In the Court of the Gods (Game Over)

[populartajo]

tajo:

1. DGB asked in the QTs : "would you sacrifice yourself as a VT for a PR?" According to her this was a test and the right answer would be : ""I wont claim but if I were vanilla I'd be delighted to sacrifice myself to preserve a power role.

"
If everyone says I would sacrifice myself for a PR how is it rolefishing? She didn't ask for a PR and no one stated they claimed a PR so your point is.....???

it is rolefishing in the sense that people would unintentionally state they are vanillas, therefore they are not PRs, therefore scum would increase their likeliness of hitting PRs by avoiding vanilla shots.

[populartajo]

regarding QTs: I think they are extremely useful if you have town reads on your gods. I think they are pretty useless if you think your god is scum and your god thinks you are scum.

people thinking somehow QTs have scumhunting magic on them seriously think about it, Im of the idea that as much information town has in THIS game thread, its better for taking better decisions in the long run. Yeah, you can be the top scumhunter you think you are and try to catch your god in your QT but seriously, if you die or if you get in a 1-1 NO-U with your god in day 4, then what practical purpose does the QTs have?

[populartajo]

I vote stupid town on Tajo.

look at this scumbag trying to buddy up with me

despite im attacking him he think im stupid town, this is not a town reaction, fyi.

reposting this because this is top of the page

Confirm Vote: DRK.

[DrippingGoofball]

@DGB: what makes you believe that if tajo flips scum that automatically puts fishy as the scum God?

Tajo made the following evaluations of the gods, which fit scum strategic reasons:

-

NS

, who was widely considered scumgod and

needed friends

:

town

-

DGB

, who was not widely suspected, and there

needed more suspicion

:

scum

-

FF

: who was not widely suspected, but who

didn't need attention drawn to him either way

:

neutral

In my own evaluation, tajo parroted an illogical conclusion from Jack: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 2#p2766222 - in fact, Jack should have deduced that I'm town for trying to downplay suspicion on a competing god, not that I'm scum. But it's Jack, so... what do you expect.

[farside22]

tajo:

1. DGB asked in the QTs : "would you sacrifice yourself as a VT for a PR?" According to her this was a test and the right answer would be : ""I wont claim but if I were vanilla I'd be delighted to sacrifice myself to preserve a power role.

"
If everyone says I would sacrifice myself for a PR how is it rolefishing? She didn't ask for a PR and no one stated they claimed a PR so your point is.....???

it is rolefishing in the sense that people would unintentionally state they are vanillas, therefore they are not PRs, therefore scum would increase their likeliness of hitting PRs by avoiding vanilla shots.

I noticed you completely ignored my second question which even you know puts a bit dent in your point.

[populartajo]

or I could be one of the few townie with balls to express opinions:

NS is obviously stupid but is he scum? a scum god would go from the go and ask people for their powers? or would he be more calculating and charming as DGB to gain adepts? Thats where a lot of people fail at scumhnting: they evaluate the action BUT NOT THE MOTIVATION.

FF is obv neutral, Id like anyone in this thread to say otherwise. You can make up millions of sensational theories but you lack solid reasoning.

BTW, that conclusion from Jack is quite logical. Id like you to explain why its not logical.

[populartajo]

tajo:

1. DGB asked in the QTs : "would you sacrifice yourself as a VT for a PR?" According to her this was a test and the right answer would be : ""I wont claim but if I were vanilla I'd be delighted to sacrifice myself to preserve a power role.

"
If everyone says I would sacrifice myself for a PR how is it rolefishing? She didn't ask for a PR and no one stated they claimed a PR so your point is.....???

it is rolefishing in the sense that people would unintentionally state they are vanillas, therefore they are not PRs, therefore scum would increase their likeliness of hitting PRs by avoiding vanilla shots.

I noticed you completely ignored my second question which even you know puts a bit dent in your point.

what question are you talking about? sorry if ive missed it, there are too many things directed at me.

[populartajo]

you mean this one?

If everyone says yes then DGB (if scum) thinks everyone in here squad is VT, this hurts the town how?

if DGBscum knows all her group is VT, then when her scumteam decides the kill, then they would increase their likeliness of hitting PRs, since they would be avoiding the VTs in the DGB neighborhood.

[farside22]

2. Tajo realized this could be a potential attempt to rolefish for VTs as some idiotic people could go on and claim VT that could sacrifice for PRs. He attacks DGB for this.

If everyone says yes then DGB (if scum) thinks everyone in here squad is VT, this hurts the town how?

[farside22]

Also before I forget tajo while you are on your DGB is scum rant.
Everyone else said yes to the question do you honestly believe that means they are all VT's by saying they would sacrifice themselves to help a PR?

[populartajo]

someone distracted, someone who trusts DGB ignoring she could be scum, etc, its possible someone could go on and uninteionally claim VT.

even more, to a seasoned player like DGB, the way you answer, the words you use, the tone, etc should be enough to find out if you are VT or not.

THATS what is bothering me about DGB.

[populartajo]

lets assume this possible scenario:

DGB: hey would you sacrifice as a VT to help a PR?
DISTRACTED FOLLOWER 1: mmm, if I were a VT, I would.

That kind of answer indicates to me that FOLLOWER 1 is not a VT.

DGB: hey would you sacrifice as a VT to help a PR?
"I TRUST DGB" FOLLOWER 2: yes, I will sacrifice myself for a PR if you wish my goddess.

I dont care if these scnearios actually happened, the possibilities of it happening are not low and THATS what Im fighting against now.

[Fishythefish]

So call this paranoid but here is my thought process:
Fishy created a QT saying that basically he would be not using it as much. It's like he didn't see a point to having a QT if you know what I mean.
He doesn't really use it, which bothers me a bit. I see mina stating she is putting all her thoughts down in the QT to fishy (i had meant to ask fishy what his view on Mina was, not equinox in one post I made) so far he hasn't responded. DGB is doing what I figure a good town player would do with unknown alliances in the QT.
I wonder why Fishy is asking questions in the QT that he should ask in the game, that are things I said in the game. These are my pondering thoughts with Fishy.

I have said why I won't respond to questions about my QTs, and you seemed satisfied with the answer. In my QTs, I'm generally trying to get discussion going (ours is among the worst of mine for that, as it happens). Honestly, I haven't been able to think of much to say to you - and you've hardly been pushing the conversation along. Trying to get things going is the reason I have asked you things there which seemed only marginally interesting in the thread.

Re: DGB/tajo QT. I'd say that tajo's response is a little more likely to come from scum - although his already suspecting DGB lessens that - and the other responses are more likely to come from town. It certainly isn't the cast-iron scumtell DGB is calling it. On the tajo-me link; again, I can see where DGB is coming from, but I disagree with the sense of the conclusion. I suppose this is one to argue if and when tajo flips scum.

[Fishythefish]

EBWOP: I disagree with the *strength* of the conclusion.

[Fishythefish]

@TMH: can you explain your suspicion of me any further than "gut"?

[themanhimself]

Lady lambdadelta: Don't say anything else until you answer this please, where did I ever look like I was trying to get off of the Jack bandwagon?

P-edit: Not really, and I'm not going to push that issue until I have something more solid, I just thought I would put that out there since someone commented on you.

[zoraster]

Day 1 Vote Count

Andrius ( 3 ) farside22, Jack,

Fishythefish,

populartajo ( 3 )

DrippingGoofball,

Andrius, hitogoroshi,
hitogoroshi ( 0 )
CryMeARiver ( 1 ) SpyreX,
SpyreX ( 1 ) Mina,
Equinox ( 0 )
farside22 ( 0 )
Feysal ( 1 ) CryMeARiver
Mina ( 0 )
themanhimself ( 2 ) Lady Lambdadelta,

Nobody Special,

Benmage ( 0 )
DeathRowKitty ( 1 ) populartajo,
Jack ( 2 ) themanhimself, Zang,
Lady Lambdadelta ( 0 )
Zang ( 2 ) Equinox, DeathRowKitty,
Not Voting ( 2 ) Feysal, Benmage,
Total Votes ( 18 )

Deadline: February 14th at 23:00 EDT
With 18 able to vote, 10 needed to lynch.

There was a question about area and spoiler tags. I'm okay with you using those so long as you're not trying to impersonate the mod with them and follow all the other rules.

[Mina]

This game is depressing me. The further I fall behind, the harder it is to catch up again.

Yesterday I was feeling like crap, but today I should have loads of time for this game. Right now, my problem is that I'm still playing more by gut feel and general impressions, rather than going into the nitty-gritty of people's posts and catching onto individual inconsistencies. I'm also either leaning town or ambivalent on most of the players in this game. First off, I'll explain my problems with SpyreX. Then I'll examine a few more ISOs and discuss my reads on other players in the game. Maybe I'll change my vote, depending on what I find, because SX's posts have improved somewhat since my vote, and DGB implies that he's given off a towntell in the QT.

DrippingGoofball: Do you ONLY think that SpyreX and Andrius are town because they both agreed to your hypothetical "Yeah, I'd sacrifice myself if you asked me to claim a role"? Because the "right" answer to appease you should be obvious; even on the off-chance that you asked them to fakeclaim, they'd be in no danger of a nightkill were they scum. Or is their overall behaviour in the QT very townish? (I'm asking because those were the closest things I had to scum reads; I agreed with Feysal's comment that their play had felt more like their scum play so far. If you have a reason to clear them from the suspect pool, I'd like to hear it.)

hitogoroshi: What in particular have you

liked

about SpyreX's play? (That said, I hadn't realized SpyreX had RL reasons for a decrease in activity.) Also, do you see a difference between Andrius's big rambling catch-up posts in [REDACTED] as scum and here?

Andrius: So if apparently, your only issue with SpyreX is that he was lurking...um, why exactly do you trust me? If you're looking at pure activity levels alone, I'm about ten times worse than SpyreX. You don't see anything wrong with his individual posts, other than that there haven't been many of them? But you still think he's scum?

Jack: You still haven't answered my question about the set-up. How many scum do you think there are?

Not for voting me. But for voting me without even pretending to justify (Hint: that vote is the first time my name is even mentioned). Of course, the fact that she'd be rereading and 'posting' and saw this new and awesome glut of hand-wringing SpyreX is scum guyssssss and wanted to spark the love well.

Dude, I didn't mention

anyone's

name before then. (In fact, did you even post twice between my first and second posts of the game?) If anything, that's why you should be suspecting me.

Are you really using the "voting without reasons is scummy" argument (particularly since I don't think you've once given a reason for suspecting Me = Weird, despite repeating that he's scum over and over again)? I thought I'd made it obvious in my vote-and-run that there were reasons behind my vote. (But unfortunately, Fishythefish is the only one who can corroborate that I posted a partially completed case on SpyreX in the QT--although I started second-guessing it--so you'd have to take his word for it.) Moving a vote from a townish-looking player to a suspect is more constructive than not posting anything at all. And yes, I'd have obviously been happy if that vote had sparked a bandwagon on you, because I suspected you and it might draw more of a reaction from you.

(Actually, maybe I should admit that part of why I did it was just for the comic relief value of me posting a succinct opinion for the first time in my Mafia career. But there were

also

protown motivations behind it, I swear!)

(That said, I can scratch the fact that after DEFCON 2.0, Town-SpyreX would be all over me for promising to post later and not delivering off my list of reasons to suspect SX.)

My problem with SX isn't the lurking per se (I don't think it's fair to call SpyreX a lurker this game). Fishy made a comment in the QT about how SpyreX was usually more "proactive" than this as town. I remember thinking it came a bit out of the blue, since it was in response to a post that had nothing to do with SpyreX, but I agreed with his assessment. It felt as though he didn't say anything very insightful, and his posts were filler-ish.

But he's also tripping a bell that I've seen from Scum-SpyreX before--stating things that shouldn't be obvious with blanket confidence, like "Oh, Nobody Special is the scum god. No doubt in my mind, let's pop a bullet into him. Jack is totally town, you betcha." It's subtle and hard to explain--Town SX is confident, too--but I guess it's that he doesn't show the reasoning behind his confidence. Also, other people have mentioned it, but I didn't really like the whole dancing between, "Yeah, I'm super-confident that Jack is OBVIOUSLY town" and yet repeatedly hammering that he has to die anyway. Just a few examples on what I mean:

Maybe its the simple fact that its tantamount to suicide with little gain.

Of course, its happened before but when you combine that with NS's 'play'. Which is a key point, I'm saying town.

I also am fully aware he's getting lynched in the next day or two.

Of course...there's no back and forth there.

Jack is town. Futher, lying as town (the town gambit part) makes no sense when he upped the stakes. Thus, STILL AND ALWAYS, I am against lynching him.

As this progresses, however, its obvious this needs to be dealt with one way or the other because *gasp* this is going to be the major talking point every day.

Out of the usual suspects I'd say Andrius, Zang, tmh in that order. Realistically, Jack either needs to absolutely become off the table or die and tmh's colors will shine through without issue.

Actually, something that almost psyched me out of voting SpyreX is that, on the surface, he does say multiple times that we shouldn't lynch Jack, so I'm not sure how fair it is to accuse him of softly supporting Jack's wagon. Also, he got the upper hand in his back-and-forth with Nobody Special. But I still felt as though something was off about his stance on Jack. It's just how he keeps on coming back to the fact that we need to check Jack one way or the other (without suggesting a plan as to why), when virtually everyone in this game has moved on from Jack by now. I think this quote bugged me the most:

Jack's upping the stakes makes no sense as a town gambit -

he's either telling the straight truth or scum

. Considering what we've seen from Fish and DGB, I'm thinkin its the former but I'll give it a real go in a bit

I thought it should be very obvious that Jack's claim was a gambit (IIRC, Jack has close to admitted this as well), and I don't like that SX keeps stubbornly trying to make this a Jack vs. Nobody Special dichotomy.

Also, I find it strange that although he argues that we should test Jack, he hasn't put a vote on themanhimself (even though he believes that Jack is telling the truth about NS revealing his scumbuddy to him). He keeps on saying, "Yeah, Jack is either telling the truth or scum...but he's DEFINITELY telling the truth, although it's such a pity that he's going to be lynched soo, so sad, etc.," without putting his money where his mouth is.

And yes, it often is a warning sign when multiple people have a scum read on someone, but not one person votes him.

[Mina]

Fishy, is there a reason you haven't answered farside's question about your read on me?

[DeathRowKitty]

Jack/LLL and NS follows how is NS doing with his QT? Does he talk much there?

He didn't make QTs and doesn't talk much via PM. Yeah, we have the boring god.

look at this scumbag trying to buddy up with me

despite im attacking him he think im stupid town, this is not a town reaction, fyi.

Do you even

think

before you post something? Are you

seriously

implying that the town reaction is to assume you're sum because you're attacking me? Seriously? If you were replaced by an actual alpaca whose computer literacy consisted entirely of quoting my posts and typing "lolscum", this game would be no different than it is now. I still think you're town. I assume that's the scum reaction too?

[Mina]

Wait a minute. I just noticed.

Realistically, Jack either needs to absolutely become off the table or die and tmh's colors will shine through without issue.

So let me get this straight.

You think that absolutely, 100%, either Jack OR {Nobody Special, themanhimself} is scum. Am I getting this right?

But you don't want to lynch themanhimself today because you think he'll be so easy to read that we'll figure out his alignment eventually? E.g., if he looks super-townish, then we'll know for a fact that Jack is scum?

Also, I'm just curious. Did you notice these posts by Jack:

Yes, the start of 279 is pretty absurd. Feysal says that if I had told NS it was a gambit, he would have known it was. But he knew it was regardless because he knew what he did and didn't say And for someone who goes on and on about "even with a 1/3 chance that so and so is the scum god" he dismisses the use of getting reads on one of the gods pretty quick. And all that from someone who was puffing about arguments and reason earlier.

Problem is "Pretty much the only thing we can do today is lynch Jack" is super scummy. It's the "my hands are tied!" scum excuse for a town lynch, a classic scumtell. I have suspicions that tmh always plays this way and genuinely believes things like that or I'd be voting him.

In the first, he pretty much implies it was a gambit to get a read on Nobody Special. And the second does not sound like a post from someone who knows tmh is confirmed scum.

(That said, after ISO-ing Me = Weird/CMAR...

yeah

, can't say I mind your vote too much.)

[hitogoroshi]

hitogoroshi: What in particular have you liked about SpyreX's play? (That said, I hadn't realized SpyreX had RL reasons for a decrease in activity.)

He explicitly advocates not voting Jack, I'm diggin his line of thought on M=W, and his confusion about how to resolve the Jack-TMH-NS situation seems honest. There's also the smiley face on his report card from our towniest of town Goddesses.

Also, do you see a difference between Andrius's big rambling catch-up posts in [REDACTED] as scum and here?

Yes, I do - less quality control here. Seems like scum would put less effort into generating content to keep the same level of editing, rather than vice-versa.

Jack/LLL and NS follows how is NS doing with his QT? Does he talk much there?

He didn't make QTs and doesn't talk much via PM. Yeah, we have the boring god.

[Mina]

EBWOP: Or obviously, this post.

HEY WAIT

Shouldn't the scumgod know his mortal scumpals' identity? Does that change anything?

How could Jack trick NS to 'fess scum??? Unless NS was very careless and not paying attention?

THANK YOU

ONE PERSON IS NOT BRAIN DEAD

Which probably means you're the scum god

Anyway I honestly can't figure out whether those people pushing the "lynch jack to learn about NS!" theory are scum (they should know better) or town (they should still know better) at this moment.

vote:LL

Is still scum however.

Fair enough at hito (although I disagree with the idea that a long but sloppy post =/= scummy, since some players become lazy as scum and tend to pad their posts with fluff so as to make them look more impressive; will need to check [REDACTED] to compare for myself).

He didn't make QTs and doesn't talk much via PM. Yeah, we have the boring god.

For the record, if Fishythefish is the scumgod, I am going to murder Nobody Special after the game because of how badly he's botched his role.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Hrm, now I'm thinking equinox is more confused town about the Jack situation which contrasts my earlier reads. I'm nowhere near ready to unvote Jack but I agree that LLD unovting Jack and going to me is a very, very weird move. I've seen scum pull that exact same move when they were bussing another scum and wanted to get off the bandwagon.

If it looks like the LLD lynch is where we're gonna end up further into the day I

might

consider switching my vote only if I think it could help confirm Jack as scum.

Forgive my single-mindedness but I've never had a read this solid.

This post shows you ready to unvote Jack and vote me IF I AM THE LYNCH FOR TODAY. In other words, you would have voted me if I had become an easier target than Jack.

There's your answer TMH.

As for Farside, I can confirm Mina's claim that NS doesn't talk at all to his followers. He has PM'd me 3 times, and the last time was a while back.

[Andrius]

SCUMMIER THAN THOU:
DRK
tajo

We're doing pretty good IMO.

@ tajo: Use your brain; you can attempt to WIFOM and/or manipulate your god if you think they're scum.
DGB is town. *goes to offer fruit*

DGB: hey would you sacrifice as a VT to help a PR?
DISTRACTED FOLLOWER 1: mmm, if I were a VT, I would.

That kind of answer indicates to me that FOLLOWER 1 is not a VT.

DGB: hey would you sacrifice as a VT to help a PR?
"I TRUST DGB" FOLLOWER 2: yes, I will sacrifice myself for a PR if you wish my goddess.

I dont care if these scnearios actually happened, the possibilities of it happening are not low and THATS what Im fighting against now.

tajo, let me give YOU an example:

DGB: Hey if you were a VT would you sacrifice yourself to help a PR?
Andy: Of course!

True story.

Another one:

DGB: Hey if you were a VT would you sacrifice yourself to help a PR?
hito: Of course!

DGB: Hey if you were a VT would you sacrifice yourself to help a PR?
SpyreX: Of course!

DGB: Hey if you were a VT would you sacrifice yourself to help a PR?
CMAR: Of course!

And finally:

DGB: Hey if you were a VT would you sacrifice yourself to help a PR?
tajo:

I see you drivin' round town with the girl I love...

U ROLEFISHING

Don't leave Mina! D:
OH NO, NOT THE OTHER-GAME REFERENCES. *dun dun dun DUNNN*

Andrius: So if apparently, your only issue with SpyreX is that he was lurking...um, why exactly do you trust me? If you're looking at pure activity levels alone, I'm about ten times worse than SpyreX. You don't see anything wrong with his individual posts, other than that there haven't been many of them? But you still think he's scum?

Because you can be both friendly and call him out as scum. And I liked it because you're a wallposted and was like "oh im just voting spyreX here". Leaning scum, Mina. Leaning scum.
SpyreX is usually more active and protown, calling people out and stuff. :/


Someone want to explain Jack's gambit please? I'm so confused. :S

Yes, I do - less quality control here. Seems like scum would put less effort into generating content to keep the same level of editing, rather than vice-versa.

I admit, I was more focused on reading and getting my thoughts out there than making it look clean and concise. I only edited it because the site said I had too many smilies in my post.