Mini 1075 - Fishtown Mafia

[DavidParker]

Empking is town. Lay off him.

As it stands, scum are just sitting back enjoying themselves, because they have an easy target in empking (for suggesting the massclaim, and myself (for claiming empking is town and not justifying my reads when we are only 4-5 pages into the game).. How about we go after someone who is scum now?

I doubt scum would be on same wagon, so look for one on empking's and one on mine. And we set.

HF+Fallen Angel seems like a combo to go with right now.

[Empking]

OK. This is a normal game, 11 players. We're mass claiming today right now. (Popcorning of course.) I'd like nocmen to start us up. (i'd like people to take into account the fact that since the death of the cop role I can only see good things from this.)

OK boss...I claaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaim...wait. You aren't the boss.

WTH are you trying to do?

I for one have nothing worth claiming, scum aren't going to claim, and

any PR stupid enough to claim is just going to out themself into an easy NK.

But I'm happy to listen to your rationale. Or are you just looking for reactions to your request to work with?

There's a far less chance of there being a cop in this game than there were years ago.

huh?

(bold mine)
Everyone: What dop you think of HF's premature vanilla claim?
DP: Can you vote HF then.

[cruelty]

DP:

WHY are they a good combo to look at?

WHY is empking town?


the fact is, this game hinges on justifying your reads. it's fine to have gut reads but if you're not at least detailing the process by which you came to your conclusions they're fundamentally meaningless.


your entire game seems to consist of saying something with no justification and then... well that's about it. it's unhelpful in the extreme.


preview edit:

emp i'm not entirely sure that's actually a vanilla claim, given that he goes on to say that "any PR stupid enough to claim is just going to out themself into an easy NK". it's pretty null, even within the context of a single sentence.

(for the record though i don't really have a problem with early vanilla claims, i'd think they'd generally tend to imply vanilla or scum, not town pr).

[Fishythefish]

Day 1, Votecount 6

DavidParker (3) –singersigner, fallen angel, Nocmen
Empking (3) - havingfitz, AdumbroDeus, cruelty
havingfitz (1) - Empking
fallen angel (1) - DavidParker

Not voting (3) – ConfidAnon, xenophon, Lrdwhyt

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch

Activity Check!

xenophon and ConfidAnon are being prodded.

[singersigner]

I've looked through DP's other games, and I have nothing wrong with keeping my vote on him, he definitely seems like at best a detriment to the town.

Can you embellish a little? In the games I've seen with him, I've

really

seen them. I've watched each of them pan out, and know exactly what DP does...but can you say the same just from browsing through? I just want to be confident that you think he's more than just a VI, and not just using Meta against him.

The notion that I am a VI is preposterous and just a quick look at some of my recent games will make it obvious that I have done all my "strange/crazy/non-sensical" actions with a purpose in mind. But really, we should be looking at this game and not discussing player meta and game theory at this point.

Aaaahhh...I don't see a point in you 1) forgetting your role, 2)THREE EFFING TIMES false-claiming as a VT, 3) stopping by every now and then with no contributions except to either defend yourself, or post fluff.

I'm sure you're a very nice individual in real life.

[fallen angel]

V/LA until Friday.

Sorry, but the semester's ending and I'm too busy to devote the necessary amount of attention. I'd be interested in why I'm scum, DP, other than the fact that I'm voting you.

Noted, thanks

[fallen angel]

Also,

Unvote

, just 'cuz I don't want that to influence anything in my absence.

[havingfitz]

So mod...what's up with xenophon?

One confirm post 4 days ago and that's it.

xenophon has recently beeen prodded.

[AdumbroDeus]

If EMP flips town, DP is is likely scum attempting to use a town-flip to gain credibility.







I will again point to my core reasoning as well as suggest another possible reason (channeling Fate is obviously not working atm).

1. Because EMP believed he was strong enough compared to the rest of us to force a mass-claim.

2. Trying to force PRs to committ tells early in the game so they can be NK'd.

[Nocmen]

HF is my main suspect because his reaction to my MC idea didn't seem like honest reaction "town PRs will claim VT"

My reaction was honest and based on the fact it was a stupid idea....which was shared by several others in this game. And when you use quotation marks you should actually be quoting something the person you are quoting said. I never said "town PRs will claim VT" nor anything close to it. Another misrep on your part. A lie. You have been a lot less active since your intial MC bravado. Are you floundering a bit? You are acting scummy. Still happy with my vote.

And for those voting DP or not at all....voting scummy play (Emp) is always better than voting bad play (a growing sentiment towards DP).

The thing is though, the main reason against Emp (The MC) is blatant WIFOM.

DP seem's so certain of everything, and as I stated before, I'd take a certain lynch on someone who has the largest chance for anti-town play, over a probability flip like most other D1 lynches.

@DP: If we are all voting you for not justifying your reads, please do. I think pressure would hold you to that more than any number of pages.

[AdumbroDeus]

The thing is though, the main reason against Emp (The MC) is blatant WIFOM.

DP seem's so certain of everything, and as I stated before, I'd take a certain lynch on someone who has the largest chance for anti-town play, over a probability flip like most other D1 lynches.

How is it WIFOM? Please explain.

[Nocmen]

The thing is though, the main reason against Emp (The MC) is blatant WIFOM.

DP seem's so certain of everything, and as I stated before, I'd take a certain lynch on someone who has the largest chance for anti-town play, over a probability flip like most other D1 lynches.

How is it WIFOM? Please explain.

As mentioned before, Emp's suggestion of a MC seems to be much more beneficial to scum than town. So it's a huge scum tell, but a person such as Emp would know of that, and wouldn't make it as scum. Whether it's beneficial for the town is another question though.

[DavidParker]

I've stated why I think empking is town.

The reasons for thinking those 2 is scummy is because the way they voted+made cases seemed like oppurtunistic scum. Their votes didn't seem "sincere" but rather them trying to push a mislynch-wagon through (and this strenghtened my town read on empking)

The MC is obviously largely WIFOM (Although not entirely), it's not a good suggestion to make as town, but then how does it help him if he's scum? IT just puts him in the limelight and gains negative attention (Something I know all too well, and believe within reason is a good way to start a day), so with that I find it more likely a town than scum would do it, and the way he dealt with it after was very town.

Do the townies out of you who are on my/emp's wagons plan on doing some legit scum hunting and go after people who are actually scum on our wagons?? Or are you happy to vote for me for being known for anti-town behaviour and empking for getting discussion started by drawing some negative attention to him.

[AdumbroDeus]

The thing is though, the main reason against Emp (The MC) is blatant WIFOM.

DP seem's so certain of everything, and as I stated before, I'd take a certain lynch on someone who has the largest chance for anti-town play, over a probability flip like most other D1 lynches.

How is it WIFOM? Please explain.

As mentioned before, Emp's suggestion of a MC seems to be much more beneficial to scum than town. So it's a huge scum tell, but a person such as Emp would know of that, and wouldn't make it as scum. Whether it's beneficial for the town is another question though.

Town has no reason to make themselves insanely scummy (somewhat scummy yes as a PR), so there's no town objective here.


WIFORM is basically multiple equally likely results, an example is:

I have two glasses of wine in front of me, one is poisoned, which one is it?



However, there's a very clear motive for scum here (MC is good as for scum, as is the PR tells they can generate by analyzing the claiming discussion), how does town benefit? Best case is town doesn't massclaim and knows enough to not drop PR tells in discussion, but we have less daylight and town is ended up focused on a townie.


Where's the town benefit? If you can find me an equally strong town benefit it's WIFORM, otherwise it's a scumslip and you're misusing the term.

[Nocmen]

The thing is though, the main reason against Emp (The MC) is blatant WIFOM.

DP seem's so certain of everything, and as I stated before, I'd take a certain lynch on someone who has the largest chance for anti-town play, over a probability flip like most other D1 lynches.

How is it WIFOM? Please explain.

As mentioned before, Emp's suggestion of a MC seems to be much more beneficial to scum than town. So it's a huge scum tell, but a person such as Emp would know of that, and wouldn't make it as scum. Whether it's beneficial for the town is another question though.

Town has no reason to make themselves insanely scummy (somewhat scummy yes as a PR), so there's no town objective here.


WIFORM is basically multiple equally likely results, an example is:

I have two glasses of wine in front of me, one is poisoned, which one is it?



However, there's a very clear motive for scum here (MC is good as for scum, as is the PR tells they can generate by analyzing the claiming discussion), how does town benefit? Best case is town doesn't massclaim and knows enough to not drop PR tells in discussion, but we have less daylight and town is ended up focused on a townie.


Where's the town benefit? If you can find me an equally strong town benefit it's WIFORM, otherwise it's a scumslip and you're misusing the term.

I'm well aware of what WIFOM is, and yes I believe we can't interpret Emp's want for a MC as a scumtell because of it.

[cruelty]

AD what the hell are you talking about?

you seem to be misunderstanding wifom. it's like this;


he is obviously scum because town wouldn't push for such an illogical maneuver (d1 massclaim).

but then, he's also obviously (dumb) town because scum wouldn't push their own agenda so obviously.

but then, he's obviously scum because he knows that we as town would realise that scum wouldn't be so obvious, so we think he's town, therefore this is a good scum play.

but then, he's obviously town because we'd realise... you see where this is going?



there doesn't have to be equal motives (ie: there doesn't HAVE to be a good, logical reason that townemp wants a massclaim), there just has to be enough confusion about his motivation that we can't actually lynch based solely on what it -might- be.



regardless, this situation IS wifom and i can't really endorse empking's lynch based solely on his massclaim idea. i'm not going to unvote because i think that right now the only other viable lynch candidate is DP and i'm not willing to lynch for stupidity (i currently can't work out if he's dumb or scum).

[AdumbroDeus]

No.


Both of you (in fact the majority of the site) are misunderstanding the term.

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... ront_Of_Me


Head to head guessing game with no dominant strategy.


What I'm saying is there is a dominant strategy




Why?


Because his action objectively benefits one side, and at a certain point, scum can't act EXACTLY like town during day, their objective is to survive. So the dominant strategy when dealing with identifiable scummy actions identify them as such.


Town has no reason to perform such actions, so why would they?


TL;DR: You can say anything is WIFORM if you add enough factors to it, but the bottom line is scummy actions are scummy, and people who make scummy actions should be lynched.

[cruelty]

i feel like there's a bunch of people out there who haven't seen the princess bride and are misunderstanding the concept.


the point is, BOTH the glasses are poisoned.

[singersigner]

i feel like there's a bunch of people out there who haven't seen the princess bride and are misunderstanding the concept.


the point is, BOTH the glasses are poisoned.

WORD.

[AdumbroDeus]

i feel like there's a bunch of people out there who haven't seen the princess bride and are misunderstanding the concept.


the point is, BOTH the glasses are poisoned.

This absolutely convinces me that you don't understand WIFORM as a concept, the scene that it takes it's name from is absolutely NOT a WIFORM situation as explained by the wiki in the game theory section (https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... ront_Of_Me) though how the line of thought proceeds is shown by the scene quite well.

(Ironically, the Princess Bride scene from which WIFOM derives its name does not fit the game-theory definition of WIFOM: It's a simple 50/50 guessing game. It would only be WIFOM if there were an inherent disadvantage to poisoning the wine that happened to lay closer to oneself or vice-versa.) (Even more ironically, the poison turned out to be in both glasses.)

Furthermore, there's a nice discussion of WIFORM in the mafia discussion board (title misspelled): viewtopic.php?f=5&t=15579




Vi's post (Second in the thread) gives a great explanation of this concept, pay special attention to the section I bolded: viewtopic.php?p=2605039#p2605039

Vi: *case case case* And thus I conclude that petroleumjelly is not just scum, but OBVIOUS scum and eats babies for lunch.

Vote: p-jelly

(L-8)
petroleumjelly: That is -probably- the dumbest case I've ever read.

Vote: Vi

Vi: I take it since you're voting me, you think I'm scum.
p'jelly: Um, yeah.
Vi: But I KNOW you're a super player. As scum I wouldn't even try to push a case on you because of how easily you could refute it and turn it against me. Admit it, it's suicide. Therefore since (contrary to popular belief) I'm not stupid, I'm most probably not scum.

The last statement is WIFOM - guessing into my own motives for doing what I did. Whether I'm more likely to be Town or scum pushing this case is something that cannot be objectively proven, but based on what you know of me you can take a good guess.

What gets people upset is when you deliberately make WIFOM arguments like I did. Scumhunting is based on finding out whether someone's actions make more sense from a Town point of view or a scum point of view. When you

know

that your actions only make sense from one point of view, you can abuse that by, say, doing something you would ONLY do as Town as scum. And when you have that level of self-awareness, it gets really difficult to use your actions to determine your alignment.

Apologies to pj

When you're trying to outguess motives, you're engaging in WIFORM, you take actions as what they ARE, engaging in this internal "but what if I'm making you think that I think that you think that I think that you think that I think".






So now that I've dropped a shitload of sources and educated everyone on mafia theory can we get back to lynching EMP-scum?

[singersigner]

i feel like there's a bunch of people out there who haven't seen the princess bride and are misunderstanding the concept.


the point is, BOTH the glasses are poisoned.

This absolutely convinces me that you don't understand WIFORM as a concept, the scene that it takes it's name from is absolutely NOT a WIFORM situation as explained by the wiki in the game theory section (https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... ront_Of_Me) though how the line of thought proceeds is shown by the scene quite well.

(Ironically, the Princess Bride scene from which WIFOM derives its name does not fit the game-theory definition of WIFOM: It's a simple 50/50 guessing game. It would only be WIFOM if there were an inherent disadvantage to poisoning the wine that happened to lay closer to oneself or vice-versa.) (Even more ironically, the poison turned out to be in both glasses.)

Furthermore, there's a nice discussion of WIFORM in the mafia discussion board (title misspelled): viewtopic.php?f=5&t=15579




Vi's post (Second in the thread) gives a great explanation of this concept, pay special attention to the section I bolded: viewtopic.php?p=2605039#p2605039

Vi: *case case case* And thus I conclude that petroleumjelly is not just scum, but OBVIOUS scum and eats babies for lunch.

Vote: p-jelly

(L-8)
petroleumjelly: That is -probably- the dumbest case I've ever read.

Vote: Vi

Vi: I take it since you're voting me, you think I'm scum.
p'jelly: Um, yeah.
Vi: But I KNOW you're a super player. As scum I wouldn't even try to push a case on you because of how easily you could refute it and turn it against me. Admit it, it's suicide. Therefore since (contrary to popular belief) I'm not stupid, I'm most probably not scum.

The last statement is WIFOM - guessing into my own motives for doing what I did. Whether I'm more likely to be Town or scum pushing this case is something that cannot be objectively proven, but based on what you know of me you can take a good guess.

What gets people upset is when you deliberately make WIFOM arguments like I did. Scumhunting is based on finding out whether someone's actions make more sense from a Town point of view or a scum point of view. When you

know

that your actions only make sense from one point of view, you can abuse that by, say, doing something you would ONLY do as Town as scum. And when you have that level of self-awareness, it gets really difficult to use your actions to determine your alignment.

Apologies to pj

When you're trying to outguess motives, you're engaging in WIFORM, you take actions as what they ARE, engaging in this internal "but what if I'm making you think that I think that you think that I think that you think that I think".






So now that I've dropped a shitload of sources and educated everyone on mafia theory can we get back to lynching EMP-scum?

I think I would take you a lot more seriously if you didn't keep referring to it as "WIFO

R

M."

Also, yes, there's a difference between the movie and game-theory, but if you don't even allow yourself to relate the two, then we have a problem. What you just did was post a lot of fluff and completely distract everyone from your argument.

Why is it so important to you that we understand

your

definition of what WIFOM is? The differences are subtle, but you're being too stubborn to understand why we (yes we, as a collective), disagree with the one you're using. The fatal flaw in your defense, is saying "oh no! I'm not using WIFOM!" when in fact, the reason we're pointing it out, is because you're setting it up to be such. Whether you've actually engaged in it yet, or you're about to, we still don't want you to. So stop it.

[cruelty]

from the wiki: "WIFOM begins to exist at the point that an argument causes a circular line of thinking within the reader. "


and i meant, wifom as it's used on this site isn't actually accurate at all.


anyway, we can discuss this after the game. moving on.

[AdumbroDeus]

...

The problem with me letting this go is that you're letting scum slip away using fallicous logic by turning something that isn't conceptually wifom into wifom. If you wanna clear scum by misinterpreting proper logic as fallicious logic, do it in a game that I'm not in please.


Wifom is bad because it's a fallacy, my line of reasoning clearly isn't a fallacy, therefore, we should lynch the scum.

[Empking]

i feel like there's a bunch of people out there who haven't seen the princess bride and are misunderstanding the concept.


the point is, BOTH the glasses are poisoned.

WORD.

NO.

[DavidParker]

There's a scum benefit to a mass claim, but it's still WIFOM because a mass-claim was NEVER going to happen day 1. He knew that, we knew that, everyone knew that. Hence it is WIFOM. If there was a realistic chance of a mass claim occurring then maybe it wouldn't be wifom and it would be scummy but that was never going to happen.

Can we stop talking about WIFOM now????