In the Court of the Gods (Game Over)

[DTMaster]

Immediate responses
1. Spy/Hito is the hope diamond the Crymearivier slot? My view on that slot is: I just can't get a read on that darn slot since there hasn't been a substantial post. I just want to kill it with fire due to paranoia. If it is that slot, I'm not sure how you guys can call a scum read off nothing. It's more like: there's no read this is suuuper sketchy. I prefer having more defined reads.

2. Benmage. So it's illogical for someone to trust a town read on the fact that you could be wrong? That applies to every read though. Oddly enough during this post you missed Andruis' whole masonry speech. Were you supporting that Andruis could be buddying DGB (pre-town read)?

3. Benmage, your statement about "skill level" and scumminess makes no sense. There's no co-relation with skill level and alignment, only with our persecution of that player. If someone is a bad player, that doesn't make them scum. This argument is super weak and lacks the normal critical thought that I've come to know the Benmage from before.

Bad players often look scummy. They aren't always scum.

4. Corvuis, I don't mind the theory. I expect though once you read through everyone you apply it (spec DRK since that's your focus). Prepare your meta references for comparisons though.

Also the keywords will be obvious post-Death me or when I choose to claim it.

Also I assume that you didn't read most of my posts considering that Tajo defense and Feysal attacks are the core to my posts. I dislike how you narrowed down on my Fishy Fish comments specifically in the midst of my capslock induced rage, only if you did read my other posts.

5. DRK I'm a bit sad that all you took out of my reads was a town-read on me. I didn't get any comments from youuuuu agreeing/disagreeing/etc.

6. You know that feeling when you get when your read might be wrong. I read Feysal's response to Mina. A few things stood up

a. Feysal commented that he wanted to keep a vote on record. This to me is quite pro-town for VC analysis.
b. The talk about "retrospective view on his actions" is the weird thing. You know I could totally see the view where scum is admitting to his faults, or a player trying to improve his over all game play.
c. The meta reference is a critical approach to look at Jack
d. But there's too many Null reads and lots of DGB and Andruis ego stroking which is wishy washy after the nth time reading it.

Gah I'm going to take a break and mull things over.

[Benmage]

DTM, thats the thing tho. My biggest handicap in this game(mafia in general) is reading VI's/the inexperienced. Because they constantly commit logically flawed actions and generally act scummy. Regardless of alignment. It's like a policy lynch for me.

TMH was scummy, illogical (I personally dislike him for other things as well).... I don't think of him as a valued player, and don't want him around even if he was town. But here's the kicker....he could just as easily have flipped scum.

I'm willing to give his replacement, whose opened well, some time and to look elsewhere for the moment.

[Equinox]

Phone posting FTW. Trying to quote stuff on this is a pain in the butt, so please bear with me. I can link later if necessary.

Sorry I'm all over the place. Trying to get this all in before intermission ends.

Also, holy hot damn, page 32. Later.

DeathRowKitty: You mentioned that you asked for Lady Lambdadelta's opinion of the Jack-Nobody Special interaction because s/he essentially ignored it in his/her comments. Why only Lady Lambdadelta? IIRC, there were others who didn't comment either (e.g., Equinox).

I think Corvuus skimmed DTMaster's posts. It can't be the Kool-Aid. (Alas, I am ninja'd by the man himself. Har har.)

DTMaster: I disagree with you about Feysal leaving a voting record to be pro-town. You do that when you're suspicious of the person, not after when you're all, "Eh, he's not scummy anymore, but I'll drop this here now so y'all don't accuse me of never voting." He sounds like he got caught doing something wrong and scrambling to correct it.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

DeathRowKitty: You mentioned that you asked for Lady Lambdadelta's opinion of the Jack-Nobody Special interaction because

s/he

essentially ignored it in

his/her

comments. Why only Lady Lambdadelta? IIRC, there were others who didn't comment either (e.g., Equinox).

I'mma hurt you Equi.

[zoraster]

Day 1 Vote Count

Andrius ( 1 )

Fishythefish,

(L - 9 )

populartajo ( 2 )

DrippingGoofball,

hitogoroshi,

(L - 8 )

hitogoroshi ( 0 )

(L - 10 )

nopointinactingup ( 1 ) SpyreX,

(L - 9 )

SpyreX ( 2 ) Mina, Feysal,

(L - 8 )

Equinox ( 0 )

(L - 10 )

farside22 ( 1 ) DeathRowKitty,

(L - 9 )

Feysal ( 2 ) DTMaster, Equinox,

(L - 8 )

Mina ( 0 )

(L - 10 )

Corvuus ( 2 ) Lady Lambdadelta,

Nobody Special,

(L - 8 )

Benmage ( 0 )

(L - 10 )

DeathRowKitty ( 6 ) populartajo, Jack, nopointinactingup, farside22, Benmage, Andrius,

(L - 4 )

Jack ( 0 )

(L - 10 )

Lady Lambdadelta ( 0 )

(L - 10 )

DTMaster ( 0 )

(L - 10 )

No Lynch ( 0 )

(L - 9 )

Not Voting ( 1 ) Corvuus,
Total Votes ( 18 )

Deadline: February 19th at 17:59 EDT
With 18 able to vote, 10 needed to lynch.

Isn't this against the spirit of the whole "If it looks like a vote, it counts" rule? Sounds to me like this rule just encourages voting gambits :s (or accidental voting "gambits")

This is a good point. Fine then. The policy is now this:

If you don't vote on a new line, the risk is yours. I may see it. I may not.

Also, sorry for the delay in getting a new vote up. Lots of stuff going on this weekend making it hard to focus on any one thing on MS for long.

[Corvuus]

well DTmaster and Equinox are interesting.

I never said I read DTmaster. So i'm not sure how you guys are leaping ahead or assuming "Corvuus is skimming DTmaster" since i haven't even read everything by any means. I read the players I specified and general posts around it to check general context and DTmaster posted at least twice (i'm not sure if there is more since i haven't read him completely) on how if fishy is scum god, then he should shorten deadlines. If he is scum and fishy is scum as well, then this makes no sense since he could either daytalk or whatever and it is a pretty stupid gambit; if he is town, it also doesn't really make sense unless he is hoping a fishy-scum God would just reveal himself but then why give advice to scum and how would it help, etc.?. Either way, I saw no reason at all for this unless a specific gambit and I was reading DGB and I didn't see a 'strong current' reason for his declaration (which fits a DGB-scum profile) regardless of whatever DTmaster might have done 'earlier' and if it is early game, why did DGB just declare it now and in terms of relative closeness of posting, it didn't make sense.

So yes, don't worry about me reading, taking notes, etc. For anyone who has played with me before, they know i will post walls of text regardless and that i do read "everything" eventually.
----------

DRK is not my focus.

I will obviously question your motives in stating that he is my focus since 1. I'm not voting him, 2. I asked question(s) for the people voting for me and I asked DRK since he is lead wagon so I should decide whether to vote with him or pursue someone else. At the very least my focus is on LLD, Ben and NS as well.

I will iso you now DTmaster and you only only have 14 posts.

First of all, in DTmaster iso #1, you state that DGB is the most powerful of all gods late game and that you will keep an eye on him (DGB).

DGB just declared you as town (without giving reasons until I asked him) and along with your own statements (regarding fishy-scum God) the question is why is DTmaster's first impulse is to question Corvuus for asking DGB for a reason and not DTmaster asking DGB for a reason? Generally, town would either question someone who blatantly calls you town like that without specific reasoning or depending on position of the declaring player, may choose to ignore it given specific set of circumstances (which ironically, DGB being an immortal God kind of falls under).

And you have a problem with me questioning why in the world would you say something like Fishy-scum God should shorten deadline?

Well, whatever, despite this interaction, I think you have a higher chance of being town than scum right now due to your posts/multiple gambits and regardless of how much I may dislike what I read from you, you think it is hilarious and would do it as town and town is better off letting you do what you like since it can be beneficial to town while also leading to your death.

I'll have to iso Equinox and read a bit more but I guess you being on a phone explains you 'parroting/ninjad' what DTmaster said despite it not really making sense. That will have to wait for a few bit though.

Corvuus

[farside22]

Reading Corv's post I'm doing a complete 180 and calling that slot scum.
You know when you see someone trying to build a case and it looks like it's full of uncertainty and using mostly meta argument about someone being scum.
well that's how Corv's post read to me.

[Equinox]

I'll have to iso Equinox and read a bit more but I guess you being on a phone explains you 'parroting/ninjad' what DTmaster said despite it not really making sense. That will have to wait for a few bit though.

For the record, that wasn't a parrot; I was reading back a few pages before the performance started, saw your post, wrote that, and then the lights went out and I put away the phone. An hour or so later, it was intermission, so I took my phone out and continued reading to see that DTMaster got to you first.

Right. Page 32 and now, apparently, 33.

[DTMaster]

1. Corvious: I have an issue with the fishy response because you failed to comment on anything else. Like I said since you've just replaced in I'd suspect you read my 2 posts at the top of the page from where you replaced in, rather then just read me and particularly focused on my one post. You've gave an impression that you skimmed my posts by making an opinion of me. Hence why I mentioned the above scenario, and directed you to comment on my full cases.

2. In terms of volume, you must account that I'm a replacement like yourself.

3.
I see that DGB's actions in the QTs confirmed by the priesthood supports a town-DGB read. Likewise the discussion in my QT support a NS town read. The only, only reason why I would give a ~10% chance that fishy could be town and my DGB read is wrong is that Fishy by his role to shorten the deadline hasn't been used. So since my pre-game notes, the possibly of DGB-scum diminished due to other actions and I've assigned her a pro-town stamp. Role merits alone, she can end the game prematurely by granting scum double voting, Action wise, I'd be willing to call her town.

I have no reason to question people for their town reads unless I disagree with it.

I am more interested in finding scum reads and advancing my cases

. If I had to question everyone who called me town I would question the entire town list because they started off with a Zang-scum/lurker read and switched off after my posts. I applaud the critical nature of questioning unreasoned reads but

If you think that DGB is scummy because she didn't give strong reasons you advance the case

.

If you read everything from start to finish you'd see that the initial analysis points to dangerous DGB, not a town/scum DGB call. I later developed a town DGB call.

If I were scum and I had fishy's powers (you are immortal, you safe from all kills and lynches,) I would claim scum and shorten the deadline. Then I would cause chaos by contributing to wagons, I would make people paranoid by hammering my scum buddies if necessary and I would be Socratic. I would play the town with my votes, and making my votes unreadable on which wagons are scum or town, and making people be paranoid about my hammers.

And in all of that since deadlines get shorten to 48 hours after day 1, if I cause no lynch scenarios then I've given my faction free NKs since town failed to lynch in 48 hours. You know that kind of thing. As an immortal scum role, I'd play aggressive. The only scum-god role that would play cautious is DGB and NS' role has no advantages since has scum if he controls the hammer he already has it without freezing the votes.

I'm only stating my opinion in the Fishy-scum scenario. :p Fishy-scum should shorten it if he is scum. It's like total win for scum if he did that. Hell, day 1 could have been over now with Fishy-fish and, and! we'd be floundering around. Since the god who I suspect is scum is not doing the most optimal, easiest, scum ploy

I question my read on Fishy-fish

.

4. I find it odd that DRK is not your focus since you're doing heavy "meta" and "motivation/inflection" analysis in the game. You found a contradiction in DRK's posting and started to develop this into a read (which you argued something a kin to he's being coached). That's odd. Who is your primary scum hunting target, and why? Your biggest "case" is on the guy "who you're not focused on", and "that you defended a great deal about your methods" on.

5. As well, is there more to what you dislike about me in regards to "not addressing DGB"? You imply there is more, but don't mention it outside of your over all town read due to my gambits. I note though that you mentioned multiple gambits, but I've only done 1 which is a day kill.

The other was a soft claim of information to the person who I PMed via NS. I'd hardly call that a gambit. It's ensuring that my hidden suspicions are revealed post-death.

[Jack]

lol, did corvuss just try and call out dtm for having only 14 posts?

[DTMaster]

Equinox: I see the view point. Hence why I want to mull it over. The weakest points about the vote is that Feysal addressed Tajo about it and voted commenting about Benmage and his lack of vote being bad. It's probably the lack of sleep but I'm going to mull over the points again and do some serious rereading.

[DTMaster]

Lol I've done more in 14 posts then a few players here. I am content :p

[Jack]

mmm, I'm licking my chops over the concept of tmh being scum, that would even be worth a reread.

[populartajo]

post tomorrow

[Lady Lambdadelta]

DTM, think of it this way. If you simplify things, scum has only 2 motivations in doing an action. Either they:

Want to cast suspicion on someone/thing/area of play

OR

They want to divert suspicion from themselves.

This logic can be applied to all statements, actions, votes and kills made by scum.

Therefor, when searching for a reasoning behind the question

Why wouldn't Fishy shorten deadlines if they were scum

apply it to those two logical reasonings.

The first is invalid in this case. It's totally centered around Fishy.

So, to determine if any scum intent can exist... Can Fishy divert attention from himself by making the deadlines good for town? The answer is

Yes

. You proved it yourself.

You questioned your scum read on Fishy because he wasn't playing to the obvious scum tactic. Therefor, he has avoided a certain amount of suspicion.

The existence of this alone means that this level of reasoning is possible for me.

What do you think everyone?

[DrippingGoofball]

post tomorrow

Hey I saw you posting lolcats on /b/, lurker!

[DrippingGoofball]

If I were scum and I had fishy's powers (you are immortal, you safe from all kills and lynches,) I would claim scum and shorten the deadline. Then I would cause chaos by contributing to wagons, I would make people paranoid by hammering my scum buddies if necessary and I would be Socratic. I would play the town with my votes, and making my votes unreadable on which wagons are scum or town, and making people be paranoid about my hammers.

That's how I'd play it, too, I mentioned that early in the the game.

But then I reconsidered, because as long as Fishy feels he can harvest information from his followers and is making progress, he is motivated to maintain the charade that he is town.

In other words, Fishy's followers should look very devoted and on the bring of claiming in the next QT post, haha. If I were vanilla I sure would fakeclaim something grand to draw the scum NK just in case Fishy is scum, hahahahaha. But that's me. DrippingGambits.[/color][/b]

[hitogoroshi]

Tajo and DGB are interesting in that each have a specific meta/interaction based on whatever their alignment is. Leaning tajo-town, DGB could be town or scum but slightly more likely to be scum since DGB voting tajo doesn't make strong sense if DGB-town.

How does DGB voting Tajo not make sense if DGB is town?

I agree with dtm that fishy could be the scum god.

DTM's reasoning was on why he thinks Fishy

isn't

the scum-god.

Also, I'll repost this:

@Jack: I'm curious as to how Andrius is one of your top two scumreads.

Anyway, I mentioned earlier that DTM has raised some novel points I wanted to mull on. His point about Fishy-scum using his power right away has a lot of merit to it. Quick days would hurt. NS has been showing many signs of scumgoditude (his initial refusal to set up QT's and general reservedness being chief among them) and all in all, NS as the scumgod makes a ton of sense.

...but if NS is the scumgod, TMH is almost certainly town. He was forcing the dichotomy between NS and Jack far beyond rational limits. This makes plenty of sense if it's a false dichotomy and your scumgod is fishy. But if Fishy is a town god, the only interpretations that makes sense with TMH-scum are DGB as the scumgod (which she's not) or if that was TMH bussing his scumbuddy Jack (in which case I will eat every hat in every universe).

This also makes Tajo scum a little less likely, though his connection with fishy-scumgod is certainly more tenuous than TMH's. Currently having a little chat with DGB on that matter; I'll get back to you.

P.Edit: DGB and LLD both bring up a counter-case to DTM's ideas. I see where they're coming from; all the same, I think the minimum deadlines are so short that the claiming power play might still be stronger than keeping up the charade for Fishy-scum. And this is coming from someone who really does understand the sheer power two 5-strong masonries has.

[Jack]

749.5

[DrippingGoofball]

Another thing.

If Fishy made himself obv-scum, the other two gods would be confirmed townies.

And claims, trust, unicorns and rainbow would flood the townie's QTs.

Much to the dismay of the deadline Nazi.

[farside22]

first off, love the new activity overview button. As a mod I love it to look for those not posting at certain times. As a player it helps to see those not posting much and see if they are like that everywhere.
I see the topic if fishy is scum or not is coming up.
I'm thinking NS is more scummy but things fishy said to me in the QT make no sense as town. Every instict I have when I chat with him sounds manufactured.
Example.
I asked fishy why he wasn't pushing things since he is imortal and has not fear of dying like DGB.
I can't use his exact words but the sum up is this:
He is concerned with making mistakes in the game. He feels the burden on his shoulders since he is going to be in the game for the long haul and being a god gives him a burden of being really good at something that is hard to live up to.

This sounded incredibly odd to me for an answer. I don't see why a God would have fear or any of these issues he mentions.

[DeathRowKitty]

I'll get to other things later, but I would prefer it if we didn't discuss which god is scum. Not only is it useless for the time being since we can't lynch or kill them, I would go so far as to say it's harmful. Let's say for sake of argument that fishy is the scum god and everyone suddenly comes out and calls him scum. He suddenly has no reason to keep up the charade of acting town. I would prefer our gods have a reason to at least try to appear pro-town for as long as possible.

[SpyreX]

Hey farside you never answered that question about the actual state of my reads.

I'm having special quality time with DGB again FINALLY.

DTM is pushin real hard to beat Equinox in the town 9000. I LOVE seeing a race there godspeed young bucks.

[Andrius]

I'll get to other things later, but I would prefer it if we didn't discuss which god is scum. Not only is it useless for the time being since we can't lynch or kill them, I would go so far as to say it's harmful. Let's say for sake of argument that fishy is the scum god and everyone suddenly comes out and calls him scum. He suddenly has no reason to keep up the charade of acting town. I would prefer our gods have a reason to at least try to appear pro-town for as long as possible.

Did you even READ DGB's latest post?
GOD.
WE GET CONFIRMED MASONRIES IF WE OUT ONE SCUMGOD AS SCUM.

[DeathRowKitty]

Use your best judgment. Share whatever the hell you want with your god or goddess. Once again, let's assume fishy is scum and everyone suddenly decides, "oh hey, fishy is scum." Is having your god confirmed and having 2 RL day deadlines for the rest of the game better than thinking your god is town and having normal deadlines?