Random Mafia 2 Game Over

[mathcam]

Remind me never to play a game with Fritzler again.

I'm a cop, and I'm fairly certain of my sanity. My PM was fairly explicit. Pooky is scum.

Vote: Pooky.

Cam

[mathcam]

I just can't believe Pooky's claim. The reason I'm relatively confident in my sanity is that my investigation wasn't simply innocent/guilty. I got a detailed explanation of the weapons I found in Pooky's house when I investigated him. Now I'll be the first to disclaim that I'm not %100 sure on this, but I can't imagine we'll have a more productive day than lynching a very probable scum and testing my sanity. If we end up lynching the only guy that can doc-protect me tonight...well, whoops. C'est la vie.

not play with me again?

Yes. Your obviously overwhelming desire to be at the top of the posting list seems to have take control of your prevsiously reasonable brain. Very little of what you say contributes to the game, and perhaps most importantly, much of what you say actually

detracts

from it. This, however, has not stopped you from posting 30 times this game, only

three

of which have more than one line. On top of this, you've now been highly offensive to several players in this game. There is no doubt in my mind that if this were my game, you'd have been modkilled or replaced already.

Cam

[mathcam]

You have to put unvotes and votes in bold, XGreyJoyx...also, did you mean to FOS me instead of Pooky?

Fritzler makes me giggle, and he's been useful as hell (One for one ain't bad).

For the record, Fritzler make me giggle too, and I think he's a good guy, but his posts thus far are appropriate only in general discussion or a chat room or something. And actually, I think he's misplayed his role fairly egregiously today...if he had waited, and he's serious about being able to read Adele, then he could have daykilled

two

mafia today, Adele

and

Pooky, and we could be out hunting for a third right now.

Cam

[mathcam]

All is forgotten.

Now let's get to the issue at hand: Lynching that maniacal little teddy bear.

Cam

[mathcam]

I tend to agree that Pooky is overplaying the "don't lynch Cam" card. In any case, though Pooky's doing a good job of making himself look like a martyr, I know he's a good enough player to have pulled any of this off as scum. I just find it highly unlikely that we'll find a better lynch for today, so my vote on Pooky stays.

Fritzler: Not that I'm claiming that what you're accusing me of is impossible, but surely you'd conede that Antrax returns was a highly non-standard game, right? If I recall correctly, I ousted my own mafia teammate because I was pretty sure that some

other

cop had investigated him that night, so I though if he was going to be lynched anyway, I might as well get some credit for being the one to officially say that he was scum. I don't think anyone was really looking to lynch Pooky before I chimed in today.

Cam

[mathcam]

Result, mr. cop?

My role ended up being just a one-shot cop, so I won't have anything more to share.

Coron, while I concur that my sanity was "uncofirmed," I stated pretty clearly in the thread that I felt strongly that I was sane. I remain convinced that my play was correct.

If this was a plan between Pooky and I, wouldn't a much smarter plan have us at each other's throats on day 1? (Yeah, yeah, WIFOM, but still). Maybe this is just defensiveness, but I agree with Ibaesha on flyingmoocow, or anyone who really is pushing this link between Pooky and myself.

Cam

[mathcam]

There really is no logic behind why he claimed one-shot today instead of yesterday. The more I think about it, the more it just seems like it was a play error. The choice he made was obv not the best choice as a scum, it brung suspicion on him, and not the best choice as town for the same reason.

Not true. There is very little advantage to the town knowing that I'm 1-shot, whereas witholding this information from the mafia is a plus in our direction. It draws fire away from a presumably-existent regular cop, giving him/her more time to get some investigations done.

If he was a one shot, his best play would have been to claim that yesterday in order to possibly save his own neck last night.

Nope. My best play is

not

to save my own neck, WoLG, but to put the town in the best possible scenario to win the game. My argument above explains why I didn't come out with this info on day 1. On day 2, however, it would be dangerous for me to mislead the town, as if I kept up the pretense of being a regular cop, it could lead to some bad decisions being made. Is it that surprising that I didn't die last night? It's not like we have any dead docs yet, and who would make a better doc-protect than me?

I'll post more later on who I think is scummiest.

Cam

[mathcam]

I've played with you too, Coron, but you're not playing in a way that would make anyone think you're pro-town. If there is material which so clearly implicates someone so that you would call it hinding it to us "on a silver platter," then you should be overjoyed that you can prove to us that he/she is scum. We're waiting.

three word: "Turned out to be 1-shot" is exactly correct, not merely a choice of words on my part.

Cam

[mathcam]

mathcam- there is no one thing that says I am scum that I can quote for you, it's just the way he's been acting.

If that's the case, what exactly did you not want to hand to us on a silver platter? Also, "I am scum"??? A little Freudian slip, perhaps?

Vote: Coron.

He's been deliberately misleading today, and the possible Freudian slip puts him over the top.

Cam

[mathcam]

I am not deliberately misleading today, and misleading of today done by me is purely on acident, but I don't think I am.

Really? You made it seem like you had a nearly airtight argument for us, what with your "trust me" and "I'm not going to hand it to you on a silver platter," and when pressed, your only actual attack was "there's no one thing that I can really point to." Maybe you didn't realize what you were doing was anti-town, but that is an intentional deception on your part against the town. This "derivative of IS" playstyle is becoming a very common, and it hurts the town.

"fruedian slips" aren't really a big tell for me.

Lol. This has to be one of the funniest things I've read in a while. First of all, no one know what their tells are, so it's pretty ridiculous for you to claim that you know for a fact that

unconscious slips of the mind

don't affect you. Second of all, even if you

did

know your own tells, do you really think anyone would be so naive as to take your word for it when you dismissed one of them? i.e. "Oh yeah, I found almost airtight proof against Coron, but he says that it's not a tell of his, so I had to conclude he was innocent."

Now I'm not extremely confident that Coron is scum, but he's my best guess for today so far.

Cam

[mathcam]

Ummm....if everyone was role-blocked, how did Shamrock die?

Cam

[mathcam]

It'll prove whether or not he is innocent

Could you explain this? Wouldn't it just prove that he has/had the ability that he claimed? How would that explain anything about his innocence?

Cam

[mathcam]

If you think he's bluffing, I think the best play is to lynch him today. I'm suspicious of him for other reasons, and now he's come up with a role-claim which is just as likely to come from scum as it is from a townie. Whether or not he can prove this ability is rather irrelevant to me. While this is certainly an exaggeration, it's as if he claimed "Check this out, I'm a vig with the ability to make my kills look like they came from the mafia" and we're all "Ooooo, he's right...there

was

a mafia-looking kill last night."

On top of this, if Coron is a townie, then we're losing a relatively unhelpful role by lynching him...if we continue to investigate around and find someone else to lynch today, we're likely to out a power role we don't want outed.

In short, I'm happy with my vote on Coron.

Cam

[mathcam]

Your only "reason" why it's "B.S." is based on a statement that only you can verify! Give me games in print on the site that I can go check, and that's one thing -- bu you expect us to take your word for arguments that you're using to defend yourself?

Explain to me why it would be "hell of dumb" to claim your role as scum. You establish yourself as someone who's playing to help the town, and it doesn't actually help the town very much at all! It's a no-lose situation for mafia to claim and use this role if they indeed have it.

Cam

[mathcam]

Explain to me why it would be "hell of dumb" to claim your role as scum.

once again you mislabel my position, if you read what I say, I say that I would have to be hell of dumb to claim this ability

if I don't have it

independant of whether or not I am town.

Actually, if

you

read what you say, further down that very same sentence you state that it would be hell of dumb do do it as scum

with

that ability.

Cam

[mathcam]

Here's your quote, Coron:

I'd have to be hell of dumb to do it as scum or town without the ability and as scum with that ability

It seems to indicate that you think it would be "hell of dumb" to claim the role you claimed if any of the three cases hold:

1) You are scum without the ability.
2) You are town without the ability.
3) You are scum with the ability.

I suppose there's little harm in revealing my full role at this point...I got to investigate until I found a scum. Since that was night one, I turned out to be one-shot (as opposed to finding a couple of innocents before my one scum).

In any case, my suspicion of Coron is waning (but, of course, not gone).

Unvote: Coron

for now. Though I find several things about Coron suspicious, I certainly believe that he has the ability that he claims, and I think I'd have to concede it's not an extremely useful role for the mafia to have.

Maybe no lynch is the best option for today. We can test Coron's role, and if he's not totally making up this role, then there's no harm done...we won't lose anyone overnight.

Cam

[mathcam]

I guess there would have to be a rather large number of things

not

going wrong to make the no lynch thing work, and the best thing we get out of it is that Coron's telling the truth about his ability, which doesn't even give us his alignment. So yeah, forget the whole no lynch thing. There's just too many unknowns to be able to draw any sort of meaningful conclusion from whatever result we get out.

Cam

[mathcam]

Okay, time to go lurker-hunting. This is fair warning for those of you who like to lurk and then claim "Oh, I wasn't lurking...I just didn't have anything to say." Post or perish.

Cam

[mathcam]

Vote: HairyCarey.

Cam

[mathcam]

Okay, time to go lurker-hunting. This is fair warning for those of you who like to lurk and then claim "Oh, I wasn't lurking...I just didn't have anything to say." Post or perish.

Cam

[mathcam]

I knew as soon as I received a guilty that I would have no more investigations. If you read through my posts again, I think you'll see I was pretty confident about Pooky...perhaps not 100%, but there's really very little that can happen in a mafia game that would make me 100% confident of anything. I'm not sure what part of the argument doesn't make sense...by not revealing I'm a 1-shot cop, I become a bigger target for the mafia.

Cam

[mathcam]

This is pretty ridiculous. Mod?

Cam

[mathcam]

Let's just lynch HaireyCarey. I have no idea if he's scum or not, but the only way to revive this game is with a new day.

Cam

[mathcam]

Eh, I'd rather lynch someone who's holding the game up. The more active players we have, the more fun it will be in the upcoming days.

Cam

[mathcam]

Agreed -- I guess my point is that if we're mostly stabbing in the dark here, let's stab in the direction of someone who's not going to be helping us out tomorrow. If you feel like xGJx is more than a stab in the dark, he's clearly the right vote...I'm just not so convinced.

Cam

[mathcam]

While I concur that Coron is not clearly pro-town, I'm also not sure he's our best bet at the moment. There's plenty of minor evidence to suggest that he's innocent, and he's an active player.

Perhaps I'm just haripng on an irrelevant point here, but I think it behooves us to lynch someone who's not helping out.

Cam

[mathcam]

Thanks for the replacements and the deadline, armlx.

I'm happy with lynching xGJx for today. Let's hope we can start tomorrow with a little more enthusiasm.

Cam

[mathcam]

He's not getting here and getting enough unvotes in the next 24 hours. Let's just get on with it.

Cam

[mathcam]

It takes a day longer to wait than it does to not wait.

Cam

[mathcam]

I am imposing a deadline for May 24th at 6:00 pm EST given the length of this day.

[mathcam]

Not exactly a solid pro-town attitude there, TWN...but I actually found WOLG's first post of the day even more bizarre than TWN's posts. "Wow"? For what? The shortest night scene ever written? (No offense, armlx). Maybe you could explain, wolg?

Cam

[mathcam]

I'm not sure I buy that, but I'm as happy with moocow as I am with wolg, so

Vote: moocow.

Cam

[mathcam]

I think I might be leaning back toward WOLG. His first post just strikes me as so insincere...It really gave more of a feel of "Heh heh, the town should be

really

confused now" than a "Wow, that was unexpected." I'll switch back if it means a lynch, but for now I'll

Unvote, Vote: WOLG.

Cam

[mathcam]

WOLG, I think you're confused. My principal suspicion on you is based on your first post

today

, not your first post in general.

I'd like that addressed, but for now, fine:

Unvote, Vote: Moocow.

Cam

[mathcam]

It wasn't the involvedness that was concerning me, but in any case, I'll aceept your response for now (at least until tomorrow).

I'm fine with lynching moocow. This games needs to pick up some momentum.

Cam

[mathcam]

There's no one even close to as scummy as TWN looks right now.

Vote: three word name.

That's 4, and it takes 5 to lynch.

Cam

[mathcam]

TWN: Whether or not we believe/test your claim is for

us

to decide, not you. If we

had

chosen to believe you, and you are innocent, we wouldn't have just wasted our lynch.

In any case, we have bigger fish to fry: I lied to the town when I was a 1-shot doc. I was role-blocked that night, presumably by a mafia role-blocker, and I figured that this would continue to happen unless the mafia believed that I was no longer a threat to them. Fortunately, this plan worked: I found some fairly incriminating evidence against Lloyd last night. I think the best plan right now would be to give him a chance to confess to what I know about him, and if he slips up, we lynch him.

While we wait, some things that bother me:
1) There must be some fairly strong restriction on the cult. If they've been able to recruit every night, and this is the first one that died, there's at least 3 of them out there (the initial leader, 4 nights of recuiting, minus one that's dead, and one from Coron's mass role-block). If there were more than 3, the game would presumably be over. In any case, it seems unlikely that with the number of kills we've been seeing, and the fairly weak pro-town roles, that the cult could be at all powerful, at least if the town had any chance of winning in the first place. So maybe there's only 1 or 2 cult members...maybe they had a max size of 3 or something.

2) I'm concerned about TWN. Can he be recruited? If so, it's up to the mafia to kill him for us. It'd be an intriguing scenario if the last mafia defended himself by pointing out that he was the only who who could kill a cult TWN. Hmm. Another note is that TWN might have had a 1-lynch immunity. A scum with a 1-lynch immunity would have his best play to claim unlynchability, banking that the town wouldn't be willing to risk losing 2 lynches trying it again. I'm not advocating lynching TWN again, especially with the whole Lloyd thing, but it's something to keep in mind.

Cam

[mathcam]

TWN: Fair enough.

Lloyd:
1) Doc vs. cop was very clearly a typo given the rest of my post. Even if I didn't have information on you, I'd find you very scummy for choosing to make a point about this.

2) I don't understand what your point here is.

3) I'm not fishing for info, you're stalling for time.

Vote: Lloyd.

Cam

[mathcam]

What sig?

In any case, you have all of my results. I got Pooky scummy on night 1, and was role-blocked on nights 2 and 3 (one intentionally, one by Coron). The speculation has been correct that my investigation was not conclusive on Lloyd. All I learned was that Lloyd had many things that could be used as weapons. This might be incriminating, or it might be the default "You don't find anything" that armlx would send me...I haven't gotten an innocent investigation yet to test it against. I found Lloyd's response to the whole scenario fairly scummy, so I was willing to upgrade the inconclusivesness to a vote. I think the role claim is fairly believable at this point, however, so I take back my vote for now.

Unvote: Lloyd.

Cam

[mathcam]

Why does that deserve an FOS? I wanted Lloyd to claim, since I had reason to believe he was scum. If I could keep it ambiguous, it's all the harder for him to do so accurately if he's scum (and not just make a fake claim which fits whatever information I provide).

Viper: I think it might be beneficial if you could elaborate, or give your thoughts on the current situation.

Cam

[mathcam]

Of course I could be scum. Anyone could be scum. This is especially the case since there's a cult involved -- even people with plausible role claims could have since been converted.

What makes you think I'd choose you as my target for tonight? It's not like it's of any benefit to me to know that you're scum if I can't lynch you.

Cam

[mathcam]

That makes a lot of sense. I thought armlx had just sent me a repeat PM when I was going through my night choices. I was blocked three times, I guess once by Coron and twice by unknown forces. I know that's somewhat hard to believe, but even if I were mafia, I'd know how many night kills I had submitted.

[mathcam]

Just a side note: I read through my role-block PMs and found this line that I had dismissed before. Whenever I'm role-blocked, I wake up with a ringing in my ears.

Cam

[mathcam]

Me too. My investigations:

1) Pooky
2) Fritzler
3) Turbovolver
4) WoLG
5) Lloyd

Cam

[mathcam]

Ok.

Vote: Viper.

Cam

[mathcam]

@WOLG: I got ringing in my ears on Turbo anbd Fritzler. I hope you can piece everything together and figure the rest out.

I don't find either Turbo or Ibaesha particularly scummy at this point.

I'm actually leaning toward going back to Lloyd, for three reasons:

1) He's currently just as lurky as viper, and unlike viper, this is not just "Lloyd-like" behaviour showing through (right? I don't know Lloyd all that well, I suppose). He was the target of the closest thing we have to an investigation, and I get the feeling he's just hoping that all will disappear.
2) I read my results PM, and it definitely implies he has the means to kill people. While this

might

be armlx's way of being cute and saying he's innocent, I think it's worth testing. There's nothing that would make me feel dumber than ignoring a guilty investigation once I've already verified my sanity.
3) His response to my accusation at the start of the day -- just all-around scummy. His role claim bought him some pro-town points, but if he's cult, he still has the ability to make that claim. Actually, now that I think about it, the somewhat vague investigation might indicate cultness, as opposed to mafianess.

In any case, I think my mind is made up.

Unvote: Viper, Vote: Lloyd.

And I think we definitely need to have viper replaced. If he's not going to participate, he shouldn't be allowed to play.

Cam

[mathcam]

Agreed, which was especially weird given his:

When someone doesn't find people particular scummy at this point, that raises an alarm to me, that he's trying to figure out which side to take in order to better his own agenda.

To clarfiy my position, "not finding someone particularly scummy" isn't the same as "thinking they're probably innocent." The posting war they've got going is just an argument, as likely to occur between two townies as any other combination of rules.

Cam

[mathcam]

three word name is definitely scum. If he was town, he's cult by now after that demonstration of his ability.

Hm. This is actually a pretty strong point against TWN. The one thing that lessens this is that if recruits lose their ability, then the cult doesn't have much use for him, and he's a pretty massive kill target. The cult would surely prefer innocuous townies who are going to be around forever. On that note, why isn't he dead? Either the scum groups are trying only to shoot each other, or this is another pretty strong mark against twn.

Cam

[mathcam]

Why would it matter if he keeps his ability or not? The first reaction to lynch protection seems to be "yep, town", so I'd think cult would want him on their team (and killing scums would probably want him dead, not sure what happened there). I thought he said he only had one-shot lynch protection anyway (he was lying when he claimed fully unlynchable).

My point was exactly that -- that scum would want him dead, and the cult's main strength is having people alive, thereby making him a not-so-prime target.

In re-reading, I notice very subtle agreement between Turbovolver / Sotty7 and mathcam. They seem to attack other people separately, but never seem to attack each other.

Interesting, I thought the same about you and TWN, who probably not coincidentally, are also the two people I find most suspicious. viper's probably in third, with the rest of the crew ranging from "probably innocent" to "not that scummy."

One random note: I think that Lloyd and TWN are the only two people to vote for themselves all game. A coincidence? Or a condition needed to earn their cult recruitment for the night?

Cam

[mathcam]

Okay, a fair observation, but hardly a theory-killer. Maybe only the recruiter has to do it, or any of a hundred possible other explanations.

A thought on TWN: If he was mafia, why would he have confessed that his lynch immunity was 1-shot? An unlynchable player seems pretty nearly guaranteed pro-town, so he doesn't have much to gain by making that revelation.

Yup, Lloyd's keeping my vote.

Cam

[mathcam]

I make a fair observation, yet I keep your vote. I think you're grasping for reasons to vote for me

My original vote on you was not motivated by my theory-in-passing that self-voters were likely scum. That you made an argument that might not be the best theory doesn't affect my night investigation of you. Plus, it's not like scum can't make good points.

How come you are approaching HairyCarey and viper0933's behaviors differently?

When we were lynching HC, I didn't have any strong opinions on who was scum. Barring anything like that, I'd prefer to go after a lurker. Today, I don't think we're in that position. viper's actions have not indicated innocence to me -- in fact, he's my third most suspicious, as I mentioned in my previous post.

Cam

[mathcam]

Mathcam, weren't you one of the original supporters of lynch all liars?

Nope, quite the opposite.

Cam

[mathcam]

A whole bunch of people on the site made quizzes about themselves, and Mathcam's had a question about a mafia phrase he subscribed to, IIRC. I thought the correct answer was LAL. The thread's somewhere in General Discussion I think.

Ah. Yeah, that was confusingly-worded, but there was an extra negative in the question. I supported the other three options but not LAL. I think my views on this are pretty well-known.

Cam

[mathcam]

I think ibaesha's right about viper (both the SK and the not deserving to win), so he'll be my top choice today.

Would a claim accomplish anything? Even the pro-town sounding roles could have been converted to cult. That said, I'm game if people think it'll help...it's not like there's much good keeping secrets now.

Cam

[mathcam]

Viper: Can I ask why you wanted to be replaced? I ask because you've been signing up to do

more

things on the site recently, so it's clear you're not overburdened or going away or anything. Is it because you find the game too slow? It's highly dickish to the mod, and to your fellow players, to sign up for a game (especially to replace!), decide you're bored with it, and then ask to be replaced because of it. When you sign up for a game, you have a reponsibility to contribute to its progress. Finally, your signature is a stupid place to put anything you want people to see. Some people have signatures turned off, some people don't bother to read them, and worst of all, when you change your signature, that text disappears. If you want the mod to know you want to be replaced, PM him/her.

I'm just fed up.

Vote: viper.

Cam

[mathcam]

Actually, this is stupid. I'm cult. So is Ibaesha. I suspect viper's the SK, and that twn is town, but it doesn't really matter to me either way. We'll recruit whichever of twn or viper is willing to lynch the other, and three of us can win together. There's no sense in pretending any more. Obviously Ibaesha and I will never vote to lynch each other, so there's no hope of lynching either of us.

Incidentally, I wasn't lying about my role -- it was just my role before I got recruited.

Cam

[mathcam]

As far as I know, no one is unrecruitable, and since it's only to each person's advantage to be recruited at this point, I doubt that anyone would be hiding this fact either. Then again, see the next paragraph.

At this point, I'm guessing I was wrong about twn. His posts 646 and 649 give really strong vibes of stretching to come up with some excuse not to follown along with the plan. Why would this be? If he actually were town, he can't win the game as town, so why not take the surefire win as cult tonight? The only explanation that seems plausible is that he's playing for a solo win as an SK under the bizarre interpretation that it's worth more.

At this point, I think it's basically up to Primate. We can lynch twn and recruit you tonight (assuming you don't have anything too fancy up your sleeve, I suppose), or we can stalemate and go to a no lynch, where I'm not quite sure exactly what will happen.

Keep in mind that the SK, while not having full nightkill immunity, might have

two

immunities, which would be just as damning to the rest of us in a couple of scenarios.

Cam

[mathcam]

This is why I wouldn't mind knowing exactly what your win condition is. My worry is that if we lynch the SK, we won't even go to night, leaving me with a loss.

We win when everyone remaining is cult. Unless armlx chooses to be a total dick about the whole thing, then there's no way he'd call the game against you before we had a chance to recruit you.

'Cam, what type of immunity are you talking about as his second immunity?

Nightkill immunity.

Cam

[mathcam]

Well, it doesn't really help to vote for me or Ibaesha, so you can choose between yourself and twn. Either is fine by with us, so whichever you'd prefer...

Cam

[mathcam]

Vote: TWN.

Cam

[mathcam]

Can still recruit *my arse*

Sorry, didn't have much of a choice there. I'm not sure you have too much room to complain given that you won despite the fact that we made the best possible play. Oh well.

It says in the nightchoices list that Mathcam investigated me not Lloyd (on the night he wasn't blocked), if I'm understanding it right... Were you lying to us again, Cam?

Probably. I was confused at one point about what happened what night, though.

Scum really had no reason to believe me, so it's not that surprising. What's the alternative? Go after someone at random, and probably end up blocking a townie? It's a better play to go after someone you

know

could harm you.

Cam

[mathcam]

Well, that assumes a knowledge of the setup that was impossible at the time. Not to say that I knew for a fact that primate thought he was a townie, but I thought I had a decent read on him, and a read that turned out to be correct -- Primate thought he was a townie. That he

wasn't

a townie was unknown even to him, so certainly to us as well. So I wouldn't say what you proposed was a better play, even though it had a better chance of winning if we had known all of the information -- but I guess it's just semantics at that point.

I definitely did investigate WOLG at some point, I just wasn't sure which night.

Cam