AlmasterGM wrote:I seriously contemplated nightkilling G&H. Yes, my push to lynch him was a bus, but the rage was 100% real. I wanted him dead. I was REALLY scared he would blow my cover (either deliberately or on accident). I also thought gonnano might be a cop.
Fortunately, the whole lover thing solved that.
Zachrulez wrote:
AlmasterGM wrote:I seriously contemplated nightkilling G&H. Yes, my push to lynch him was a bus, but the rage was 100% real. I wanted him dead. I was REALLY scared he would blow my cover (either deliberately or on accident). I also thought gonnano might be a cop.
Fortunately, the whole lover thing solved that.
It really did feel like we were a 2 man scumteam.
THIS
is what I'm talking about G&H. Your playstyle is going to be a detriment to
EVERY
game you ever play in, and is 100% against any win condition. The only way this playstyle could
possibly
work is if you pulled a 3rd party role, like an SK.
The Newbie Queue ALWAYS needs ICs and Mods!
Are you willing to help out? Check the Queue title to see what roles we need filled!
Well, I just can't agree that my playstyle is "detrimental to the town". What I'm trying to do is interact with everyone, ask questions, share observations - i.e., I want there to be as much information as possible to help solve the case. Of course, everyone's free to interpret that information however they wish. I'll once again give my second game on this site (Newbie 975) as an example - there I was killed on Night 1! And in the post-game comments the mafiosi explained that they killed me first because I was "very investigative". Here's a direct quote from one of the mafiosi: "Your play is potentially useful to the right town, and dangerous to an anti town force". So if the mafiosi perceive me as such a big threat, is my playstyle really "detrimental to the town"?
Then in my third game (Newbie 983) one mafioso was lynched on Day 1. On Day 2 a couple of players were convinced that another player was the second mafioso. I pointed out some things about the interactions between the mafioso and the suspected player which, in my opinion, showed that they weren't partners... while I pointed out that there was nothing in the interactions between the mafioso and a third player that showed they weren't partners (and that third player did turn out to be the second mafioso!). Also, as the suspected player, who was an innocent townsperson, noted, I was the only one to really interrogate the second mafioso on Day 1... Once again, I don't see how that was "detrimental to the town".
By the way, during this game drmyshottyizsik only made a couple of statements without any explanations. There was one exception - post #464, where drmyshottyizsik gives reasons for suspecting Zachrulez. Who asked drmyshottyizsik to give those reasons? I.
I do agree (and I have said it myself) that my playstyle is detrimental to the MAFIA - regardless of my role in any particular game. But I don't quite understand why anyone (apart from the mafia) would want to lynch me for that...
And now about Hoopla's points:
Hoopla, reading a mystery book is a good suggestion but that's quite a different experience because it's not interactive. Yes, I might have my suspicions about who the criminal is but it's the detective in the book that makes all the investigations and I can't ask the suspects any questions, I can only read the detective's questions. That's the great thing about the game of Mafia - it's interactive so I can really feel like I'm the detective. And I do think it's best (and certainly most interesting) when each player interacts with each other player...
I'm not sure why you're constantly repeating that I'm saying nothing or that I'm not giving any analysis at all. I feel like I have said quite a lot of things (in fact, here I have said more than in any of my previous three games) and I do think I have given analysis (then again, like I discussed with redtail896, maybe we mean different things with "analysis")...
I'm not really fond of focusing on the "likeliest" scenario because (as I have said before) I don't like easy solutions. Let's talk about mystery books again - imagine that there is one main suspect for the crime... and in the end it turns out that exactly that person is the criminal! Not very interesting, is it? That's why in mystery books the main suspect usually isn't the criminal... Of course, the game of Mafia is not quite the same but I have seen games on this site where the "likeliest" scenario isn't true... In any case, I don't think there's anything wrong with considering the different possibilities (no matter how "likely" they are) - in fact, for me that's one of the most enjoyable things in the game!
By the way, I'm not sure if anyone learned that AlmasterGM was a "Roleblocker" in this game. Also, if Zachrulez and AlmasterGM are willing to, they may post the QuickTopic so that AGar can find out what their reasons for the Night 1 kill were...
1) You want to be "good and honest" but as scum you're a lying, conniving, sonofabitch scumbag who should be willing to do whatever it takes to win. Machiavelli type shit. By not wanting to lie to the town, you're a detriment to your team when you draw scum because the town can pin you very easily. That automatically dogs the scumteam down a man. Also, your refusal to submit a kill hurts the team in that any time a watcher/tracker type role is present, they automatically have one less target to follow, increasing the odds of a hit on your partners. It also borderlines on not playing to your win condition if you're the only scum-member left.
2) You refuse to vote unless you know someone is scum. This means you essentially refuse to take a solid position, and anyone who relies on vote analysis can't read you. Being readable is pro-town. Being obstinate and stubborn is not.
In the end, you're not realizing something. Mafia isn't a single-player game. When you sign up for a game, you're not the only one. Your playstyle isn't fun to play with, analyze or isolate, and by joining games and insisting on playing like this, you're sucking the fun out of the game for a number of other people. I fully warn you that you should expect to be policy lynched repeatedly until you either change your playstyle or something else occurs.
Ski mask? Check! Sawed off? Check! Guilty conscience, fear of death? Check! Check! Check!
Tracker/Doc v RB/Goon with a town/scum lover pair.
Meh, it was kinda bland (sorry!).
Then again, most mini normal setups run that way, if you think about it.
It wasn't a bad setup, by any means. My perspective is a bit biased in that I only played a single day, so I didn't get to experience much, but I do think it worked out well for the most part. Might have been more effective if the town wasn't as apathetic, as the roles may have made more of an impact, but that's not really anything you could do. The biggest one that actually did anything was the lover pair, honestly. I know someone had a gripe about it, but double town lovers would be a horrid idea I think. I dunno, I'm fairly unfamiliar with the role.
I'm a bit of a harlot in that I like a little more mod presence in terms of votecounts (once per 24h), but I know some people don't care, so that's just me.
Ski mask? Check! Sawed off? Check! Guilty conscience, fear of death? Check! Check! Check!
I would steer clear of the lover pairing in the future. (Unless you can establish a willingness to use same alignment pairings.) The meta here on lovers in general in anything but open games does not bode well for the scum who draws the role.
From a balance standpoint it works, but from a player standpoint, it would be frustrating to have few avenues of survival because of the role you draw.
Having a scum/scum pairing for this game would have likely accomplished the same thing you intended balance wise, but at least both sides of the pairing have a vested interest in not being outted and protecting the other from death. Not so much in a town/scum pairing. Town/Town pairings don't seem to have any real legwork in the site meta cause no one seems to ever take the possibility seriously.
Zachrulez wrote:I would steer clear of the lover pairing in the future. (Unless you can establish a willingness to use same alignment pairings.) The meta here on lovers in general in anything but open games does not bode well for the scum who draws the role.
From a balance standpoint it works, but from a player standpoint, it would be frustrating to have few avenues of survival because of the role you draw.
Having a scum/scum pairing for this game would have likely accomplished the same thing you intended balance wise, but at least both sides of the pairing have a vested interest in not being outted and protecting the other from death. Not so much in a town/scum pairing. Town/Town pairings don't seem to have any real legwork in the site meta cause no one seems to ever take the possibility seriously.
town/town can be devastating to town and needs a lot of power to balance it. That's kind of the problem with the inclusion of either town/scum or town/town, a massclaim is going to heavily indicate the alignment of the pairing when you assume the mod is aiming for a relatively balanced game.
Zachrulez wrote:town/town can be devastating to town and needs a lot of power to balance it. That's kind of the problem with the inclusion of either town/scum or town/town, a massclaim is going to heavily indicate the alignment of the pairing when you assume the mod is aiming for a relatively balanced game.
This is very true.
I had no qualms with the set-up overall, Esp - I actually think the lover dynamic was quite creative, although it was obvious the pair was scum/town from a balance perspective. Despite linking a scum in a lover relationship - town did still feel slightly underpowered. Doctor/Tracker isn't very much, particularly when scum has an RB to counter this too. Another weak town PR wouldn't have gone astray, but it wasn't a particularly jarring issue. Town had a decent chance of winning.
See the balance thing was a big part of what I did. When I first made it Town was overpowered by a tad. And my setup reviewer picked that up and told me so I weakened the town by making the cop a tracker. Then it looks the opposite but I figured it wouldn't matter because I changed the wording of the Lover Pair from chat to no chat and from instant suicide to delayed which fixed the endgame issue as well as putting some more power in the town's hands. Normally a paor be it lovers or siblings usually has the town element being a cop which actually played on the scum's thinking. In the end this did come up in the scumchat which meant that my psyche balancing worked so while the role may make it look slightly off balance the way I set up the lover pair was designed to change that and it worked. 3 man lylo means that both sides had a chance of winning and noone had it in the bag at any point.
Good and Honest wrote:
I'm not really fond of focusing on the "likeliest" scenario because (as I have said before) I don't like easy solutions. Let's talk about mystery books again - imagine that there is one main suspect for the crime... and in the end it turns out that exactly that person is the criminal! Not very interesting, is it? That's why in mystery books the main suspect usually isn't the criminal... Of course, the game of Mafia is not quite the same but I have seen games on this site where the "likeliest" scenario isn't true... In any case, I don't think there's anything wrong with considering the different possibilities (no matter how "likely" they are) - in fact, for me that's one of the most enjoyable things in the game!
You're going to lose more games than you win with that attitude. Sure, an occasional long-shot theory will pay off once in a while, but it won't happen as often as the likeliest scenario. I don't understand why you would ignore your best chance of winning. I kind of don't think you understand it either. So let me put it in a more visually friendly manner;
There is a bag with 100 balls in it. 40 are blue, 30 are red, 20 are yellow and 10 are green. Your task is to guess the right colour ball that you will randomly pick out of the bag. There is no guarenteed way to pick the right answer each time, and going with blue still gives you a less than a coinflip's chance of winning. But it's still stupid and suboptimal to ignore blue on the chance green might come up. There is no extra reward for picking a statistically unlikely scenario. It just means you lose more often in the long run if you play multiple games.
There's nothing wrong with considering other possibilities in a game of mafia - we never know the true odds of someone's lynch turning up town or scum (if you're playing as town), but you also don't want to waste your time engaging in time-consuming long-shot endeavors, where many other players seem like better chances of being scum. In the end, you're letting
those
players off the hook, just because you want your pet theory to come true.
Zachrulez wrote:town/town can be devastating to town and needs a lot of power to balance it. That's kind of the problem with the inclusion of either town/scum or town/town, a massclaim is going to heavily indicate the alignment of the pairing when you assume the mod is aiming for a relatively balanced game.
Maybe I just like games that shake normal convention, I don't know. I think town lovers, cop, weak doc might be interesting, especially with a godfather or miller.
The AGar kill makes more sense now -- I agree that he wasn't in much danger of being lynched soon.
With regard to the setup, I didn't especially enjoy being a lover. Purely from an enjoyment standpoint, I think it would be good to counter the extra personal liability with some sort of inside information, although I can see that in this game the lover chat was scrapped for balance reasons. Honestly, I'm skeptical about the practicality of using lover pairs in mini games, because I don't think a 12 person game gives quite enough room to accommodate them.
Some men are born mediocre, some achieve mediocrity, and some have mediocrity thrust upon them.
- Joseph Heller
