Mini 1186: Repo! The Genetic Mafia - Game Over!

[Yosarian2]

@Yos - time to explain how BM was obv. trying to get Incog lynched, yeah?

Hmm? What do you mean?

First here:

Trip, Haylen is obvscum because she's pretty obviously making up stuff as she goes along. The meta thing was one piece of evidence, but if you read along with my post 14 you'll see me pointing out more of her making stuff up as she goes along too.

The other reason why I think Haylen is obvscum has to do with meta, which I don't expect you to know about -- Haylen tends to get much more emotional and all over the place as town but in this game she seems fairly stable, which is scummy for her. Plus there's the fact that everyone and their mother hasn't attacked her yet, which would have happened already if she was town.

Explain how this logically follows. You seem to be suggesting that Haylen-scum would not be bussed/distanced from on Day 1. Given that you presuppose that she is lynchbait as town, i'd say the opposite should be true. Haylen-scum would get the stink bussed out of her in the early going to take the heat off later, assuming her partners weren't complete novices.

On the topic, i dont know why you feel confident to draw the conclusion she is "stable" and not "all over the place" when she hasnt said a bloody thing yet. And reading over your post again, i realise that your reasoning for suspecting Haylen actually has no substance whatsoever. So please, please, please, please, explain to me, why you feel that somebody you admit yourself is a pretty easy mislynch at the best of times, is deserving of your vote today?

Oh my, i am looking forward to your reply!

@BM, it's tomorrow. Can you provide that reasoning now?

Yeah, two bits of bad news on that front. First is, it's still today. Second is, i dunno if you're gonna be around to ask me again tomorrow.

Unvote, Vote: Incognito

He continued to try to get people to vote incog:

@Battle- Today, right now, I would be against a lynching of me, Green Crayons, Incog, or Haylen. And your Incog vote doesn't make a lot sense. Can you provide further insight about your decision making process in that regard?

Against a lynch of Incog? How can you be against a lynch of Incog??

If you struggled with, what i felt was very very simple and coherent, reasoning for my Incog vote, i'll simplify it even more.

I am voting for Incognito because his Haylen-vote was contrived, the reasoning eminently fictitious.

@Bvoigt - Just random people i felt hadn't been adequately covered.

BM

When I defended Incog, and attacked TripMyWire for his attack on Incog, BM attacks me, and contines to attack Incog in the same post:

I suppose i'll offer a courtesy

FoS: Yosarian2

for inconsistency of argument. Why are you attacking Tripmywire for something (admittedly i hadnt noticed this) that i am equally guilty of? I'm not buying the point about Camn either. Sure, he isnt coming over as an inspired scumhunter, but Tripmywire certainly seems like a well-intentioned townie to me.

What i'd really like to see right now is some kind of direction. There's what, 2/3 votes on Haylen for reasons unjustified. I see Bvoigt just cast an inane vote for Peregrine.

I'd like to see Yos explain why Incognito's diabolical logic against Haylen is not scummy. Then explain why he has chosen to ignore me and focus his attack on Tripmywire. Finally, id like to see him give comment on Medicated Lain. A Day 1 Yos lynch isn't ideal, but dont think it's impossible.

I think we're lynching one of Incognito, Medicated Lain or Yosarian2 today. Now would be a good time to step up and plead a case either way on those 3 individuals.

BM

He then scaled it up to a full vote on me in his ISO post #21, while still attacking incognito even in the post where he voted me.

He didn't vote for Incog again, but he continued to attack him, in his ISO post #22 and #29.

BM really expended more energy trying to attack Incognito then he did anyone else.

[Medicated Lain]

I am about half way through the game.

unvote

Completely agreeing with Yos at this point. I was being lazy early in the day. Definitely looking at Camn again however.

Very serious

.

Then I propose that you day kill first person to five votes (so as to not chance anything with a person at six votes) today to replace what would (potentially) become our first D1 lynch. This will give us an "extra" lynch round in not having to go to night, using your day kill as a stand in for the first lynch.

vote: BattleMage.

Green Crayon's first vote of the day. Everything about this post that caught my eye.. now it's right back there. I'd say there's a 99.999% chance that there's no possible way for BM, GC, and Magua to be scum together. Magua actually seems quite pro town, in my opinion... Green Crayons is back in my eye... I guess going through day one again, I'll post more about this later.. but does anyone think anything of this?

Fixed the tags for ya. ~iPie

[Medicated Lain]

hey mod, if you'd like to fix my last post at all, I'd appreciate.

[Green Crayons]

Here are the things wrong with your post:
- That was not my first vote. I've told you this before. Stop making the same mistake.
- Magua is dead. He was town. So glad he's starting to seem "quite pro town" to you. You're good at this.
- The substance of that post dealt with Magua's commentary. My vote on BM had nothing to do with that (as later explained in my posts against BM). You're trying to group together three players (BM, Magua, GC) and categorize their play ("no possible way" ... we could "be scum together"). It's a baseless grouping.

[Green Crayons]

On another note, I will reread Incog's play this evening. The most I can recall from his substantive input has been the meta-cases and the lynch-the-replacement. And complaining about a lack of activity. I'm curious if I missed something else.

[Medicated Lain]

Right, will pay more attention in the next post I make.

It wasn't baseless.. obviously Magua wasn't scum. I'm not particularly grouping anyone together, so much as asking what everyone thinks of your vote there.

[Incognito]

Medicated Lain continues to convince me she's town; I think the mistake on Magua seems genuine enough and unlikely to be made by scum. As for ML's question, yeah, the serious vote GC made on BM is what makes me think GC is likely town considering the fact BM flipped scum and all.

@Thor: I've already said previously that I think Pine is likely town; I don't like him checking you off as town as quickly as he did or his complete lack of contribution all Day 2, but I'm thinking it's more him being lazy right now as opposed to some kind of scum-motivated buddying or something like that.

As for the case, no, I'm not repeating it for you. It's not you that I need to convince; it's the rest of the town that I need to convince. I know you'd love to get in a long drawn-out quote war because it'd make you look like you're actually doing stuff or whatever but sorry, ain't gonna happen.

If it is so demonstrable... Then why don't you go ahead and demonstrate it, Inc, because I was reading your Iso as I wrote that, and it seems pretty spot on to me

Uh no.



And thank God for some bit of sanity from Yos2's 475. I'd probably support any of the following lynches for Today: {camn, Thor, Trip}. Curious to see what Haylen might have to say about all of the recent stuff.

[camn]

We're not lynching Incognito today. He is so obviously town here it's ridiculous.

I disagree.
Please convince me. I am open to the idea.

[Incognito]

He just did in his 475. See, unlike you and Thor, he's actually looking at BM's posts and putting things together to say why people like me probably aren't scum. You seem more concerned with spreading this dumb, paranoia theory about "ONE OF THESE THREE PEOPLE BM MENTIONED MUST BE SCUM," which is exactly the kind of theory I'd expect flailing scum to be creating right now.

[bvoigt]

@bvoigt - your read on Pine?

I think he's scum. To an extent, his actions just look like laziness, but I think a townie would be trying to make an effort to ask questions, improve reads, make cases, etc.

I'm not supporting an Incog lynch; the reasons in this post still make me think he's town.

[Thor665]

@Yos - The bulk of your case for Incog = town is 'BM pushed him'
BM also pushed Camn and pushed on Crayons without ever voting for him - have you drawn deep conclusions from those interactions as well?
I'm really not feeling a pro town vibe from Incog - he never really was in any danger of being lynched during BM's push, and I'm calling it obv. distancing - thoughts?


@Incog - you're not willing to state the case on me so that I can show how weak and non-existent it is even though you're attacking me because you claim I don't understand it? Meh.
Also, I'm not on you for PoE via BM's terribad postings, I'm on you for PoE of the wagons Day 1 - try to keep up.

Magua,

bvoigt, camn, Incognito, Yosarian2,

Battle Mage

,

Pine

<-- final lynch.
I think camn and Yos are obv town, so they can be green too.

Magua,

bvoigt,

camn

, Incognito,

Yosarian2

,

Battle Mage

,

Pine

So I also think bvoigt is town, though Camn is a finicky girl and won't explain why he's obv. town - so that means you are an unknown from that wagon - you're claiming only one scum there? Or do you think one of my clears is a bad idea?

On the other side of the equation.

TripMyWire

Green Crayons

Medicated Lain

PeregrineV Thor665, Haylen

We have this - I'm town, Pere was town, Haylen looks fairly obv. town as does Crayon. That leaves ML who I'm slightly leaning town on, and TMW who I'd lynch for lack of looking town, but that's not an uber exciting lynch.

[Thor665]

@Incog - at least explain why the flake slot (Thor) is more scummy than the slot you have a meta read of that she'd never play this way as scum (Camn).

[Yosarian2]

I'm really not feeling a pro town vibe from Incog - he never really was in any danger of being lynched during BM's push, and I'm calling it obv. distancing - thoughts?

If he was distancing, and Incog was in no danger, then why did he move his vote around? Why didn't he just keep his vote on Incog, if there was no risk in doing so?

It looks more like BM was hunting around for a good lynch target. First he went after PeregrineV, then moved on when that wagon stalled. He took a shot at trying to lynch Incognito, and met with too much resistance, so he unvoted, but kept attacking him to keep him open as a lynch for later. He attacked me, but that wasn't going to go anywhere, so he dropped it. Finally, he went back to PeregrineV for the lynch. It really looks like all day he was doing a series of probing attacks on various town people to see who he'd be able to get a lynch on, and who he could plant seeds on so he could go back to them later.

[Thor665]

What about the Camn push - and do you think the Crayon push was similar to the push on you or not?

I don't mind TMW as a compromise victim - but if he's scum, and Incog isn't, either my read on bvoigt is way off, or my read on one of the other players I'm thinking is town is waaaaay off, and I actually think I have some solid towntells this game.

[TripMyWire]

Hi guys. Sorry, busy weekend.
I'm leaning towards an Incognito lynch. In addition to why I voted him day 1, I believe his determination to lynch Thor's slot was scummy. It's a way to narrow down the town without raising too many flags. It's a safe move for scum to make since at that time there were no solid scum suspects, yet plenty of fingers being pointed... it would have been an easy way to get a kill without revealing as much information as would be revealed if a more prominent participant were lynched. He didn't seem willing at all to wait around for Thor to get a word in either.
The thing that is keeping me from voting for him is what Yosarian pointed out in 475. It makes me hesitate a bit... but BM was so fickle in his actions that I believe it definitely could have been distancing from Incognito. Maybe he overdid it a little? Incognito wasn't in terrible danger of being lynched at that time at all so it seems it was pretty safe for him to do that.

[camn]

Yos.. it is pretty hard for me to see day 1 scum-heat as making any player "so obviously town here it's ridiculous". I need more than that.
PLease.
Show me what INCOG has done.
Because you and I both know.. Incog is not BAD at playing a pro-town game.. regardless of what anyone else does. So where is that game right now?

[Medicated Lain]

vote:PINE

Let's do this folk! Our day is nearing an end, and it's about time for the repoman to strike!

#1 scummiest player here, hands down. Great lacking of much content in about anything posted. The desire to hold a constant, consistent position, even when it doesn't matter any more... the case for this is Incog.

Incog, your first couple of posts just struck me oddly. I can't really put my finger on it, but it comes off as nervous and too-eager to make a good impression. Then when you had two people you were expressing suspicion of, you used a random number generator to choose which to vote for, instead of logical deduction.

It looked out of place to me, but not a definitive tell one way or the other. Suspicious, but not damning. Hence, FOS.

I am deliberately choosing to ignore camn et al for now. This debate has rapidly devolved from rational to mudslinging and strawman attacks, and I will not be a party to that. I am considering replacing out, as this is not the kind of environment I want to play this game in.

@Mod: Hey Pie, can you do something to reign in your players? I'm not easily offended, but this just isn't fun for me.

This post is especially damning. This is where he puts his choice on Incog, and this is the *only* time he says anything particularly pointing to Incog. I'll admit, I had my suspicions on incog too around this point, so all seemed alright then. However, we are on day two, and Pine has done *nothing* to contribute anything further to this game, he posts, but greatly lacking content.. just barely keeping in the game. Meanwhile, his stance stays on Incog, despite even by his own admission, he couldn't really explain why he was doing it.

Beyond that, the thing that really gets me, is Magua's post after:

No, Pine doesn't get let off the hook because of his join date. I've seen him play in three other games, and he's done just fine. I've never seen him (IMO) overreact like this to pressure before, so that's new.

@Pine:

Let me rephrase my question. Do you actually think camn is scum? If you couldn't vote camn, who would you be voting now?

Knowing for a fact that Magua's information was on the town side, I take this post far more seriously now. I believe we have a higher chance of hitting scum with pine, than anywhere else.

[Green Crayons]

- Glad to see Trip is doing the non-committal dance once again in post 489 (that's sarcasm). Is this is play style or is his vocal back-and-forth new to this game? It's one thing to see or vocalize a conflict in opinion. But to then just leave it there and do nothing - especially at this stage of the game, when there is plenty ability to contribute something substantive and a deadline in coming up - is suspicious.


- I'm inclined to think Pine is town and his less-than-ideal contribution to this game isn't coming from scum. Although I've been burned by a scum being aggressively unhelpful and incorrigible before (Empking, I think), I'm just not feeling it here.


- I'm sympathetic towards Pine's nebulous suspicion towards Incog because I often get that feeling. But I generally want something more before I'm happy with a lynch. camn's 463 sells it to me.

(1) Camn's first point is that Incog uses out-of-game reasons to vote three people. But Incog used that reasoning within the first two pages of the thread. A Page 2 vote generally gets the conversation flowing and the suspicion flaring -- the Page 2 reasoning rarely seals the lynch. So the notion that Incog would have been able to hide behind the fact that these were out-of-game reasons is based on the assumption that the suspicions underlying any of his Page 2 votes would have failed to develop further than this initial kernel of suspicion. I'm not buying it.

(2) In review of Incog's posts, I don't find his posts to be lacking in terms of frequency or substance -- at least, no more so than most in this game. I also feel like he didn't let his Haylen vote simply fester -- he brought it up often enough to justify it's continued placement. (As an aside, I am curious how BM's actions made Incog go from "D1 Haylen is scum" to "D2 Haylen is town"). So I'm not convinced the "hasn't tried to get us lynched" line is accurate. That said, camn doesn't explain what Incog has done that was "slinging mud." I'm assuming this is a loaded phrasing of "voicing suspicion?"


- Since it's coming to a now-or-never time (four days or so until deadline), I can get behind a Yos, camn, or Trip lynch. In that order, I believe. I obviously need to reread to solidify my opinions.

[camn]

Fine, lain. I will back a Pine lynch at deadline.

But incog is scum, I am convinced.. He has been calling Pine town a lot, which makes me think that Pine IS town. Incog can see he is worthless, so keeping him alive has scum motivation... But I am willing to test that theory.

[Medicated Lain]

If you can get behind camn, that's one I'd highly support as well. I get pretty heavy town reads from Yos at this point... I'm in heavy agreement with incog about camn or thor.. but I think Pine should be on that list too.

I'm disgusted by the way the Incog wagon formed so fast, and after looking back, Yos and bvoigt are quite right about Incog... BM was seriously pushing a lynch in the directions he was looking in, and I don't think he'd do that to a partner day one. The way camn is fixated on those three people is just like incog said, flailing scum, and that's why I voted for camn in the first place when she made that post about how one *must* be scum. Her play day one gave me mixed reads. Sometimes I like what she does, sometimes I don't... but particularly because her fixation on that set of people is the exact tactic i used in the last game I played as scum, I get incredibly bad vibes from her.. not to mention her trying to to sway me not to look at her simply because she wasn't looking at me... there was no justification in her accusations on the people she's made, there still isn't in my eyes, so I don't see how that was supposed to convince me of anything.

The only thing that's weird to me about incog, is that he isn't pushing camn more... or making a case there more. Given that there's been much talk about her meta from other games, from Incog himself even, that kind of baffles me a bit. But honestly, camn's case against incog isn't solid at all to me, I feel like there's an attempt for me to be turned into a sheep.

I am giving until tomorrow(game day) to decide anything on trip, mainly because I know he is limited in what he can do because of surgery and such right now.. I certainly won't go out of my way to defend his game... and the BM thing is still lingering in my head... the way he attacks is not aggressive, and bothers me, but the way he defends himself doesn't seem in the slightest the way a scum would do such. All I'll say is, Trip hon, step it up a notch!

The fact that camn would specifically call trip not scummy, and call incog scummy for pointing at trip completely baffles me. I'll agree that I don't understand the haylen case at all.. and even today, I didn't understand the fugitive accusation... now that Thor has placed in, I can certainly see some scumminess there, so maybe there was something I was missing.

All this being said:

unvote, vote: camn

Sorry camn, next game when you're not scum, maybe we can be friends. For now, you need to take a trip to the graveyard.

[Thor665]

I didn't understand the fugitive accusation... now that Thor has placed in, I can certainly see some scumminess there, so maybe there was something I was missing.

I won't describe the scumminess, but want it on record that I see the scumminess...you know...for later.

Also, if you think Camn is scummy looking, and think she needs pushing, and think it's odd that Incog isn't pushing her...why do you think Incog is town?

The Camn vote is at least better than the terrible Pine vote from earlier, so for that you earn a smilie face.

Who else foresees TMW compromise vote? Because I'm seeing the writing on the wall for that one, as everyone shuffles around the other wagons and keeps listing him in the scumreads. I'll be fascinated to see if anyone has a town read on the poor little dude.

[Medicated Lain]

I have no idea what you meant by that first part.

I already told you why incog looks town. All you need to do is look at Yos's post. BM wasn't throwing an arrow around, he was sincerely looking to hunt. I don't think BM would sincerely look to lynch his partner on day one, especially if that partner is a more experienced player, which I get the feeling is true with Incog.

Didn't your buddy camn already say she gets a town read from trip?

I reread Trip Wire.. and I am not convinced he is that scummy. The more I read it, them more scumvibes I get from INCOGNITO.
I would support a deadline lynch of Trip just to see what kind of light the flip would throw on INCOG.. but I think it is time for this:

VOTE: INCOGNITO
case:
First... his Trip vote, His Me-vote, and his Haylen-vote... all on out-of game reasons. Trip for post timing, me and Hayl for meta-reasons.. his reasons on me especially were inaccurate, poorly researched meta reasons.

I also agree that I'm a little less inclined to believe that he's scum, because I know he's not as experienced. Even though I see points against him, if you look at the way he defends himself in an ISO, it doesn't give me the impression that he's scum... he's actually trying to defend himself. I would be more worried if he were just ignoring all suspicions.

She would support a trip vote at the end of the day, but has stated that she doesn't see the scumminess there, and even used the fact that incog attacked trip as a reason for voting incog. That certainly doesn't sound very pro town to me.

Pine definitely doesn't look pro town, and the moer I hear from you Thor, the more I'm thinking a kill in your direction looks good too.

[Thor665]

The first part is me asking you to explain how I've made my slot scummy - no one else seemed to agree with you so you probably want to get it out in the open before I NK you.

Pine looks pro town - he defended a useless lurker slot from Yos, why do that as scum? For 'town points' off a lurker lynch? Yeah...

Incog looking town because of Yos is duly noted. I'll get back to you again when I want to hear some more parroted cases

[Incognito]

In response to Medicated Lain's thing, I'm gonna be completely honest: camn has been bugging me for a long while yeah, but at the same time I'd feel really awful if I'm just completely wrong about her and she's somehow town and ends up getting mislynched. Camn is just one of those players who holds a special place in my heart; I guess it's kinda like you and Trip in a way.

That said, the stuff she's been saying this game... it's just ridiculous. If we're not gonna lynch Thor, then we should lynch camn then.

unvote, vote: camn

I should also note that Thor's latest posts feel more town to me - I suppose it's possible that maybe the slot he replaced into was just dumb, uninterested town. I'm not really sure why ML thinks Thor's posting makes the slot look worse.

@Thor: I think one of your clears (a.k.a. camn) is a bad idea. I too think Yos is obvtown, and I think bvoigt looks pretty town too. What is it about her play that gives you a pro-town vibe? Have you ever played with her in a past game before?

As for why the flake slot felt scummy; as I explained before, I've just seen more instances of scum just giving up on a game without putting in effort into it shortly after replacing in than I've seen those same kinds of instances coming from town. Town usually at least try to engage in the action and figure things out - I could see scum just not feeling in the mood to put on this huge acting gig.

[Haylen]

Hi, this is Hayl, I did 2 night shifts in a row, I am currently a moody cow due to lack of sleep. Deal with it.

The first part is me asking you to explain how I've made my slot scummy - no one else seemed to agree with you so you probably want to get it out in the open before I NK you.

WOAH! What do ya mean by this?

I would currently be inclined to go with an Incog lynch from what i remember of his play yesterday and today, however, I want to make sure Im right and will be making his analysis my top priority before deadline. I would have expected him to push harder on any of the people who voted. I'm not taking into account the fact that BM mentioned him in his 3 people.

I am also not trusting Thor, though.

Incognito's opening double vote shenanigans suggest inside track knowledge.

Wasn't a night start. Why would you vote someone whom you thought was a tracker, anyway?

Haylen can be scum - her weak follow Incog play while appeasing and yet not directly addressing

Yes, I did. I explained that into the ground, you can't get more direct than that.

It appalls me because, having seen your play as town during this "slump" of yours (sorry - I don't think I ever saw you during a peak) it concerns me I'm getting a town read off of you because either;
1. You're going to be terrible to tke into late game for town.

My play gets better, the further into a game I get, it allows me to focus on less people hence why I was replacing into games for a bit. It served a purpose, I wanted to see if you were just sending jibes out instead of actually forming opinions.

Am I completely missing the point about 'recent stuff' I was asked to comment on? Speak now or forever hold your peace.

Aaaaand laptop running out of battery. Seeya tomorrow when more awake!