Newbie 1156 - Over

[Revenus]

I know you want Kiwi as your scum, but you just said "i'll compromise for someone else's lynch"

And then you post this.

[Revenus]

"you couldn't recognize a coherent and well-thought out argument oh but wait I haven't posted any yet"

[Revenus]

and yeah I know you've been tunneling Kiwi all game, it's a bad lynch, and with the 3 scummiest people on it, it makes me feel that much better about her (for now)

[PrimeIntellect]

You're really bad at this "constructive discussion" thing, aren't you?

Ok, let me rephrase it.

What do you think about lynching numberQ OR ggoodie?

previewedit: Thanks for proving my point?

[Revenus]

What do I think? It's a bad idea.


What do you think? It's a good idea; but in this game we have to explain why we think lynches are a good idea. I don't have to prove that either of those lynches are bad ideas if you can't prove that theres any basis to them.

[Revenus]

You're really bad at this "constructive discussion" thing, aren't you?

Ok, let me rephrase it.

What do you think about lynching numberQ OR ggoodie?

previewedit: Thanks for proving my point?

Constructive discussion? You put albert on your townlist solely because he is "hilarious" and you put theam/don on your townlist solely because "he claimed vanilla".


When I press you on this you go "bro bro, bro"

[PrimeIntellect]

"No, you."

That's all I'm getting out of you.
We don't even need you in order to have a majority.
It's a shame the scum won't ever kill you, though. You're far too terrible for them to do that.

previewedit: Yeah, bro.

[Revenus]

also you asking about millers in this set up is "lol" and we should disregard anything about you asking people to read when you have shown that you haven't even readd the games opening posts.


And how am I saying "no you".

I'm asking you to explain why either of those people are good lynches, since that's what scumhunting is. You shouldn't need me to defend them when you haven't even provided a basis of attack.

And going "yeah bro" to my reasons why your townlist is bad looks really good.

[PrimeIntellect]

If you can't see that it's not WHAT they say, it's HOW and WHEN they say it, then all I can really tell you is: don't feel bad. It's something that comes in time. Play a bunch of games and maybe you'll start to develop that skill.

[Revenus]

"No, you."

That's all I'm getting out of you.
We don't even need you in order to have a majority.
It's a shame the scum won't ever kill you, though. You're far too terrible for them to do that.

previewedit: Yeah, bro.

You don't need me?

So it'd be you, zmm, donquixote and who?

Kiwi? no.

Me? no.

The two guys you would be willing to lynch instead of kiwi? no.

Shii has already called one of you or rampage scummy and I doubt he'll be willing to go along with any of the people you listed as scum, especially since he thinks most of them are town.


So 3/9 is a majority now? ok.

[Revenus]

If you can't see that it's not WHAT they say, it's HOW and WHEN they say it, then all I can really tell you is: don't feel bad. It's something that comes in time. Play a bunch of games and maybe you'll start to develop that skill.

I find it funny that someone who says

I have absolutely no experience.
Played IRC mafia a bit, though.

is telling that to someone who has plenty of forum mafia experience.

[PrimeIntellect]

LOL I had some bets with friends if you'd catch that post or not.
I just lost a lot of money.

[Revenus]

So you're pretty much conceding that at this point you're flaming me with no basis right?


Unlike you I read every post in this game.

[PrimeIntellect]

At any rate, this is helpful in that I went from 99% sure you're town to 200% sure you're town.

That was magnificent, good sir.

[Revenus]

good night, hopefully when I get home tomorrow, the good members of town will have at least some consensus on the direction we want to go

[PrimeIntellect]

sirlin

tbh Revenus I thought you'd quote this one first. But man you remembered my original post way quick. Props on that.

[Adc75]

Still working on my ISOs ATM.

But in the meantime, to answer number Q, I stated my suspicion of rev way back on the post I initially voted theam in.

Im pretty sure he's town right now however. I voted him to gauge his reaction to being voted by someone he listed as town. When he kept his cool, I got a good feeling about him being town and backed off.

Prime: you may be onto something with ggodie. More on that later.

[Shiidaji]

Totally forgot about that post, Prime, lol. Was the bet worth a lot?


Before I go to sleep, I want to ask Ggoodie to elaborate on his top scum suspects currently, when he gets on next.

[Shiidaji]

Also, one-week anniversary of the Newbie game, wooh :>

[PrimeIntellect]

Totally forgot about that post, Prime, lol. Was the bet worth a lot?

Nah, I just exaggerated a bit. I was surprised as hell that he quoted it so quickly, though. I had literally just started the bet and refreshed and BAM he was all over it.

Oh that reminds me; while you're here, I understand that you find zMM or DQ scummy (I forget which) but what do you think about a Kiwi lynch? A numberQ/ggoodie lynch?

[zMuffinMan]

OK, this is going to be a fairly long post so I'll cut it into sections.

First section is responses to some things...



@Revenus,

and trying to cut off discussion is simply trying to cut off discussion. that's where YOU'RE wrong.

You're mistaking something here.

Albert

was

trying to cut off discussion, I am not denying this.

What I am trying to get across to you is that this isn't actually anti-town or scummy like you're suggesting it is.

If you don't understand what I mean, then tell me why, and I'll try to explain it better.

What things did ABR contribute to scumhunting? He never explained why he voted Kiwi. He just saw an opportunity, and went for it.

Again, you're mistaking something here.

Scum hunting isn't necessarily posting large amounts of text and writing convincing cases and explaining everything through logic and reasoning and whatnot.

Scum hunting is finding scum. That's it. Nothing else.

Methods differ. A lot.

You think scum hunting is about contributing to discussion and making detailed, logical cases or whatever... And that's fine, that's your playstyle. But if you want to go and play in different areas of this site, you're going to come across different playstyles and you're going to have to get used to it. Not everyone contributes in the way you're expecting them to contribute. Your main issue with Albert is nothing more than a playstyle clash.

Your other issue is that you weren't going about extracting the information you wanted from Albert the right way. And, again, you're going to come across some people in other areas of this site that sometimes even get upset when you interact with them the wrong way.

In any case, he jumped off theamatuer long after it was dead. You trying to have him take credit for that wagon dissolving is laughable.

I wasn't trying to take credit for it. I thought the wagon dissolved after he switched to Kiwi. Went back and checked, it actually dissolved after the VT claim. Meh. It was a moot point anyway.

edit: your play in other games doesn't impact my read of you this game.

I linked that game because of the similarities between Albert's play in this game and my play in that game (i.e. refusal to give more information than was necessary, and the fact I was attacked because of it).




-------------------



@numberQ,

So you don't think Adc is scummy anymore... because he wanted to lynch someone you thought was town?

No. I think ADC is town because of

why

he wanted to lynch someone I think is town, and some of the other things he said after that.

Prime's tone is completely anti-discussion and therefore anti-town.

It actually isn't.




-------------------


So, anyway, starting with explaining my read on ADC,

Initially I thought ADC was scummy because of his early posts in regards to the Revenus v theamateur argument that was taking place at the time. #48 was a bad kind of fence-sitting post in which he refuses to vote (sometimes considered scummy) and in #80, I felt the reasons for his theamateur vote were a cop-out (OMGUS+bad play=/=scummy) AND he also fence sat on his Revenus read (calling Revenus 'slightly suspicious' but saying it's his first game so he isn't too sure). This sort of thing is a good way for scum to approach a town-on-town argument, since it leaves both options open for lynching.

His next posts after those did nothing to change my mind on him, especially posts like #104 and #106 which made me think he was trying to coast through the game at that point without actually contributing anything valid to the discussion.

#192 was a decent post. It let me know that ADC was (

finally

) starting to analyse the game properly. And he wasn't just looking at the surface of things; he was analysing intent and underlying emotion and whatnot.

#234 was the turning point in my read on ADC. Made me double-take actually. Like, WIFOM reasons aside, what kind of scum says something like that? It's far more likely that scum would make up something (and it's not like there wasn't a mountain of crap to make up about theamateur at the time) to push a lynch. But the phrasing of that post and the way it came across to me read as genuinely town and not wanting possible scum to slip away.

#243 is also interesting. Again, WIFOM reasons aside, I do not see ADC-scum saying "

and I think I have a beat on his partner

" if he knows theamateur is going to be a mislynch. The way in which that whole second paragraph came across read as town to me, as though he genuinely been thinking about it, and this was the conclusion he came to. It did not seem contrived at all. #248, #249, #255 are further examples of this sort of process. It's not that it's impossible for scum to say something like this, but the way I read it, the intonation was that of a townie.

Long story short, the rest of his posts maintained the town read on him I developed in these posts.




-------------------

On Prime,

First post that gave me mild town vibes was #11, in which he called Verdashi town because he hadn't yet confirmed. I say mild because I could see scum doing this just for the sake of it, but it's rather bold and unnecessary and doesn't actually make him look good in any way, so it seemed like a genuine thought process. This is an example of what I mean when I talk about tone.

#98 continues the though process on Verdashi, and explains a bit about his initial read on Kiwi. Again, the overall tone of this post reads as town thinking about actions and assessing what they mean (looking for and assessing underlying meaning behind posts is something I consider a town tell, if it wasn't already obvious).

#184 is another excellent example of what I mean by tone. Especially the last part of that ("

TAKE THIS HOW YOU WILL

"). This whole post reads as genuine.

#315, #317 are examples of a particular playstyle that's similar to my own when I'm town. I get reads on people based on my perception of their demeanour. Sort of what Albert touched on in #441. Scum are more likely to be in the people who are trying to fit the mould of a pro-town player - i.e. lots of "content" because they feel the need to fit in. I sometimes spot townies just because they have an air about them that screams "I don't give a fuck!" - correctly spotting this instead of looking at the surface (e.g. "he wants to cut discussion - discussion is pro-town - lack of discussion is anti-town - therefore he is scummy" which I think is just a crap argument altogether, because scum are not likely to openly go "hey, I'm cutting off discussion, BL LOloLoOl")

And posts like #375, #377, #379, #382, etc etc are examples of the "I don't give a fuck!" attitude I was just talking about.

And so on and so forth, the rest of his posts scream town.

People seem to think he's playing in an anti-town way for God knows what reason, but he's not. He's told you who he suspects, he's told you why - that's not anti-town, and it's not scummy. He may not be the best when it comes to writing full blown cases or ISO analyses or whatever, but so what?




-------------------

I'll do the rest of my reads later.

[ggoodie12]

If not Kiwi, then we'll compromise and lynch number or ggoodie or someone.

Nowhere before this post can I find any mention of you being suspicious of me. If you aren't suspicious of someone why would you vouch for their lynch?

Totally forgot about that post, Prime, lol. Was the bet worth a lot?


Before I go to sleep, I want to ask Ggoodie to elaborate on his top scum suspects currently, when he gets on next.

I'll get back to you on that this afternoon when I have time to read the last few pages a bit more carefully.

[DonQuixote]

PI I'm not gonna support a lynch besides PK or NumberQ they are the most likely scum at this momment by a fairly large margin. G could be scum but there's so little to pull from it's hard to tell. Shii is leaning town on me from the previous discussion, I don't think scum would be that non-commital. They tend to be afraid of openly changing their mind.

Don's 611: Ah, yes, very easy to refer to a few posts instead of actually explaining your arguments. I think I see part of the case you have against PK, but I want to hear it from you: what about those posts don't you like? I'd like an explanation of your other reads too. Simply stating your opinions with no explanation does not help town find scum.

That's the point of just directing you too some quotes. I want people to figure out what I'm seeing and then discuss it. I don't believe it's in the town's interests to tell them what's scummy when instead I can show them. I will explain my other reads after we get some more discussion on PK. We have 2 weeks there's no reason not to focus on one person at a time.

Don's 615: No one would have thought Prime scummy for hammering theam? I know I would have wondered exactly why he thought it necessary to cut almost all of our day 1 discussion short. It was stated that a hammer then would not be good for town, so scumPrime had plenty of reason to not hammer then. Plus, why couldn't he have just been waiting for some hapless townie to hammer theam? That way, when theam flips town (under the hypothetical that Prime is scum and theam (you) isn't), he wouldn't have even been on the wagon that did it.

Of course you would. You spent the early game voting theam and trying to set up a double standard where anyone who lynched theam must be scum. You went out of your way to try and set up rev as the next lynch early on. What I meant is, townies wouldn't blame PI for hammering the obvscum.

[Revenus]

"i don't give a fuck" attitudes are generally those of scum who are too lazy to read the game. town cares about finding scum.

and yes, you do need to give more than just *voting* someone to scumhunt. scumhunting isn't just voting for scum; its rooting them out along with their scumbuddies through their posting weaknesses. playing like an anti-town douche is scummy. therefore, zmm and prime are the scummiest people in the game.

i'm not sure how I feel on DQ just on the basis that I don't see the kiwi/numberq reasons as "very good", but for now he's on the town/scum fence for me.

[Revenus]

And zmm, you specifically haven't been that "scummy" but your defense of rampage's blatant anti-town play (which no one seems to think is pro-town except you) makes me think that you're just trying to salvage your scumteam.