then come back and wifom the town? I'd love a link

Heh...did you just try to use a wifom defense to defend yourself from being accused of using a WIFOM defense?

Anyway, no, that's no what I said. I said the style of your defense, the type of post you used in your defense, reminds me of the type of the defences you've used while scum in the past.

As to your attacks on my stance on the blue wagon, we've been through this over and over again, although you vanished for months so you might have missed it. Blue was lynched for his scummy, craplogical attack against me. And while I didn't vote for him, I put a great deal of pressure on him though repeated questions and was a major factor in his breakdown that got him lynched. That post you quote is actually a good example of me putting pressure on him, trying to force him to start answering questions and responding to accusations. I wanted to know if he was scum or just a scummy looking newbie, and I knew that if I could force him to actually start answering questions and such I'd be able to figure it out. He only "imploded" AFTER I spent several posts demaning that he answer questions and such.

Anyway, you've managed to commit almost ever scum tell in the book, and I'm becoming more and more happy with my vote on you.

You've admitted to intentionally lurking.

You then implied your lurking was some kind of "trap" to see who would attack you, which is a complete logical fallacy as attacking lurkers is a pro-town action.

After spending the whole game attacking almost no one and making next to no visable effort to find scum, you suddenly attack two people, me and MBL, only right after both of us attacked you; that makes me think thay you're not really looking for scum at all, as the only time you seem to attack people is when you want to try and discredit someone attacking you.

You've also tried to justify your months of lurking by implying that you were just waiting to see if MBL was going to ask you any questions, which is simply absurd, especally as Ibby WAS asking you those exact questions.

You're tried to take advantage of emotions relating to other games, using false analogies to do so.

And you tried to WIFOM your way out of it with multiple attempts at a "if I was really scum, I wouldn't do something THIS scummy, would I?" style defense.

Does anyone actually think Pooky's likely to be pro-town at this point?

[Yosarian2]

The Jack Quinn office is not a vig office. It's a no ability office. There is a desk and a chair, nothing else.

Just in case there was any question about the issue, that is the correct discription of the townie office.

[Yosarian2]

That's some pretty frantic hand-waving Pooky's doing over there, isn't it.

[Yosarian2]

Ah, forgot about this game after the crash.

I do remember that, in a deleated post, I did a

unvote:pooky

vote:oberon

; Pooky was starting to look a bit more pro-town to me, so I moved my vote back to the cesspit's replacement.

[Yosarian2]

Yosa is so scum.

If I remember correctly, the reason I unvoted you was that something about way you defended Mr Buddy Lee in a lost post didn't strike me as pookyscumish.

[Yosarian2]

What does your suspicion of me have to do with my suspicion of you?

Well, there's clearly no other reason any rational person would ever suspect me of anything. But Yos unvoting Pooky? That's just bizzare.

[Yosarian2]

"Slinger of mud and overall negitive force"? You mean, he's the one in the game who's actually attacking people and therefore looking for scum?

unvote

vote:uraj45

[Yosarian2]

I'm here.

First of all,

unvote:Uraj

. I still think his attacks on MBL look a little suspicious, but his "mudslinging" comments dosn't look as bad to me now that he's explained what he means more.

mathcam = gettin' bad vibes on this one, dudes.

You know what, I've felt the same way for most of the game. There's just something that seems...wrong there, isn't there?

vote:mathcam

I also agree that Oberon and the lurkers should be on the "kill" list. Fuldu, I'm not so sure of.

[Yosarian2]

"his play slows the pace of the game"? As opposed to, not posting?

[Yosarian2]

Hey, the forum's back up. Anyone remember how to play mafia?

[Yosarian2]

Yes, I remember how to play mafia. Right now we lynch mathcam.

Agreed.

[Yosarian2]

I see almost everyone has ignored my 2nd last post. I know it doesn't mean much, but doesn't it mean something?

It dosn't really mean much at this point, unfortunatly. We've only had one dead scum, so there's probably at least 3-4 more of them left. Which means that if you did block a mafia member one of those nights, the odds are something like 3 to 1 that you wouldn't stop the kill anyway. This is even more true in Mathcam's case, as the mafia usually isn't going to have someone do the kill who's both high-profile and under some suspicion, like Mathcam was, as those are the kinds of people who are most likely to get blocked or tracked. So I don't really think that's any kind of significant evidence in Mathcam's favor.

[Yosarian2]

So...you blocked spamwise on night 1, the night there was a missing kill?

[Yosarian2]

Hah. Knew he was scum.

[Yosarian2]

Not if the role dies with me...

But it wouldn't. The roleswitcher office would still be there, right? And MMOD should be able to put someone else into it, I would think.

Just to get all the details out:

Mathcam/uraj: can you confirm that there was some roleswitching going on you didn't have anything to do with? Does MMOD's claim fit?

At the moment, I mostly believe mathcam's claim, but I don't think it makes him any less scummy.

[Yosarian2]

Nope, armlx wasn't the role-swapper. Voting someone (Colonel Kurtz) for voting for someone (lordy) that you (armlx) believe has claimed your own role isn't credible.

Sure it is, if Armlx knew there were two role-swappers. Which he would, if some roles got swapped that he didn't do. In fact, if he knew there was another role swapper he might be more likely to defend another person who claimed that role.

MMOD: For the second time; is mathcam's claim plausable? Are there some role-swaps that happened that you didn't cause?

[Yosarian2]

but it does make sense as an antitown role swapper, and I could fairly reasonably see there being both a pro and anti town roleswapper in the game.

I've been under the impression that all roles and alignments were asigned randomally this game, so there could be two pro-town role-swappers, two anti-town roleswappers, or one pro-town and one anti-town. And of course, if the role's been swapped then it could be anything. Armlx could have been a scum trying to get a more powerful role for himself then a role-swapper, or a townie who thought mathcam was town and could do a better job, or...who knows. At this point, I'm not seeing the role as being any evidence of alingment on anyone's part, unless of course he's lying.

Mathcam: Can you confirm or deny that you were role-blocked night 1?

[Yosarian2]

Ah, thanks Coron, I misread that post.

[Yosarian2]

Yeah; I don't see any reason to unvote Mathcam. I basically believe his claim, but that dosn't make him any less scummy; in fact, roleswitcher's not an office I want to see in the hands of someone I'm suspicious of. In any case, MMOD should be able to just put someone else in that office after we lynch him anyway, the town won't lose that role.

[Yosarian2]

Except that several of us thought you were looking scummy even before the roleblocker claim, mathcam. I've had a bad vibe about your posts for much of the game.

[Yosarian2]

Well, anybody want to be switched tonight?

(shrug) As I said before, I've got no role at the moment. So, if no one else wants to be, sure, we could use me to find out what's in some of those empty offices.