In the Court of the Gods (Game Over)

[Equinox]

Can you explain to my why you do not think it applies?

Meta tell. Jack does gambits, and from what I've seen, Jack-town has a clear objective in mind when he does so. I saw it here and I agreed with it, hence my belief that Jack is not lying as a scumbag but as a gambit.

I also see no scum motivation behind what Jack is doing. It's creating discussion for the town and it's helping him and others (namely, me) get reads, which is productive for town and counterproductive for scum. Therefore, I believe that this is a

town

gambit.

So equinox, your whole case is that Jack's play is gambit for the town? What's the purpose of it? You said it worked so what did it do?

Yes. I believe its purpose is to get reads, and that's what it did. I may disagree with Jack's reads, but his gambit has certainly helped me and others get reads of our own.

Jack did not accuse a random player of being scummy. That accusation seems pretty calculated to me, seeing as I (and presumably Lady Lambdadelta) got the same vibes he did about you at that particular point in time.

Yes, you guys speculated over a false dilemma (just not for 7 pages). The sentiment I got from this past discussion that one of Jack and Nobody Special

has

to be scum; that, to me, is a very poor assumption to make, and I strongly dislike that it was made at all. Jack's flip does nothing to help any of us read Nobody Special, and Nobody Special doesn't even flip. Even if he did, it wouldn't tell us anything about Jack.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Can you explain to my why you do not think it applies?

Meta tell. Jack does gambits, and from what I've seen, Jack-town has a clear objective in mind when he does so. I saw it here and I agreed with it, hence my belief that Jack is not lying as a scumbag but as a gambit.

I also see no scum motivation behind what Jack is doing. It's creating discussion for the town and it's helping him and others (namely, me) get reads, which is productive for town and counterproductive for scum. Therefore, I believe that this is a

town

gambit.

So equinox, your whole case is that Jack's play is gambit for the town? What's the purpose of it? You said it worked so what did it do?

Yes. I believe its purpose is to get reads, and that's what it did. I may disagree with Jack's reads, but his gambit has certainly helped me and others get reads of our own.

Jack did not accuse a random player of being scummy. That accusation seems pretty calculated to me, seeing as I (and presumably Lady Lambdadelta) got the same vibes he did about you at that particular point in time.

Yes, you guys speculated over a false dilemma (just not for 7 pages). The sentiment I got from this past discussion that one of Jack and Nobody Special

has

to be scum; that, to me, is a very poor assumption to make, and I strongly dislike that it was made at all. Jack's flip does nothing to help any of us read Nobody Special, and Nobody Special doesn't even flip. Even if he did, it wouldn't tell us anything about Jack.

Seems a tiny bit extensive, not to mention dangerous, just to skip RVS and garner shoddy if not biased reads.

However, TMH seems desperate to have Jack be the lynch today. He's continuing to make comments that imply he wants only Jack to be the target today. He even went as far as to come out and state that Jack was the only possible vote today. This limiting of his own, AND the towns vision to a tunnel can be classified as scummy.

If Jack can convince me that this was a elaborate gambit, I'd say TMH is a good lynch today.

[hitogoroshi]

Okay, I get what you're doing, Jack. I still feel justified in the initial wagon on you- it's not a certainty that the scum immortal knows who the scum are, since a theme of this setup does seem to be "gather information in QT with your Immortal/your High Priests". Given that, it's not a huge leap to take your first post at face value, in my view at least. But you ratcheted it up to a zany level and TMH still jumped. I'm not quite sure if that's a newbtell or a scumtell, but regardless:

Unvote, Jack. Vote: TMH

Fun fact: if TMH flips scum, NS is one of the town gods.

Also, Equi is town.

[farside22]

KNOWING NS is the scumlord is worth the tradeoff.
Spy, its like sacrificing 4 VTs to get rid of a Bulletproof RoleCop.
(Not that extreme though.)

Where did you get the idea this would happen?

NS: Why are you pointing out this out:

Jack, bless his heart, is flat-out lying. I did send him the PM in question; he replied with two (very short) words. That is the extent of our communication thus far. I certainly did not claim scumGod.

But don't place a vote?

See that is the Jack crazy I'm used to. I sat at work thinking about his actions and I realized he was already starting something at the very beginning, but alas I mistook it for seriousness.
I pretty much believe NS is the immortal scum God. He doesn't place a vote with a very serious accusation towards Jack and doesn't vote for Jack based on the supposed claim by Jack.
any town worth there salt would have vote Jack right off the bat and made the statement of why as soon as it happened.
I got my eye on Andrius and until Me=Weird comes in to explain himself my vote stands.

[farside22]

Looking back into TMH

Pretty much the only thing we can do today is lynch Jack. I don't see anyway to move forward without resolving this glaring inconsistency and since we can't lynch NS we pretty much have to lynch Jack. Besides that, the way I'm seeing the situation, it's a lot more likely that Jack is the one lying, I can see motivation and a means for that at least where I can't with NS.

NS is immune to kills and lynches. He is found lying all we know for sure is he's untrustworthy and that's all.
NS found lying in short means just that we know who the scum God is. That tells us nothing of the scum mortals.
Jack lying means as a mortal he is lynched and he did this gambit to get lynched to go against his WINCON?
Really?

Oh my god, now I

know

that Jack is lying. This is such a clear OMGUS accusation. And why the hell would the scum god tell you his scumbuddies so you can go lynch them? I'm worried Jack is a jester, but I've played with Jackscum before and he was absolutely terrible, so maybe it's just that again.

God this was so funny it needed to be quoted again just for the hysterical laughter I got reading the dialog back and forth.
I can see why there is a wagon here. Mentioning Jesters when there is no mention of it in the set up, asking that ridiculous question about why would the scum god tell you his scumbuddies, like really Jack is a mind reader?
Also the push on Jack and believe NS for really inconsequential reason's.
My one problem with TMH is his reaction that I'm laughing hard at (insert mean comment about players lack of common sense) that I don't imagine scum being that stupid.

[Andrius]

Just responding to something quickly-like.

Where did you get the idea this would happen?

The 4 VT thing for 1 BP RoleCop came from Lord of the Rings Mafia. They lynched the Mordor Mafia's Bulletproof RoleCop D1, but lost 3 VTs and a Jailkeeper that night (forgot the JK the first time). So it was a tradeoff.
I was just insisting that losing ONE townie to confirm two Gods as town and one as scum is DEFINITELY worth the tradeoff.
Hell, I'd volunteer to get lynched if that was guaranteed.

[zoraster]

Day 1 Vote Count

Andrius ( 1 ) Jack,
Brokenscraps ( 0 )
hitogoroshi ( 0 )
me=weird ( 4 ) SpyreX,

Fishythefish,

Zang, farside22,
SpyreX ( 0 )
Equinox ( 0 )
farside22 ( 1 ) Mina,
Feysal ( 0 )
Mina ( 0 )
themanhimself ( 2 ) Equinox, hitogoroshi,
Benmage ( 0 )
DeathRowKitty ( 0 )
Jack ( 3 ) Lady Lambdadelta, Andrius, themanhimself,
Lady Lambdadelta ( 0 )
Zang ( 0 )
Not Voting ( 7 ) Brokenscraps, me=weird, Feysal, Benmage, DeathRowKitty,

DrippingGoofball,

Nobody Special,

Total Votes ( 18 )

Deadline: February 14th at 23:00 EDT
With 18 able to vote, 10 needed to lynch.

[zoraster]

Please note that as Brokenscraps did not confirm by PM or post here, I have replaced him with populartajo

Please welcome him!

[Nobody Special]

@farside: I'm not voting Jack because I, too, have experience with his gambits. I hardly ever agree with them, and he pisses me off the way he plays, but his lying does not automagically mean he's scum. He is quite anti-town, though.

[themanhimself]

Jack did not accuse a random player of being scummy. That accusation seems pretty calculated to me, seeing as I (and presumably Lady Lambdadelta) got the same vibes he did about you at that particular point in time.

I wasn't talking about me, I was talking about NS. The fact that he went back and changed his story is even more suspicious. What I don't like is you giving him a way out now that we all know his strategy was terrible.

[Equinox]

Jack did not accuse a random player of being scummy. That accusation seems pretty calculated to me, seeing as I (and presumably Lady Lambdadelta) got the same vibes he did about you at that particular point in time.

I wasn't talking about me, I was talking about NS. The fact that he went back and changed his story is even more suspicious. What I don't like is you giving him a way out now that we all know his strategy was terrible.

Jack is more than capable of getting out of his own gambits, I'm sure.

[Equinox]

Nobody Special, who's scum?

[Nobody Special]

Zang and SpyreX, at least.

[themanhimself]

Jack did not accuse a random player of being scummy. That accusation seems pretty calculated to me, seeing as I (and presumably Lady Lambdadelta) got the same vibes he did about you at that particular point in time.

I wasn't talking about me, I was talking about NS. The fact that he went back and changed his story is even more suspicious. What I don't like is you giving him a way out now that we all know his strategy was terrible.

Jack is more than capable of getting out of his own gambits, I'm sure.

I'm

not

going to reference an on-going (regardless of the fact that he's dead in it) but the sheer will-power of that act is going to make my ears bleed. What I'm worried about is that it was a scum gambit he can't get out of and you're coming in to sway the popular opinion that it was alright to do what he did.

People, just consider the facts, either Jack or NS is lying, pretty much everyone agrees it's Jack, even equinox. How can we just let that slide because one player came in and said 'Oh, that's probably a town move'?

[Equinox]

Zang and SpyreX, at least.

Great reads, sir. Why are they scum?

People, just consider the facts, either Jack or NS is lying, pretty much everyone agrees it's Jack, even equinox. How can we just let that slide because one player came in and said 'Oh, that's probably a town move'?

We are going to let that slide not because of me but because Jack's move helped town rather than hindered it. Look at the results; people are reacting to the gambit, and it's those reactions (or lack thereof) that are important. That's pro-town.

I'm done talking about Jack. If my previous arguments have not convinced you, then any further discussion with me on this subject is just going to be pointless bickering.

[Nobody Special]

SpyreX because he stated the Jack gambit "doesn't bother" him. Also, lurking.

Zang because he's lurking. And ignoring me. I've asked him something, and he's not replied, and due to the nature of what I asked, I think he's trying to come up with a good cover story. Did I mention lurking?

[Equinox]

SpyreX because he stated the Jack gambit "doesn't bother" him.

It doesn't bother you at all that others are saying the same thing, too?

I gather that Jack's gambit bothers you, but you can't say that he's scum for doing it, either, so why are you bothered by SpyreX?

[Me=Weird]

farside: I only mentioned LL because when I made the post she was the only one who'd talked about stats. Then I didn't notice the new posts in preview. In my next post I did ask hito about it.
About Jack, he's acting very anti-town but I've played with him and think he's town. Useless vig-bait town, though.
Equinox and I seem magnetically attracted to each other. Judging by past experience, I think she's town.
Right now, tmh is giving me scum vibes, but I'm going to come back to this game when I'm not half asleep.

The 4 VT thing for 1 BP RoleCop came from Lord of the Rings Mafia. They lynched the Mordor Mafia's Bulletproof RoleCop D1, but lost 3 VTs and a Jailkeeper that night (forgot the JK the first time). So it was a tradeoff.

Let's not talk about that.

[themanhimself]

We are going to let that slide not because of me but because Jack's move helped town rather than hindered it. Look at the results; people are reacting to the gambit, and it's those reactions (or lack thereof) that are important. That's pro-town.

I'm done talking about Jack. If my previous arguments have not convinced you, then any further discussion with me on this subject is just going to be pointless bickering.

So talking about this subject is pro-town but we're not talking about it anymore? Are we really going to shut down this conversation because one player said to?

[Equinox]

I'm

done talking about Jack. If my previous arguments have not convinced you, then any further discussion

with me

on this subject is just going to be pointless bickering.

So talking about this subject is pro-town but we're not talking about it anymore? Are we really going to shut down this conversation because one player said to?[/quote]
Bold emphases mine.

I meant me. I am not continuing my current (now past) discussion about Jack's alignment with you because that conversation is a stalemate. If others want to argue with you, I'm not going to stop them.

Why are you so hung up on this "one player said to" anyway? It's not like I'm a god telling y'all to do things.

[Equinox]

Why do I always forget to preview when it counts?

EBWOP:

I'm

done talking about Jack. If my previous arguments have not convinced you, then any further discussion

with me

on this subject is just going to be pointless bickering.

So talking about this subject is pro-town but we're not talking about it anymore? Are we really going to shut down this conversation because one player said to?

[themanhimself]

Scum

1. There is one immortal god who is Scum.
2. There are an unknown number of mortal high priests who are scum.
...
5. Scum have day chat through a QT.

There is a scum QT with daychat abilities.

it's not a certainty that the scum immortal knows who the scum are

Note: these are quoted in the order they were posted. Hito, what you said is obviously not true. There's no way Jack is telling the truth and if he's lying then how come he hasn't said it by now? And if he was lying then, how do we know he's not lying if he retracts it?

[themanhimself]

This limiting of his own, AND the towns vision to a tunnel can be classified as scummy.

I will not lynch Jack.

Why do I get suspicion for this and Equinox doesn't?

[themanhimself]

My main problem with the Equinox case is that doesn't really exist. He says Jack does a lot of gambits and so this is a gambit and he's not going to discuss it any further. If Jack does a lot of gambits, why couldn't this be a scum gambit? I've seen jackscum do a gambit before. And what's the evidence that it's a town gambit? The fact that it generated discussion? If it was a scum gambit it would have done the same thing, that's a textbook null-read. Something generating discussion has no bearing on it's intent, that seems obvious.

Simply put, there's no proof of Jack's intentions so we have to fall back on what we have.
A) He was lying, bad, bad sign and almost never pro-town.
B) The rule set-up makes that a dumb move for town
C) He changed his story later for no pro-town reason

This is all anti-town. Writing it off as a pro-town stunt because it might be is confirmation from lack of denial.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

This limiting of his own, AND the towns vision to a tunnel can be classified as scummy.

I will not lynch Jack.

Why do I get suspicion for this and Equinox doesn't?

Because you want us to lynch only one person.

Equinox wants us to look at the other 14.

Equinox has expanded the towns horizons, where as you are continually trying to close them.