Mini 1057: Unsubsidized Mafia (Game Over!)

[ThAdmiral]

ThAdmiral, I should say the same thing about my read on you. You've been twisting my arguments around a little more than is comfortable, and I don't like when people do that. Means they're not thinking things through.

And scum are usually the ones that don't think things through.

?
I don't see why scum would be less likely to think things through than town. Can you explain that to me.

Why would you rather put the hammer on jimfinn, though? I mean, he at least has actually stuck his neck out and voted for people, for reasons other than that they are after him.

Far_Cry posts long, wishy-washy analyses that mirror what other people have been saying, and really only makes a strong stand against jimfinn, who is such an easy lynch to sell. It just seems to me like he is lying low after stumbling several times yesterday,

and I feel like a town player would dust himself off and at least try to genuinely participate.

Thank you for this excellent summary of why FC's D2 play is scummy.

Ok.
So can you now explain the links between singer and farcry that you've spoken so much about? Or will you finally admit that these "links" were fabricated by you as a reason to vote farcry because you are in fact scum.

(also @DemonHybrid: do you still say jimfinn isn't parroting other people's arguments?)

[DemonHybrid]

I have a midterm to take today, I'll make a post later today after I'm finished and answer whatever.

[saporovirus]

@redtail: My only other possible suspicion is demonhybrid, because he likes to vote-jump a lot, but I don't think scum would be nearly as tenacious in voting for Far_Cry and defending jimfinn. I will get back to this in a bit. I have had a crazy night and morning.

[jimfinn]

Oh, finally activity picks up. I see some things flying around, and some votes on me. I don't have time to post today, but I will do analysis and post tomorrow.

If that's not a prod-dodge, I don't know what is.

[Nexus]

Something you'd know a lot about, non?

[redtail896]

Oh, finally activity picks up. I see some things flying around, and some votes on me. I don't have time to post today, but I will do analysis and post tomorrow.

If that's not a prod-dodge, I don't know what is.

With all due respect, you seem to be the king of prod dodging.

Essentially, I don't know who you're suspicious of jimfinn. You clearly don't like Far Cry, but the case you presented is simply bolding part of somebody else's post. You haven't really explained the FC-singer connection, and you haven't really examined anybody else. Beyond FC, who are you suspicious of?

@redtail: My only other possible suspicion is demonhybrid, because he likes to vote-jump a lot, but I don't think scum would be nearly as tenacious in voting for Far_Cry and defending jimfinn. I will get back to this in a bit. I have had a crazy night and morning.

DH really hit my radar after his jump on that awful D1 Thor bandwagon. I believe his defense of jimfinn however (or rather, I believe that he believes it).

[Thor665]

I'm close to changing my read on DH yet again if he can't produce this super obvious FCscum case he's been harping on. Must be the longest midterm test ever.

[saporovirus]

Maybe he went and got drunk after it. In any case, I suppose FC has been sticking his neck out a lot more than scum would, and has actually been trying to play. Jeez...

unvote

[jimfinn]

One of the strongest reasons for me to support a Far_Cry lynch right is that he was relatively active early in the game, trying to push activity forward, but when the pressure starts to come onto him for the other things I have already mentioned, he starts to uberlurk so that he doesn't have to answer the accusations. Town would try to make a reasonable reply.

[Nexus]

Yet you haven't really managed to come up with a decent reply to any of the accusations levelled at you?

[jimfinn]

the only case against me is not posting enough, right? that's kinda impossible to make a response to, but FC, we have concrete things we want him to respond to: prolonging RVS, a few suspicious comments, being coached by singer, etc.

[Thor665]

@jimfinn - *strategically* not posting. The accusation is active lurking, not lurking.

Also, if you're town and you feel FC has been dodging stuff, why haven't you been pressuring him every day?

[DemonHybrid]

I'm going to make this short and to the point.

I feel singer tries to distance herself in this post: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 3#p2533193

...then completely changes a tune, since no suspicion is on Far_Cry: "Oh, he seems town." http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p2558738

Far Cry continually finds scummy play from singer, but conveniently votes her to put her L-1.

On Nexus. Sounds like he's starting to become suspicious:

Oh really? That sounds likes you are pretty protective of him. Noob or not, good playstyle or not, there is no execuse for not defending yourself in the face of accusations. This makes me suspicious of you.

But this post has a hint of coaching: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p2533032

A hint of coaching and buddying: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p2533235

Seems like more coaching. On singer's anti-town list attitude:

Not getting you here. This doesn't seem like a great reason for not doing a town list. You wouldn't post "most-townie to least townie." You would just put down your thoughts on every player so far (at least thats my definition of town list.)

THEN here comes the vote post out of nowhere. If she has contradicted herself, why didn't you point it out earlier?

I don't like to piggyback or buddy at this point, but this case against singer seems reasonable. You indeed have been quite unclear of your intentions and have contradicted yourself. With the deadline closing in, I will put you at L-1 and VOTE: singersigner

I think this is textbook bussing, struck me as weird.

I'm not going to be posting fancy buzzwords or try to blow the case up more than it is. Cutting to the chase: Far_Cry dicked around with his singer suspicion, and then voted her last second. Mentioned FC once and went from having a shady view on him to "Oh yeah, he's totally town".

[DemonHybrid]

*Singer mentioned FC once and went from having a shady view on him to "Oh yeah..."

[DemonHybrid]

Anyway, it's a specific LACK of interaction, and still a L-2 vote from FC that makes me suspicious of the interactions.

[jimfinn]

I've probably been posting twice as often as FC on D2, and any of my posts that were not replies to things people have said to me have been trying to convince others to vote FC and increase the pressure. votes=pressure, and my vote is already on him.

[DemonHybrid]

Sorry, I missed a post in my ISO. I'm half asleep right now.

I feel like she tried to distance herself in: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 9#p2532839 this post and http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 3#p2533193 this one.

[Far_Cry]

Of course not.

Assuming you know that I already claimed VT, is this an attempt to associate me with him?

You could also be a cop trying not to get NKed.

I'm just pretty sure on my read.

Also,

Unvote, Vote: Nexus

, because either/or is fine, Nexus is closer, the day is nearly over, and Far_Cry is obviously not going to be today's lynch.

Why am I not in danger of getting lynched? I really don't like this vote. It seems like you're riding with what's popular. If you really believed in your case, you would have kept your vote on me.

I was confused as to what you meant, actually, but whatever.

C

ool that you quickly jump wagons, though.

O

f course, it doesn't really matter at this early stage.

P

erhaps I'll wait for the others before doing anything else.

For what use I've been. I fucked up and missed the night phase. So no, I have nothing else to back up my claims. I was hoping I'd avoid getting to L-1 and the lurker would be lynched so as I could do something N2, but since noone believed me, I have no choice.

That was creative way to claim. But I must admit, it seems sheepish to me. In fact, when reading this post, I couldn't even tell you claimed cop.

@ Thor: I suppose I'm putting too much faith in patterns, but jimfinn ALWAYS get lynched early for lackluster, lurky, fluffy play, and he's usually town. I jumped on the far_cry wagon because I felt like I had to switch to someone, and it will only put him at L2. I am suspicious of how he's played throughout the game; his contributions seem like too little, too late, and they've only come after pressure has mounted against him.

I would like to see proof of this. Your read on me seems outwardly general.

Why would you rather put the hammer on jimfinn, though? I mean, he at least has actually stuck his neck out and voted for people, for reasons other than that they are after him. Far_Cry posts long, wishy-washy analyses that mirror what other people have been saying, and really only makes a strong stand against jimfinn, who is such an easy lynch to sell. It just seems to me like he is lying low after stumbling several times yesterday, and I feel like a town player would dust himself off and at least try to genuinely participate.

Wishy-washy? My analysis does not go along with what others are saying. They are very much my own independent analysis. And what's wrong with having them long?

I'm starting not to like how you are playing now. You becoming lazy, and posting very general accusations against me. It seems to me that YOU are going with what others are saying.

Well, FC has had worse play if he really doesn't want to get lynched, because he's not been very pro-town at all. But who started the FC wagon? I will take a bit of a look at D1 and get back to you.

Once again, general statement, easy to make.

I want to lynch jimfinn because I tend to suspect FC was a counter wagon to singersinger and I believe jimfinn's lurking has been strategic in nature which I don't think can be believed of FC's lurking.

FC hasn't been lurking. He's just been offering wishy-washy statements. I also think the FC counterwagon is a valid theory only if you're very sure that jimfinn is scum, because he started it and some pro-town players jumped on it due to it's merits.

I am pretty undecided on jimmy-boy.

Which actually directly contradicts something I posted earlier today.

Why aren't you hammering him, Thor?

I like your honesty. +town points, and...well, the miller claim. I can see where you're coming with on that.

Consider yourself most town IMO, jim 2nd.

Why are you giving him town points? He's been honest on that one thing. How does that make him soooo town in your eyes?

Why would you rather put the hammer on jimfinn, though? I mean, he at least has actually stuck his neck out and voted for people, for reasons other than that they are after him.

Far_Cry posts long, wishy-washy analyses that mirror what other people have been saying, and really only makes a strong stand against jimfinn, who is such an easy lynch to sell. It just seems to me like he is lying low after stumbling several times yesterday,

and I feel like a town player would dust himself off and at least try to genuinely participate.

Thank you for this excellent summary of why FC's D2 play is scummy.

Oh here we go. Way to be very lazy jimfinn.

Far Cry: In the space of two posts, he says "Yay, well done for helping us to move towards getting out of RVS" and then he says "Wait, no, don't go out of RVS!" This, to me, is confusing, and contradictory. Admits he is wrong, and that he should contribute mmore. Dunno what to make of that; I think it's just being conciliatory so as not to ruffle any feathers.

Doesn't seem to want to take a stance until there was more talking. Really defensive re: Thor. A lot of complaints about activity on Day 1.

Day 2: He agrees with someone elses work. Riding the waves wooo. Got really angry at saporovirus for pointing it out too. I find that quite suspicious, really quite defensive (ISO #40) He posts a good town list, though, although a lot of it is patting others on the back. Trying to win points off of them?

Asking questions (ISO #53), not a play I've seen mid-game, it's usually done RVS. Might just be because I'm fairly new.

Needs to come back, he's disappeared after he asked DH a question. Although, DH's response was pretty poor. "I already explained it, I'm not going to reiterate it."

DH is actually quite fixated by Far_Cry.

Far_Cry is a bit scummy, yes, but I'd prefer to lynch jimfinn out of the two. At least FC is more active.

So, I'm probably going to go back to jimfinn.

Why did you go out and only post a very short ISO of me, only to then come out and say that I'm not the scummiest player?

Anyways, Me agreeing with someone else's work does not mean I'm riding the waves. I went out and did my own independent analysis and did my own independent work, so I don't see how this could be used against me.

Asking questions is perfectly reasonable at any point in the game, IMO.

Oh, finally activity picks up. I see some things flying around, and some votes on me. I don't have time to post today, but I will do analysis and post tomorrow.

If that's not a prod-dodge, I don't know what is.

I'd have to go out and say you've been doing a lot of prod-dodging yourself. But yes, my post was a prod-dodge. Work is work, and I just didn't have time to post. BTW, what did you think that post was?

One of the strongest reasons for me to support a Far_Cry lynch right is that he was relatively active early in the game, trying to push activity forward, but when the pressure starts to come onto him for the other things I have already mentioned, he starts to uberlurk so that he doesn't have to answer the accusations. Town would try to make a reasonable reply.

Hey what? I've not ever uberlurked. It's only now I haven't made a meaningful post in 3-4 days, because, as I've said above, work got in the way.

I've probably been posting twice as often as FC on D2, and any of my posts that were not replies to things people have said to me have been trying to convince others to vote FC and increase the pressure. votes=pressure, and my vote is already on him.

Really? You've made 13 posts D2 comapred to 21 (make this 22) made in D2. What the fuck are you talking about?

Anyways, my organized thoughts are coming up.

[Far_Cry]

A fatal flaw I believe many of you are making is trying to link me to singer, rather than trying to prove how my play has been scummy.

Anyways, concerning my interaction with singer, what I see is that people who are attacking me are trying to link me to singer by showing HER interactions with me, not MY interactions with her. Seeing how much trouble she was in, what it seems to me she was trying to do is buddy with me (just check out her final post, ISO 28.), so she could at least create confusion D2 (which is happening now.)

Concerning DH's (very brief) analysis of singer and I, you state that I found her scummy all throughout the day, then put her at L-1. What's the problem? Are you accusing me of trying to bus her? All I'm seeing is that you're trying really hard to prove I'm scum, and trying really hard to link me to singer by giving some BS reasons that I believe in no way prove that there is a connection between singer and I.

[Chevre]

Vote Count 12

(3) jimfinn (ThAdmiral, Far_Cry, redtail896)
(2) Far_Cry (jimfinn, DemonHybrid)

(4) Not Voting (nhammen, Thor665, Nexus, saporovirus)

With

9

players alive, it takes

5

votes to lynch!
Deadline is

October 29th

.
Replacing nhammen.

[saporovirus]

Far_Cry, if you really do want to help town, how about you make a concrete case against jimfinn rather than pointing multiple suspicions at DH, nexus, and me, and then going on to defend your play. You are voting for him after all.

Wishy-washy is making statements such as "this seems very sheepish to me" and "you've taken a fairly neutral stance thus far;" those statements aren't meaningful in and of themselves. And yah, I know I'm pretty guilty of the same thing myself- being too general that is. I can forgive you that, but I'd also like to point out that a vague statement isn't any less vague just because you quote the specific post you are making a vague statement about. Furthermore, I'd probably trust you more if you stuck to your guns and explained why you thought jimfinn was scum rather than finding something nebulous to pick apart in every post from every player.

[Far_Cry]

Far_Cry, if you really do want to help town, how about you make a concrete case against jimfinn rather than pointing multiple suspicions at DH, nexus, and me, and then going on to defend your play. You are voting for him after all.

I'm scrutinizing what you, DH, and Nexus have posted. Those posts have flaws, and need to be pointed out. I'm not pointing suspicions on you guys; I'm just looking at your posts. One can't have a single-minded approach in the game of mafia; I can't have a single-minded focus on jimfinn, because then I wouldn't notice things that should warrant my attention. I'm just looking at the game with an open mind, not just tunneling the people that I find suspicious (which is what jimfinn has been doing.)

I believe I have done a summary on jimfinn before, but I will do it again:

Jimfinn started out D1 realtively normally. He then went on to attack me for my bad play which is quite reasonable. D1 wound down, and we lynched singer, who was scum. D2, jimfinn posts saying simply that he was suspicious of me earlier, and "(singer's) flip only strengthen's that opinion. He then went on to say "Oh, I'm not trying to speedlynch." He disappears for a little, then says that singer and I seem to be "directing at each other." He then disappears again, come back, and claims VT under pressure. He also says that there is reasonable evidence against me, in response to redtail saying that he didn't understand where votes against me were coming from.

And when we thought his play couldn't get worse, it did.

He ignores redtail's request to explain why I'm scummy, and avoids Thor's questions, even when asked twice. He disappears for a little again, then comes back to commend sapo for his amazing analysis of me (note that he has managed to completely avoid redtail and Thor.)

Finally, he goes on to make two of the worst posts in the game (and I know of addressed them before, but I would like to beat it home because they are so bad):

One of the strongest reasons for me to support a Far_Cry lynch right is that he was relatively active early in the game, trying to push activity forward, but when the pressure starts to come onto him for the other things I have already mentioned, he starts to uberlurk so that he doesn't have to answer the accusations. Town would try to make a reasonable reply.

Are you kidding me? This is absolutely untrue, and you don't even have any evidence to back yourself up. Not only that, this is exactly what YOU have been doing. What's funny to me is that your only posts D2 were all to attack me. Then, you disappear when questions and accusations are directed against you. You simply shrug them off and "forget" about them. YOU are the one who has been uberlurking.

I've probably been posting twice as often as FC on D2, and any of my posts that were not replies to things people have said to me have been trying to convince others to vote FC and increase the pressure. votes=pressure, and my vote is already on him.

This is an outright horrible statement. Not only have I posted more than you have D2, but my posts actually have some sense to them, unlike yours. You have not replied to questions directed at you, and your attempt to "convince" town to vote me were all coming off of other people's analysis and general assumptions.

I would really like to ask everybody why jimfinn is not a good lynch.

Wishy-washy is making statements such as "this seems very sheepish to me" and "you've taken a fairly neutral stance thus far;" those statements aren't meaningful in and of themselves. And yah, I know I'm pretty guilty of the same thing myself- being too general that is. I can forgive you that, but I'd also like to point out that a vague statement isn't any less vague just because you quote the specific post you are making a vague statement about. Furthermore, I'd probably trust you more if you stuck to your guns and explained why you thought jimfinn was scum rather than finding something nebulous to pick apart in every post from every player.

How are those above statements wishy-washy and vague? Nexus's post was indeed an odd one, and I said it was such. And the second statement was a definite opinion; again, I'm not seeing the problem. What do you expect me to do?

[Far_Cry]

Bump. Where is everybody?

[Thor665]

Apologies, allowed a different game to distract me.

I actually pretty much agree with Far_Cry as regards DH's case. The buddying/coaching "tells" are pretty laughable. I see some minor connections, but nothing that screams "brilliance" and nothing that seems more/less connected then jimfinn, so I don't get why he thinks it's stronger.

Vote: jimfinn

[ThAdmiral]

I think I've said everything I wanted to say today. Could someone hammer pls?