Consulmaker II: the Pyrrhic War - Game over.

[SpyreX]

Yep you sure summed it up on me. Because I didn't think it made sense for them to be the same team.

God in heaven I'm back to thinking your town but make my teeth itch.

(The points on Nat are pretty much part and parcel of what I've been saying in regards to self-survival, fyi)

[Nathanael]

@Nathanael:

Who is scum with Parama?

Probably SensFan, but I'm not so sure anymore.

[Parama]

@Parama:

Who is scum with Nathanael?

Check the post I made exactly 1 day and 8 minutes ago, please.

[Parama]

MOD: FIX THAT TAG PLEASE

[SensFan]

@Nathanael:

Who is scum with Parama?

Probably SensFan, but I'm not so sure anymore.

Better speak up, son. Sunday's getting closer and closer.

[Magua]

@SpyreX:

Who is scum?

You've said Nathanael a lot. Who else?

[SpyreX]

Maybe Feysal - he's starting to give me the itch.
Maybe you.

I'd rather get THIS done and move to the next part when the next part comes.

[Magua]

Maybe Feysal - he's starting to give me the itch.
Maybe you.

I'd rather get THIS done and move to the next part when the next part comes.

I think there's value in forcing people to take positions before the event. Then you can compare to their position after the event, see if the progression feels natural.

You had a pretty big town read on Feysal D2. What changed?

[SpyreX]

Its more a twinge from the late day seeming pedal away from the miskill AND some weird dialogue today, especially in regards to the consul.

I'll detail it more when I'm home.

[Nathanael]

Better speak up, son. Sunday's getting closer and closer.

What exactly do you expect me to say?

[Shanba]

It's just so scummy it has to be town.

Heh. Joking aside, this is a fairly townie-ish thought process. Didn't you used to think Nathanael was town because he vetoed you? (That was also an awful piece of logic, by the way, but why has your position changed?)

Pretty much all of Nathanael's posts today have been spent trying to defame people who are either in a position of power today

Why would this be scummy? The second part yes, the first part no.

The Nathanael thing just doesn't FEEL right at this point. Like there are people who are suspicious of him for the whole VETO/EXECUTE thing day 1: in particular someone (sensfan I think) mentioned he found this scummy because it was taking away time from people talking by pushing the execution closer to deadline, which is the most bizarre and dumb thing ever.

Then there's the fact that everyone who suspects him seems to suspect him for different reasons. That's not something I've seen before, but compare, say, Parama's "this is how sucm push lynches" with Magua's "I do begrudge him for not changing any of his reads, as near as I can tell, in response to the Jack-scum flip, especially in regards to SensFan" with SpyreX's assertion that his posts have been survival focused. Either he's the worst scumbag ever or people ar esimply making shit up at this point. Like, I'm not sure I'm explaining myself properly, but I feel if there was actual scummy shit going on a) I would be able to see it and b) people wouldn't disagree about what it is to such an extent. So I'm wary.

I want someone to go down and tell me all the shit on him. Everything. So that I can make a judgement. I feel like I'm trying to do this in the dark here, trying to both divine why people are thinking he's scum and whether they're correct at the same time. Am I the dumb one? I don't see it.

[SensFan]

The Nathanael thing just doesn't FEEL right at this point. Like there are people who are suspicious of him for the whole VETO/EXECUTE thing day 1: in particular someone (sensfan I think) mentioned he found this scummy because it was taking away time from people talking by pushing the execution closer to deadline, which is the most bizarre and dumb thing ever.

Because I submitted an execution on Kat with something like a week left, I think. Then he delayed it a couple times, with the excuse that he was just giving more people time to talk before the Kat lynch. And then with like 3 days left, he pulled someone out of the blue and submitted an execution on them for really weak reasons, leaving everyone with a day to figure out if they like that lynch or not. That's very very scummy shit.

Then there's the fact that everyone who suspects him seems to suspect him for different reasons. That's not something I've seen before, but compare, say, Parama's "this is how sucm push lynches" with Magua's "I do begrudge him for not changing any of his reads, as near as I can tell, in response to the Jack-scum flip, especially in regards to SensFan" with SpyreX's assertion that his posts have been survival focused. Either he's the worst scumbag ever or people ar esimply making shit up at this point. Like, I'm not sure I'm explaining myself properly, but I feel if there was actual scummy shit going on a) I would be able to see it and b) people wouldn't disagree about what it is to such an extent. So I'm wary.

So wait, the fact that everyone who suspects him is able to bring up even more reasons, rather than just sheeping each other's reasons, is a

bad

thing? You're kidding, right?

I want someone to go down and tell me all the shit on him. Everything. So that I can make a judgement. I feel like I'm trying to do this in the dark here, trying to both divine why people are thinking he's scum and whether they're correct at the same time. Am I the dumb one? I don't see it.

Frankly, several people have given lots of reasons why they feel he's Scum. At this point, I think you can go back and look for yourself. Especially since he's probably going to swing anyways.

On that note, given that we only have a week between the Tribune phase and the Day deadline, I propose that, if Magua agrees, Nathanael should claim soon, rather than waiting for an official execution to be submitted on him, so that there's more time for discussing the merits of his claim and/or agreeing on a secondary target.

[The Fonz]

The Nathanael thing just doesn't FEEL right at this point. Like there are people who are suspicious of him for the whole VETO/EXECUTE thing day 1: in particular someone (sensfan I think) mentioned he found this scummy because it was taking away time from people talking by pushing the execution closer to deadline, which is the most bizarre and dumb thing ever.

Because I submitted an execution on Kat with something like a week left, I think. Then he delayed it a couple times, with the excuse that he was just giving more people time to talk before the Kat lynch. And then with like 3 days left, he pulled someone out of the blue and submitted an execution on them for really weak reasons, leaving everyone with a day to figure out if they like that lynch or not. That's very very scummy shit.

That's actually an excellent point, and probably could have done with being made earlier. Repeatedly vetoing for 'more time' then putting in new, little-discucsed target, forcing you/the tribs/the town to either go along with it, or veto and then have to come up with an even more rushed lynch, is legitimately scummy. (Of course, it's also worth pointing out that town wouldn't have been under such time pressure had you not spent the first few days trying to execute a guy because he was mean to you).

[SensFan]

(Of course, it's also worth pointing out that town wouldn't have been under such time pressure had you not spent the first few days trying to execute a guy because he was mean to you).

FWIW, I was executing him as a Policy Lynch, not as some sort of personal vendetta.

[Nathanael]

That's actually an excellent point, and probably could have done with being made earlier. Repeatedly vetoing for 'more time' then putting in new, little-discucsed target, forcing you/the tribs/the town to either go along with it, or veto and then have to come up with an even more rushed lynch, is legitimately scummy. (Of course, it's also worth pointing out that town wouldn't have been under such time pressure had you not spent the first few days trying to execute a guy because he was mean to you).

I delayed the lynch for more time, because I wanted to judge Katsuki better. I got a strong townread on him during that period and so decided not to lynch him. so I went for one of my top suspects (powerrox). nobody vetoed. so he died. and please don't forget that you called him obvscum when you first read this game, so probably you would have executed him too.

[ribwich]

Fonz and Sens - Does that mean you would be looking at Magua as the last mafia member if Nath flips scum? If not, why do you think Nath bothered to delay and eventually prevent the Kat lync? If yes, would you still look at Nath the same way if somehow Magua died before him and flipped town?

Nath - What happened during that period to get you a strong townread on Katsuki?

[Magua]

It's just so scummy it has to be town.

Heh. Joking aside, this is a fairly townie-ish thought process. Didn't you used to think Nathanael was town because he vetoed you? (That was also an awful piece of logic, by the way, but why has your position changed?)

Half of it is the difference in the reads Nathanael got between Katsuki and Lowell. Nath claims to have gotten a strong townread on Katsuki, which, while I admit to being biased because it's my slot, I just don't see as possible. Then he turns around and has no qualms about Lowell getting executed because Lowell is one of his top three picks. There's an inconsistency there that bothers me.

The other half is process of elimination. There's too many people who I think are townier than Nathanael, and Nathanael's actions D2-and-on do not feel particularly townie, given the flips.

The other other half (yes, 150%) is that I don't think Parama/Nathanael is town-attacking-town.

I want someone to go down and tell me all the shit on him. Everything. So that I can make a judgement. I feel like I'm trying to do this in the dark here, trying to both divine why people are thinking he's scum and whether they're correct at the same time. Am I the dumb one? I don't see it.

I would prefer, rather than convincing you, that you convince me someone is scummier.

[SensFan]

Fonz and Sens - Does that mean you would be looking at Magua as the last mafia member if Nath flips scum? If not, why do you think Nath bothered to delay and eventually prevent the Kat lync? If yes, would you still look at Nath the same way if somehow Magua died before him and flipped town?

I don't think there's any strong link between Nath and Kat's alignments. NathScum has obvious reasons to keep KatScum alive, but he also has very good reasons to keep KatTown alive.

On a somewhat tangential note, why do people keep trying to draw links between the alignments of two or more people who are all still alive? Not just in this game, but in general; I don't see what there is to gain from it.

[The Fonz]

Fonz and Sens - Does that mean you would be looking at Magua as the last mafia member if Nath flips scum? If not, why do you think Nath bothered to delay and eventually prevent the Kat lync? If yes, would you still look at Nath the same way if somehow Magua died before him and flipped town?

I would be looking at Magua for scum anyway, because he's part of that group whose actions seem to fit a scum hypothesis just fine, but not because of that. Buddy one noobish townie, kill off another seems fine for a scum's day of consulship.

@Nate: It didn't get vetoed, but note the actual argument in the post you were responding to: the last-minute execution was scummy because they either had to let it go, or submit a veto and an even more last-minute execution. And me having a scummy read on someone and scum killing them off aren't exactly mutually exclusive, are they? It's not so much the target as the timing.

[Nathanael]

@Nate: It didn't get vetoed, but note the actual argument in the post you were responding to: the last-minute execution was scummy because they either had to let it go, or submit a veto and an even more last-minute execution. And me having a scummy read on someone and scum killing them off aren't exactly mutually exclusive, are they? It's not so much the target as the timing.

of course not.
I had timing problem myself.
since town seemed to want katsuki lynch so bad, I just tried to get a little more time to discuss.
then I figured that Powerrox was scummier than Katsuki and executed him.
I would have done that earlier, but I only got my scumread on powerrox and my townread on katsuki last minute.

[SensFan]

Good to know that you don't deny forcing Town into a last-minute decision.
Also good to know that you have decided not to claim, which will give Town less time to discuss today as well.

[ribwich]

Nath - What happened during that period to get you a strong townread on Katsuki?

[Feysal]

I want someone to go down and tell me all the shit on him. Everything. So that I can make a judgement. I feel like I'm trying to do this in the dark here, trying to both divine why people are thinking he's scum and whether they're correct at the same time. Am I the dumb one? I don't see it.

I've seen you ask this multiple times, yet no one has answered. Perhaps you should ask Parama directly. He was the one who started the suspicion on Nathanael, and has been consistently pushing for his lynch.

I will now give my own take of the Nathanael case. Before I start, I want to make it abundantly clear that I don't agree on Nathanael being scum. If this post would have a title, it would be "Why Parama thinks Nathanael is scum, and why the case is bad".

For starters, some of Parama's early posts on day one (I've left out the parts not relevant to this):

Nathanael is scum
...
The Nath read is partly because of his fail logic, but I've come to expect that from the player. However, it's especially bad in this game - he's pretty much trying to line up lynches from the looks of things. Bleh I probably didn't say that the way I wanted to but whatever.
...
Nath 122 calls something that wasn't an attack an attack. Paranoid much? OH LOOK HE VOTES MY OTHER SCUM READ FOR TRIBUNE SOON AFTER. DING DING DING DING DING PARAMA WINS AGAIN. EDIT: He even re-votes later. Uuuuuh.

This is where it began. Parama declared a scumread of Nathanael, based on three things. One, for lining up lynches. Second, because Nathanael pointed his finger of suspicion at chesskid3, who was demanding him to explain why he voted Lowell instead of himself. Third, because Nathanael voted my predecessor, Rabies, for Tribune.

The first point I'll get back to. The second point I don't agree with, since chesskid3 was clearly being irrational. He asked Nathanael why he was voting Lowell instead of himself, and when SensFan pointed out that voting for yourself was useless (doubly so if you're already a Consul), chesskid3 really jumped and got defensive. He never directly attacked Nathanael, that is true, but I can see how Nathanael could see it as if chesskid3 thought his vote was scummy. I really don't see Nathanael as the paranoid one in this episode, that label goes to chesskid3. Parama would not say so of course, since he got chesskid3's slot.

The third point I would disagree with on general principle, even if it were not Nathanael voting my predecessor Rabies. Making your scumread dependent on your read on someone else, who may or may not be scum, is rather useless. After you know some alignments from flips there is a point to it, before that looking at vote history really has little meaning. From my personal point of view, I can say that this relation is a null tell, as I am town. So was Lowell, Nathanael's first vote. Of course the town does not have my knowledge of my alignment, so you don't have to share my view.

As for the first point about lining up lynches, Parama was asked what he meant. This was his response, after he was asked the third time:

I'll answer

when I give damn

.
I'm not going to bother pushing a case on someone who's unlynchable today.

What pro-scum reason would there be for lying about being consulmaker?

Supremely unhelpful, and completely devoid of town motivation. If I had a scum suspect I was pushing as strongly as Parama was, I would make sure to present my case before the night, to avoid the risk of it dying with me. And yes, Parama had repeatedly accused Nathanael of being scum.

And now we get to the full case, as it was when Parama finally posted it, the next day:

I really see no reason why we should not execute one of {Jack, ribwich}. As none of them took their claim back, it is clear that one of them has to be scum.
Since lynching the consulmaker is in no way worse than lynching a VT, we basically have a 50% chance of hitting scum without any drawback. You will never get such a high

a priori

(that is, without relying on scum/town-tells) percentage elsewhere.

And if both are town, we just lost two lynches based on a flawed dichotomy. Why you pushed the consulmaker lynch on D1 is beyond me.

This is what Parama called fail logic. This makes perfect sense to me, and it made perfect sense to scotmany12 and Lowell, who posted before Nathanael. Lowell went so far as to say this:

So... we already have a claim and counterclaim? We kill them, right? What's hard about this?

Inexplicably, Parama gave Lowell a town read, although he had supported lynching the Consulmaker claimants, just like scotmany12 and Nathanael. I call this consistency failure. Even if Parama had been consistent in treating this as a scumtell, I would still not agree with this being lining up lynches.

Come to think of it, why have we not pressured Parama for saying Jack and ribwich were both town? That was a major reason for the suspicion on reckoner, if I recall. Given how strongly Parama supported this view, you'd think that he'd have brought it up when Nathanael was defending Jack, but no. Parama barely mentions Jack at all after this case. Maybe he realized how silly the idea that they were both town was, but he never acknowledged that either.

PS:

FoS: chesskid

, for his nonsense-attack on me.

This supposed "attack" was chesskid3 (my player slot) saying he disagreed with Nathanael's tribune vote on Lowell (in less subtle language, of course). That he took it as an attack is scum paranoia.

I already explained my view on this, chesskid3 appears much more paranoid than Nathanael to me. Moving on.

Case two, Jack and ribwich are scum: the consulmaker chooses one out of each group, best case both consuls survive and we know two scum, worst case one consul dies and we lynch one of {Jack, ribwich} (the one whose group the consul was not in). Extremely unlikely worst case, both consuls die, in this case we look at the players who died, if there are only two players, it's as if we had the consuls, and will know everything. Should there be three deaths, probably the third consulmaker should out himself.

This is plain and simple filler. There is no way 2 scum would both claim consulmaker and cc each other.

Actually, I rather like how thorough Nathanael is being here. If you're exploring all possibilities in a dilemma such as this, you might as well cover the extremely unlikely ones too. Because, every once in a while, scum try something extremely unlikely precisely because town is unlikely to consider it, or scum just do something extremely stupid. That said, I consider this case a null tell.

Case three, Jack and ribwich are both town. I am not going to consider this case because in this case one of them is a complete idiot. The only possible way this could be is if the mod had forced one townie to claim consulmaker. (

Mod, is there anything bastardly in this game?

)

Watch and learn:
Jacktown claims consulmaker to cover for the real consulmaker and try to attract a kill as a VT.
Ribwichtown the idiot ccs because he is unable to process this simple thought process and ruins the entire point of Jack's claim.
That Nath doesn't even try and consider this option FROM HIS POSITION shows that he's aiming towards the dichotomy and is scum trying to set up two mislynches based on claims alone. Even a 3rd grader has enough of the brain to come up with the solution, "Oooh they could both be town right? Right? Riiiight?"

This point of course lost all value when Jack flipped scum, and it never had much. Like ribwich said immediately after this was posted, protecting the Consulmaker is pointless, since it is not a real power role, and it made no sense to think they were both town.

FoS: SensFan

This random FoS now gives Nath the ability to veto every single lynch Sens tried to push without looking bad for it. Clever, huh?

What Parama is basically saying here is that it is scummy to suspect your fellow Consul. No consideration given to Nathanael possibly having a real scumread on SensFan, who Parama gave a town read. I wonder why he did? If Nathanael was initially scummy for fail logic, and SensFan was not when he suggested a plan that would make a confirmed scum Consul, there is something amiss. Parama did not explain his read on SensFan at all in his post of initial reads.

VETO: chesskid's execution.

PS: SensFan is scum.

Like that! See? Seeeeee?
It's funny because Nath put up that FoS of chesskid3 earlier, and chesskid3 doesn't tend to do much to get rid of those. It's like he's forgetting his own reads. OH WAIT.

I really can't understand Parama's thought process here. He is implying Nathanael should look scummy for vetoing SensFan's executions, and the one he picks as an example is his own slot? What the hell? Why should vetoing your slot's execution be a scumtell? If you think Nathanael was angling for town credit when he saved you, say so. But then, he later tried to execute you himself. Yeah, clearly not looking for town credit from saving you. This point makes absolutely no sense.

The single thing about this case I could agree with is Nathanael's indecisiveness about chesskid3 and then Parama. First suspecting him, then vetoing his execution, and finally trying to execute Parama. I asked Nathanael about this, he explained it in #805, and I accept his response as making sense.

why do you think that SensFan is town?

Why do you think SensFan is scum? Saying something over and over doesn't make it true.

Nice dodge. There is, and was, plenty of reason to consider SensFan scummy. I detailed my read on him in one of my first posts, and there had been discussion in thread on the subject before either of us replaced in. Also, note the hypocricy in Nathanael saying over and over SensFan was scum, when Parama spent day one doing exactly the same thing, repeating over and over that Nathanael was scum, and outright refusing to explain why.

Parama, mind some thoughts?

Yes I would and I did and I have no clue why you asked this less than 24 hours after I replaced in even after I promised to put up content shortly after which I did oh joy. It's like you're looking for reasons to suspect me

Looking for content from a new replacement is not a bad thing, is it?

EXECUTE: SensFan!

Spoiler: ...

Yes, I know he is unlynchable. I just wanted to draw attention to how scummy he is.

Still don't see any explanation.

Is this not obvious? This was Nathanael calling attention to his scumread, the same thing Parama kept doing with Nathanael. He even purposely misquoted this very post for the purpose.

VETO: KATSUKI's EXECUTION

EXECUTE: KATSUKI

"LET'S MAKE IT LOOK LIKE ME AND KATS ARE SCUM TOGETHER SO THAT:
A. If Kats gets lynched, I look like town for trying to delay the lynch!
B. If I get lynched, Kats looks like my scumbuddy!"
Yeah. I already went over this.

This is the point I hate most of all. This is one of those catch-22 points where you're damned if you do and damned if you don't. Here Parama is obviously working from the assumption that Nathanael is scum, and only considers anti-town motives for his delaying. First of all, delaying the execution to allow for more discussion is a pro-town thing to do. It is ridiculous to say that Nathanael was trying to delay the execution so that there would be no time for discussion close to deadline, when if he had not delayed it there would have been no discussion at all. Eventually powerrox93 was executed two days before deadline, and not because there was no time for discussion. It was more like discussion dried up.

VETO: KATSUKI'S EXECUTION

EXECUTE: KATSUKI

See above.

Yes, see above.

VETO: KATSUKI'S EXECUTION

We are not executing Katsuki today.

EXECUTE: Parama

'nuff said.

By this point, I wish you had been executed. That would give us insight into the motives of two players, Nathanael and SensFan, both of whom tried to execute your slot. It is not too late though.

Also, Parama is the most obv-town player in the game FFS.

Tell me how Parama is obv-town!

Tell me why you think I'm scum?
You do nothing but ask questions of people without providing answers yourself.

Again with the dodge. Again with the hypocricy. Parama accuses Nathanael of not providing answers, while at the same time he does not provide an answer. Real cute. In my experience, Nathanael has answered any questions directed at him, while Parama has kept dodging them.

This also reminds me to note how dramonic, confirmed scum, was saying how obvtown chesskid3 and Parama were. Repeatedly. There were some more things to my case on Parama too, read it in full if you like in #840.

This is the original case on Nathanael in all its uglyness. Who would want to sheep this? Not me. Not ribwich either, based on his comment in #706. I can't recall if others have commented, but if not, now would be an excellent time.

Of course, more things happened later. Nathanael defended Jack quite strongly, and was wrong. He was not alone in that, and while I could imagine this being a desperate attempt to save a fellow scum after the loss of dramonic, I don't. Too obvious, and Nathanael's conviction was too strong.

The Nathanael thing just doesn't FEEL right at this point. Like there are people who are suspicious of him for the whole VETO/EXECUTE thing day 1: in particular someone (SensFan I think) mentioned he found this scummy because it was taking away time from people talking by pushing the execution closer to deadline, which is the most bizarre and dumb thing ever.

I'm glad you agree. And yes, it was SensFan, post #829.

Then there's the fact that everyone who suspects him seems to suspect him for different reasons. That's not something I've seen before, but compare, say, Parama's "this is how scum push lynches" with Magua's "I do begrudge him for not changing any of his reads, as near as I can tell, in response to the Jack-scum flip, especially in regards to SensFan" with SpyreX's assertion that his posts have been survival focused. Either he's the worst scumbag ever or people are simply making shit up at this point. Like, I'm not sure I'm explaining myself properly, but I feel if there was actual scummy shit going on a) I would be able to see it and b) people wouldn't disagree about what it is to such an extent. So I'm wary.

I think this is a combination of two things, scum making up reasons, and town seeing things due to confirmation bias. Parama in particular has been saying Nathanael was scum all game, and SensFan also had a short altercation with Nathanael over his reason for vetoing chesskid3's execution day one, on page 33. These are the things this case is made of. What is at the core is Parama's case in #700 though. That was where the ball started rolling.

Because I submitted an execution on Kat with something like a week left, I think. Then he delayed it a couple times, with the excuse that he was just giving more people time to talk before the Kat lynch. And then with like 3 days left, he pulled someone out of the blue and submitted an execution on them for really weak reasons, leaving everyone with a day to figure out if they like that lynch or not. That's very very scummy shit.

You submitted Katsuki's execution eight days before deadline. Parama by Nathanael was five days before deadline, and powerrox93 four days before. And powerrox93 did not appear from out of the blue, he was considered scummy by many players, including myself. And Jack. In retrospect, I should have paid attention to the twinge in my gut when Jack agreed with powerrox93 being executed. But, I said nothing.

So wait, the fact that everyone who suspects him is able to bring up even more reasons, rather than just sheeping each other's reasons, is a

bad

thing? You're kidding, right?

Given how horribly bad the original case was, no one should be sheeping that. The reasons other players have given are not really additions to a case, since the original case is so weak it should not be dignified by calling it a case. Thing is, no one has ever put together any kind of credible case on Nathanael, these added reasons just don't add up into a case by themselves. If there was such a case, then maybe I could believe these observations from people were real signs of scumminess from Nathanael. As things are, I believe Nathanael is town, and scum are trying to push a mislynch on him. Parama would be my first suspect for this. If it weren't for people having townreads on chesskid3, I'd think Parama would've been executed already.

On that note, given that we only have a week between the Tribune phase and the Day deadline, I propose that, if Magua agrees, Nathanael should claim soon, rather than waiting for an official execution to be submitted on him, so that there's more time for discussing the merits of his claim and/or agreeing on a secondary target.

Good to know that you don't deny forcing Town into a last-minute decision.
Also good to know that you have decided not to claim, which will give Town less time to discuss today as well.

Explain to me why Nathanael should claim? The only unclaimed power role we know of is the vigilante, and if he claims it, he is certain to be nightkilled. If you suspect he could be the vigilante you should not be pushing him at all.

I would suggest executing Parama. If he is scum, and I believe he is, that would go a long way to clear SensFan and Nathanael who tried to execute him. That is a significant potential benefit from a single execution. However, I will also second ribwich's question about what made Nathanael believe Katsuki/Magua was town. I could maybe guess, but that is for Nathanael to answer.

This became a real mother of a wall post, and took hours to write and research. Hope it was not wasted effort.

[Parama]

I'm not responding to any of it, so it's definitely wasted.

[Feysal]

I'm not responding to any of it, so it's definitely wasted.

I might've known, you did not respond the last time I put together my case on you either. Odd that despite this attitude, you still accused Nathanael of not providing answers.