Mini 1075 - Fishtown Mafia

[Nocmen]

I still ask of Emp to show an example where D1 mass claim is beneficial to the town.

Also, not liking DavidParker's sudden thoughts that Emp is so town, we need to go with him, etc. It seems to me like either buddying, or if Emp is town, promoting it to role fish.

Vote: DavidParker

[fallen angel]

Well I have a huge like for calling people town with no reason. Get used to it.

Or just vote me off.

Vote: AdumbroDeus

I think he had other motives behind suggesting a day 1 claim. He's obviously not dumb enough to think people would have agreed to a mass claim. And this game isn't full of inexperienced players so he wasn't trying to take advantage of anyone. Recklessness = Town in my eyes.

This bothers me. You provide no reason other than you think empking is town, and not wanting him in lylo is scummy to you. You're buddying with empking, declaring that he's town with no reason other than, "I have a huge like for calling people town with no reason." Your vote is baseless other than your belief that empking is innocent. Also, how is recklessness any more of a town tell than a scum tell? It's wifom. "Oh, the scum don't want to be lynched, so they won't act reckless, but the townies are less worried, so they can be reckless." "So wouldn't scum act reckless to appear to be town?"

Your entire argument is a relativist fallacy combined with buddying.
VOTE: DavidParker

How is recklessness a scumtell? By your logic, scum would give off towntells all the time, thus making them scumtells as well.

I'm not saying it is. What I'm saying is that DavidParker said it was a town tell, but that's complete wifom because scum could use it to appear town.

Your entire argument is a relativist fallacy combined with buddying.

Oh trust me, I'm not even going to argue or refute this, because it's true. But I'm buddying because I'm right (he is town) and don't mind using silly falacies if I have to.

This makes me even more sure of my vote.
1) You admit to buddying.
2) You either know that empking is town, meaning you're scum, or you've got such strong confirmation bias that it doesn't matter what he actually is.
3) You admit that you're case is not based on any fact that we can prove.
4) You are perfectly fine using fallacies. Fallacies

don't prove anything

. According to Wikipedia, a fallacy is "incorrect reasoning in argumentation resulting in a misconception." In layman's terms, a mistake. You're saying you're willing to use mistakes and misconceptions to back up your argument that empking is town.

In my eyes, you're either scum (and therefore know empking is town), or are tunnel-visioning his innocence. Either way, it's bad for the town.

[ConfidAnon]

Empking is probably town despite his horrible mass-claim idea.

I agree here. It seems very unlikely for scum to push so hard for power roles to be outed openly, seeing as a mass claim does make them have to stick to a claim day 1. Without knowing the setup, that's not an ideal situation for scum. Barring wifom, a scum would not make themselves the prime center of attention this early in the game in a theory discussion like this.

[AdumbroDeus]

@Fallen Angel

: Vote Emp, obvious scum before dealing with dumb or scum.

I'm happy with my vote where it is. Just because he's obvscum to you, doesn't mean I believe he is. He could very well be, but it's three pages into the game. That's far too early to pass judgement on who is definitely scum.

Unless he has one hell of a good motive for it, there's absolutely no reason for a generally strong player to make a mistake like this and defend it in such a fallacious way.

Your entire argument is a relativist fallacy combined with buddying.

Oh trust me, I'm not even going to argue or refute this, because it's true. But I'm buddying because I'm right (he is town) and don't mind using silly falacies if I have to.

...

Definately leaning dumb.

Empking is probably town despite his horrible mass-claim idea.

I agree here. It seems very unlikely for scum to push so hard for power roles to be outed openly, seeing as a mass claim does make them have to stick to a claim day 1. Without knowing the setup, that's not an ideal situation for scum. Barring wifom, a scum would not make themselves the prime center of attention this early in the game in a theory discussion like this.

So why you picking the one that pegs him as obvious town? There were other people who said mass-claiming is dumb, why pick this one that has other connotations?

[fallen angel]

@Fallen Angel

: Vote Emp, obvious scum before dealing with dumb or scum.

I'm happy with my vote where it is. Just because he's obvscum to you, doesn't mean I believe he is. He could very well be, but it's three pages into the game. That's far too early to pass judgement on who is definitely scum.

Unless he has one hell of a good motive for it, there's absolutely no reason for a generally strong player to make a mistake like this and defend it in such a fallacious way.

The problem I have with voting empking is shown in the below quote:

Empking is probably town despite his horrible mass-claim idea.

I agree here. It seems very unlikely for scum to push so hard for power roles to be outed openly, seeing as a mass claim does make them have to stick to a claim day 1. Without knowing the setup, that's not an ideal situation for scum. Barring wifom, a scum would not make themselves the prime center of attention this early in the game in a theory discussion like this.

I don't think there's enough evidence (without wifom) to back up the idea of empking being scum *or* town. He could very well be scum, but he also might be town pushing a less-than-popular idea. Hell, he could be a jester for all we know. However, DavidParker seems clearly scummy to me, and there's no real wifom in my case against him.

[AdumbroDeus]

@Fallen Angel

: Vote Emp, obvious scum before dealing with dumb or scum.

I'm happy with my vote where it is. Just because he's obvscum to you, doesn't mean I believe he is. He could very well be, but it's three pages into the game. That's far too early to pass judgement on who is definitely scum.

Unless he has one hell of a good motive for it, there's absolutely no reason for a generally strong player to make a mistake like this and defend it in such a fallacious way.

The problem I have with voting empking is shown in the below quote:

Empking is probably town despite his horrible mass-claim idea.

I agree here. It seems very unlikely for scum to push so hard for power roles to be outed openly, seeing as a mass claim does make them have to stick to a claim day 1. Without knowing the setup, that's not an ideal situation for scum. Barring wifom, a scum would not make themselves the prime center of attention this early in the game in a theory discussion like this.

I don't think there's enough evidence (without wifom) to back up the idea of empking being scum *or* town. He could very well be scum, but he also might be town pushing a less-than-popular idea. Hell, he could be a jester for all we know. However, DavidParker seems clearly scummy to me, and there's no real wifom in my case against him.

Which I could understand coming from a weak townie, but not a player with credentials, if he was pro-town he had no reason to propose it in the first place, and it's not unreasonable to think that he could force it through via sheer force of personality (which i have seen scum do to groups of weaker players on multiple occasions).


As far as a jester, we are limited to standard roles for normal games, so there will not be a jester.


Davis Parker just seems mad dumb, it's possible he's scum, but it seems more likely he just has no clue what good play is.

[fallen angel]

But the entire argument for or against empking's townliness is wifom. He could be scum, but why would scum push forward an idea that makes them seem anti-town? If he's town, why suggest it at all? But maybe he's scum, pushing the idea because he wants us to think that he's town pushing a scum idea because no scum would be dumb enough to push an anti-town idea. It gets us nowhere.

[AdumbroDeus]

Again, because all you need to do is look at the fact that strong players can push through ideas were are fundamentally destructive to town. I can provide a wonderful example from my days as a noobish mafia player from another site in the form, of chrono trigger mafia (http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=274820), check out the endgame interaction between the confirmed indies and town.


There, you have a concrete reason why it would advantage him to do it as scum and no concrete reason to do it as town, unless he's got an esoteric role (normal game guidelines...). If he has some other reason, he'd best explain it, fast.

[Lrdwhyt]

I'm not saying it is. What I'm saying is that DavidParker said it was a town tell, but that's complete wifom because scum could use it to appear town.

I don't think this would be called WIFOM. It's perfectly normal for someone to point out that someone else has a towntell.

But the entire argument for or against empking's townliness is wifom. He could be scum, but why would scum push forward an idea that makes them seem anti-town? If he's town, why suggest it at all? But maybe he's scum, pushing the idea because he wants us to think that he's town pushing a scum idea because no scum would be dumb enough to push an anti-town idea. It gets us nowhere.

You really like WIFOM, don't you? But, no, it isn't WIFOM. Empking did something that could be ascribed to being scum (trying to influence 'weak' players), but is a questionable move as an innocent. The possibility that he's scum trying to seem innocent by doing something that seems like a scum move exists, but saying his move could be scum-motivated isn't WIFOM.

[fallen angel]

Again, because all you need to do is look at the fact that strong players can push through ideas were are fundamentally destructive to town. I can provide a wonderful example from my days as a noobish mafia player from another site in the form, of chrono trigger mafia (http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=274820), check out the endgame interaction between the confirmed indies and town.


There, you have a concrete reason why it would advantage him to do it as scum and no concrete reason to do it as town, unless he's got an esoteric role (normal game guidelines...). If he has some other reason, he'd best explain it, fast.

So you're completely ruling out the fact that he could be misguided town? Time on the site or experience don't prevent people from having good intentions but not going about the proper way.

I'm not saying it is. What I'm saying is that DavidParker said it was a town tell, but that's complete wifom because scum could use it to appear town.

I don't think this would be called WIFOM. It's perfectly normal for someone to point out that someone else has a towntell.

But the entire argument for or against empking's townliness is wifom. He could be scum, but why would scum push forward an idea that makes them seem anti-town? If he's town, why suggest it at all? But maybe he's scum, pushing the idea because he wants us to think that he's town pushing a scum idea because no scum would be dumb enough to push an anti-town idea. It gets us nowhere.

You really like WIFOM, don't you? But, no, it isn't WIFOM. Empking did something that could be ascribed to being scum (trying to influence 'weak' players), but is a questionable move as an innocent. The possibility that he's scum trying to seem innocent by doing something that seems like a scum move exists, but saying his move could be scum-motivated isn't WIFOM.

No, I actually hate wifom. Empking wasn't trying to convince "weak" players, he was trying to convince the whole town. Yeah, it's questionable for an innocent player to do that, but that doesn't outright prove that he's scum, either.

[AdumbroDeus]

[So you're completely ruling out the fact that he could be misguided town? Time on the site or experience don't prevent people from having good intentions but not going about the proper way.

Look, he has a scummy for best town performance, there's no way I can believe he'd just be misguided about something as simple as massclaiming d1 on a normal. Being on for a while doesn't mean anything, that's correct, but when you win a scummy, that establishes that you have a high level of competence, at least at the side that you played.

So, misguided town is ridiculously unlikely, no, he did something mad scummy, he needs to explain himself, fast.

No, I actually hate wifom. Empking wasn't trying to convince "weak" players, he was trying to convince the whole town. Yeah, it's questionable for an innocent player to do that, but that doesn't outright prove that he's scum, either.

You're missing the point, there's nobody beyond him that seems to be no notable players in this game, so the entire town is the "weaker players" in this case.

[AdumbroDeus]

EBWOP: meant to say "beyond him, there doesn't seem to be any notable players in this game".

[Lrdwhyt]

Again, because all you need to do is look at the fact that strong players can push through ideas were are fundamentally destructive to town. I can provide a wonderful example from my days as a noobish mafia player from another site in the form, of chrono trigger mafia (http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=274820), check out the endgame interaction between the confirmed indies and town.


There, you have a concrete reason why it would advantage him to do it as scum and no concrete reason to do it as town, unless he's got an esoteric role (normal game guidelines...). If he has some other reason, he'd best explain it, fast.

Why fast? I wouldn't mind an explanation as well, but this makes it sound like you're setting him up for a quick lynch if he fails to respond the moment he logs on.

[AdumbroDeus]

"he needs to explain himself, fast" means the topic is urgent. I had no other connotations beyond that, but if you wanna draw something implied out of it, take "he needs to explain it in his next post".

[fallen angel]

[So you're completely ruling out the fact that he could be misguided town? Time on the site or experience don't prevent people from having good intentions but not going about the proper way.

Look, he has a scummy for best town performance, there's no way I can believe he'd just be misguided about something as simple as massclaiming d1 on a normal. Being on for a while doesn't mean anything, that's correct, but when you win a scummy, that establishes that you have a high level of competence, at least at the side that you played.

So, misguided town is ridiculously unlikely, no, he did something mad scummy, he needs to explain himself, fast.

No, I actually hate wifom. Empking wasn't trying to convince "weak" players, he was trying to convince the whole town. Yeah, it's questionable for an innocent player to do that, but that doesn't outright prove that he's scum, either.

You're missing the point, there's nobody beyond him that seems to be no notable players in this game, so the entire town is the "weaker players" in this case.

I'd like to see what game he got the scummy for, before I agree with you. I doubt that empking changes too much from game to game, or most players for that matter, and his performance in that game could be similar to here.

Also, the second quote was from me as well.
And I'm not missing the point. Just because he's the only one with a scummy doesn't mean anyone else here is necessarily a bad player, it just means that they haven't been on as long, or haven't had as notable a performance. Most scummers don't have awards. I think you're putting a little too much stock into the fact that empking does.

[AdumbroDeus]

[So you're completely ruling out the fact that he could be misguided town? Time on the site or experience don't prevent people from having good intentions but not going about the proper way.

Look, he has a scummy for best town performance, there's no way I can believe he'd just be misguided about something as simple as massclaiming d1 on a normal. Being on for a while doesn't mean anything, that's correct, but when you win a scummy, that establishes that you have a high level of competence, at least at the side that you played.

So, misguided town is ridiculously unlikely, no, he did something mad scummy, he needs to explain himself, fast.

No, I actually hate wifom. Empking wasn't trying to convince "weak" players, he was trying to convince the whole town. Yeah, it's questionable for an innocent player to do that, but that doesn't outright prove that he's scum, either.

You're missing the point, there's nobody beyond him that seems to be no notable players in this game, so the entire town is the "weaker players" in this case.

I'd like to see what game he got the scummy for, before I agree with you. I doubt that empking changes too much from game to game, or most players for that matter, and his performance in that game could be similar to here.

Also, the second quote was from me as well.
And I'm not missing the point. Just because he's the only one with a scummy doesn't mean anyone else here is necessarily a bad player, it just means that they haven't been on as long, or haven't had as notable a performance. Most scummers don't have awards. I think you're putting a little too much stock into the fact that empking does.

srry about that, quote tag mess-up.


Nobody's gonna earn a town performance scummy for convincing town to mass-claim d1 in a normal game, real talk. It's fundamentally opposing your wincon.


Do you think you're a top player?

Does anyone here feel they're a top player?

I'm not saying that everyone is necessarily bad (anymore, I apologize for my overly harsh generalization earlier) but being weaker somebody who won a scummy is the status quo unless you're in that same class of players. Could a top player manipulate solid to average players into doing bad things? Well, yea, happens all the times in all sorts of games. So most likely explanation is he tried it, and there doesn't seem to be any other reasonable explanation regardless of alignment.


So, if you have any reasonable arguments as to other explanations, I'd be happy to hear them, but arguing the rest

@emp:

ohairthere, care to respond?

@xenophon and cruelty:

Sup dawgs, wanna hear more from you two, who's scum?

[AdumbroDeus]

EBWOP: meant to say, "but arguing the rest of town's level of competency is little more then a distraction and a waste of time unless it helps us get a read, so let's move off that tangent".

[fallen angel]

Still think you're putting too much credit to the scummy and empking being more experienced. Regardless of town or scum, don't you think *any* experienced player would know better than to continue pushing an unpopular idea after his lynch had been proposed because of it?

[Fishythefish]

Votecount 3

DavidParker (3) –singersigner, fallen angel, Nocmen
Empking (2) - havingfitz, AdumbroDeus
havingfitz (1) - Empking
AdumbroDeus (1) - DavidParker
Not voting (4) – ConfidAnon, xenophon, cruelty, Lrdwhyt

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch

[cruelty]

ok.

i'm struggling to see the logic behind a day one, page (3, 4 etc) massclaim. AD summed my feelings up pretty well;

Look, he has a scummy for best town performance, there's no way I can believe he'd just be misguided about something as simple as massclaiming d1 on a normal. Being on for a while doesn't mean anything, that's correct, but when you win a scummy, that establishes that you have a high level of competence, at least at the side that you played.

So, misguided town is ridiculously unlikely, no, he did something mad scummy, he needs to explain himself, fast.

i'm gonna

vote empking

i am concerned at the massive stumbling block this is creating for town. i mean, if emp is scum then fine, but i believe that he

is

a competent player (i don't think a scummy = super saiyan but there is a certain level of ability implied) which (as has been said) creates a gordion knot of wifom which we need to at least attempt to unravel before we slice and dice. i find it hard to believe that a player proven to be competent would suggest such a flawed plan and then wage a war of defiance, which implies scum (or ulterior motive). and i find it hard to believe that scum... whatever.


i think davidparker's absolute insistence that empking is town is worrying, but the flipside here is that he's proven to be incompetent. so such a statement coming from him is less scummy and more classic dave. he's a sideshow; we need to sit through the main event here, and we need to work out how to deal with it.

I agree here. It seems very unlikely for scum to push so hard for power roles to be outed openly, seeing as a mass claim does make them have to stick to a claim day 1. Without knowing the setup, that's not an ideal situation for scum. Barring wifom, a scum would not make themselves the prime center of attention this early in the game in a theory discussion like this.

this is slightly more interesting than david's assertion. this is agreeing with (but notably not initiating) the idea that emp is town, and putting forward a logical (albeit basically meaningless with the admission of the possibility of wifom) basis for this belief. especially in light of his previous post, which included this;

However, I see the arguments both pro- and anti-MC

if you can see the arguments against mass-claim, why do you agree with a fundamentally baseless townread? really, you should be null on empking at this point if you can see the flaws in his argument.

[Nocmen]

I think the main concern I have with Emp's idea is what was previously mentioned - I don't think someone like him would propose it like the way he did. I also don't think we should take that as any kind of tell towards Emp, because anything aobut him making it so obvious that hes town/scum because of that idea can be taken down to WIFOM.

@cruelty - why do you think davidparker is "incompetant"?

[DavidParker]

@Fallen Angel

: Vote Emp, obvious scum before dealing with dumb or scum.

I'm happy with my vote where it is. Just because he's obvscum to you, doesn't mean I believe he is. He could very well be, but it's three pages into the game. That's far too early to pass judgement on who is definitely scum.

Unless he has one hell of a good motive for it, there's absolutely no reason for a generally strong player to make a mistake like this and defend it in such a fallacious way.

The problem I have with voting empking is shown in the below quote:

Empking is probably town despite his horrible mass-claim idea.

I agree here. It seems very unlikely for scum to push so hard for power roles to be outed openly, seeing as a mass claim does make them have to stick to a claim day 1. Without knowing the setup, that's not an ideal situation for scum. Barring wifom, a scum would not make themselves the prime center of attention this early in the game in a theory discussion like this.

I don't think there's enough evidence (without wifom) to back up the idea of empking being scum *or* town. He could very well be scum, but he also might be town pushing a less-than-popular idea. Hell, he could be a jester for all we know. However, DavidParker seems clearly scummy to me, and there's no real wifom in my case against him.

Jester speculation gets town nowhere....and I have a policy...

Vote: fallen angel

[fallen angel]

@Fallen Angel

: Vote Emp, obvious scum before dealing with dumb or scum.

I'm happy with my vote where it is. Just because he's obvscum to you, doesn't mean I believe he is. He could very well be, but it's three pages into the game. That's far too early to pass judgement on who is definitely scum.

Unless he has one hell of a good motive for it, there's absolutely no reason for a generally strong player to make a mistake like this and defend it in such a fallacious way.

The problem I have with voting empking is shown in the below quote:

Empking is probably town despite his horrible mass-claim idea.

I agree here. It seems very unlikely for scum to push so hard for power roles to be outed openly, seeing as a mass claim does make them have to stick to a claim day 1. Without knowing the setup, that's not an ideal situation for scum. Barring wifom, a scum would not make themselves the prime center of attention this early in the game in a theory discussion like this.

I don't think there's enough evidence (without wifom) to back up the idea of empking being scum *or* town. He could very well be scum, but he also might be town pushing a less-than-popular idea. Hell, he could be a jester for all we know. However, DavidParker seems clearly scummy to me, and there's no real wifom in my case against him.

Jester speculation gets town nowhere....and I have a policy...

Vote: fallen angel

I wasn't seriously saying he could be a jester, it was simply to get the point across that we don't know what his role is. About your policy, you mean your policy of calling random people town? Neither of those gives you any reason to vote me.

[Nocmen]

If your policy is to lynch anyone who mentions a Jester, especially in a Mini Normal, where I don't see a place for them to ever be, that just seems like you're making up excuses to place votes on people. I feel more certain about my vote on you now.

[Empking]

AD: We know that MC will help. (the unrefutable logic I've given that's only been answered with "You're questions" or idiotic statements) So its only logical that I'd want a massclaim.

Can everyone agree that MC will:
Not have an impact on whether we have confirmed town in lylo.
Force scum into a position they'd rather not be in.
Give town greater information and allow them to better hunt for scum.

(Also since we know AD and HF are the scum we can get them to claim first.)

If I wasn't convinced before that you aren't seriously arguing for a mass claim, I sure am now. How, in any way, was your logic irrefutable? Your asking for a mass claim was either a joke and you're not even trying, or you really want a mass claim, and you're hoping that no one will actually read your arguments.

1. As someone else said, no. Outing the roles means power roles die, thus decreasing the chances of having confirmed town in LYLO.
2. Depends on whether they're early in the mass claim or not.
3. Yes.

And if you do have an ulterior motive, do explain now. It seems obvious that no one is supporting a mass claim, so you may as well explain why.

Lrd:The last two points are in my favour (though I disagree that it requiresx thenm to be early in order to be put into a bad position) and we will not have confirmed town period. That's it.

I'm willing to drop suggesting MC but any argument put against me HAS to take into account the fundamental fact that MC is the best move for the town to make otherwise your delibrately helping scum.