Mini 1159 - Powerrox93's Mini Normal I (Game Over)

Powerrox93 · Post Post #400 (ISO) » Mon May 16, 2011 7:30 am

Votecount 2.7

Updated as of post #399

C-Worl (5) - crazypianist1116, redtail896, Uncle Pain, RangeroftheNorth, Me=Weird
redtail896 (2) - Zdenek, bvoigt

Not voting (4) - Jase, C-Worl, tarsonisocelot, imaginality

If there's a mistake let me know.
11 Alive == 6 to Lynch && 6 to No-Lynch

C-Worl

will be lynched at deadline if votes doesn't change

V/LA

Jase: Until May 16
redtail896: Until May 16

Deadline

May 30 17:00 CEST

Powerrox93 · Post Post #401 (ISO) » Mon May 16, 2011 7:37 am

And as a way to hopefully reduce the number of replacements in this game, I'm hereby adding an additional rule to my ruleset

E1) If you got a sudden work overload or something similar, considering taking a few days(Three or four) V/LA and see if the situation improves. If it doesn't, then request replacement

Zdenek · Post Post #402 (ISO) » Mon May 16, 2011 8:24 am

I thought that Yabba was town. Now that bvoigt has posted I'm increasingly sure that slot is town, since he's replaced in and made some decent/original points.

Uncle Pain · Post Post #403 (ISO) » Mon May 16, 2011 11:02 am

Just noticed…

Mod: Votecounts 2.6 and 2.7 count only four votes on C-Worl although he had/has five. The players listed are correct.

Also, thank you for adding this rule.

tarsonisocelot · Post Post #404 (ISO) » Mon May 16, 2011 1:18 pm

Uncle Pain wrote:
About my defending thing, let me rephrase it as “I didn’t intend to defend him”. Yes, I actually do defend him by criticising arguments against him. My motivation however was and is not to rid him of attacks/attackers but to check out the ones attacking him because of the reasons they gave. At last Zdenek gave me some usable answer to my question.
Of course you are free to believe in any connection between redtail896 and me and I find it important that you at least consider it; ignoring clues doesn’t help town. Still, I’d like to state that, to my current knowledge, I’m not affiliated with him.

Scumpoints for UnclePain.

Me=Weird · Post Post #405 (ISO) » Mon May 16, 2011 2:33 pm

I see it as attempting to get people to judge reponses to the situation at hand as though it were a different situation with different optimal play. Your post did not seem to be proposing a hypothetical situation for theory discussion (which would have been yet another tangential, unuseful on if it had been, we've had enough of those on D1), it seemed more like you were trying to get us to treat C-Worl as cop guilty. That's why I see it as scummy play.
If someone else had posted that comment about cop-guilties at the point you did, would you view it as town, neutral, scummy or irrelevant?

Even if I were trying to make it out that he was a guilty, nobody would believe it without a claim. What would the point be? As I said before, my point wasn't that he's confirmed scum or anything, or even that we should lynch really quick, but that there is absolutely no reason to wait until deadline just because we can.
Re: Above 404, if you're going to say things are scummy, please say

why.

V/LA til Wednesday or Thursday as per rule E1.

By then, I should have time to take a good look at this game.

crazypianist1116 · Post Post #406 (ISO) » Mon May 16, 2011 3:53 pm

I'm still keeping my vote on C-Worl. Andrew was bad for town, the hammer was crap, and all he's done today is scream "But I'm VT!" Regardless of whether you're town or scum, your play is anti-town, and I don't want you here.

TO: THANK YOU FOR 386!!! We're actually getting some decent content. Now granted, the redtail read does seem a bit sheeped from other players but I do agree with it.

Uncle Pain has started losing his town status. The various scummy interjections have hurt as noted in previous posts. However he has been very pro town and don't have any intention of writing him off as scum.

Something weird strikes me about zdenek and me=weird. I need to go back and reread to see their actions more clearly.

I'm going to do a VCA soon, so sit tight.

Jase, why are you not voting C-Worl?

C-Worl · Post Post #407 (ISO) » Mon May 16, 2011 4:39 pm

crazypianist1116 wrote:Jase, why are you not voting C-Worl?

The same reason that ya'll are voting for me.

crazypianist1116 · Post Post #408 (ISO) » Mon May 16, 2011 4:48 pm

C-Worl, you do realize at this point it wouldn't be a quickhammer right? You've claimed already and there's enough information for him to make a decision.

Powerrox93 · Post Post #409 (ISO) » Mon May 16, 2011 5:17 pm

Votecount 2.8

Updated as of post #408

C-Worl (5) - crazypianist1116, redtail896, Uncle Pain, RangeroftheNorth, Me=Weird
redtail896 (2) - Zdenek, bvoigt

Not voting (4) - Jase, C-Worl, tarsonisocelot, imaginality

If there's a mistake let me know.
11 Alive == 6 to Lynch && 6 to No-Lynch

C-Worl

will be lynched at deadline if votes doesn't change

V/LA

Me=Weird until Thursday May 19th

Deadline

May 30 17:00 CEST

Uncle Pain wrote:Just noticed…

Mod: Votecounts 2.6 and 2.7 count only four votes on C-Worl although he had/has five. The players listed are correct.
Also, thank you for adding this rule.

Fixed

Me=Weird wrote:
V/LA til Wednesday or Thursday as per rule E1.
By then, I should have time to take a good look at this game.

Noted, that'll count as a V/LA until Thursday

C-Worl · Post Post #410 (ISO) » Mon May 16, 2011 5:30 pm

crazypianist1116 wrote:C-Worl, you do realize at this point it wouldn't be a quickhammer right? You've claimed already and there's enough information for him to make a decision.

That's not the point. He stated he wished to wait and gain information. I believe he'll want to wait until right before deadline to hammer so he can get as much info as possible.

Jase · Post Post #411 (ISO) » Mon May 16, 2011 6:41 pm

I'm not voting for C-worl because there are still things that I specifically want to do today, and being V/LA (and also lazy) have slowed that down, but I still want to do it. I do not want to wait until deadline. When they day ends though I want it to be a natural "There isn't much left to do today" end to the day not a "blah everyone's lurking" end.

Now that I'm back from my V/LA I'm going right back on

V/LA for the next two days

. Sorry about this, but my plans have been...weird.

Jase · Post Post #412 (ISO) » Mon May 16, 2011 6:56 pm

Well ok so I looked back at c-worl from D1, and there isn't much there the reasons I have to lynch him are, that was a really really bad hammer, I had just been talking about scum doing what c-worl did which I think may have given him the idea, scum were pretty much guaranteed to have been on the L wagon and the most obvious place to look is that hammer. All said I'm content with a c-worl lynch, but I'm not content with the lack of competing wagons/information today. Since nobody else did much scum hunting outside of sheeping along with the C-worl wagon I guess the falls to me. When I get back from V/LA (or before maaaaaybe) I'm gonna sit the hell down and actually do that analysis on UP, red, and me=w that I've been stalling on. Might throw in some others too if anyone catches my eye, but I'll cross that bridge when I come to it. Let's not end the day ok? I want some real discussion. Even if I have to drive it forward personally.

redtail896 · Post Post #413 (ISO) » Tue May 17, 2011 11:32 am

tarsonisocelot wrote:redtail/SC: I didn't get anything much from SC. redtail started off by providing a post giving reads on all players with a couple of justifications for each, which is good but all the reads contined in it were decidedly safe. Next posts are made of questions, some useful others not. Gets defensive very easily.
I dislike this post:
VOTE: C-Worl

The hammer was scummy scummy scummy. There's no way around that. And his content beyond that is not fantastic (certainly not exceptionally townie).
If we agree not to lynch C-Worl for this, I'm still going back to TO, based on supreme IIoA and general lack of scumhunting.

And not because he wants to lynch me. It seems like an attempt to see how easily he could shift the wagon from his buddy onto someone else. Verdict: Leaning scum.

Having seen multiple people commenting on this post, let me explain. The attention was never to "give me an out" if the group decided C-Worl wasn't scummy. I clearly thought C-Worl was scummy. The purpose of that was to say that TO was next on my scumlist for reasons given.

Now, TO has mostly moved beyond those reasons. Thus, as others have also done, I'm inclined to move TO more towards the town side.

tarsonisocelot · Post Post #414 (ISO) » Tue May 17, 2011 1:01 pm

Jase wrote:Well ok so I looked back at c-worl from D1, and there isn't much there the reasons I have to lynch him are, that was a really really bad hammer, I had just been talking about scum doing what c-worl did which I think may have given him the idea, scum were pretty much guaranteed to have been on the L wagon and the most obvious place to look is that hammer. All said I'm content with a c-worl lynch, but I'm not content with the lack of competing wagons/information today. Since nobody else did much scum hunting outside of sheeping along with the C-worl wagon I guess the falls to me. When I get back from V/LA (or before maaaaaybe) I'm gonna sit the hell down and actually do that analysis on UP, red, and me=w that I've been stalling on. Might throw in some others too if anyone catches my eye, but I'll cross that bridge when I come to it. Let's not end the day ok? I want some real discussion. Even if I have to drive it forward personally.

Are you going to look into just ISO's or also associations?
Post as you go along and when I have time I'll do some of what hasn't yet been posted.

LA: Sunday through Monday, then Thursday through Monday - I'll be able to get online but won't have time for in-depth posts due to a heavy courseload

bvoigt · Post Post #415 (ISO) » Tue May 17, 2011 2:53 pm

Uncle Pain wrote:
bvoigt
: What do you think about yabbaguy and his play? How can you explain that everyone else sees me town but you see me scummy? Why don’t you vote me or redtail896? Why do you think my ISO #16 is distancing from [L]’s town flip when in the same post I give my reasons why I still supported the lynch? How can you say that I (and no one else) set up a Day 2 lynch when I was neither the only one nor the first one to mention the scumminess of C-Worl’s hammer? Do you see the WIFOMness of your C-Worl-town argument? Also, aren’t you sheeping Jase’s suspicion case against redtail896 and me? And off-topic: does your nickname stem from some German surname?

(I'll answer the quicker questions first.) I didn't really pay much attention to yabbaguy, TBH. I think most people are seeing the wallposts without looking at the underlying motivations. Yabba's vote was actually on redtail, so I'll keep it there for now. And yep, Voigt is my last name, and I'm of German descent.

Uncle Pain wrote:I’m angry, C-Worl. This was unnecessary! Quoted for the friggin truth:

redtail896 wrote:C-Worl, why did you hammer? Jase clearly explained reasons that you shouldn't hammer. We have replacements catching up. We want to hear more of TO's thoughts. We have time. This isn't prolonging for the sake of prolonging, we have things we want to get done.

I really don’t know how to interpret this hammer as pro-town.
IGMEOY C-Worl
.

And in case I’m misunderstood: I stood behind the wagon, the lynch looked good. I grant C-Worl the wish and explain my case against [L] because I realize that my points are distributed over several posts:

The “lay of the land” statement: a bold gambit that was quickly revealed as a lie for little purpose. The reason [L] tried this was to create discussion, which looked
really
unbelievable after yabbaguy and Jase already pulled of retroactively justified discussion sparking and got beaten for it subsequently. Even as town [L] should have realized that this was just stupid to do. Refer to #125/#127.

“her weak cases against Surprise_Carcinogen and tarsonisocelot, for a general lack of suspicions and for ignoring the bandwagons on Jase and StefanB without giving reasons.”
(#141).

The scum↔town debate about her play: while I see how this can truly be meant as a reason for her play, I usually don’t buy such things and neither did I in this game. Putting aside that I don’t like using meta as a ground for reasoning, it’s also very convenient for scum, town should never have to use this as a means to properly defend. Not that most of her play wasn’t really helping town, she even admitted to not wanting to play townie. Playing pro-town is most basic thing I expect from any pro-town player. Refer to #194/#218/#221/#246.

I’m in V/LA now until Sunday evening.

Distancing probably isn't that accurate, but it certainly reads like moving from one mislynch to the next. I remember others saying that the hammer was a bad move, but I don't remember anyone else actually calling C-Worl scummy for it.

And yeah, the C-Worl argument is WIFOM. But, Occam's Razor. And to me, his most obvious motivation is not that of scum.

imaginality wrote:Hammering was daft, nothing to add to that. Though I'm not giving up hope on [L] still being scum with C-Worl a buddy.

One random thing I noticed. Why did you say that hammering in that situation made them likely to be buddies?

tarsonisocelot wrote:
Uncle Pain wrote:
About my defending thing, let me rephrase it as “I didn’t intend to defend him”. Yes, I actually do defend him by criticising arguments against him. My motivation however was and is not to rid him of attacks/attackers but to check out the ones attacking him because of the reasons they gave. At last Zdenek gave me some usable answer to my question.
Of course you are free to believe in any connection between redtail896 and me and I find it important that you at least consider it; ignoring clues doesn’t help town. Still, I’d like to state that, to my current knowledge, I’m not affiliated with him.

Scumpoints for UnclePain.

Agreed. I'm not sure exactly how to explain it, though.

bvoigt · Post Post #416 (ISO) » Tue May 17, 2011 2:54 pm

I promise, most of my posts are not walls.

Powerrox93 · Post Post #417 (ISO) » Tue May 17, 2011 4:50 pm

Votecount 2.9

Updated as of post #416

C-Worl (5) - crazypianist1116, redtail896, Uncle Pain, RangeroftheNorth, Me=Weird
redtail896 (2) - Zdenek, bvoigt

Not voting (4) - Jase, C-Worl, tarsonisocelot, imaginality

If there's a mistake let me know.
11 Alive == 6 to Lynch && 6 to No-Lynch

C-Worl

will be lynched at deadline if votes doesn't change

V/LA

Jase: Until May 19
Me=Weird: until Thursday May 19th
tarsonisocelot: 22-23 May + 27-30 May

Deadline

May 30 17:00 CEST

C-Worl · Post Post #418 (ISO) » Tue May 17, 2011 10:26 pm

Prod dodge.

Uncle Pain · Post Post #419 (ISO) » Tue May 17, 2011 11:08 pm

tarsonisocelot wrote:Scumpoints for UnclePain.

crazypianist1116 wrote:Uncle Pain has started losing his town status. The various scummy interjections have hurt as noted in previous posts.

bvoigt wrote:
tarsonisocelot wrote:Scumpoints for UnclePain.

Agreed. I'm not sure exactly how to explain it, though.

Care to explain this to me? Why is it scummy to explain my thoughts or to step back from a statement I realized was wrong?

Jase wrote:All said I'm content with a c-worl lynch, but I'm not content with the lack of competing wagons/information today. Since nobody else did much scum hunting outside of sheeping along with the C-worl wagon I guess the falls to me.

Actually, there are/were the wagon on tarsonisocelot and redtail896 – and you’re right, they haven’t been investigated as much as they should have been. I find myself guilty of this tunnelling as well.

As it seems, tarsonisocelot is viewed as a recovering townie by now after her lack of real participation on Day 1. As Me=Weird stated, her #386 was indeed a substantial post: she suspects C-Worl and redtail896 the most. While her case on C-Worl is pretty obvious, she doesn’t vote him so that Day 2 is prolonged. This is basically a town move and falls in line with Jase’s behaviour but to be honest it’s also easy for scum to pretend this so I say it’s a null tell.

tarsonisocelot wrote:Prox-slot: Null due to non-contribution. Slight town-lean because surely at least one of them would have been more interested if the slot was scum.

I don’t really like this one. She ignores the odd behaviour coming from that slot and implies that scum would have been more active → WIFOM. Well surprise, lurking is actually a good scum move, so I even tend to put the lurking issue on the scummier side. Unfortunately, RangeroftheNorth currently is no better. So I wonder what is so townie about this slot, tarsonisocelot?

The redtail896 case, as far as I see it, revolves around three things:

the prepared vote switch from C-Worl to tarsonisocelot once it looks more promising (#319)
the over-sensitive reaction to [L]’s question (#208)
the alleged sheeping of popular votes in his first analysis post (#188)

I already stated my hesitance towards the second point. The first one indeed holds water, I’d like to hear from redtail896 some elaboration about it. I’m not sure about the third one, though; his post comes to me as genuine, especially because he voted tarsonisocelot to investigate her more instead of just going for the most scummy one. As scum, it would’ve been easier to do the latter.

Any notes from anyone on these cases?

tarsonisocelot · Post Post #420 (ISO) » Wed May 18, 2011 1:44 am

Uncle Pain wrote:
Of course you are free to believe in any connection between redtail896 and me and I find it important that you at least consider it; ignoring clues doesn’t help town. Still, I’d like to state that, to my current knowledge, I’m not affiliated with him.

This pair of sentences. I really don't like them. Why would someone say things in this manner as town? (I'd like an answer from UnclePain as well as any other ideas people have.)

The read I gave for Prox-slot is null, with a slight caveat that I think it likely that >=1/3 players that replace out after being very inactive would find a scum role or a PR interesting enough to put in the minimum amount of effort to stay in the game. The slot itself has been inactive largely because those assigned to it appear to not have attempted to play, and has yet to provide material so my slight caveat is all I have to go on. If you think you can make a scum case on it (not just a lurk-case) then please do so.

imaginality · Post Post #421 (ISO) » Wed May 18, 2011 2:57 am

Ok, caught up. First, notes taken verbatim as I wrote them during my reread of the last few pages:

Spoiler: notes from re-read

My current reads:

Scum
.
.
C-Worl - the first few pages of today really read as scum rather than town. I was suspicious of andrew94 on Day1, too. And the hammer is of course the biggest point here.
.
bvoigt - see notes for some reasons. Looking back on D1, I think he's been given too much towncredit for the opening gambit, which, while I can see wasn't scummy, could have been a prepared opening by scum as much as by town.
.
Rangerofthenorth - there's not a lot to go on, but at this stage in the game that's somewhat telling in itself. Ranger's got a lot to do to make up for the combined impression the previous inhabitants of this slot have made. It's mostly a lurkcase but we're well into Day 2, continued lurkiness looks increasingly suspect. And my earlier comment in #249 made some other points:

imaginality 249 wrote:Prox(Mist(GroupThink)) - I didn't like the way Mist7676 joined the StefanB wagon in 143. And avoiding commenting on [L] and SurpriseCarcinogen in his reads, then delaying (and avoiding) answering Uncle Pain's question about them, is suspicious in my eyes. Sign of scum wanting to see how the town's opinion lies before answering? Prox's first post doesn't inspire me with any greater confidence.

.
.
.
Me=Weird - swaying here. My head says town but I have a gut feeling I could be missing something.
redtail896 - not one of my strongest suspects, but seeing more possibilities here than with the others below
.
.

Zdenek - a bit quiet (I know, I'm one to talk) but his posts read well
crazypianist1116 - mostly liking her posts
UnclePain - the "we're not associated" line is the one thing that sticks out to me, pretty obv-town otherwise in my opinion
tarsonisocelot - playing much better now and reading very genuinely
Jase - aggressive, accurate points
.
.
Town

I'm happy to lynch C-Worl today, though per Jase's comment, let's not do it yet, especially since some of us have missed various chunks of the day. I'm particularly keen to hear more from Rangerofthenorth.

Uncle Pain · Post Post #422 (ISO) » Wed May 18, 2011 3:41 am

tarsonisocelot

: I said it because, well, it’s just like that. I can’t and certainly won’t blame anyone for looking for scummy things about me. I wouldn’t hesitate to look for clues about others myself, so why should I attack anyone for doing this on me? This is what this game is about. When I wrote the first of these two sentences, I felt that it could be misunderstood as a confession about a link to redtail896 so I made the statement that I don’t know anything about him. The “to my current knowledge” part then occurred to me: if he flips town, I will know that we are (then were) in the same boat.
Actually, I found it a bit relieving to see that someone may finally have found something scummy about me because – since I don’t feel like an expert at this game¹ – a pure town read from all of you just puts me in a position of pressure where I feel I have to keep being the towniest of all. No one plays perfectly, everyone makes mistakes now and then and I’m no exception.

¹This doesn’t mean that I think I’m a VI. I just feel I still have a lot of experience to gain before calling myself a good player.

bvoigt wrote:I remember others saying that the hammer was a bad move, but I don't remember anyone else actually calling C-Worl scummy for it.

Well, if you count actual votes as well, there are already eight people calling C-Worl scummy: the ones voting him, plus Jase, tarsonisocelot and imaginality (as stated in their posts).

Powerrox93 · Post Post #423 (ISO) » Wed May 18, 2011 6:26 am

RangeroftheNorth has been prodded

Zdenek · Post Post #424 (ISO) » Wed May 18, 2011 7:37 am

Crazypianist is looking worse to me after 406:

CP wrote:
Something weird strikes me about zdenek and me=weird. I need to go back and reread to see their actions more clearly.

A weak attack against me and me=weird.

CP wrote:
Jase, why are you not voting C-Worl?

A question whose answer would be obvious if he was reading the thread.

Jase wrote:
Well ok so I looked back at c-worl from D1, and there isn't much there the reasons I have to lynch him are, that was a really really bad hammer, I had just been talking about scum doing what c-worl did which I think may have given him the idea,

The idea that you saying something is scummy gave scum the idea to go and do it seems ridiculous to me.

Imaginality wrote:
406 from crazypianist I like.

Why?