Consulmaker II: the Pyrrhic War - Game over.

[SensFan]

Evens/Odds, I beleive.

[Feysal]

Hello SpyreX. Hello Katsuki. Bye Katsuki. Hello everyone else I've not played with before.

I'm replacing Rabies, and I've read about a third of the game so far. I will read the rest tomorrow before the execution happens. I have no opinion yet on whether Katsuki deserves execution this game, but I will say that she is an easy target to get mislynched.

Reading about the two Consulmaker claims and the plans to find which of them was lying was certainly interesting. I saw some patently bad ideas, but fortunately there are players with common sense around, and all the ideas I had while reading were invariably mentioned by someone. Anyway, I think it is obvious that one of them is lying scum, though I cannot fathom what the scum hope to accomplish by it.

Time is running short, so I will just go ahead and propose a plan. As discussed, all players will be divided in two groups. Jack has to choose the next consuls from one group, and ribwich has to choose them from the other. Even if one consul dies, the one surviving consul and the identity of the night kill will indicate which of them is telling the truth. Just in case the real Consulmaker has yet to reveal himself, then this third Consulmaker should choose one consul from each of the two groups. Clear enough? I should hope so.

How the players are divided into groups is irrelevant, as long as it is arbitrary and has nothing to do with anyone's reads. I will just use the order of the playerlist. The current consuls are removed from the lists since they cannot be consuls for two consecutive days, as well as the two Consulmaker candidates, for obvious reasons. Even/odd won't work because both current consuls are even, meaning the groups would not have equal size that way.

Group A - Jack has to select consuls from these

1. chamber
2. Feysal (replacing Rabies)
3. SpyreX
4. Powerrox93
6. Mert
9. Primate
11. xRECKONERx

Group B - ribwich has to select consuls from these

12. Porochaz
13. dramonic
14. horrordude0215
15. Parama (replacing chesskid3)
16. inHimshallibe
17. scotmany12
19. Lowell

have we decided on the two lists for the consulmakers yet? if yes, must have missed it, show me.
it is necessary we do that before a lynch.
I also want both consulmakers to explicitly agree with it by quoting it, so there are no misunderstandings.

Hope these lists work for both Jack and ribwich.

More to come tomorrow before the deadline, once I've had some sleep and read the rest of the thread.

[SensFan]

I like it. I like it especially because one person arbitrarily chose a way to split the lists. More info for us later.

[Powerrox93]

Hello Feysal!

Your idea about the conculmakers looks good. Let's use that idea.

[ribwich]

Hello SpyreX. Hello Katsuki. Bye Katsuki. Hello everyone else I've not played with before.

I'm replacing Rabies, and I've read about a third of the game so far. I will read the rest tomorrow before the execution happens. I have no opinion yet on whether Katsuki deserves execution this game, but I will say that she is an easy target to get mislynched.

Reading about the two Consulmaker claims and the plans to find which of them was lying was certainly interesting. I saw some patently bad ideas, but fortunately there are players with common sense around, and all the ideas I had while reading were invariably mentioned by someone. Anyway, I think it is obvious that one of them is lying scum, though I cannot fathom what the scum hope to accomplish by it.

Time is running short, so I will just go ahead and propose a plan. As discussed, all players will be divided in two groups. Jack has to choose the next consuls from one group, and ribwich has to choose them from the other. Even if one consul dies, the one surviving consul and the identity of the night kill will indicate which of them is telling the truth. Just in case the real Consulmaker has yet to reveal himself, then this third Consulmaker should choose one consul from each of the two groups. Clear enough? I should hope so.

How the players are divided into groups is irrelevant, as long as it is arbitrary and has nothing to do with anyone's reads. I will just use the order of the playerlist. The current consuls are removed from the lists since they cannot be consuls for two consecutive days, as well as the two Consulmaker candidates, for obvious reasons. Even/odd won't work because both current consuls are even, meaning the groups would not have equal size that way.

Group A - Jack has to select consuls from these

1. chamber
2. Feysal (replacing Rabies)
3. SpyreX
4. Powerrox93
6. Mert
9. Primate
11. xRECKONERx

Group B - ribwich has to select consuls from these

12. Porochaz
13. dramonic
14. horrordude0215
15. Parama (replacing chesskid3)
16. inHimshallibe
17. scotmany12
19. Lowell

have we decided on the two lists for the consulmakers yet? if yes, must have missed it, show me.
it is necessary we do that before a lynch.
I also want both consulmakers to explicitly agree with it by quoting it, so there are no misunderstandings.

Hope these lists work for both Jack and ribwich.

More to come tomorrow before the deadline, once I've had some sleep and read the rest of the thread.

Quoting to show that this is the plan I will be using when selecting consuls.

[SpyreX]

JESUS PICK A PLAN AND GO

a) want the katsuki lynch
a) want the katsuki lynch
a) want the katsuki lynch

GUYS

[Nathanael]

JESUS PICK A PLAN AND GO

a) want the katsuki lynch
a) want the katsuki lynch
a) want the katsuki lynch

GUYS

why?

[Parama]

Hello Feysal!

Your idea about the conculmakers looks good. Let's use that idea.

Hi scum.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

As things stand, Katsuki will be executed in a little over an hour.

[Parama]

This is great news

[Feysal]

I thought Katsuki's execution time was in GMT, still two hours or more away?

If it is in fifteen minutes or so, I am not going to finish my read of the thread before that, I've still got some pages to go. However... from a quick ISO read of Katsuki I feel this is a mislynch for lurking. I'm also worried it was SensFan who gave the order, given his earlier talk of lynching for information on day one. How much information are we going to get from lynching a lurker? I don't think this is a good idea. Maybe reading the final pages properly would convince me otherwise, but at the moment I very much doubt that.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Uh. I blame my lack of sleep. Yeah, day goes on for 2 more hoursish.

[Nathanael]

VETO: KATSUKI'S EXECUTION

EXECUTE: KATSUKI

I want to give replacements a little more time.
I am however willing to lynch Katsuki later.

[Parama]

i hope u die

[Feysal]

I finished reading the thread, and as expected, my opinion of this execution did not change. I believe Katsuki is town. She has been useless, that is true, but for Katsuki this is par for the course, even the replacing out when lynched. This lynch has all the signs of a scum-driven mislynch on an easy target. I could be wrong, but I don't think the chance of Katsuki being scum is any higher than when picking any player at random.

@everyone: I want a definite statement on whether you:
a) want the katsuki lynch
b) are comfortable with the katsuki lynch
c) are uncomfortable with the katsuki lynch
d) don't want the katsuki lynch

Definitely c.

I frankly don't give a damn about their reasons. Reasons are nothing but a way to hedge their bets. I just want a letter.

You say you want a letter, and you were not even the one asking questions. I just gave one, but if I had not explained my reasoning, what good would that be? If everyone just voted and declared their reads with no reasoning to back it up, all those votes and reads would be useless. You have to demand for actual reasoning, and analyze it to find the town motivation behind it, or lack thereof. That is how you find scum, not by asking pointless data without context.

There is very little time left until the execution, but I will go on record before the night that I am very much in disagreement with you. Early on, you said you wanted to lynch for information, yet you have done nothing to actually gather information. The only consul to ask meaningful questions has been Nathaniel. Your first execution target, chesskid3, was just a village idiot, and you posted your execution at a time when few people had commented on him, and there were no pseudo-votes yet. Had the execution been carried out, what information would have been gained from that? What information will we gain from lynching Katsuki, save her alignment? You've made no effort I can see to actually collect information and get definite stances from people.

My conclusion: you are either playing terribly for town, or you are scum pretending to play badly. My bet is on the latter.

Otherwise, my bet on the true Consulmaker is ribwich. Did anyone actually check the game he said he had used to decide? I did. Most of the discussion about confirming the Consulmaker has come from him, while Jack has appeared to avoid the subject. ribwich has consistently made plenty of sense and involved himself in the game. For that, I believe and sincerely hope he is the true Consulmaker.

I'd probably have other reads, but time is up. This needs to be posted now.

Preview edit: I see Nathaniel gave Katsuki an extension. We should make use of it. If we are going to lynch Katsuki, then at least we should try to get as many players as possible to give a stance on whether they agree on the lynch. With reasoning please, just posting a random letter is useless in detecting scum motivations.

[xRECKONERx]

Has the execution happened yet?
I want blood, damnit.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Execution is on tuesday.

[ribwich]

Feysal, a couple of people have suggested the idea that Jack and I are both town. Primate (I believe) has said that it's too stupid of a move for scum to do, and parama hasn't given an explanation despite me asking for one twice, but thinks that its obvious we're both town. What do you think about this idea and the players that suggested it?

There's some other things I wanted to say, but I'm posting this from a phone and its too difficult to get to the right quotes. I'll try to have a post tonight.

[SensFan]

VETO: KATSUKI'S EXECUTION

EXECUTE: KATSUKI

I want to give replacements a little more time.
I am however willing to lynch Katsuki later.

Keep doing that, and I will force a No Lynch. This is getting fucking retarded.

[Feysal]

Feysal, a couple of people have suggested the idea that Jack and I are both town. Primate (I believe) has said that it's too stupid of a move for scum to do, and parama hasn't given an explanation despite me asking for one twice, but thinks that its obvious we're both town. What do you think about this idea and the players that suggested it?

Primate indeed brought up that theory of you both being town. Of course, that could be an attempt to indirectly defend fellow scum, but there were two players who said such a theory would be typical of him. While reading, I had some doubts about Primate, and I remain uncertain whether I should trust him. Once I get to doing ISO reads, that should make things more clear.

As for Parama, I disagreed with many of his reads in #396. He said that Jack was obvtown for claiming in the first place, and you were obvtown for counterclaiming. He admitted that Jack was more likely to be scum, but considered Rabies thinking the same to indicate otherwise. I'm not exactly thrilled that he made his read on Jack partly dependent on his read on my slot, and the way he seems to have disregarded the possibility of a scum ploy is worrisome. There is also the fact that he replaced into chesskid3's slot. I have read one of his games, and I am in an active (sort of) game with him, and he was different in all three. Overall, I really don't know what to think of Parama, I am getting mixed signals from his slot.

I don't think it is a very reasonable theory that you would both be town. When I first read your counterclaim, I did remember the scene from the movie Spartacus, where his soldiers rise and claim to be him to protect their commander. But, the Consulmaker is not a true power role that would need to be protected, so town would have no reason to counterclaim. Doing so would only lead to the situation we're in, where it is likely that one of you is lynched. Experienced players would know this, and I cannot see either of you as a Stimpy-grade idiot (he once counterclaimed the doctor in an open setup where he was the cop, resulting in both power roles dead and LYLO by day 2).

Question is, would scum claiming Consulmaker make any more sense? At first glance no, but there may be some mechanic involved we don't know about. For instance, the scum could have a role blocker and plan to force the Consulmaker into revealing himself, only to keep blocking him from selecting new consuls. There may be some hidden purpose in scum doing this which we cannot see.

We should be wiser tomorrow, but I fear the scum have some way of messing with the Consulmaker.

[SpyreX]

:headdesk:

Feysal is fairly awesome while being super wrong about Sens.

The only other thing that has happened makes me seethe with rage. So

[ribwich]

However... from a quick ISO read of Katsuki I feel this is a mislynch for lurking.

I believe Katsuki is town. She has been useless, that is true, but for Katsuki this is par for the course, even the replacing out when lynched.

I disagree with this. Although I can't comment on if this is common for Katsuki, there's more to the lynch than just the lurking. There's been the couple of times to suggest that Kat actually has been paying attention to this thread. (I still don't think the first instance was really that strong of a case since there are ways to explain it, but when another one pops up it makes me rethink it.) Kat also tried calling Spy scum just for being called out on this behavior, which is probably the closest to omgus voting you can get in this game.

I could be wrong, but I don't think the chance of Katsuki being scum is any higher than when picking any player at random.

Is there someone you think has a better case against them that isn't immune today and isn't claiming consulmaker?

i hope u die

Has the execution happened yet?
I want blood, damnit.

Keep doing that, and I will force a No Lynch. This is getting fucking retarded.

The comments like these are just annoying. There's nothing wrong with what Nathanael is doing. Why would you want the day to end early before replacements get a chance to contribute to the game? Plus, Jack still hasn't confirmed if he's going to use the plan. He probably won't, but let's not give him a chance to go "you guys ended the day before I could say I wasn't going to use that to pick consuls."

[ribwich]

Question is, would scum claiming Consulmaker make any more sense? At first glance no, but there may be some mechanic involved we don't know about. For instance, the scum could have a role blocker and plan to force the Consulmaker into revealing himself, only to keep blocking him from selecting new consuls. There may be some hidden purpose in scum doing this which we cannot see.

We should be wiser tomorrow, but I fear the scum have some way of messing with the Consulmaker.

I was really worried about something like this after I counterclaimed, but the more I think about the more I feel it will still be worth it if this is the case. If it turns out they've gotten such a hold over me that I've become a liability to town, there would have to be a vig for balance purposes to take me out. We still get a free ticket to the identity of one scum member, and any future consulmaker will be made more aware of what can happen with a claim.

[SensFan]

Keep doing that, and I will force a No Lynch. This is getting fucking retarded.

The comments like these are just annoying. There's nothing wrong with what Nathanael is doing. Why would you want the day to end early before replacements get a chance to contribute to the game? Plus, Jack still hasn't confirmed if he's going to use the plan. He probably won't, but let's not give him a chance to go "you guys ended the day before I could say I wasn't going to use that to pick consuls."

If Nathanael vetos this execution again, I'm probably going to refuse to let Kat get lynched today.

[Lowell]

Not totally caught up, but I'm also of the opinion that consulmakers should claim at the slightest provocation... and maybe even without it.