Consulmaker II: the Pyrrhic War - Game over.

[Parama]

@Parama:

Who do you think is more likely scum, scotmany or SpyreX?

Scotmany, but it's a tough choice. I might have to reread the two. Which means I probably won't do it, but

[The Fonz]

Up to the end of page 15

________________________________________________________

Prozac 176- null at present, but likely to swing one way or another depending on if he actually

uses

this meta.

case three, Jack and ribwich are both town. I am not going to consider this case because in this case one of them is a complete idiot. the only possible way this could be, is if the mod had forced one townie to claim consulmaker. (mod, is there anything bastardly in this game?)

Sensible position, so long as you stick to it. However, I dislike the assertion that the tribune vote is essentially random. It isn't in general, and it certainly wasn't at the point the vote was made.

180: Yeah, Lowell really hasn't improved at all. Mildly interesting that he's still alive right now, actually, as when he's like this he's often lynchbait.

181 is interesting, because the normal reaction to claim-counterclaim is that the counterclaimant is far more likely to be genuine, and Sens hasn't actually given any reason why he believes otherwise.

Ok, 186 is just a headfuck.

Following from the above, a deliberately obtuse Sens is, I recall, one likely to be scum. If you don't act with lynching scum as your primary motivation, less info arises. - Sens.

+ Primate for pointing this out concisely and without hyperbole.


Prozac is not really proactive here. Also, I note that no-one has actually supplied his requested meta, and he's done nothing about it. -Prozac

214 is good, similar reasoning to my own for finding chess townish. + SpyreX

221 is good. Tentative + Sens.

225: Noting scum for tribunal advocacy. Lot of wifom there, but it probably works out to a -.

+ To Nate for not playing Powerrox' BS semantic games. - To powerrox for same, and the earlier lurking.

236: Yeah, of course you're bad at mafia Primate. Totally. No sarcasm here.

I think Sens is seriously underestimating the pain-in-the-assness of wifom resulting from a reprieved scum here.

273: Noting this as it's the first time I actually agree with Jack.

275: Meh, if I'm ever consuled, I'm not vetoing a guy the majority want dead unless I have a very strong town read. In games with governors, people are generally agreed that they should rarely use their power. What's different here?

287: Yeah, go Sens. Be even more of the immature child than he is. - Sens

Yeah, nice pejorative, Sens. Chesskid's style is annoying-noob, but he's clearly trying to scumhunt. His previous list contained some decent reasons (as well as a ton of hyperbole). That doesn't spell VI, stop using buzzwords to try to numb the town to what you're doing here.

307: Yeah, it's also not really that likely to be coming from scum. Get over yourself.

310: Yeah, no it's not. A bit of early-game trolling to elicit reactions never hurt anyone.

HEY CHESSKID, WAY TO LET THE WORLD KNOW YOU'RE NOT THE VIG, MORON.

324 (Scot): Is he an idiot or is he a scum? I'm confused.

Hmmm. I see chesskid's point, the 'I'm not the only one' argument can usually be scummy. But what Sens looks to me like he's doing is pointing out a logical inconsistency in the arguments of those attacking him. If any of the other consul/trib players wanted to lift the pressure on chesskid, they could have done so immediately. That they didn't indicates they didn't want to.

330: It's actually slap in the face level apparent to me that chesskid has actually scumhunted.

Hint: HE THINKS YOU'RE SCUM

- Sens

341: Sens, who criticised whom first?

348: where do we see any omgus? Uh, how about your repeated attempts to kill Chesskid for attacking you?

Katsuki 359: After the fishythefish debacle, I have absolutely no desire to let anyone get away with this kind of shit again. It is not acceptable to not post for 15 pages, then post to say you're not gonna post some more. - - Kat.

367: Yeah, Powerrox is scum. Low content and opportunistic. - - Powerrox.

[The Fonz]

LOL I should really keep the first post open when I readthrough to check that the obvscum I've just pointed out isn't dead town and I'm completely wasting my time.

[scotmany12]

I too do not see why people would want to let jack live. There i

s too much risk in letting him survive

. And I don't know why anyone would think he would be town after how long he dragged on his facade.

What risk do you see exactly?

How exactly is there not a risk? Let's assume we let him survive till endgame. Do you honestly think the thought that he was lying this whole time would not affect the actions of those in endgame? And the longer he lives, the less amount of time we have to analyze his posts if he is town. How do you honestly believe there is no risk in letting someone who fakeclaimed, and dragged on his facade rather than coming clean when we gave him the opportunity, live?

case three, Jack and ribwich are both town. I am not going to consider this case because in this case one of them is a complete idiot. the only possible way this could be, is if the mod had forced one townie to claim consulmaker. (mod, is there anything bastardly in this game?)

I'm glad fonz quoted this. You are now considering this possibility nate. Why?

324 (Scot): Is he an idiot or is he a scum? I'm confused.

The idiot comment was mostly out of frustration. I did find sens scummy during day one. I still do find him slightly scummy, but I think there are people out there that are even more scummy.

I really want to see more from both porochaz and primate. (

Can you prod both of them, mod?

)

[Nathanael]

I too do not see why people would want to let jack live. There i

s too much risk in letting him survive

. And I don't know why anyone would think he would be town after how long he dragged on his facade.

What risk do you see exactly?

How exactly is there not a risk? Let's assume we let him survive till endgame. Do you honestly think the thought that he was lying this whole time would not affect the actions of those in endgame? And the longer he lives, the less amount of time we have to analyze his posts if he is town. How do you honestly believe there is no risk in letting someone who fakeclaimed, and dragged on his facade rather than coming clean when we gave him the opportunity, live?

You are falling back on the same fallacy I showed above. You don't WANT him to win IN THE CASE he is scum, and therefore you lynch him, because it would be a to great shame to be tricked by a fakeclaim. You do not realize, however, that a scumwin is a scumwin, no matter if it is because of a fakeclaim or because we didn't believe a townie was gambitting.
The risk of leaving him alive is no greater than the risk of letting any non-confirmed player alive.
of course I do not trust him, but neither do I trust you or the rest of the town. He isn't more likely scum than anybody else (except for some slight townreads). We shouldn't let our judgment be clouded by the fact that the put the spotlight on him putting him in the focus.
As I said, I am open to scumtells, but I WILL NOT AGREE TO A LYNCH BASED ONLY ON HIS GAMBIT. he is even on the slight townish side right now for me, considering dramonic's attitude towards him.

case three, Jack and ribwich are both town. I am not going to consider this case because in this case one of them is a complete idiot. the only possible way this could be, is if the mod had forced one townie to claim consulmaker. (mod, is there anything bastardly in this game?)

I'm glad fonz quoted this. You are now considering this possibility nate. Why?

I changed my opinion. It's something that happens. I liked his posts. And I now see the town motivation of the gambit I didn't see before. Also, I still do not see the scum-motivation.

His gambit isn't in any way helping him. No, it is not.
His gambit has to be considered NULL by every sensible townie. Judge him on tells, on attacks, on slips, even on meta, BUT DO NOT JUDGE HIM ON HIS GAMBIT.
his gambit hasn't brought him ANY advantage if he is scum, and it will not in the future.
Whatever you might say, I think it did help town:
1) It forced ribwich to out, which was good. ribwhich might have feared something. If Jack were scum, he would know there was no danger to outing ribwich (assuming a danger would have manifested itself by now, I believe there is no such danger), and outing him would have only harmed his faction.
2) It brought a lot of insight into player's styles and opinions. I think it even brought some insights into alignment.

[SensFan]

You're a bigger idiot than I thought if you're sincerely making the argument that Jack didn't hurt the Town by lying for over a day about being Consulmaker.

[SpyreX]

Judge him on tells, on attacks, on slips, even on meta, BUT DO NOT JUDGE HIM ON HIS GAMBIT.

This would be awesome but go ahead and show me the myriad of things he's done that aren't a direct function of said gambit.

[Nathanael]

Judge him on tells, on attacks, on slips, even on meta, BUT DO NOT JUDGE HIM ON HIS GAMBIT.

This would be awesome but go ahead and show me the myriad of things he's done that aren't a direct function of said gambit.

nono, don't get me wrong. judge him on the things he says, how he behaves. If he makes a scummy post, attack him for it.
Just don't include THE FACT that he made a gambit.
there is ABSOLUTELY NO REASON why that gambit is more likely done by scum than by town.

You're a bigger idiot than I thought if you're sincerely making the argument that Jack didn't hurt the Town by lying for over a day about being Consulmaker.

yes, I am sincerely making that argument. Guess I'm a big idiot.
But you still have to tell me: WHY IS THAT GAMBIT MORE LIKELY TO COME FROM SCUM THAN FROM TOWN??

[scotmany12]

WHY IS THAT GAMBIT MORE LIKELY TO COME FROM SCUM THAN FROM TOWN??

Because people like you start to get lost in the wifom of it all and start to think he is town because of it.

[Nathanael]

^I am not thinking he is town BECAUSE of it. I just said we should judge him ON EVERYTHING ELSE, i.e. maybe he is town DESPITE the gambit or scum DESPITE the gambit.
if you can show me why he is scum, do so.
I say we should just IGNORE THE FACT HE PULLED A GAMBIT for all evaluation purposes. don't ignore what he does, what he says. You are so fixed with the fact that you want to punish his gambit, that you are totally ignoring what's the important part of the game: SCUMHUNTING.

PS: your post didn't answer the question at all.

[Nathanael]

You're a bigger idiot than I thought if you're sincerely making the argument that Jack didn't hurt the Town by lying for over a day about being Consulmaker.

instead of continuing to say that he hurt town, can you please tell me HOW he hurt town? what about the outcome of the past days didn't you like and you think would have gone better hadn't he fakeclaimed?

[SensFan]

If I ignore everything he has said that has to do with the gambit, then we're dealing with someone who hasn't posted at all in a game on page36 and D3.

[Nathanael]

STOP MISREPRESENTING ME!
I said ignore

THE FACT (!!!)

that he made a gambit for EVALUATION PURPOSES. not what he said or did around the gambit.
is that so hard to do for you?

let me help you a little, since you don't seem to get it.

Assume someone else made the gambit. OK? now, assume Jack saw that someone else's gambit and drew conclusions? OK?
what would you say about this posts?:
one
two:

We played in gears of war so I KNOW you know I'm not that dumb. I fakeclaimed a role there and got mafia lynched too.

You came in today knowing I was town and then realized that was a scum thing to know and are trying to back out of it. None of your stated reasons for thinking I was town could have changed by noting that I was "keeping up my consulmaker claim"...which I clearly wasn't. Your "holy shit, how'd I miss that?" post reads as "holy shit, I got myself in trouble saying he was town!".

three:

Execute: Jack

I wanna kill Reeeeeeeeeeck ;_;

Veto and execute xreck.

xreck's ungenuine waffling.

lowell's opportunistic forgetfullness.

scotmanies "I'm sure jack is scum" combined with cussing me out for a "stupid fucking gambit". If he was sure he'd caught jack-scum in this scenario it would be "haha, that was easy".

A lynch on me is lazy and crappy.

etc. (I am confident you are able to ISO Jack yourself)

____________________

Also, I want everybody who thinks Jack is scum to tell me whether they believe dramonic would be double bussing like that.
Or do they believe there is a second mafia faction?

[SensFan]

So wait. Ignore the ridiculously scummy thing he did, but evaluate the slightly pro-town things he's done as a direct result of the ridiculously scummy thing?

[Nathanael]

THE FAKECLAIM IS NOT SCUMMY. IT IS

NULL

!
SCUMMY=scum is more likely to do it.
WHY WOULD SCUM BE MORE LIKELY TO FAKECLAIM A REPLACEABLE POWERROLE?
scum gets absolutely NOTHING out of it. => scum has no more incentive to do it than town => not a scumtell
we do not want scum to get a free pass out of it either => not a towntell either => we treat it as NULL!

besides: ANSWER MY QUESTION ABOUT DRAMONIC! do you think that dramonic post was a double bus?

[Nathanael]

besides. how about just answering my questions for argument's sake even if you don't understand the reasons behind it?
It would help me scumhunt. Is there any drawback?

[Feysal]

Looked back, and found some posts I wanted to reply to.

Ah okay. I'm not very familiar with the bodyguard role, so I wasn't aware there were multiple types. Are bodyguards generally aware of whether they're regular or elite?

Noticed this post earlier, but had no time to reply and forgot later. I don't have experience with bodyguards either. I once gave the role as a mod, but I only told the player he could protect, so he thought he was a normal doctor. This is the first time I've encountered the role as a player.

Another thing that's occurred to me is we should pay more attention to the fact that only one kill happened night 1. Since the bodyguard is still alive, and it seems unlikely for there to be a doctor and a bodyguard, either there is no serial killer and it actually was a vigilante that killed dram, or a roleblocker prevented one of the kills the first night. If it's the second that's the case, and it wasn't reck or dram that they blocked, should the roleblocker claim now?

You're right, I neglected this earlier. On the site where I started playing mafia it is an unwritten rule that serial killers may only kill from the second night onwards. What happened this game was consistent with what I'm used to, so I forgot there is no such rule here. Based on this, we may have a vigilante after all, and he took a risky shot at dramonic. I find that more likely than a role blocker stopping one kill on the first night, but in case the town does have a role blocker, it could be a good idea to try blocking again whoever he blocked the first night.

Looks like I need to stick my neck out for the Katsuki/Magua slot once more. Can't be helped, I still think the slot is more likely to be town than not.

If you think that two of the names I gave have no chance for being scum, why would my words make any difference at all?

This was not directed at me, but I will provide my answer anyway. I know you're wrong about me, I believe you're wrong about Scotmany, and SpyreX probably too. Since you gave town points to Nathanael for vetoing your slot's execution, but not to me, I conclude you've not seen my defense of your slot at the end of day one. You did say you skipped reading most of that day. Admittedly I did not expect you to live, and I was mostly concerned with posting some of my thoughts before the day ended, but I still think you should read that before forming your opinion of me. You should read all of day one for that matter.

Anyway, since I believe you are probably wrong about all three of your scum reads, I have to wonder where they are coming from. Are you misinformed town, or are you scum, trying to push lynches on town? The difference is in the reasons. If you can point to valid concerns you may have with any of us, I can be satisfied with you being misinformed town. If your cases on us are bogus or nonexistent, scum starts to look more likely.

Besides, answering questions when they are asked is pro-town. Arguing semantics of whether it was a question in the first place is not, and countering the question with your own questions is not. You are stalling. You've lost the opportunity to earn town points with a timely answer, but I still want to know what led you to be suspicious of the three of us. Your response in #835 is too little to be satisfactory. If you need a reason to make cases on us, I'll give you this. Writing the cases on us would enable us to respond to them, and allow us to get a better read of you.

The first one I translate is "Why would you want confirmed town to be Tribune?" with the unstated add-on of "even though they executed scum yesterday".

The second I translate as "Don't piss off a consul, or they may execute you instead of executing scum," because, Lord knows, only scum would ever dare to piss off a consul.

I think both of your translations are off, particularly the first, due to the obvious factual error. Tribunes do not execute people, they veto executions. What ribwich in fact did was that he vetoed Jack's execution and voiced his suspicion of reckoner, but the actual execution was carried out by dramonic, another scum. You already made this mistake once in #818, so felt like I had to point it out. I don't think it matters really, I'm fine with ribwich being Tribune regardless.

As for the second, my common sense says not to pick pointless fights, with Consuls or anyone else, since that distracts everyone involved from actual scum hunting. You should not piss off a Consul, not because he can execute you, but because it is not helpful to the town in any way.

Oh, and happy New Year! Midnight just came around in my time zone.

[Nathanael]

Feysal goes back to null.

unvote Feysal

.

vote The Fonz

[SensFan]

THE FAKECLAIM IS NOT SCUMMY. IT IS

NULL

!
SCUMMY=scum is more likely to do it.
WHY WOULD SCUM BE MORE LIKELY TO FAKECLAIM A REPLACEABLE POWERROLE?
scum gets absolutely NOTHING out of it. => scum has no more incentive to do it than town => not a scumtell
we do not want scum to get a free pass out of it either => not a towntell either => we treat it as NULL!

Seriously, I don't get it. Why the hell are you people not willing to see him hang? His lie dominated D1, added absolutely nothing to anything until he's confirmed Town, and forced the Consulmaker to pick D2 Consuls from a randomized list of half the people. What in the name of Bahamut has he done to make people think he shouldn't be lynched?

---

besides: ANSWER MY QUESTION ABOUT DRAMONIC! do you think that dramonic post was a double bus?

I don't know, and I don't really care. I don't care if 4 people claim to be a guaranteedSane Cop with an Innocent on Jack. He needs to hang.

[Feysal]

Feysal goes back to null.

I do? If it was something I said in my last post, could you point me to what you disagree with?

If it was something I did not say, I wanted to get that post out of the way before trying to make sense of Jack.

[Nathanael]

Town

ribwich (~) >> The Fonz (replacing Mert) (+) > Jack (+) = Magua (replacing Katsuki) (-)

Null

Feysal (replacing Rabies) (-) = Primate (~) = SpyreX (~) = Leon Belmont (replacing horrordude0215) (~) > Porochaz (-) = Parama (replacing chesskid3) (+)

Scum

scotmany12 (-) = Lowell () > SensFan (-)

Current trend is shown: +...getting townier; -...getting scummier; ~... staying same

Feysal goes back to null.

I do? If it was something I said in my last post, could you point me to what you disagree with?

If it was something I did not say, I wanted to get that post out of the way before trying to make sense of Jack.

Yes, it was something in your last post. if you can find it and explain it, I could accept that and put you back to townish.
if I have to point it out for you, I'll leave you at null.

[scotmany12]

THE FAKECLAIM IS NOT SCUMMY.

Yes it is. You're entire behavior about it is why scum would claim it. Saying scum gain no benefit from it is exactly what he would want you to say. He either gets away with being viewed as consulmaker until the real one is killed, or he successfully forces the majority of the discussion onto his fakeclaim, and turns the game into one big argument over it. Like what is happening now. Thinks for one second and realize scum have benefit for doing this.

Also, I want everybody who thinks Jack is scum to tell me whether they believe dramonic would be double bussing like that.

If all three of them are scum together, dram had no other choice but to bus both of them. He had already constantly expressed his belief that reck was scum, and jack had continued his gambit to the point where had dramonic gave him the pass, we would have known something was up. It is possible that there are two scumgroups though. Regardless, I believe jack to be scum and that he needs to be killed.

[scotmany12]

What has parama done to make you think he is no longer scum? You sure seemed adamant about him being scum at the beginning of the day.

[Parama]

Oh don't worry scot, Nath is scum and his reads can change as much as they want to as a result.

[Nathanael]

What has parama done to make you think he is no longer scum? You sure seemed adamant about him being scum at the beginning of the day.

I liked The Fonz' post on chesskid being townish and put Parama back to null.
Parama, you can thank you predecessor.

Yes it is. You're entire behavior about it is why scum would claim it. Saying scum gain no benefit from it is exactly what he would want you to say. He either gets away with being viewed as consulmaker until the real one is killed, or he successfully forces the majority of the discussion onto his fakeclaim, and turns the game into one big argument over it. Like what is happening now. Thinks for one second and realize scum have benefit for doing this.

and you need to see also that:
1. town might have a benefit too. e.g. Jack's arguments about scum KNOWING there are two 2 claiming, while town don't makes sense.
2. scum have a disadvantage of being put in the spotlight

also, making most of the discussion rotate around the fakeclaim is what YOU are doing. I am trying to convince you to just ignore it.

Oh don't worry scot, Nath is scum and his reads can change as much as they want to as a result.

lol.