Mafia 123 - Outdoorsmen Mafia 2 GAME OVER

[nhammen]

/confirm

[nhammen]

Vote: Evilpacman18

I don't like that you start out the game voting for everyone you've played with before, honestly. It seems like you're setting them up where they can't vote you without OMGUSing, and they also happen to be the ones that know you best, and thus will have the best chance out of all of us as pegging you as scum. Although, I find it VERY interesting that the person you ended up voting was DemonHybrid. Perhaps he's your scumpartner, considering you confirmed at about the same time AND you happened to vote for him with your first RVS? That's just a coincidence I'm not willing to believe.

This logic seems to be a bit too much of a jump for me to believe. But whatever floats your boat. At least it looks like a Townie type of leap.

Or I just went down the playerlist and voted for everyone I knew in the order they appeared. And I don't mind if they vote me. OMGUS is ok. It's RVS.

This makes me believe you are annoyed Town.

Parama. Easier to say.

This, however, draws other conclusions. Why give a reason at all? Although, this is a very small tell, so I'm more inclined towards Town right now.

If EPM is scum, so is Guderian.

Consider my scumdar pinged, DemonHybrid.

Seems to me like you're trying to distance from your RVS vote... It seems odd that you would choose to make your vote so logical and mechanical as opposed to all of your other games where you were town...

Wait. Voting based off of players that you have played with before is considered logical now?

By the way, the town reaction is "oh, then I hope EPM is not scum then", not "WHAT HOW DARE YOU GOOD SIR VOTE, LYNCH FUCKING DIE!"

But a Townie wouldn't say that first one, even if they were thinking it. In fact, having been a Townie in a similar situation previously, I thought of attacking the person that made this accusation. So... yeah. And now that I think of it, having been in another similar situation before that, I acted very similarly to Guderian, except without the vote, at first, but still having the "are you serious" comment.

I also like how that question was extremely rhetorical. I'm becoming more confident with the EPM vote by the second.

I'm trying to decide between dumb town and scum with you DemonHybrid. I have a question for you, why do you consider rhetorical questions a scumtell?

@Nacho 40 This seems almost too confident... slightly decreased Townie points.

The question is not rhetorical.

"Are you serious? If so, you should be lynched. *votes*"

Not rhetorical at all. Nope.

Not a bit.

Nah ah.

And why is it a scumtell? You seem to be hunting for excuses to vote, rather than hunting for scum!

VOTE: DemonHybrid

Will catch up on the remaining posts after I finish dinner.

[nhammen]

@Guderian 43: I agree with this post.

My EPM vote was not serious at the time. So, you're wrong about that. My confirmation that if EPM is scum, then you are IS serious and what I was talking about. So you're wrong.

Interesting comment. Because looking back, you used this nonserious vote to springboard into accusations against other players. And yet, by the time of this post at least, you have not made what you consider to be a serious vote. In fact, you are just piggybacking off of other players' accusations against EPM, while denying that your own accusations are serious. Wow!

I did not set up a chain of lynches, either. "If EPM is scum, then you are" only sets up your lynch if...well, EPM is scum. And you seem to be freaking out on the premise that I made that up. Which means you're soft defending EPM. Cool.

I'm not understanding this section of this post. What do you mean by soft defending? Wouldn't he be soft-implying that he believes EPM is scum, whatever his alignment is?

You can thank EPM for setting himself up as scum and then including you through a mind-fuck game. IF EPM is scum, then so are you. If he is not, I need to reread you, but you've contradicted something already, so I don't have high hopes for you, but we'll see.

You are assuming that your logic is absolutely correct. This is bothering me quite a bit. Also, you are saying that if EPM is scum, then Guderian is scum. If EPM is not scum, then Guderian looks scummy. How is this not lining up lynches?

By doing something like that, ASSUMING EPM is scum, he would probably include one of his buddies. Sorry EPM, but you aren't the most experienced of players, so if you were scum, you'd probably do something like that.

Ummm... I kinda assumed that his votes were for people he had played with before. So, what if he hadn't played with any of his scumbuddies before?

At the time when I asked the question, EPM was already under some fire. So I asked him to pick a name that appealed to him. And he picked Parama, so I chose you as his buddy, ASSUMING that he is scum. The reasoning for this is since he's already under fire, he would want to distance himself subconsciously from his partner, so he picked Parama, assuming that I'd associate EPM with him.

Lots of assumptions here. But this part is just bad logic, not a scumtell.

I'm really disliking the fact that after a couple pages with little not many people posting people are making decisions on who's scum and town already. I haven't played any games except from newbie games on this site but you can't automatically decide who's scum and who isn't...

...I have never been in a game where people make srsface scumlists on page 2. I really have no idea what to make of this.

...

......

I'll keep voting DH though.

This bothers me too. But what bothers me even more, is that both of these posts carried absolutely no information whatsoever.

Wow you guys made some quick judgments. Sorry I'm just now getting started, I thought this game wasn't supposed to start until today.

Personally, I think a 10-3-3 game sounds a bit unreasonable, especially if there's a serial killer too. That would mean we're looking at potentially 4 deaths every night/day (including lynchings), which could mean the game ends after night 2. A 12-2-2 game sounds reasonable if there's a serial killer. I suppose it could be possible that we've got a 11-3-2 game. Is there anything that says the mafia teams will be even? Either way, I think we're looking for an absolute maximum of 5 scum (although more likely 4) and a possible serial killer. So we're looking for a maximum of 6 lynches. Hopefully less.

Even with that many lynches, it is unlikely that the town could win without cross-killings between mafia, or without the serial killer taking out scum. But I think this means we might want to take our time on this day and make the best possible judgment. None of you have enough information yet to be certain about who you're lynching. We cannot afford to mislynch this early just because you think somebody said something semi scummy in their RVS.

[/b]Vote: Untrod Tripod.[/b] Because I don't want your stupid hint.

Aaaaand, another post containing no real info. Well, other than setup speculation anyways. Have any comment on the game itself? Also, what is this "stupid hint" you are referring to?

Am i missing something? Where is everyone getting the idea about 10-3-3, we haven't even confirmed ONE mafia member yet how can we know how many there are? Seriously we need to focus on getting the scum out and worry less about how many there are or were just going to not get anything done and when the deadline goes we have no lynch.

Am I missing something? Where are the comments about the actual players in the game that you should be posting?

I said "Guderian is scum if EPM is scum". So what does he have to worry about unless he has inside info? His reactions ARE scummy, especially when he's defending against something that he doesn't need to defend against.

If he is Town, he has to worry about the possibility that EPM is scum, and people believe your horrible logic.

is moot. It was a subconscious mind game.

I like Parama's suspicion of me and pegging Nacho as town. He's using his brain. But he's a very sharp scum player as well, so I have a slight eye on him, but I don't think we have much to worry about. Reads have not changed.

Maybe you are just dumb Town. Hmmm... I still think you are scummy enough to hold my vote for now.

I dunno
UT
ender

Tyler is scummy because he has a lot of filler, but not any substance. So much info is already on the table and he tosses it aside to talk set-up. I'm not ruling him as concrete scum quite yet.

You may want to take a look at the two players you listed under "I dunno". Specifically think about why they are under I dunno. Also, why did you single out Tyler for this behavior?

wow feel bad to be joining in three pages late but I totally missed the start of this one.

Mod, could we get a votecount please?

That'll help me catch up. At a glance, don't like EPM or DH but I do need to read more carefully before getting in depth. Also, I don't think it's likely that it would be 10-3-3, its unfair. I don't think a mod going for a balanced game would throw that at us. 12-2-2 is more likely, but there is no guarantee that the two mafia groups are the same size. Maybe one is larger, but less powered. All my role pm said was that there was two groups, no specifics.

Aaaand that makes four.

More to come

[nhammen]

[/b]Vote: Untrod Tripod.[/b] Because I don't want your stupid hint.

Also, what is this "stupid hint" you are referring to?

Oh my god! It was an avatar vote! Urgh! You seriously need to comment on the game.

[nhammen]

@EPM: Nothing Nacho has done is even remotely scummy. Why would I even consider him a scum suspect? Deflect more.

Not saying consider him a scum suspect. Saying don't consider him obvtown.

...If he's not obvtown, then he SHOULD be considered a scum suspect. Everyone should be suspected until considered obvtown. You're either town or you aren't.

Oh my god! You really can't read! You essentially just agreed with EPM here, and at the same time argued with him! You know what? I am deciding that DH is just dumb Town.
UNVOTE:

On another note, this game is starting to make me quite annoyed. I should probably stop posting now, before I say something I will regret.

Exactly. He's not obvtown. Could be scum. Not saying he's likely to be, not saying I have a case on him or the evidence with which to build one. Just everyone's got him on their town lists. That's never good for town. If he is scum, he's already in position to coast his team to the win.

I believe the text you are looking for in the last two sentences is "That's never good for scum. If he is town then scum can not get rid of him through lynching, and must use a nightkill that they would rather have target a power role." Your comment in this quote is very wrong. And it indicates uneasiness about nacho being on multiple Town lists, which is something that can be a very clear scumtell.

I don't think anyone is closed to the idea that he could be scum. He just has not done one single scummy thing so far this game.

I believe you have fundamentally misunderstood the concept of a Town list. You do not put someone on a Town list because the haven't done anything scummy. You put them on a Town list because they have done something clearly protown. EPM is telling Parama that nacho has not done anything clearly protown (which I disagree with), so he should not be on a Town list. Obviously some players disagree,and would definitely not like nacho to be lynched.

One post and I'm labelled as having a lot of filler? You say we have so much info in the table, but I'm more inclined to believe most of the "information" is completely fabricated by overzealous players. We're two pages in and people are already building scum lists. Some people haven't even posted yet. Not only do we not have enough information to have a scumlist, the informatio we do have is based solely on overreactions.

We are not nearly as well informed as you're pretending we are.

And this type of response is NOT HELPING!

My anger is increasing, I need to stop soon, before I break my brain.

Yeah, not going to take your word for it. In this specific case, it means one of two things:

1. It IS OMGUS, which means you're lying
2. You're soft defending EPM

Both are scummy and punishable by death by hanging. However, if EPM flips town, I would need to reread; I address this coming up.

1. Debatable (which is surprising; most accusations of OMGUS are clearly false). OMGUS is returning a vote only because the person voted you. He used an argument that he believed justified this vote. This argument is that your argument justifying your vote is horrible play. I agree with that assessment, but don't see it as a reason to vote. Equating bad play and scumminess is a pet peeve of mine. The possibility for debate arises because his argument is centered on the reason for your vote of him, so it could be seen as OMGUS.
2. What does that even mean? Well, I already asked, so I will assume that there is some answer later.
3. You cannot just say something is scummy. You say that both 1 and 2 are scummy, but do not justify this. Why are these things scumtells? Use that brain and THINK rather than mindlessly using some acronym to attack someone.

--- With 2 scum teams, DH isn't particularly concerned with who is scum as long as he can implicate others in that persons fall. This reaffirms why I think youre scum. It may very well turn out that EPM is scum, but since it wont be from your faction, you dont mind who the next person you implicate and lynch is.

This is basically saying the exact same thing Parama did, only without the thought process behind it and with more of the sheeping. Bad. By the way, you haven't said a word about what Nacho and iamausername have said about your case on me.

You are correct, except for the fact that Guderian first mentioned this idea in post 47 and Parama mentioned it in post 54. Speaking of which, I really liked Parama's post 54. What did nacho and iamausername say about Guderian's case that you would like him to respond to. Because on isoing these players I see some rhetorical questions from nacho (oooh! what a scumtell!) and he had already answered iamausername's comment.

You know what? This is going to be the last post I respond to today.

If EPM were to flip scum, you would be my next vote. If he were to flip town, I would reread. This is a case of you putting words into my mouth and saying something that is completely fabricated,

you absolute hypocrite

.

Except for the fact that in post 46 you said that if EPM is not scum then Guderian has "contradicted something already, so I don't have high hopes for you". So, you HAVE said that if EPM is not scum, then Guderian looks scummy. Which looks like lining up lynches to me. But of course he is putting words into your mouth.

--- ok ender, got any thoughts. Is DH scummy, or am i crazy? What is EPM. Do you like parama?

Desperate ally searching

Yurch!
What in the-
How could you possibly-
You do realize that ender has posted even LESS comments than your suspect tyler?
These are a good series of questions.
What-
How?
I-
You
Yurch!
Yurgimiscuchin
yaoshoahdfophaldhfl;abdf;lba!$#%@&$*&(^&);ldbl;ahdfahsfhlASDGHFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU




VOTE: ender

[nhammen]

I think I was taking this a little too seriously and need to calm down a bit, so I will wait until tomorrow to finish. Currently at the top of page 4. Also, my vote for ender was for the obvious reason of having posted no content so far.

[nhammen]

Rhetorical questions dismiss scumhunting and instead favors a bullying attitude over finding information, so that's why it's a scumtell. Notice that he didn't wait to find out whether I was serious or not; he just didn't care.

In my opinion, bullying is a playstyle tell and not a scumtell. But I can see why you believe this.

Calling people town in an effort to get them to like you is a common scum tactic to make it appear hard to lynch 'the nice guy'.

You are so horribly fabricating things now that are patently false its ridiculous.

Before I reply to this, I'd like you to be more specific on what you are referring to in this quote.

DH, I found a book about your situation

Image removed

hope this helps

hugs and kisses,
Untrod

This sorta looks like someone sitting on the side and enjoying others fight.

Why would he freak out to me saying "I think you are scum IF EPM is scum" if there was no connection?

Because he is worried about the possibility of EPM being scum? Maybe. Or maybe because what you were doing did appear to be an attack? Multiple possibilities.

You are assuming that your logic is absolutely correct. This is bothering me quite a bit. Also, you are saying that if EPM is scum, then Guderian is scum. If EPM is not scum, then Guderian looks scummy. How is this not lining up lynches?

Size removed

I HAVE SAID THIS LIKE 5 TIMES. IF EPM IS SCUM, I BELIEVE GUDERIAN IS SCUM. IF EPM IS TOWN, I NEED TO REREAD GUDERIAN. 5 TIMES.

But the quote I am replying to shows you saying SOMETHING DIFFERENT, and THAT is what I am referring to. You can keep saying that B is what you believe, but that doesn't change the fact that you said A. Although, scum will rarely act the way you have, so...

He probably wouldn't have made a post like that. Nacho summed it up quite nicely when he talked meta with EPM, look back.

Except I really don't see how that meta shows what nacho suggests it shows.

I never said I would vote Guderian today, and I probably won't. So what reasoning does he have to freak out like this?

This is one thing I am wondering about. Why wont you vote Guderian today? I would think that logically, with the viewpoint you have, he would make a better vote than EPM.

So, obviously people should only be concerned with the here and now, even if you have stated what your plans for the future are. You are saying that the townie thing to do was to ignore what you said???

You may want to take a look at the two players you listed under "I dunno". Specifically think about why they are under I dunno. Also, why did you single out Tyler for this behavior?

Because they haven't been involved enough with the people I have reads on to have a clear read on them?

And did you not read why I suspected tyler, considering it's the SAME reason why you're suspecting him?

If you're wondering why him and not anyone else, at least everyone else has at least commented SOMETHING on someone involved in the game so far. Even UT and Ross. Tyler has not said a thing about anyone, instead preferring to comment on the setup.

It is the same reason. What I'm pointing out is that there are FOUR players that have exhibited the same behavior, and yet, you are only going after one of them. Why? Also, UT has commenented on people? Where do you see this? Also, what about ender? I can see that Ross has made a comment about not liking EPM or DH (with no reason), so that is at least a little bit, but I'm not considering it as valid until he gives reasons. Those four players are all highly scummy to me, because they have all posted useless junk.

My read throughs leave me suspicious of Demon, because he's jumping on everything waaay too seriously. All the stuff about EPM's votes being suspicious... I don't see that. It seemed like a pretty innocent Random Vote to me.

The whole conversation so far has been pretty ridiculous. I feel like I'm standing in the middle of a Mexican stand off. Everybody's drawing their weapons and are making judgments on people based on tiny, tiny amounts of information. I think if everyone would take a step back and chill out a bit, we might be able to come to a more rational, informed decision. Because any scum/town lists are nothing but poor speculation at this point.

nhammen, I voted for Untrod Tripod just to throw my Random Vote out there. I'm actually going to go ahead and

Unvote

now. I still don't think I have enough information to label anyone as absolute scum, but I'd say the HoS is on Demon. I don't like his jumpy nature and snap judgments.

So you are essentially saying that bad play is equal to scummy play. I have stated before that this is a pet peeve of mine. Also, Day 1 is going to be speculation. That's how things happen. At least you have some comments here.

2nd of all, what about my post don't you get? EPM is fencesitting, saying "Don't say that nacho is obvtown, but don't consider him a scum suspect".

And what about my post don't you get? Because what I'm saying is that you completely misread his post. That is NOT what EPM was saying, and if you looked at his post in context, you would have realized this. What he was saying is that he wanted Parama to take nacho off of his (Parama's) Town list, because while he(nacho) hadn't done anything scummy, he(nacho) hasn't done anything townie either (in EPM's opinion). And your reply says that if he hasn't done anything Townie, then he shouldn't be on a town list, which is EXACTLY what EPM was saying. Please try understanding a conversation before replying to it.

Both 1 and 2 are scummy. 1 is scummy not because of the OMGUS itself, but because he denied that it was OMGUS....okay, that's fine and good, but he's also denying that he's overreacting about my logic on EPM+Guderian, which would have to mean that he's OMGUSing.

2 is scummy because....well, he's overreacting. He's basically admitting that he's overreacting about my EPM+Guderian logic. I don't see what's so hard to get about this.

Question: is overreacting scummy? If so, why are you voting for EPM rather than Guderian? If not, why are you using it as an argument?

You are correct, except for the fact that Guderian first mentioned this idea in post 47 and Parama mentioned it in post 54. Speaking of which, I really liked Parama's post 54. What did nacho and iamausername say about Guderian's case that you would like him to respond to. Because on isoing these players I see some rhetorical questions from nacho (oooh! what a scumtell!) and he had already answered iamausername's comment.

Wrong again. Parama's logic insinuates that Guderian and EPM are on one team, while I'm on the other. Guderian insinuates that I'm scum and that there are two teams, with an unknown on my team and 2 unknowns on the other.

So where is the sheeping you mentioned, if they are now two different ideas? Earlier, you said that Guderian is sheeping Parama, and when I point out that Guderian had the idea first, you now say that they were completely different ideas. So which is it?

Yes, he is putting words into my mouth, and so are you. I said I would re-read. I can say that his play hasn't been too stellar at the moment, but it's nothing to vote him over, and it's certainly not going to mean that I'm going to auto-vote him if EPM flips town, assuming EPM is lynched Day 1.

Your earlier quote heavily implied that you felt that it was something to vote him over. But I guess that whole thing was just a misunderstanding on everyones part?

Yeah, well answer me this. Why ender and why no one else?

No, I mean, in regards to Guderian asking ender if he was crazy or not. Why did Guderian ask ender that and no one else?

I dunno. I have a possible explanation, but I don't want to answer for Guderian and give him a way out if it was done with ill intentions.

Vote: Nacho

- He wasn't originally aware of there being two scum factions.

Interesting. I isoed nacho, and in his iso #6, you clearly see an example of this. I shall join you on the nacho train.
VOTE: nacho

[nhammen]

Although, I must say I have one problem with this thought concerning nacho, but I will wait until he responds to this new accusation before posting that problem.

[nhammen]

@mod, I voted for nacho before that votecount.

However, I am now unvoting (and working on a post to explain why).

UNVOTE:

[nhammen]

I could vote Guderian, but I think that if that happens and he flips scum, this doesn't tell us a thing about EPM. I think that if EPM, who is scummy enough in my opinion, flips scum, this strengthens the case on Guderian. If he flips town, that means that I might have been off about something and am potentially avoiding lynching a townie.

And if we lynch Guderian, and he flips Town, then according to your logic, that shows that EPM is Town. Not that your logic is correct, but I'd say this is better. Plus, you have said that if EPM is scum, then Guderian is Town, but there is no information if EPM is Town, so by your logic, Guderian is more likely to be scum than EPM.

So, obviously people should only be concerned with the here and now, even if you have stated what your plans for the future are. You are saying that the townie thing to do was to ignore what you said???

First, how is it bad that I was planning to lynch two scum in a row, ONLY IF the first person flipped scum? If EPM were to flip town, I would re-read to either prevent a townie death or to be absolutely sure that the case against Guderian holds enough water to still follow it. I'm not perfect, still far from an "amazing" mafia player.

Except, heres the thing: what if you are wrong? I see that as a valid reason to get a bit concerned, but you say that since it would happen tomorrow, it doesn't matter, which is complete nonsense. It does still matter. You have said that is what your plan is multiple times. So why should he ignore it now, if you plan to go through with it later? I do not understand that comment of yours, that he has no reason to freak out because it wouldn't happen today. Complete nonsense.

Take a look at everyone's first "serious" post. UT says "I basically have no clue what is going on, but I'm comfortable with my DH vote" which is still a little bit. ender has commented on me, if only slightly. Tyler's first serious post contained nothing but setup speculation, and no names except for UT, who....you guessed it, joked around about setup speculation. It's not an arbitrary pick.

And what about ender? He posted even less than tyler. At least tyler had some game-related content; ender just said he doesnt know why people are behaving the way they are. Although, he is being replaced, so I guess he was just completely lost.

Guderian states idea #1. (me on one team, ??? as the other scum)
Parama states idea #2 (me on one team, Guderian on the other)
Guderian parrots idea #2 (Parama's onto something, maybe DH is on one team and someone he suspects is on the other, namely EPM), you know, the part that you said I was correct about.

Except that Guderian's idea #1 as you call it, did show the possibility of EPM on the other team, if you read what he was responding to. Do you just skip over quotes when reading stuff?

Your earlier quote heavily implied that you felt that it was something to vote him over. But I guess that whole thing was just a misunderstanding on everyones part?

See, that's what happens when you run on "implications" when not in RVS. Yes, misunderstandings.

I never thought, stated nor planned that I would vote Guderian today.

Ummm... that's not what I am saying you implied. I am saying that you implied you wanted to vote Guderian TOMORROW. Which you pretty clearly did.

I like the idea of Ross being town, due to his post here--he doesn't like Evil or Demon, despite them going against each other, something I also didn't like. That kind of thinking makes me believe he's solidly town.

Except, almost everyone had those two players as suspects at the time. Very definitely sheeping. In fact, I might make Ross my next vote.

-4computer...who is this, again? (

*cough, cough*

)

Wait, who? I actually had to go back and look at the playerlist. This player hasn't posted at all.

@mod, could we have a prod on 4comp?

Vote: Nacho

- He wasn't originally aware of there being two scum factions.

I wasn't. Point being?

Cool response. I previously stated I had a problem with the logic behind Empking's accusation. That problem is that if the game was breakable in this way, I would think it would not be considered normal. Therefore, I am thinking that it is more likely that all PMs included the multiple scumteam comment. I wanted to see your response first though, just in case.

WEREWOLF!

Werewolf is scum for being so damn under the radar, as demonstrated by me forgetting who he was.

That has nothing to do with me, you can blame yourself for your bad memory.

He's also not reading the game AT ALL

Are you blaming me because I haven't had much time to contribute to the game?

, but still trying to act like he's contributing.

Perhaps the fact that I have posted 3, now 4 times, could be why you suspect me as scum. Therefore, I will try to post more often.

I agree with Calcifer that Werewolf's behavior so far does look slightly scummy. Also, this post of werewolf's was followed by... nothing. So essentially he said that he was perfectly willing to stop doing what he was being suspected for but never actually stopped. Or rather started, lol!

[nhammen]

Ummm... OK

1) There are no very clear scum suspects as of yet, but the connections that are being created now are going to be quite useful later in the game. I might decide to hunt by POE, but there are too many lurkers and less active players to be able to really effectively do this yet.
2) DemonHybrid has some pretty large logical leaps, but bad play =/= scum play, so this isn't enough of a reason to suspect him, but I would like his play to improve.
3) I find it highly likely that at least half of the scum are contained in the lurking/less active players, since I have been getting some strong town tells from most of the players that have posted useful content.

[nhammen]

The lurking/less active players are:
4comp
Azelf
chkflip
ender
werewolf
Ross
UntrodTripod
tyler

@mod: requesting a prod on Azelf and chkflip; they also havent posted.

How many replacements does this game need? Four!? That's one quarter of the playerlist!

Half of the players haven't shown near enough activity. I think that the whole half of the scum are among the less actives is true by default at this point.

[nhammen]

@mod: LA until Friday

Will respond to everything after my last post upon my return.

[nhammen]

Returning from Limited Access. Warning: probable wallpost incoming as soon as I catch up.

[nhammen]

Except, almost everyone had those two players as suspects at the time.

Not

quite

, nham. True, almost every single player was thinking one of them was scum...
...But Ross--to my knowledge--is the first to express how he thought

both

are scum, as I did in my post. That makes me think he's town, because he had a new insight which wasn't there before, that they were bussing each other hard. He obviously didn't say all of that, but it's definitely implied in his posts.
To my knowledge, everyone before that was just thinking one of them was scum and the other one town. Therefore, I see no sheeping. I see active participation. And from that, I come to the logical conclusion, that Ross is town.

I had to look back and check this. It seems that Guderian had implied DH and EPM scum on two seperate teams (or at least I saw this implication, although DH disagreed), iamausername had explicitly mentioned this as a possibility that Guderian should consider, and Parama had stated that he believed this. Then Ross came along, and contrary to what you have stated, did not even imply anything about bussing. I would like you to state what of Ross' you thought implied bussing. I also am wondering why you are so eager to defend him. (Although your other half has not been doing so). I really don't see any sort of new insight coming from Ross. I think he was just jumping on the easy bandwagon, or rather BOTH easy bandwagons.

And I'm alright with the idea of one--possibly two--scum being lurkers, but half of them? Well, if we have 2-2 scumteams, I'd expect the scum wouldn't try lurking (the smaller the team, the more important staying active is), and if we have 3-3 scumteams, then I don't think 1-2 players from EACH scumteam (or alternatively, an ENTIRE scum team) would be lurking; that's just too many. Therefore, half the scum can't be lurking. No, most of them are in the active players list; I'm quite sure of it.

You do realize that at this time, half of the players in the game were lurkers, with half of the lurkers in line to be replaced?

aaaaaaaaaannnnnddd parama claims scum. got it.

From the context of your post, this references post 54. Could you tell me how this is a scum claim, cuz I looked and am not seeing anything.

76. nothing about nhammen says he's town. but you give him the "misguided" pass. i don't get it.

I hadn't noticed this at the time, but you are quite right. Point against DH here.

Agree on everything. Everything else will be marked down as a contradiction.

This is far too demanding. Also, are contradictions necessarily scummy? And how can you honestly say that contradictions from a hydra are scummy?

but instead you choose to argue the "noob" thing. anytime you want to start contributing, you let me know.

I'm getting kinda tired of tyler now too. I will admit that when I accused DH of targeting tyler specifically, I was wrong to do so, because there was nothing wrong with DH's attack. He just saw something before I realized how serious it was.

Don't like his ender vote in 94 (several people had not given content--if memory serves--and I dislike how he singled out ender of them)

Yep, ender gives off that fresh NO0b scent, with notes of easy lynch. So I need to put UT in my questionable individuals column.

Calcifer was actually talking about my ender vote, and not UT, who has never voted for ender, and in fact is still on his random vote (whihc he has since implied has turned serious, but never stated). But, if you would like to know why I voted ender, it is because he had posted the least amount of content out of the people that I had noticed with that problem.

VOTE: Empking - his hunting, so far, seems fake.

Odd, looked quite genuine to me.

Same here. Plus, in a multiscum game, expect to see no fake hunting until one faction has been destroyed, so this is actually really bad reasoning coming from chkflip.

About Ross: Another thing to consider about him is information. If we lynch him, what information do we gain?
Pretty much none.

When we lynch (in my current preference order) Evil, Guderian, or Demon, what information do we gain?

A heck of a lot more, I can tell you that right now. (Again, I do have this thought out fairly well, and can give the information on request.)

Good point. I agree with this.

thanks mastin. the explanation makes sense. though i don't agree with the entire thought process, i get where you're coming from. also, it appears rw has replaced out.

unvote, vote: guderian

for this:

Mastin, why do you want to get information rather than lynch scum? If you want to lynch scum, vote DH.

i thought mastin's explanation was clear enough. dgb jumping on this point gives me pause as well.

Just because they didnt agree with the logic presented doesn't make them scum.

Wow. We're really lynching a lurker?
What the hell, guys. What the hell.

Those were some very fast 4 votes. However, at only 4 votes, I don't mind too much.

Good enough for me. he's top of my scumlist anyway.

vote: werewolf

Confirm Vote

Agree completely. Bandwagoning, and his "top suspect" is a lurker? Although, then maybe I'm guilty of seeing fake hunting in multiscum.

[nhammen]

Concerning the wagon on me
Are we really voting someone who is only scummy because they haven't posted instead of voting someone who has posted scummy things. If you want to vote me, go ahead, but i'm sure that more scum-hunting can be done to find scummy posts.
Wolf Out!

I changed my mind.
VOTE: werewolf555

You decide to suddenly pop in as soon as a wagon on you appears, as if by magic. And the best you can do is complain about the wagon on you? No! Content! NOW!

[nhammen]

yay! content! And yes, I agree. But someone already said that. Which person on the wagon do you find to be the most likely to be scum?

[nhammen]

Oh man, nhammen/werewolf double fail here. nhammen's bussing his partner and trying to guide him at the same time... and since werewolf's completely incompetent, he's following nhammen's instructions word for word and not realizing how obvious the scumlink is because of it. YAY!

We can do this then. Get nhammen next if werewolf flips scum or EPM if werewolf is town (hahahaha what a laugh). Either way, EPM needs to be lynched by the end of D3, and Guderian need to die too... my god but there's a lot of lynches that need to happen, and so few ropes :<

Umm.... OK.

Lets take the leap and see what happens. Regardless,

I guarantee scum is on the wagon

somewhere in the middle, but analyzing it will come in time.

hi. my name is demonhybrid. and i'm scum.

Very true.

I will never rat out my scum buddies!!!!

Well, knowing Parama's playstyle, I will never hear the end of his theory now. Yay?

I checked the rules
nothing seems to be against it.

Sigh. You discussed that game, and then linked to it. Very modkillable. Bye bye!

[nhammen]

Wow, thanks for not even trying to defend yourself! Thanks for not shooting down my theory by providing some sort of counter-argument! The only thing I can take from your response is that I hit the nail on the head and I will probably end up taking a NK for it!

How exactly could I make a counter-argument for crazy? I really don't see any way to do it.

I'll try to appease you, but I know you wont accept it. So, here goes: you are wrong. I was trying to get him to speak up, so that I could at least have some information on him other than his clear reluctance to post anything of value, even when under pressure. This would hopefully allow us to draw connections between him and other players if he were scum, or find out he is a VI before a lynch if he were town.

[nhammen]

I just checked the rules, and if this mod does not have the "pretending to do something against the rules is against the rules" rule. If the linking to the other game is not against the rules, then he didn't break any rule, so he can't be modkilled, and I'd be cleared.

[nhammen]

EBWOP: not "if this mod", "this mod"

[nhammen]

oh yeah... nevermind.

[nhammen]

VOTE: EVILPACMAN

Calcifer (Nachommamma >>> likely scum if pacman flips scum.)

This is scum making sure that they can take down a threat along with the downfall of their buddy.

EPM dies today.

(Mastin will be taking over for a day, so you'll see none of me.)

Interesting case. I've done the same thing when I was scum, so I can believe this. Although, did she actually give a reason? When I was scum I tried to convince the rest of the town that the link was there.

VOTE: EVILPACMAN

Calcifer (Nachommamma >>> likely scum if pacman flips scum.)

This is scum making sure that they can take down a threat along with the downfall of their buddy.

EPM dies today.

(Mastin will be taking over for a day, so you'll see none of me.)

Wow. This post is pure scum.

Vote; Calcifer

Care to give more information on that?

VOTE: tylerjarvis

His HoS on DH seemed weird...I don't see how a "jumpy nature and snap judgments" make someone more likely to be scum. And that's basically all the content he's contributed for the entire game.

Yeah, I have to agree; tyler has been pretty scummy.

[nhammen]

VOTE: Untrod Tripod

Seriously, read his iso. It's a whole lot of nothing. Post #82 is particularly bad.

Also saw this post from ender (DGB's predecessor), when evilpacman was being run up early on:

I'm really disliking the fact that after a couple pages with little not many people posting people are making decisions on who's scum and town already. I haven't played any games except from newbie games on this site but you can't automatically decide who's scum and who isn't...

makes me think Calcifer may well be onto something.

Also saw this post from ender (DGB's predecessor), when evilpacman was being run up early on:

I'm really disliking the fact that after a couple pages with little not many people posting people are making decisions on who's scum and town already. I haven't played any games except from newbie games on this site but you can't automatically decide who's scum and who isn't...

makes me think Calcifer may well be onto something.

This is a good point. It looks like he might have been trying to subtly discourage a wagon on his buddy. I'm happy with my Tyler vote, though.

Interesting. So you both say that Calcifer may be right about pacman, but then go and vote an active lurker. How many scum are in this game again?

I want to know Guderian's role asap before I come to any definite conclusions.

I've thought about this, and I can't see how it would make any difference. Stop stalling.

Vote: DH

i call bullshit here as well. what kind of "definite" conclusions are you going to have on day 2 of a large game anyways? you have his alignment. role should be an afterthought.

I agree with this too. And I hadn't noticed this until iamausername's comment. Unfortunately, positive scumhunting is not as much of an alignment tell in multiscum.

FoS: bvoigt

. Distancing from Evil, but refusing to bus, instead sticking onto a much weaker vote.

Exactly. But why is iamausername not guilty of this, while bvoigt is?

Role means everything, especially since a large chunk of yesterday's information dealt with Guderian.

OK, tell me exactly what role could mean, if we know that Guderian is not mafia. I can't think of very much, and definitely no reason to stall.

[nhammen]

Exactly. But why is iamausername not guilty of this, while bvoigt is?

They both are, but it's who they vote for which is important. Iam votes for UT, which is a valid vote.
bv votes for a relatively-new player who is a little on the lurkerish side.

Which of those looks worse?

Actually, they are both on the lurkerish side, but I do understand your sentiment.

No, but it didn't really seem like anyone but EPM was going to get lynched yesterday until the whole werewolf fiasco, so I think that this is a perspective that she would push after the EPM scumflip.

OK. So you think that EPM is likely to be DGB's partner. What about the other team? I haven't seen any mention of your suspects for this.

...


Now to dredge up an old post:

Unvote, Vote: werewolf

. Lets take the leap and see what happens. Regardless, I guarantee scum is on the wagon somewhere in the middle, but analyzing it will come in time.

So what ever happened to this? Also, you never answered the multiple questions asked of you about what information Guderian's role gives you.

[nhammen]

I'm waiting around for a DH or EPM lynch. I already made my case.

Lol i gave you the benefit of the doubt, and ISO'd you again. You have made no case on EPM. I'm inclined to leave DH for now, just because if he's town, he'd be such an obvious mislynch for scum to gun for at this point.

However, i will give you credit where credit is due. I

do

like your Nhammen case. Now, will you be a good little townie and put your vote where your convictions are?

After this comment I decided to iso Parama as well. He actually does mention EPM suspicions as sheeping of other players' EPM suspicions. And his confirm vote could also be seen as part of a case. So, (A) Parama hasn't made very many cases, but (B) of the few cases he has made, EPM

is

one of them. And (C) Parama's case against me was that I was bussing werewolf, who is Town. And you just said that you liked the case against me,

after

having seen werewolf's flip. So, I'd like to know what you liked about it. In fact, Parama says to get EPM if werewolf is town. So, did you actually read that iso? Because it seems like you didn't.

Although, thank you for drawing attention to Parama's very light iso. Not that I have room to speak.

huh. DRK. i'll have to fight the urge to vote him.

Battle Mage: today is DH or EPM. pick one.

Why are those the only two choices? Why is this directed specifically at Battle Mage? Was he expressing suspicion of someone you didn't want him to?

Interesting. So you both say that Calcifer may be right about pacman, but then go and vote an active lurker. How many scum are in this game again?

1-2 remaining from DGB's team (pacman is here), 2-3 from the other team (chances are that UT is here).

That was partially a joke (about how many scumreads could come from those two posts), and partially a reminder to myself about some odd behavior. Odd that you took it seriously in context, but not a comment about alignment.

And that makes him a

less

valid vote?

today is DH or EPM. pick one.

pacman. But really, I'd love to know if there's any good reason not to lynch Untrod Tripod. The only posts he made on D1 that could possibly described as containing content contained

scummy

content. Post #82 & Post #84 are a completely obvious case of scum standing on the sidelines egging on a wagon on town (or, perhaps, other-team-scum) without getting involved in it themselves. "DH is digging holes for himself" is not a comment on his alignment, because both scum and town are perfectly capable of digging holes for themselves. It's just scum gloating that someone is getting in trouble and it's not him.

I mean, yeah, pacman is likely scum, but at least he's making the effort to pretend otherwise. It is frustrating to me that everybody seems to be content to ignore UT entirely.

I agree about Untrod. This is a good case against him. However, I do personally tend to like it when cases precede votes, because it seems more genuine. Even though you failed to do this, I don't see this as scum postponing a case, and in fact, still have a townread on you. Therefore, I will join you:
VOTE: Untrod Tripod

Gah, I'm torn. One part of me says that EPM is obvious scum, the other part says Calcifer is doing exactly what he's accusing DGB of doing.
Instead of idling I'll get a vote down for something more definite.

vote: DemonHybrid

You mention EPM being obvious scum, and you call me a hypocrite. Then, you vote DH.
I thought you were town this game >.>

Could you clarify? Are you calling him scum here, or is this a joke about his scumhunting ability?

OK. So you think that EPM is likely to be DGB's partner. What about the other team? I haven't seen any mention of your suspects for this.

Haven't thought about the other team, to be completely honest.
Off the top of my head, Parama and bvoigt would be my top 2.

I actually asked because it was obvious you hadn't thought about it. I was considering voting you right there, but I typed a ... instead. Now, if you are scum, this would have to be the ballsiest scum I have ever seen. Just to out and say, "hey, I'm selective scumhunting." Right now, I will buy that as town, because I don't think I have ever seen scum that ballsy.

trying to read this game makes my soul weep. here are my reads so far

scum:
nhammen

leaning scum:
calcifer
EPM

WTF:
Battle Mage

leaning town:
DRK
Parama

town:
iamusername

will give some reasons later

Could you specify what later means? I have seen scum post bogus lists too much for me to buy this at all.

More often than I expect
There was one game where I caught one scum on page 1 and another scum on page 2. Fun times.

So that is two out of... how many? I'd say that if you did a mathematical analysis of your page 3 and earlier reads, you would see them being just slightly better than random.

Page 10

Speaking of bvoigt this is quite interesting. To be honest, I think he would more likely be a member of the non-DGB scum team than the DGB scum team, but it's still interesting. This looks like a vote based on differing opinions, rather than based on scumminess. Scum points to don (yayyyyyy!). bvoigt now takes to following others. If bvoigt knew werewolf was active and posting elsewhere, it seems weird it would only occur to him to bring it up after werewolf gained a couple of votes. bvoigt now my biggest scum read.

I love it when replacements arrive and put things in new context. I now agree about bvoigt being scummy. Still want a response from Untrod though. For the record, DRK's entrance was extremely town.

[nhammen]

After this comment I decided to iso Parama as well. He actually does mention EPM suspicions as sheeping of other players' EPM suspicions. And his confirm vote could also be seen as part of a case.

Lolwut? Since when did the lone phrase "confirm vote" constitute a case? The only significant criticism Parama makes of EPM, is in his first proper post, when he claims that EPM is scum because he random-voted people he knew. Ya know, like nearly half the people on site do in the RVS. Anything after that is Parama tunnelling, as far as i'm concerned.

Maybe if you disagree, you could try posting some quotes of Parama making an actual case on EPM?

Sorry, but my point was that he made as much of a case on EPM as he did on anybody else. So, you said that he didn't have a case on EPM, but you said nothing about his suspicion of DH, who he had expressed less suspicion of. Sorry if I wasn't clear. I guess you missed this part of the post

Although, thank you for drawing attention to Parama's very light iso.

where I point out how empty his iso is.

Although, looking back at your original post, you do say something about leaving DH because he looks like an easy target, so maybe that caused you to not pay attention to that fact.


@DRK 436: DGB's "experiment" does make DH look a little worse, but not by much. It is more likely that DGB was trying to get a reaction out of someone that is easy to get a reaction out of. Also, something else you point out, but did not notice yourself, is that DGB also tried to create scumlinks between EPM and DH. That's two players that DGB has tried to link to pacman.

Unofficial VOTE COUNT!

Evilpacman: Calcifer, DemonHybrid,

Bvoigt

DemonHybrid: Parama, Don_Johnson, Empking, Deathrowkitty, Bvoigt
UntrodTripod: iamusername, nhammen
Parama: Battle Mage

Not Voting: Tylerjarvis, evilpacman, UntrodTripod

DemonHybrid is now at L-2

[nhammen]

Yes, I've been lurking. I'm sorry. I was finishing up a pretty intense game (Perfect scum win, thank you very much). If you don't off me immediately, I'll be glad to get in here and start posting a bit more content.

What happened with this, tyler?

@mod: could we have some prods and a votecount?

I wish I could vote for all four of Untrod, and Parama, and EPM, and tyler! And you know, let's add bvoigt in there too!

VOTE: evilpacman
Of these people, his wagon is largest (by one), and there are connections to DGB. And the deadline is Friday.

[nhammen]

And yes, power role information would be important. Hell, we don't even know if he's TOWN; he's just not mafia. He could be a SK for all we know.

And would this change any connections he had with others? What info do you hope to get from any role.

Well, it depended on the role.

Well, GIVE AN EXAMPLE.

[nhammen]

Seeing as how Calcifer was right about EPM, I am adding major scumpoints to both players that said that Calcifer was on to something, and then voted for a lurker. However, a four person scumteam is highly improbable in a game this size, so I'm going to guess only one of them is scum. At this point in time, I suspect it to be bvoigt.

KEY:
Green = town
Red = eastern
Purple = western

Votecount #1 - The "I'm back on track" votecount.

DemonHybrid - UntrodTripod,

Guderian

, nhammen (3)

evilpacman8

- Nachomamma8, Demonhybrid, iamausername, Parama (4)
UntrodTripod - tylerjarvis (1)

Well... I think this is a good starting point for DH-western

Could you explain this one? I understood all of your other vote count comments, but I'm curious as to what about this first count implicates DH as scum.

SensFan

tylerjarvis

don_johnson

4computer

SharkFinn

Untrod Tripod

Unless all 3 Eastern Mafia were on the werewolf wagon, one of these guys is the final Eastern Mafia.

This looks like honest analysis. This doesn't mesh with my bvoigt=Eastern suspicions. Will require thought.

Question: Did you factor in the fact that I hammered the 2nd eastern mafia member? Of course he outed himself and hammering was pretty much the best move for me (town/scum). I'm just wondering if that factor'd in?

Holy crap! Shark's reply to bvoigt looks pretty bad. Hey, did you make sure to notice that I hammered my buddy for towncred? Did ya? Then again, I don't imagine any scum player being this overt. They tend to be much more subtle than that. So, for now, this shall only be considered bad play and not scum play.

Would you clear me of Eastern mafia?

I am curious as to what brought out this particular question.

In light of VCA, yes.
Still want you dead, though.

Cool. For a second, I was going to vote you.

OK, I'd like to know this as well.

Vote: nhammen

. Probable Western Mafia. Battle Mage mentioned him in the first post when replacing in which may be a large tell.

Sigh. Two scumteams. Fake hunting doesn't happen, until one team is eliminated. Unless it is drawing fake connections between a partner and another non-partner player apparently, lol.

Parama and Calacifer are the scum. Calling it now.

Vote: Calc

Reasons? I'm very very curious.

And yeah, I know my EPM vote was sheeping. The main actual reasons were his excuses for active lurking and link to Ender (iamausername's ISO #11).

A) You acknowledge that it was sheeping. Why weren't you trying to find out your own cases instead of following others? B) Why didn't you give these reasons along with that vote?

vote: nhammen

for now.

Reasons?

By the way, is it better for the other Mason to come out now? Or wait until the next day?

Legitimate inquiry. A confirmed townie would do us a world of good, but not with two/three easy lynches on the line, including myself.

The only reason for any mason to claim soon is if there is a realistic possibility they will be killed, and then scum come forward claiming to be a third member of what is actually a 2 member mason group. In other words, if the mason is a likely night kill, and that mason is the only member of the group left.

[nhammen]

Fake hunting doesn't happen, until one team is eliminated. Unless it is drawing fake connections between a partner and another non-partner player

My vote will probably go to DH. Needless to say, if he flips scum, Parama next, no discussion.

Hello there.
VOTE: DH

[nhammen]

Early Battle Mage (fake?) connection suspicions:

If Nhammen is scum, maybe DemonH is scum too.

This one is the wrong way around, but is another example.

Parama-EPM duo works. DH maybe mafia. Actually, DH and Nhammen?

Here. He could be trying to saturate the thread with these connections, since this is soon after Calcifer pointed out DGB's false connections. On the other hand, note the inclusion of DH again.

Still favoring DH scum.

[nhammen]

wait for me to catch up on the last few pages please.

[nhammen]

Hmm...nhammen, do you think that Battle Mage is the type of player to bus DH, because I am doubting the scenario that they are on separate teams. I agree that BM is totally setting up duos, but maybe we need to rethink DH scum.

Look at Battle Mage's iso. He was only attacking. I am sure he had to be bussing someone.

Holy crap, Calcifer's p22 analysis is full of tunnel vision. Although, I can sort of agree with his Parama case, because I kinda saw the attacks from Battle Mage on Parama as bussing before Calcifer mentioned it.

I'm a Cop. Calcifer and Parama are scum.

OK, since Parama is at L-1 I wont be voting. But I'd like more info. Did you have a Night 1 investigation? Who did you investigate each night? What are your reasons for picking these particular targets?

I'm a Cop. Calcifer and Parama are scum.

Both Western, then?

Whoa whoa whoa! Why do you come straight to that conclusion? Are you Eastern? Wait. That would mean that A) the cop claim is false and B) you are on a different team than Emp. This doesn't make sense for a few reasons.

Parama's response to Calcifer's tunneling is good. Although, with the cop claim, both players involved would be scum.

And now, with Parama's claim, it seems that Emp was telling the truth, and that Calcifer is scum.

[nhammen]

note: before that last sentence was all typed before the hammer, and there was another line asking for a hammer to wait, which no longer has any point.

[nhammen]

who don't you guys kill him?

[nhammen]

oh wait a sec. nm

[nhammen]

Vote: Calcifer

- Got an innocent result on Nhammen.

Ummm... awesome. Just curious, but why did you pick me to investigate?

Why give a reason at all?

Nhammen:

Why NOT give a reason, though?

I dunno. I just thought that there was no reason to give a reason. Are you seriously defending the actions a player that has flipped scum?

@Nacho 40 This seems almost too confident... slightly decreased Townie points.

Nhammen:

Tell me, in this situation, I can see only two ways to reach this conclusion:
-You think that Nacho's confidence in THAT case is scummy,
or
-You think overconfidence is scummy in general.

If the former, please explain why and elaborate on that read. If the latter, I know you're lying scum, either that, or someone who in their massive amount of experience just really hasn't heard of tunnel visioning.

The former. You will have to forgive me, because that was so long ago that I don't remember the specifics.

I'm not understanding this section of this post. What do you mean by soft defending? Wouldn't he be soft-implying that he believes EPM is scum, whatever his alignment is?

This post was more confusing than what he was replying to. Demon clearly thought nhammen was defending Evil. (I got that impression yesterday as well.) I think the second half, however, is implying that he says he still has an Evil suspicion, despite how it looks like the Chainsaw Defense.

Actually, I remember this, and Demon was accusing Guderian of "soft-defending" and I honestly had no idea what he was talking about. But cool of you to put words into Demon's mouth. I'm sure he appreciates that.

But, if you would like to know why I voted ender, it is because he had posted the least amount of content out of the people that I had noticed with that problem.

I don't think anyone asked this of nhammen before now.

nham:

explain why ender gave the least in your mind.

Because he had two posts, neither of which contained anything but a couple of sentences of fluff, while the other players that I could think of had in some way tried. I think I'm remembering that correctly.

Seeing as how Calcifer was right about EPM, I am adding major scumpoints to both players that said that Calcifer was on to something, and then voted for a lurker. However, a four person scumteam is highly improbable in a game this size, so I'm going to guess only one of them is scum. At this point in time, I suspect it to be bvoigt.

And he never follows through!

This looks like honest analysis. This doesn't mesh with my bvoigt=Eastern suspicions. Will require thought.

Which we never get.
Also, why not Western?

The suspicions were based entirely on the idea that they were distancing from EPM, who as you know was ... EASTERN.

I am curious as to what brought out this particular question.

Fluff.

OK, I'd like to know this as well.

More fluff.

I really like that you call this fluff, since this is you know, ASKING FOR MORE INFORMATION. So, now I need to go check and see if any more information was given here.

If there was anything more you would like me to respond to in that post, just let me know.

By my count, Calcifer is at L-1. I don't think there is anything we can use in his posts to find his teammate, but if someone were willing to go over them with a fine-toothed comb, it would be good to try. I really don't want to.

[nhammen]

Maaan that was a long last day. I kept looking back at the thread and seeing nothing new. That don hammer kinda surprised me. I was expecting him to post what Battle Mage stuff he was talking about, and have the day drag on even more. Also, Shark was obvtown!! What happened? I also had DH as town after day 1. I wish I were alive on the last day.

Which reminds me: do we get QTs?

[nhammen]

Actually, I forgot that I had seen some connections between Battle Mage and DH. SO he wasn't obvtown to me since D1. I guess I wouldn't have this locked if I were here.