In the Court of the Gods (Game Over)

[Fishythefish]

@DRK: where are you?

[Zang]

I'm going to start reading at page 4 when day started.

Even if you feel like being coy about your alignment, is Jack joking, yes or no? Did he send you a PM claiming to be scum? Did you claim to be the scum god in reply? Why don't you paraphrase the exchange between yourself instead of brushing it off as a joke?

Do you think that Jack is more or less likely to be town for his stunt?

Why bother asking this? If NS is scum then he'll say that he didn't whether Jack did or didnt. If NS is town and Jack did claim then he would have already said something. 

NO. My towndar is near-infallible as everyone knows, and I only trust myself. I do not submit to possible scum voting blocks. Furthermore, it's the only useful power I may grant, and I can only grant it every 4 days. So, no.

I don't know that and I'm sure many others don't also. That is also only true if you are a town god. It's fine that you don't trust anyone individually but you should trust the town as a majority since there is more town then scum.

I don't understand why you are making a big deal out of it. I can't even prevent a NK on a townie because the "protect" is a public one, so the scum can mow down some other townie. .

Yes, but the person that you wanted to protect would still live and that could make a big difference.

NS knew his identity (as witnessed by NS being the one to initiate contact with Jack), but not his role.

According to what NS has told me, Jack responded with a two word claim of his role, but nothing else.

Jack has told us, that he responded with a scum claim, to which NS replied with a scum claim of his own.

I don't see the complication here. Nothing is out of place.

I don't really understand. NS would have known if Jack is or isn't town so wouldn't need to claim.

EBWOP: Beyond the fact that one of Jack or NS must be lying of course.

I think jack already claimed to lying here-

THANK YOU 

ONE PERSON IS NOT BRAIN DEAD

Which probably means you're the scum god

Where he acknowledged that NS wouldn't have claimed to him that he was the scum god. And if NS did claim, why would Jack be calling someone else the scum god?

This is just more evidence that Jack is lying. One of them is scum, if it's NS then he would already know Jack was town and would never claim scum. If it's jack then I guess he assumed we wouldn't know that the scum know who the evil god is and vice versa so he could get away with it. The bottom line is that one of them is lying and Jack has better odds of being that liar. If we're wrong then we know who the scum god is which is totally worth it because we can get reads from him.

 

If it is NS then why would Jack claim that they both claimed scum?

P-edit: Jack claims that NS claimed scum to him via PM and NS says that he didn't. One of them is lying. If Jack is scum he probably didn't realize that the town knew that the scum knew who the evil god is, so he figured he could make this insane gambit and have everything NS says discredited.

Why would Jack assume that?

NS also told me that you were one of his scumbuddies tmh. Are you? Because when I flip town, that means that ns is obv the scum god, and then either you or him is lying.

If this is true then why didn't you claim this before? Did anybody else claim scum.

K, Feysal is town.

Are you going to keep randomly declaring people scum or town without any reason? Because that's pretty much all that you've been doing for the past page and it's adding no content.

Meta tell. Jack does gambits, and from what I've seen, Jack-town has a clear objective in mind when he does so. I saw it here and I agreed with it, hence my belief that Jack is not lying as a scumbag but as a gambit.

I also see no scum motivation behind what Jack is doing. It's creating discussion for the town and it's helping him and others (namely, me) get reads, which is productive for town and counterproductive for scum. Therefore, I believe that this is a town gambit.

Jack hasn't done any gambits in the games that I've played with him if he has then none of them are as elaborate as this. I really don't see much of a town motivation for what he's doing either. This is counterproductive for the town also. He may be getting reads but the rest of the town is distracted and doing fake scumhunting and discussion.

Zang because he's lurking. And ignoring me. I've asked him something, and he's not replied, and due to the nature of what I asked, I think he's trying to come up with a good cover story. Did I mention lurking?

Lurking isn't scummy. How am I supposed to reply to your question if I haven't even read the game?

Simply put, there's no proof of Jack's intentions so we have to fall back on what we have.
A) He was lying, bad, bad sign and almost never pro-town.

Of course he was lying, you can't really have a gambit without lying.

Here's a relevant game for people who haven't seen Jack's silly gambits:

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... &start=650.

But that isn't even close to how complex this one is.

SpyreX is also lurking more than anyone except Zang. Plus, SpyreX thinks I'm lying.

What about benmage or Populartajo/brokenscrapes?

I just saw Zang, which makes this the third time (that I know of) he's logged on since his Me=Weird vote without saying anything. SPEAK.

Yes, I've logged in since then but i have other mafia commitments and little time to read this.

TMH's insistence on lynching Jack is distur.....wait...did he just...OMG HE DID. HE ACCUSED JACK OF BEING A JESTER.. ARE YOU KIDDING ME? VOTE: THEMANHIMSELF

I don't think he insisted on it, he just suggested.

Andrius is scum, but it's something you have to see.

Lady L could be scum, Feysal could be scum (aka he of the 5000 words that could be summarize with "jack is slightly scummy").

Is that all you have to say about the past 5 pages?

In other news, I'm pretty sure tajo is scum based on some communications in the QT. 

Tajo's first post in the QT was as "tajo."

The second post was as "Anonscum" - tajo's alt is Anon.

I think he forgot to change the login after posting in the scum QT.

This is really weak.

I dunno, everytime I turn off my browser, I have to fill in the login name, which is remembered... until the next session only.

It saves my name.

hitogoroshi - I'm not sure why finding the scum god is a priority when we can't lynch or kill the God. Every town player worth their salt should be cautions of their God. The goal is to lynch or get the mortal scum.

Yes but it would be very nice to know who the scum god is, then we would have two confirmed unkillable town gods.


Jacks gambit confuses me too much. At first, I thought he was town but now I dont really see any pro-town motivitation for it.

Unvote

Vote: Jack

Also,

FoS: Themanhimself

[farside22]

Still reading, need to get ready for work here is the latest reads on some players I got thru.


SpyreX - I really can't say I'm a fan of spyreX back and forth about Jack. First Jack is town, then
Jack's upping the stakes makes no sense as a town gambit, then he is against lynching Jack. He placed one vote for Me=Weird and just responds with more fluff then scum hunting.

Equinox

I want me a new red-colored wagon to put my toys in.

Unvote, Vote: Jack

I'm not thrilled about the reasons behind the new Jack votes, but it's a Jack wagon, so I'm not going to complain (too much).

hypocrite much?

Wow just wow Equinox is so much X then agreeing with with this is the second one I found:

It is worth it, but I wouldn't put in excessive amounts of effort into finding the scum god. Lynching mortals is faster and easier.

While I'm in favor of finding the scum god (as long as we're not blowing time on it), a Jack vs. Nobody Special lynch dichotomy is not the way to do this, and so I strongly disagree with lynching Jack to "learn" about Nobody Special.

Equinox: Why are you voting for TMH?
Also if you know jack normally does gambits why did you vote for him?
What reads did you garner from Jack's gambit?

The pro's about Equinox: He's asking questions, points a few things out and generally seems to be scum hunting. I just have those few nagging thoughts above that make me question him.


Gut feel equinox is town but those things that make me go hmm. Spreyx may be scum, he's not striking me as town. No pushing, questioning, moving things along. More fluff then anything.

[Equinox]

I slept for 12 hours. Best thing that has happened to me this week.

Let's not go down this road. I get that this may be your thought process on the whole matter, but posting stuff like this makes it difficult later down the road to read the situation when it comes up, since you've just prescribed here what your thoughts are and how you'd read it.

As I was saying: What Feysal did there was speculate on scum's actions in a situation before the situation came up. What's wrong with this is when the situation actually comes up, the fact that he made these speculations public and that the scum are aware of it screws up how we can read their reactions.

Since that's probably not very coherent either, let me put it in another way. There is a scummy player A who softclaims a power role, and as a result we all drop the case without explicitly saying so. A couple of us hope that scum shoot player A the power role so that we can move on to other scum reads. Player B comes in and says, "Well, scum probably aren't going to kill player A just so they can WIFOM us into lynching him." Boom! Player A survives because now he's still lynch bait.

---

What interests me here is that Lady Lambdadelta picks that part of my post instead of the part where I accuse him of being wishy-washy with regards to Jack and themanhimself. Hoping that I'd change my mind again and hop on someone else, did you?

And then there's this:

Jack, does Feysal=Andy?

Weird thing to pick on in Jack's 285.

My vote stays. The Witch of Certainty is most certainly scum.

---

Zang asks pretty useless questions.

Jack hasn't done any gambits in the games that I've played with him if he has then none of them are as elaborate as this. I really don't see much of a town motivation for what he's doing either. This is counterproductive for the town also. He may be getting reads but the rest of the town is distracted and doing fake scumhunting and discussion.

Yes, this is different from the other stuff I've seen Jack-town do, but the result has been pretty much the same. The reason I say there's town motivation to this is this particular gambit with him introducing inconsistencies to get reactions from specific people.

TMH's insistence on lynching Jack is distur.....wait...did he just...OMG HE DID. HE ACCUSED JACK OF BEING A JESTER.. ARE YOU KIDDING ME?

VOTE: THEMANHIMSELF

I don't think he insisted on it, he just suggested.

Say what?

The only lynch themanhimself has pushed all day is Jack. I'm pretty sure that isn't "just suggested."

Jacks gambit confuses me too much. At first, I thought he was town but now I dont really see any pro-town motivitation for it.

Zang votes Jack, which isn't unexpected given his sentiments in that wall. But what I don't get is why he FoSed themanhimself. The times he mentioned themanhimself in his wall was to point out funky logic, and yet Zang came to the same conclusion that themanhimself did: that Jack's gambit didn't have town motivation and was, therefore, scummy.

---

hypocrite much?

No. I had a different line of thinking from hitogoroshi & co. when I voted Jack. The votes on Jack that came after me had reasons with which I disagreed; they were to determine which one of Nobody Special and Jack was scum, which was setting up a false dilemma. I did not like the reasoning behind those votes, but I didn't disagree with the general wagon.

Wow just wow Equinox is so much X then agreeing with with this is the second one I found:

I don't see the contradiction. But then again, it is my thought process, so I wouldn't see anything wrong with it.

My priority is to lynch scum mortals. Always. One way to do that is to find the scum god; however, at the point when I made those posts, people were putting too much emphasis on finding the scum god when that shouldn't have been the priority. I don't disagree with the idea that we should find the scum god, but if we're doing that before we search for mortals, that's not an efficient way to use our time.

Equinox: Why are you voting for TMH?

I voted themanhimself for pushing a Jack vs. Nobody Special dichotomy when it wasn't necessarily the case that one of them had to be scum. Sure, one of them had to be lying, but themanhimself was pushing further than that, and his dichotomy is a false dilemma. Pushing that is scummy.

Also if you know jack normally does gambits why did you vote for him?

I didn't vote him for the gambit; I voted him for his read of Lady Lambdadelta. I had a town read of Lady Lambdadelta at the time, and then he voted her without ever explaining it.

What reads did you garner from Jack's gambit?

To summarize from notes: themanhimself-scum, Lady Lambdadelta-town, Feysal-town, hitogoroshi-town, Nobody Special-scum.

Though looking at that again, that wasn't a very big list... and I've just 180ed on over half of it.

---

In case I didn't make it clear in my last couple of posts, with Nobody Special's and Lady Lambdadelta's votes, I'm pretty sure themanhimself is lynch bait. Fishythefish also made a good point in our discussions. I still have that meta read to do, but at this point I lean town on themanhimself.

I want to lynch either Feysal or Lady Lambdadelta.

More later.

[Equinox]

I just had a thought. Feysal and Nobody Special can't be scum together, but after post 281, I can swear that Nobody Special is scum. WTF. My mind is blown.

[DeathRowKitty]

@DRK: where are you?

Uhh...right here?

Vote: hitogoroshi. Hello hito.

Hi. This just because I found value in the number-crunching, or...?

Nah, it's just because I wanted to say hello

Looking back on it now, I'm not sure my suspicion based on that made much sense. I think my reasoning was something to do with scum being more interested in setup-related issues and less in the game itself. If I can't remember exactly, it either wasn't that great of a reason or I need more sleep (or both). I definitely need more sleep. I'm willing to pin it down to the former for now though.

Unvote

I have a recent scum Meta on TMH (on going game though, so I can't give details.)

He played rather similarly to this.

Welcome to Awkward Actions in Relation to the Possibly Scummy Player, the tv show where YOU take awkward actions in relation to the possibly scummy players!...I did mention I need to sleep more, right? Well, LL has had kind of a strange sequence of posts as regards TMH that spans at least 4 consecutive posts of her iso. This, this, this, and what I quoted. (gah, Equinox sort of beat me to calling her out on this..or something similar, at least)

Re: the QT thing: I stay logged in when I close my browser. We ttly didn't have enough people say that already.

I'm surprised that people who have played with andy before can't tell he's scum this game.

Okay, I'll bite. What about his play this game makes him scum?

farside: I only mentioned LL because when I made the post she was the only one who'd talked about stats. Then I didn't notice the new posts in preview.

Hito: Post #46 » Mon Jan 31, 2011 1:55 pm
andrius Post #49 » Mon Jan 31, 2011 2:02 pm
LL Post #50 » Mon Jan 31, 2011 2:06 pm
DKR Mon Jan 31, 2011 2:10 pm
Me=Weird vote: Post #55 » Mon Jan 31, 2011 2:13 pm

Me=Weird lying 100%
so far vote is not moving.

Remind me to read this when I'm capable of focusing on it. It seems useful.

Zang posted and is now scum. It's a shame because we never would have known if he's never posted anything.

Vote: Lady Lamb

[Nobody Special]

K, Feysal is town.

Are you going to keep randomly declaring people scum or town without any reason? Because that's pretty much all that you've been doing for the past page and it's adding no content.

I see you've not played much with DGB. Or have you and you're trying to send a message to your scumGod?

Zang because he's lurking. And ignoring me. I've asked him something, and he's not replied, and due to the nature of what I asked, I think he's trying to come up with a good cover story. Did I mention lurking?

Lurking isn't scummy. How am I supposed to reply to your question if I haven't even read the game?

You'll note that to answer part of my question, you didn't even need to read

this game.

Thanks for ignoring me, scum.

SpyreX is also lurking more than anyone except Zang. Plus, SpyreX thinks I'm lying.

What about benmage or Populartajo/brokenscrapes?

They aren't lurking at the same level you are. Besides, they aren't presenting as totally scummy, like you are, either.

TMH's insistence on lynching Jack is distur.....wait...did he just...OMG HE DID. HE ACCUSED JACK OF BEING A JESTER.. ARE YOU KIDDING ME? VOTE: THEMANHIMSELF

I don't think he insisted on it, he just suggested.

Equinox dealt with this. Stop trying to downplay your scumpal's actions.

hitogoroshi - I'm not sure why finding the scum god is a priority when we can't lynch or kill the God. Every town player worth their salt should be cautions of their God. The goal is to lynch or get the mortal scum.

Yes but it would be very nice to know who the scum god is, then we would have two confirmed unkillable town gods.

I'll just put this out there -- how, exactly, are we going to confirm the alignment of ANY God, since the Gods don't flip?

@Equinox: You say that you feel TMH is scum, yet my voting him makes me scummy. I'm sorry, but I can't wrap my head around this reasoning. Please elaborate? Lack of sleep or no, you're acting contrary to the Town!Equi that I know and love, and so for the moment, you're on my scumlist.

@Fishy: Does LLL = Lady Lambdadelta? (Post 299)

[zoraster]

Day 1 Vote Count

Andrius ( 2 ) Jack,

Fishythefish,

populartajo ( 1 )

DrippingGoofball,

hitogoroshi ( 0 )
me=weird ( 2 ) SpyreX, farside22,
SpyreX ( 0 )
Equinox ( 0 )
farside22 ( 1 ) Mina,
Feysal ( 1 ) me=weird,
Mina ( 0 )
themanhimself ( 3 ) hitogoroshi, Lady Lambdadelta,

Nobody Special,

Benmage ( 0 )
DeathRowKitty ( 0 )
Jack ( 3 ) Andrius, themanhimself, Zang,
Lady Lambdadelta ( 2 ) Equinox, DeathRowKitty,
Zang ( 0 )
Not Voting ( 3 ) populartajo, Feysal, Benmage,
Total Votes ( 18 )

Deadline: February 14th at 23:00 EDT
With 18 able to vote, 10 needed to lynch.

[Equinox]

@Equinox: You say that you feel TMH is scum, yet my voting him makes me scummy. I'm sorry, but I can't wrap my head around this reasoning. Please elaborate? Lack of sleep or no, you're acting contrary to the Town!Equi that I know and love, and so for the moment, you're on my scumlist.

Incorrect. I no longer feel that themanhimself is scum. The behavior surrounding him is questionable, which leads me to believe that he's become lynch bait; I realize there's a possibility that he's being bussed if he's scum, but either way, I'm not interested in lynching themanhimself right now.

Your voting him is scummy. When I asked you for your scum reads, you stated Andrius and SpyreX; it wasn't until much later and after most of the scummy stuff from themanhimself stopped that you voted him, and I find that questionable.

[Me=Weird]

Hito: Post #46 » Mon Jan 31, 2011 1:55 pm
andrius Post #49 » Mon Jan 31, 2011 2:02 pm
LL Post #50 » Mon Jan 31, 2011 2:06 pm
DKR Mon Jan 31, 2011 2:10 pm
Me=Weird vote: Post #55 » Mon Jan 31, 2011 2:13 pm

I didn't pay much attention to 46, and 49 didn't seem very stat oriented. For all the ones after LL's, I missed the new post thing in preview.

You should be lucky to get that though, because I quit. 18 players is just too many, especially for a game that gets about 6 pages a day. I really hate to do this, but

please replace me.

[themanhimself]

Hrm, now I'm thinking equinox is more confused town about the Jack situation which contrasts my earlier reads. I'm nowhere near ready to unvote Jack but I agree that LLD unovting Jack and going to me is a very, very weird move. I've seen scum pull that exact same move when they were bussing another scum and wanted to get off the bandwagon. If it looks like the LLD lynch is where we're gonna end up further into the day I

might

consider switching my vote only if I think it could help confirm Jack as scum. Forgive my single-mindedness but I've never had a read this solid.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Hrm, now I'm thinking equinox is more confused town about the Jack situation which contrasts my earlier reads. I'm nowhere near ready to unvote Jack but I agree that LLD unovting Jack and going to me is a very, very weird move. I've seen scum pull that exact same move when they were bussing another scum and wanted to get off the bandwagon.

If it looks like the LLD lynch is where we're gonna end up further into the day I

might

consider switching my vote only if I think it could help confirm Jack as scum.

Forgive my single-mindedness but I've never had a read this solid.

This is a perfect example of TMH trying to no distance himself from the Jack lynch. He doesn't want to appear like he's hopping off too fast, so instead he'll pretend that Jack is still a valid lynch today (pro tip: It isn't) and will stick with Jack until he sees a bigger wagon form on me, then vote me.

The bolded part reads as: "When LLD gets enough votes, I'll switch to her, and pretend it has something to do with Jack."


Do you see now why I switched my vote to him? He really is scumz. :S

[themanhimself]

Hrm, now I'm thinking equinox is more confused town about the Jack situation which contrasts my earlier reads. I'm nowhere near ready to unvote Jack but I agree that LLD unovting Jack and going to me is a very, very weird move. I've seen scum pull that exact same move when they were bussing another scum and wanted to get off the bandwagon.

If it looks like the LLD lynch is where we're gonna end up further into the day I

might

consider switching my vote only if I think it could help confirm Jack as scum.

Forgive my single-mindedness but I've never had a read this solid.

This is a perfect example of TMH trying to no distance himself from the Jack lynch. He doesn't want to appear like he's hopping off too fast, so instead he'll pretend that Jack is still a valid lynch today (pro tip: It isn't) and will stick with Jack until he sees a bigger wagon form on me, then vote me.

The bolded part reads as: "When LLD gets enough votes, I'll switch to her, and pretend it has something to do with Jack."


Do you see now why I switched my vote to him? He really is scumz. :S

It actually reads "I don't want to hold the town back with my single-mindedness, particularly when I think I could help advance the lynch of someone else I think is scum". The motivations for switching to you are incredibly obvious, the relationship between you and jack and me has been really weird. If lynching you helps reveal jack to be scum then I'll be for it, I just don't think it's quite there yet.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

@Equinox: You say that you feel TMH is scum, yet my voting him makes me scummy. I'm sorry, but I can't wrap my head around this reasoning. Please elaborate? Lack of sleep or no, you're acting contrary to the Town!Equi that I know and love, and so for the moment, you're on my scumlist.

Incorrect. I no longer feel that themanhimself is scum. The behavior surrounding him is questionable, which leads me to believe that he's become lynch bait; I realize there's a possibility that he's being bussed if he's scum, but either way, I'm not interested in lynching themanhimself right now.

Your voting him is scummy. When I asked you for your scum reads, you stated Andrius and SpyreX; it wasn't until much later and after most of the scummy stuff from themanhimself stopped that you voted him, and I find that questionable.

Actually, you dropped TMH pretty fast there Equinox... you were so adamant about him being scum, and now you drop off him when real interest pops up?

This actually reads to me as you voting TMH as a means of separating the two of you from being connected, and then when the potential for TMH to be lynched arose, you hopped off him as quickly as you hopped on, and voted and FoS'd anyone who voted him (even though you did the same).

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Hrm, now I'm thinking equinox is more confused town about the Jack situation which contrasts my earlier reads. I'm nowhere near ready to unvote Jack but I agree that LLD unovting Jack and going to me is a very, very weird move. I've seen scum pull that exact same move when they were bussing another scum and wanted to get off the bandwagon.

If it looks like the LLD lynch is where we're gonna end up further into the day I

might

consider switching my vote only if I think it could help confirm Jack as scum.

Forgive my single-mindedness but I've never had a read this solid.

This is a perfect example of TMH trying to no distance himself from the Jack lynch. He doesn't want to appear like he's hopping off too fast, so instead he'll pretend that Jack is still a valid lynch today (pro tip: It isn't) and will stick with Jack until he sees a bigger wagon form on me, then vote me.

The bolded part reads as: "When LLD gets enough votes, I'll switch to her, and pretend it has something to do with Jack."


Do you see now why I switched my vote to him? He really is scumz. :S

It actually reads "I don't want

to hold the town back with my single-mindedness

, particularly when I think I could help advance the lynch of someone else I think is scum". The motivations for switching to you are incredibly obvious, the relationship between you and jack and me has been really weird. If lynching you helps reveal jack to be scum then I'll be for it, I just don't think it's quite there yet.

Bolded is hilarious.

That didn't seem to stop you when there was pressure on Jack! Now that the pressure on Jack has died down, you no longer want to tunnel him. You want to be "open-minded". I called you out earlier on for tunnelling. I FoS'd you on it. And your reaction was to continue tunnelling Jack. What's changed now?

[Equinox]

Hrm, now I'm thinking equinox is more confused town about the Jack situation which contrasts my earlier reads.

Actually, you dropped TMH pretty fast there Equinox... you were so adamant about him being scum, and now you drop off him when real interest pops up?

This actually reads to me as you voting TMH as a means of separating the two of you from being connected, and then when the potential for TMH to be lynched arose, you hopped off him as quickly as you hopped on, and voted and FoS'd anyone who voted him (even though you did the same).

You call Nobody Special's opportunistic-as-hell vote "real interest"? You call the vote you made after I called you out on your wishy-washy reads of Jack and themanhimself "real interest"? And then you accuse me of chainsaw-defending themanhimself?

I'm trying very hard not to laugh here.

---

Okay, what the hell is with you lot drawing connections between people whose flips you don't even know?

themanhimself, if you want to "hold[ing] the town back with [your] single-mindedness," stop, drop, and roll out of your tunnel, and read the whole thread again. This is insane.

Lady Lambdadelta, if you were so sold on themanhimself, why did it take so long for you to vote him? What's themanhimself's scum motivation for tunneling Jack for this long?

[Equinox]

Actually, here's a better question for the both of you: Outside of {Equinox, Jack, Lady Lambdadelta, themanhimself}, who's scum?

[hitogoroshi]

Oh damnit I hate when my top two townreads are fighting.

On the one hand, I don't think TMH is just town mislynchbait. Jack set up a gambity thing that quite a few people, myself included, jumped for.. I think Jack realized that it wasn't entirely obvious he was lying, so he took up the lie to an absurd level to demonstrate "Durr, obviously that first thing wasn't real." Pretty much everyone realized at that point that the (awesome if actually true) opposing alignments on Jack--NS thing wasn't actually true. TMH, though, clung on even as Jack began dousing his posts in crazy. To me, that smells like a scum who was trying to push something scummy, got called out, and reasoned "Well as long as I hold STEADFAST to the idea, no matter how wrong it looks, I'll look like a misguided townie instead of opportunistic scum." That seems like the only thing that justifies how tenaciously TMH is holding on to this Jack suspicions.

As well, I agree with LLD's [http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p2773495]311[/url]. It seems like he's desperately trying to get to a less controversial spot while simultaneously making sure to scream "BUT HEY, I SUSPECT JACK. I WILL ALWAYS SUSPECT JACK. FOREVER. BECAUSE AS LONG AS I'M DOIN THAT I WASN'T A SCUM TRYING TO SET UP A FALSE DICHOTOMY, RIGHT?"

But then I read stuff like Equi 303 and even though it calls my scum read town and my other town read scum it's all

so fucking reasonable

that I'm not entirely sure it's wrong. Equinox is oozing town and I don't like dismissing non-VI townies wholesale...

If anyone needs me, I'll be in the Chamber of Understanding.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I believe I answered both questions Equinox.

I stayed on Jack because I was convinced he was scum, until I started to see what people (namely you) were talking about with reference to the gambit. Since the Gambit was outed, Jack has started to play more like a townie, so I dropped him.

If you recall, I had been suspicious of the way TMH handled his case on Jack, even going as far as to FoS him for tunnelling (I was still voting Jack, because I was still under the impression that his motives were scummy.)

The scum motivation for TMH tunneling Jack was that Jack seemed to be a rather easy lynch at the time. Just use a LAL policy and go under the claim of "this will provide the most info" and you have your case on Jack. What makes him scummy is that now that the Jack case has died, and it is no longer a easy lynch, TMH seems to be slinking off it. He is slowly backing off.

ALSO, I notice that you are giving him a nice way out with:

themanhimself, if you want to "hold[ing] the town back with [your] single-mindedness," stop, drop, and roll out of your tunnel, and read the whole thread again. This is insane.

I happen to find it scummy of TMH abandoning his Jack case like this, after being the most fervent out of everyone trying to lynch him. I find it more interesting that you are now giving him a way out to say "Sorry I was being stupid guys! Here, let me follow your wagon Equinox!"

You are making excuses for his play.

He is guilty of:
Tunnelling
Wagon Hopping
Distancing

I have provided examples, and I can continue to do so.

I firmly believe that he is scum. It only took me a while to get to him because I had a problem with Jack. Once I saw Jack's intent, I was more that happy to vote the real scum.

[Equinox]

Well, if Jack's gambit didn't toss loads of shit into this town, this whole thing with themanhimself et al. sure did.

I stayed on Jack because I was convinced he was scum, until I started to see what people (namely you) were talking about with reference to the gambit. Since the Gambit was outed, Jack has started to play more like a townie, so I dropped him.

If you recall, I had been suspicious of the way TMH handled his case on Jack, even going as far as to FoS him for tunnelling (I was still voting Jack, because I was still under the impression that his motives were scummy.)

The scum motivation for TMH tunneling Jack was that Jack seemed to be a rather easy lynch at the time. Just use a LAL policy and go under the claim of "this will provide the most info" and you have your case on Jack. What makes him scummy is that now that the Jack case has died, and it is no longer a easy lynch, TMH seems to be slinking off it. He is slowly backing off.

Hmm...

Jack starts getting out of his gambit at around post 239, where he's posting reads but still not explaining him. You start considering the possibility of a Jack gambit and the themanhimself wagon at post 176, jump off and vote themanhimself at post 278, and

keep your FoS on Jack

. Right, you dropped Jack like a hot potato.

Fair enough RE: themanhimself. I see that you did voice suspicions of how themanhimself was tunneling.

And...

Dammit. Why the hell does your third paragraph have to make sense, now I'm all confused. hitogoroshi, you too.

He is guilty of:
Tunnelling
Wagon Hopping

Distancing

How the fuck do you call distancing without scum flips. Someone needs to teach me this skill.

I happen to find it scummy of TMH abandoning his Jack case like this, after being the most fervent out of everyone trying to lynch him. I find it more interesting that you are now giving him a way out to say "Sorry I was being stupid guys! Here, let me follow your wagon Equinox!"

You've got to be fucking kidding me, Lady Lambdadelta. Yes, I was the most fervent in trying to lynch him, and I 180ed the case when I saw that there was weird stuff going on at the tail end of the wagon. To suggest that I'm trying to give him an out by forcing him to get reads outside of his stupid tunnel is ludicrous.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I can call it distancing under the assumption he is scum.

What he's doing would be what scum would do in this situation. I don't need a flip, because I'm making that read under the assumption he is scum.

Equinox, the part about being "fervent" was directed at TMH.

The only thing I'm directing at you is the accusation of scum-coaching him along to another target. And admittedly that's not even all that strong of a case.

[hitogoroshi]

The only thing I'm directing at you is the accusation of scum-coaching him along to another target. And admittedly that's not even all that strong of a case.

Coaching isn't a tell in a game with scum daytalk.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

It is when the only other way TMH is going to escape unvoting Jack without suspicion is if someone like Equinox tells him to unvote.

He's being given permission to leave the Jack wagon. Permission to hop wherever the next most likely wagon is going to emerge.

[Equinox]

I'm about ready to put my hands up in the air and just admit scum, even if I'm lying out of my ass.

This is stupid.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I'm about ready to put my hands up in the air and just admit scum, even if I'm lying out of my ass.

This is stupid.

That's a ridiculous AoE...

Look, I want you to prove me wrong. You don't help ANYONE in town when you give up.

If you can prove my logic faulty (and clearly you believe it is) then SHOW ME.

Otherwise, stop this shit, and get back to the fucking game.