Mafia 123 - Outdoorsmen Mafia 2 GAME OVER

[Calcifer]

Instead of idling I'll get a vote down for something more definite.

Can also be read "instead of taking a position on those two I'll just go for something easier."

I'm not active lurking in the slightest, so you must be thinking of someone else. Anywho...

What prompted this?

[Parama]

Instead of idling I'll get a vote down for something more definite.

Can also be read "instead of taking a position on those two I'll just go for something easier."

My vote goes wherever scum is most obvious, which is in this case DH. Once we get through that scumlynch I'll be able to tell you who's the scum out of EPM/Calc.

I'm not active lurking in the slightest, so you must be thinking of someone else. Anywho...

What prompted this?

Your defense that you play this way every game is pretty much meaningless. If I intentionally active lurk every game, would the fact that I do so every game make it any better? No. It makes it worse.

[Calcifer]

Instead of idling I'll get a vote down for something more definite.

Can also be read "instead of taking a position on those two I'll just go for something easier."

My vote goes wherever scum is most obvious, which is in this case DH. Once we get through that scumlynch I'll be able to tell you who's the scum out of EPM/Calc.

Okay, fair enough.

I'm not active lurking in the slightest, so you must be thinking of someone else. Anywho...

What prompted this?

Your defense that you play this way every game is pretty much meaningless. If I intentionally active lurk every game, would the fact that I do so every game make it any better? No. It makes it worse.

I think that you misinterpreted this. He was just giving an example of what he regarded was an anti-town playstyle, he wasn't saying it was your playstyle.


DRK, I can't find what you think about UT.

[DeathRowKitty]

I don't think I mentioned UT much in my catch up posts (did I mention him at all aside from his Holes post?) mostly because he hasn't done much on which to base a read. My read on him is fairly null, but leaning slightly town. If for no other reason (and to be honest, I can't remember whether or not there is another reason), I consider his Holes post a slight town tell. iamausername could be right that it was really "a completely obvious case of scum standing on the sidelines egging on a wagon on town", but it seems to me more like a townie trying to cut through the nonsense in a game to get more important things going.

[nhammen]

I'm waiting around for a DH or EPM lynch. I already made my case.

Lol i gave you the benefit of the doubt, and ISO'd you again. You have made no case on EPM. I'm inclined to leave DH for now, just because if he's town, he'd be such an obvious mislynch for scum to gun for at this point.

However, i will give you credit where credit is due. I

do

like your Nhammen case. Now, will you be a good little townie and put your vote where your convictions are?

After this comment I decided to iso Parama as well. He actually does mention EPM suspicions as sheeping of other players' EPM suspicions. And his confirm vote could also be seen as part of a case. So, (A) Parama hasn't made very many cases, but (B) of the few cases he has made, EPM

is

one of them. And (C) Parama's case against me was that I was bussing werewolf, who is Town. And you just said that you liked the case against me,

after

having seen werewolf's flip. So, I'd like to know what you liked about it. In fact, Parama says to get EPM if werewolf is town. So, did you actually read that iso? Because it seems like you didn't.

Although, thank you for drawing attention to Parama's very light iso. Not that I have room to speak.

huh. DRK. i'll have to fight the urge to vote him.

Battle Mage: today is DH or EPM. pick one.

Why are those the only two choices? Why is this directed specifically at Battle Mage? Was he expressing suspicion of someone you didn't want him to?

Interesting. So you both say that Calcifer may be right about pacman, but then go and vote an active lurker. How many scum are in this game again?

1-2 remaining from DGB's team (pacman is here), 2-3 from the other team (chances are that UT is here).

That was partially a joke (about how many scumreads could come from those two posts), and partially a reminder to myself about some odd behavior. Odd that you took it seriously in context, but not a comment about alignment.

And that makes him a

less

valid vote?

today is DH or EPM. pick one.

pacman. But really, I'd love to know if there's any good reason not to lynch Untrod Tripod. The only posts he made on D1 that could possibly described as containing content contained

scummy

content. Post #82 & Post #84 are a completely obvious case of scum standing on the sidelines egging on a wagon on town (or, perhaps, other-team-scum) without getting involved in it themselves. "DH is digging holes for himself" is not a comment on his alignment, because both scum and town are perfectly capable of digging holes for themselves. It's just scum gloating that someone is getting in trouble and it's not him.

I mean, yeah, pacman is likely scum, but at least he's making the effort to pretend otherwise. It is frustrating to me that everybody seems to be content to ignore UT entirely.

I agree about Untrod. This is a good case against him. However, I do personally tend to like it when cases precede votes, because it seems more genuine. Even though you failed to do this, I don't see this as scum postponing a case, and in fact, still have a townread on you. Therefore, I will join you:
VOTE: Untrod Tripod

Gah, I'm torn. One part of me says that EPM is obvious scum, the other part says Calcifer is doing exactly what he's accusing DGB of doing.
Instead of idling I'll get a vote down for something more definite.

vote: DemonHybrid

You mention EPM being obvious scum, and you call me a hypocrite. Then, you vote DH.
I thought you were town this game >.>

Could you clarify? Are you calling him scum here, or is this a joke about his scumhunting ability?

OK. So you think that EPM is likely to be DGB's partner. What about the other team? I haven't seen any mention of your suspects for this.

Haven't thought about the other team, to be completely honest.
Off the top of my head, Parama and bvoigt would be my top 2.

I actually asked because it was obvious you hadn't thought about it. I was considering voting you right there, but I typed a ... instead. Now, if you are scum, this would have to be the ballsiest scum I have ever seen. Just to out and say, "hey, I'm selective scumhunting." Right now, I will buy that as town, because I don't think I have ever seen scum that ballsy.

trying to read this game makes my soul weep. here are my reads so far

scum:
nhammen

leaning scum:
calcifer
EPM

WTF:
Battle Mage

leaning town:
DRK
Parama

town:
iamusername

will give some reasons later

Could you specify what later means? I have seen scum post bogus lists too much for me to buy this at all.

More often than I expect
There was one game where I caught one scum on page 1 and another scum on page 2. Fun times.

So that is two out of... how many? I'd say that if you did a mathematical analysis of your page 3 and earlier reads, you would see them being just slightly better than random.

Page 10

Speaking of bvoigt this is quite interesting. To be honest, I think he would more likely be a member of the non-DGB scum team than the DGB scum team, but it's still interesting. This looks like a vote based on differing opinions, rather than based on scumminess. Scum points to don (yayyyyyy!). bvoigt now takes to following others. If bvoigt knew werewolf was active and posting elsewhere, it seems weird it would only occur to him to bring it up after werewolf gained a couple of votes. bvoigt now my biggest scum read.

I love it when replacements arrive and put things in new context. I now agree about bvoigt being scummy. Still want a response from Untrod though. For the record, DRK's entrance was extremely town.

[Battle Mage]

After this comment I decided to iso Parama as well. He actually does mention EPM suspicions as sheeping of other players' EPM suspicions. And his confirm vote could also be seen as part of a case.

Lolwut? Since when did the lone phrase "confirm vote" constitute a case? The only significant criticism Parama makes of EPM, is in his first proper post, when he claims that EPM is scum because he random-voted people he knew. Ya know, like nearly half the people on site do in the RVS. Anything after that is Parama tunnelling, as far as i'm concerned.

Maybe if you disagree, you could try posting some quotes of Parama making an actual case on EPM?

(C) Parama's case against me was that I was bussing werewolf, who is Town. And you just said that you liked the case against me, after having seen werewolf's flip. So, I'd like to know what you liked about it.

Hmm, yeah im not sure on that one. Possibly at the moment i read his post about you, i forgot that Werewolf, who had claimed scum, actually flipped town. In retrospect, i'd just say your interaction with werewolf was insincere.

BM

[bvoigt]

bvoigt now takes to following others. If bvoigt knew werewolf was active and posting elsewhere, it seems weird it would only occur to him to bring it up after werewolf gained a couple of votes. bvoigt now my biggest scum read.

Nah, I didn't know that Werewolf had been active elsewhere until checking his posts after iam's vote.

In other news, I think that most of the scum are lurking. This game needs a wagon or something.

[Empking]

bvoigt now takes to following others. If bvoigt knew werewolf was active and posting elsewhere, it seems weird it would only occur to him to bring it up after werewolf gained a couple of votes. bvoigt now my biggest scum read.

Nah, I didn't know that Werewolf had been active elsewhere until checking his posts after iam's vote.

In other news, I think that most of the scum are lurking. This game needs a wagon or something.

Can I presume from your last comment that you're voting DH?

[bvoigt]

bvoigt now takes to following others. If bvoigt knew werewolf was active and posting elsewhere, it seems weird it would only occur to him to bring it up after werewolf gained a couple of votes. bvoigt now my biggest scum read.

Nah, I didn't know that Werewolf had been active elsewhere until checking his posts after iam's vote.

In other news, I think that most of the scum are lurking. This game needs a wagon or something.

Can I presume from your last comment that you're voting DH?

DH's hammer did seem fairly scummy, but I'm voting EPM.

[Empking]

bvoigt now takes to following others. If bvoigt knew werewolf was active and posting elsewhere, it seems weird it would only occur to him to bring it up after werewolf gained a couple of votes. bvoigt now my biggest scum read.

Nah, I didn't know that Werewolf had been active elsewhere until checking his posts after iam's vote.

In other news, I think that most of the scum are lurking. This game needs a wagon or something.

Can I presume from your last comment that you're voting DH?

DH's hammer did seem fairly scummy, but I'm voting EPM.

Then vote DH.

[DeathRowKitty]

@bvoigt
Regarding the werewolf thing, I might have misinterpreted "Yeah, werewolf logged in yesterday" as "I saw werewolf logged in yesterday" instead of "I now see that he posted yesterday." I'll drop that point against you.

[DeathRowKitty]

Okay, time to do a little analysis on the werewolf wagon. Not sure where this may or may not be headed, but it should be interesting to look at (I quoted the relevant posts in spoilers to avoid this post getting too unmanageably long from all the quoting; the links before each spoiler are to the spoilered posts):

Post 238

Spoiler: iamausername

Well, I'm trying to figure out what to post as a catchup, but nothing has really happened since I've been gone, so that's kind of difficult. Well, DGB turned up, that's always good. She looks like town DGB so far, I think.

Dearest Moderator, the following people are distinctly in need of prod/replacement:

Untrod Tripod
werewolf333

I don't think either of them are currently slated for replacement, and neither have posted in almost a week.

Unvote

VOTE: werewolf

I think we should wagon this guy just to see if he even notices.

At the time of this post, the votes were as follows:

Spoiler: Votecount

DemonHybrid - UntrodTripod, Guderian, Ross William, Empking, DrippingGoofball (5)
evilpacman8 - Nachomamma8, DemonHybrid, iamausername, Parama (4)
UntrodTripod - tylerjarvis (1)
Guderian - bvoigt, don_johnson (2)

The two most recent votes at the time were DGB's for DemonHybrid and don_johnson's for Guderian. I don't see don's vote as having any relevance to iamausername's vote, but DGB's (in theory, at least) could. With DGB's vote making DemonHybrid the leading wagon, the werewolf wagon could have been set up as a counterwagon if DH is scum. It would be unfair to pin that on iamausername (one vote does not a wagon make), but it's something to note when looking at early votes on the werewolf wagon.

@iamausername
Why did you choose werewolf to vote over other players that weren't posting? There were plenty of players not posting and you'd only actually mentioned werewolf once before this vote.

Post 239

Spoiler: bvoigt

Yeah, werewolf logged in yesterday, and he's been posting in other places. Let's see where this goes.

UNVOTE: Guderian
VOTE: werewolf333

I actually kind of like this post this time around. He unvoted off a wagon that had just gotten a second vote to join a wagon that had just gotten its first vote, so it wasn't exactly a wagon hop and the fact that he basically supplied the first reasoning for the wagon (that he found after iamausername's vote) reads like town getting a handle on the game vs. scum looking for a wagon to join. It's also probably rare for scum to follow a vote one post after it's made. I might need to read him again to get a better picture of him. Overall, I would say this vote was not suspicious.

Post 242

Spoiler: DrippingGoofball

I can interrupt my experiment for this one.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: werewolf

This vote is interesting and partly because DGB's already flipped scum. Let's look back at the experiment she decided to interrupt for this:

Post 234, post 235, and post 236

Spoiler: DGB's Experiment

A peanut sat on the railroad track
When the 5:15 came by,
Choo Choo! Peanut butter.

VOTE: DemonHybrid

A peanut sat on the railroad track
When the 5:15 came by,
Choo Choo! Peanut butter.

VOTE: DemonHybrid

How come?

How come?

Shhh, it's an experiment.

The fact that DH left it at that is interesting, considering I seem to recall (my memory is awful for things like this, but meh) that he's been pretty persistent in following up on things he started. Not sure we really need a verdict on whether or not DGB's vote was scummy, but I would say it makes DH more likely to be scum.

Post 243

Spoiler: evilpacman18

Good enough for me. he's top of my scumlist anyway.

vote: werewolf

I somehow didn't notice this the first time around, but I do find it somewhat scummy now. He makes reference to his scumlist, but looking at his iso, he really hadn't commented on many players and I'm not sure if he'd given any strong reads at that point. This post redeems him a bit on that point, but the whole "he's top of my scumlist" thing reads as an easy out for having to give anything better. Verdict: scummy vote. My gut read on him is still town though and I don't plan on voting him for the time being.



I'm going to be lazy now and say I'll finish this later. Don't feel like doing the rest now. If someone else wants to finish it, that's fine too.

[bvoigt]

Why not?

UNVOTE: evilpacman13
VOTE: DemonHybrid

[nhammen]

After this comment I decided to iso Parama as well. He actually does mention EPM suspicions as sheeping of other players' EPM suspicions. And his confirm vote could also be seen as part of a case.

Lolwut? Since when did the lone phrase "confirm vote" constitute a case? The only significant criticism Parama makes of EPM, is in his first proper post, when he claims that EPM is scum because he random-voted people he knew. Ya know, like nearly half the people on site do in the RVS. Anything after that is Parama tunnelling, as far as i'm concerned.

Maybe if you disagree, you could try posting some quotes of Parama making an actual case on EPM?

Sorry, but my point was that he made as much of a case on EPM as he did on anybody else. So, you said that he didn't have a case on EPM, but you said nothing about his suspicion of DH, who he had expressed less suspicion of. Sorry if I wasn't clear. I guess you missed this part of the post

Although, thank you for drawing attention to Parama's very light iso.

where I point out how empty his iso is.

Although, looking back at your original post, you do say something about leaving DH because he looks like an easy target, so maybe that caused you to not pay attention to that fact.


@DRK 436: DGB's "experiment" does make DH look a little worse, but not by much. It is more likely that DGB was trying to get a reaction out of someone that is easy to get a reaction out of. Also, something else you point out, but did not notice yourself, is that DGB also tried to create scumlinks between EPM and DH. That's two players that DGB has tried to link to pacman.

Unofficial VOTE COUNT!

Evilpacman: Calcifer, DemonHybrid,

Bvoigt

DemonHybrid: Parama, Don_Johnson, Empking, Deathrowkitty, Bvoigt
UntrodTripod: iamusername, nhammen
Parama: Battle Mage

Not Voting: Tylerjarvis, evilpacman, UntrodTripod

DemonHybrid is now at L-2

[nhammen]

Yes, I've been lurking. I'm sorry. I was finishing up a pretty intense game (Perfect scum win, thank you very much). If you don't off me immediately, I'll be glad to get in here and start posting a bit more content.

What happened with this, tyler?

@mod: could we have some prods and a votecount?

I wish I could vote for all four of Untrod, and Parama, and EPM, and tyler! And you know, let's add bvoigt in there too!

VOTE: evilpacman
Of these people, his wagon is largest (by one), and there are connections to DGB. And the deadline is Friday.

[Calcifer]

Haha brilliant. Now if you can just provide some proof...?

Theoretically, possible. I can grab the "last modified on" date and take a screenshot of it to prove that I did, indeed, write it before when I joined the game.
In reality, I'm pretty sure that violates, like, half a dozen rules, and I'd rather not get myself modkilled.

I looooooove how DRK's catchup post had lots of FoS's on, y'know, every single dead player in the game. Not to mention, a lot of what he's saying has been said before. Not a scumtell, but highly annoying to find the actual new content in there.

Mastin, did you know your role when you wrote that?

When I WROTE it? Nope.
When I posted it? Naturally.

I see a lot in DRK's entrance posts I don't like. I'll elaborate if requested, but I'm catching up right now. (I'm thinking specifically about DRK's vote, versus a lot of what he was saying earlier, essentially.)

---

The Demon wagon feels like it's got lots of scum on it. It really makes me feel like Evil's scumteam is trying to deflect attention away from their buddy and get a lynch on Demon, instead, to buy their buddy an extra day.

I'll be doing some Vote Count Analysis of my own.

[Calcifer]

2. Parama
3. bvoigt (Rep. Azelf D1)
4. DeathRowKitty (Rep.chkflip D2)
5. tylerjarvis
6.

evilpacman18

7. nhammen
8. don_johnson (Rep. 4computer D1)
9. Battle Mage (Rep. Jmj3000 D2 Rep. RossWilliam D1)
11. Empking
12. iamausername
15. UntrodTripod
16.

DemonHybrid

Player list (minus myself), bolded are leading wagons right now. It makes a handy reference.

Spoiler: VCA

DemonHybrid - UntrodTripod,

Guderian

, nhammen (3)
evilpacman8 - Nachomamma8, Demonhybrid, iamausername, Parama (4)
UntrodTripod - tylerjarvis (1)

Typical VCA would say one scum on each of these. (Shortly after this, nhammen votes for Ender--Mentioned reason is not having posted any content, and (related) not having given any suspects.)

DemonHybrid - UntrodTripod,

Guderian

(2)
evilpacman8 - Nachomamma8, Demonhybrid, iamausername, Parama (4)
ender241 - nhammen (1)
Calcifer - empking (1)
UntrodTripod - tylerjarvis, iamausername (2)

Between {UT, nhammen, empking, tyler, iamausername}, I'd expect 1-2 scum from a typical vote count. (If it's 2, it's one from each team.)

DemonHybrid - UntrodTripod,

Guderian

, Ross William, Empking (4)
evilpacman8 - Nachomamma8, Demonhybrid, iamausername, Parama (4)
UntrodTripod - tylerjarvis (1)
Guderian - bvoigt (1)

Typical VCA suggests 1-2 scum (1 from each faction max) on both wagons, with the remaining scum off.

As stated, there was a quick-wagon on Werewolf, four votes in close proximity. That was {iam, bv,

DGB

, evil}. That has me a bit concerned about the DGB-Evil read, because--while I expect two scum to be there--I expect one from each faction, not two from the same.

After this, nhammen, Empking, and Parama all join. My Playerslot and Demon both joined, but a page later. I'd also expect 1-2 scum in there, but no more.
So, 1-2 scum in {iam, bv,

DGB

, evil}, with DGB as one, and 1-2 scum in {nhammen, Empking, Parama, Demon}. The remaining scum would stay off that wagon.

DemonHybrid - UntrodTripod,

Guderian

, Ross William, don_johnson (4)
evilpacman8 - Demonhybrid, iamausername (4)
UntrodTripod - tylerjarvis (1)
{Iamusername, Bvoigt,

DrippingGoofball

, Evilpacman18},
{[nhammen, Empking, Parama], Calcifer, DemonHybrid}

That's how the votes fall. Tyler's town. 1-2 scum in each of Demon/Evil (for 2-3 total), and remaining scum on the Werewolf wagon, which I've broken into quickwagon-first-half, slowish-wagon-second-half, with a sub-set between the two pages, with nham-Emp-Parama also being close-proximity votes. It's, uh, complicated, and I'll need to see the results to make sure of it, because I think all of this will paint an interesting picture.

Evilpacman: Calcifer
Calcifer: Empking
DemonHybrid: Parama
Tylerjarvis: Bvoigt
UntrodTripod: iamusername

Not Voting: Chkflip, Tylerjarvis, evilpacman, nhammen, Don_Johnson, Jmj, UntrodTripod, DemonHybrid

Not much point in analyzing this, considering how many are unvoted. Though I'd expect 1-2 scum from each faction (grand total of 3 maximum, but probably only two) to be voting already, with the remaining scum (probably 3) not having voted.

Evilpacman: Calcifer, DemonHybrid,

Bvoigt

, nhammen
DemonHybrid: Parama, Don_Johnson, Empking, Deathrowkitty, Bvoigt
UntrodTripod: iamusername,

nhammen

Parama: Battle Mage

Not Voting: Tylerjarvis, evilpacman, UntrodTripod

One scum not voting. One to two scum not on a lead wagon. (That's {iam, nhammen, Battle Mage}.) Remaining scum on Demon, with one scum (if it's one, not two, who aren't on a lead wagon) possible on Evil.

That's what I'm getting from the VCA; let's see what it shows when it's posted. But from what I'm seeing, I'm not fond of a Demon wagon.

[DeathRowKitty]

@Calcifer
I didn't know who died except DGB until several pages in and even then, I didn't know she replaced ender until I got to the mod's announcement in thread. I actually didn't realized I'd FoSed all the dead players until you mentioned it >_<

I'm in class right now, so I'll continue the werewolf wagon analysis later.

[don_johnson]

Why are those the only two choices?

they are not. they are who i think should be lynched today. going outside of those choices is a waste of time atm imo.

Why is this directed specifically at Battle Mage?

because i chose to engage him.

Was he expressing suspicion of someone you didn't want him to?

no. i don't care who he expresses suspicion of. i was simply pointing out that it would be more beneficial if he focused on our top two suspects for now.

[Calcifer]

Hey, guys?

Where are DH and EPM, anyways?

[Parama]

Dunno about EPM but DH just posted in the Song Contest thread.

[Parama]

MOD: There's a chance my power may go out soon due to freezing rain, so consider me V/LA for the next 4 days. I'll keep posting if I don't lose power, of course.

[evilpacman18]

Besides a bad case of tunnel-vision on me, I don't see anything wrong with the way DH is playing the game. I can understand why he'd have that tunnel vision too. This is a really tough game to read.

[Battle Mage]

Why are those the only two choices?

they are not. they are who i think should be lynched today. going outside of those choices is a waste of time atm imo.

Haha, right dude.

Why is this directed specifically at Battle Mage?

because i chose to engage him.

Sorry honey, flattered as i am, you can't really propose on a first date. A bit of woo-ing wouldnt go amiss! lol

Was he expressing suspicion of someone you didn't want him to?

no. i don't care who he expresses suspicion of. i was simply pointing out that it would be more beneficial if he focused on our top two suspects for now.

[/quote]

Gee darling, i appreciate the advice, but i'm not your bitch. "our top two suspects"? In case you havent noticed, they aren't MY top two suspects. And really, that's all that actually matters.

Oh, and i see Parama buggering off for...ooh, the rest of the day. How coincidental!

BM

[Battle Mage]

After this comment I decided to iso Parama as well. He actually does mention EPM suspicions as sheeping of other players' EPM suspicions. And his confirm vote could also be seen as part of a case.

Lolwut? Since when did the lone phrase "confirm vote" constitute a case? The only significant criticism Parama makes of EPM, is in his first proper post, when he claims that EPM is scum because he random-voted people he knew. Ya know, like nearly half the people on site do in the RVS. Anything after that is Parama tunnelling, as far as i'm concerned.

Maybe if you disagree, you could try posting some quotes of Parama making an actual case on EPM?

Sorry, but my point was that he made as much of a case on EPM as he did on anybody else. So, you said that he didn't have a case on EPM, but you said nothing about his suspicion of DH, who he had expressed less suspicion of. Sorry if I wasn't clear. I guess you missed this part of the post

Although, thank you for drawing attention to Parama's very light iso.

where I point out how empty his iso is.

Although, looking back at your original post, you do say something about leaving DH because he looks like an easy target, so maybe that caused you to not pay attention to that fact.

I didn't so much miss it, as consider it unrelated. I should have time for some proper analysis in the next 24 hours.

BM