Mini 1064 - Charlie's Town (Game Over!)

[Nachomamma8]

/confirm

[Nachomamma8]

Wow. Shotty, that post was full of crap. There is a lot of evidence suggesting that you are scum right now:

The reason for originally voting you was because you showed a strange amount of interest in my vote for q21. It was the RVS, so why did you have to ask me if I had reasons for my vote? What kind of answer were you expecting? ("He's got the letter q in his name, that's why!!!") Did you think my vote was serious at the time?

You think my vote for q21 was to draw votes away from RichardGHP. This logic is soooo incredibly irrational. First of all, you seem to think my vote was useless because it had no reasons accompanied to it, yet you are also blaming me for drawing votes away from RichardGHP. Secondly, why in the world would I be interested in taking votes away from somebody in the RVS?!?

Also, your suspicion of me and RichardGHP seems wierd. You have brought up several points against me (bad points), you haven't shown extreme suspicion of anybody else, and I currently only have one vote (I think), so why not vote for me? Is it because you are afraid to? I don't believe you actually feel that me and RichardGHP are scumbuddies, because that should involve having quite a bit of certainty that I am scum, yet you are voting RichardGHP instead. If you suspect RichardGHP on the basis of me being scum, then you should be voting me, but if you suspect me on the basis of RichardGHP being scum, then you actually need evidence explaining why RichardGHP is scum, because you haven't given any points (and you seem to be against players keeping their points to themselves). And if you

are

suspecting me on the basis that RichardGHP being scum, then you failed to mention when your vote became serious (looks like

you

are also withholding information). Saying you suspect us both based on me supposedly trying to "draw votes away" also makes no sense: I gave no reason for my vote. You seriously think a REASONLESS VOTE was designed to draw votes away from another player from and RVS BANDWAGON?!?

The purpose of the reasonless vote and giving reasons later was because I wanted to see how people reacted and what sort of actions they took in response before they knew the reasons. For example, I am thinking FakeGod is scum based on his response to my vote for Shotty.

Vote: masfloohinev

[Nachomamma8]

that makes it a lot of votes btw

[Nachomamma8]

Now, normally I don't bother to read walls of text in the first 5 pages of a game (61, 63), since they're normally just filled with overthought, terrible reason that only hit scum by virtue of sheer luck, but things stood out to me in these walls, so I read them through.

I found it interesting that Shotty was willing to attack mas's reasonless vote, which he said was "inexcusable even in the RVS", but completely ignore FakeGod's reasonless vote, which was on a much bigger wagon at the time. His reaction to SpyreX is also scummy in its own right; he ignores the question at the end of post #64, instead criticizing SpyreX's playstyle a bit more and stating that he was making points on his top scum reads, as if he was trying to imply that SpyreX wasn't (ironically enough, he hadn't even mentioned Richard up to this point).

So,

Unvote, Vote: Shotty to the Body

.

As to responding to Richard, there's not much to respond to except to say that I'm flattered you think I have a protown meta <3. And I'll point out that the "third on the wagon scum" tell should be weaker on someone you think is town as opposed to someone you know is town...

[Nachomamma8]

Mas: First of all, why do you have to give reads/votes in every post? Doesn't it make sense to also ask questions in your posts, so you might develop better reads and thus make more accurate votes...?

Second of all, you're putting reasons to my vote when there's none to find. I quoted a post of yours, then voted you. I didn't actually state any reasons whatsoever for voting you.

{Shotty
FakeGod
jmurph}

[Cas
mas
Richard]

[Nachomamma8]

It's arrogant to call someone inexperienced when they have a year more of experience than you...

Firstly, I'm fine with the way I've been playing, thanks.

I'm referring to your suspicion of Casus Belli.

Secondly, why did you vote for me then?

Because that was an overly long post for page 4, and I figured it was chock-full of reaching as a result.

[Nachomamma8]

So, what's the dealio. Is it "no information" or is it "Richard is scum and the wagon on me is scum saving scum".

This question, specifically?

[Nachomamma8]

V/LA until Monday.

[Nachomamma8]

so freaking tempting

[Nachomamma8]

Can't resist.

Unvote, Vote: RichardGHP

[Nachomamma8]

Hey guys, I helped hammer Richard tooo...

{Shotty
jmurph
FakeGod}

[Casus Belli
SpyreX
mas]

[Nachomamma8]

nachomamma, who do you suspect?

Jmurph, for posts like #184 and #197, where he calls SpyreX his top suspect and then proceeds to vote for his top suspect's top suspect.

One more question...
Nachomamma, did you actually think SpyreX would hammer RichardGHP if you put him at L-1?

Of course. I wouldn't have voted otherwise.

(Reckamonic
Substrike22)

[Nachomamma8]

Why, guess what...I reread the thread and decided that I still didn't like the way Shotty was/is playing. So really nice job taking what I said completely out of context.

What points did you read specifically? Just the point by SpyreX?

However, I do think that all credit for the hammer can't be given solely to Spy, and I think that not enough people have focused on Nachomamma, a fact that, ironically enough, he's pointed out himself.

What, do you expect someone else to do this for you?

[Nachomamma8]

Shotty, you have a problem with calling SpyreX scum. Are you trying to distance yourself from a SpyreX town flip? If not, why would you say things like...

Spyre's all or nothing attitude towards this isn't helpful in the least, he quick hammered, and his massive tunneling certainly isn't pro-town.

If we go inside the wagon I'd vote for Spyre, constant tunneling, quick-hammer, he isn't an asset even if he is town.

Spyre is at least partially genuine because I've seen him failtunnel before

I've read through your posts several times and I STILL haven't found you calling him scum. Why not?

Vote: Shotty

[Nachomamma8]

Mas, what do you think of Substrike's willingness to switch his vote from you to Richard, since you were both scum together anyways?

What do you think of post #167?

[Nachomamma8]

Why does it matter? I have a vote on him, I've been actively mentioning his scummy/anti-town-ness since at least the beginning of the day. Actions speak louder than words. I don't think I've seen you call me scum, what's up bro?

His reaction to SpyreX is also scummy in its own right

That's what's up bro.

[Nachomamma8]

FakeGod, that's all you'd like to contibute?

[Nachomamma8]

{Shotty
Fake
Sub}

[CES
jmurph]

{SpyreX
Causus
mas}

Yeah, this is just a post avoiding a prod.

jmurph's response has pushed her out of the realm of scum and into the realm of null.

[Nachomamma8]

Things are boring without Shotty around, I gotta admit.

Vote: FakeGod

Yeah, scummy. Why?

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho, why aren't we on your list?

You aren't interesting enough. Maybe some other day.

We are fairly disappointed in this lackluster vote switch. For the sake of argument, did you just come to the conclusion that "things are boring" without Shotty around? Or why was that not a factor when you voted him a week ago. If this wasn't really a reason for you jumping off his wagon, what is the actual reason and why did you not give it the first time?

When boredom comes, it comes. I'm not advancing the Shotty wagon in any way by sitting on my hands and waiting for him to come back, so there's no reason to stay on it. I'd much rather advance my read on FakeGod.

I find the case against Shotty very "meh".

I find the lack of a mention of actual points brought up against Shotty very concerning.

[Nachomamma8]

[quote"Cogito Ergo Sun"]Why?[/quote]
Well, the Shotty wagon is at L-2 with two people who are obviously willing to vote him, and obviously willing to push his lynch. You say the case on him is "meh", but you don't feel like explaining why. Seems to me like you're just distancing from a lynch.

[Nachomamma8]

Ah. Fair enough.

[Nachomamma8]

That won't be necessary.

[Nachomamma8]

Shotty needs a prod.
Fake needs a noose.

And Fake, shouldn't Shotty defend himself and see how people respond to his defense before claiming? Don't you think it's protown to claim as a last resort, not as a first response to a big wagon on you?

[Nachomamma8]

That's a great loaded question, Nacho.

That's not loaded. That's RHETORICAL.

Now, in any cases, claiming at L-1 is untrustworthy, and way too risky.

You're giving the scum the option of sacrificing one of their members to take out a powerful role.

Um, what? You're the one who's suggesting Shotty claim immediately instead of defending himself first...

[Nachomamma8]

Spy, will you help me lynch FakeGod until Shotty gets back?

PLEASEEEEE

[Nachomamma8]

No, not at all.

10/12 alive isn't typical LyLo in the mini normal's I've played in.

[Nachomamma8]

Oh. You're arguing you want Shotty to claim now because claiming at L-1 is dangerous?

You're not addressing my original point, then. Why claim now? Why not give Shotty a chance to defend himself first, especially since he's been gone so long...?

[Nachomamma8]

CHARLIE CAN I GET A VOTECOUNT PLEASEEEE

[Nachomamma8]

I'm pretty sure Shotty and Fake are both at L-1, and Fake is voting for Spyrex.

Fake, can you take a position on Shotty now?

[Nachomamma8]

Unvote, Vote: Masfloohinev

Sorry I've been gone everyone. I kind of forgot about this game. And really nothing else has happened. At this point, I wouldn't be opposed to an FG lynch, especially given what he's said on the last page. At this point however, since he never came back and claimed, I'm going to VOTE: Shotty.

Funny how I missed this post before. I don't really see why this is a real reason to vote. I mean, it's not like he REFUSED to claim, he simply hasn't been online TO claim. So, why is being gone a scumtell as opposed to a nulltell, jmurph?

@Substrike: Yeah. I agree with you, definitely. It's opportunistic that mas doesn't switch his vote in post #301, when the Shotty and Fake wagons were the same size and mas's vote switch could've put his top suspect at L-1, but he was more interested in fishing out a claim. Scum-mas has no motivation to keep his vote on town-Shotty since he probably won't be lynched (considering he's being replaced and all); he has far more reason to switch to FakeGod, who's far more lynchable. I also HATE how he's condensending in post #317 and decides to defend his vote with WIFOM, instead of linking to his FakeGod case and explaining the original Shotty vote. Then again, I'm still uncomfortable about FakeGod especially after the piggyback OMGUS vote, but I don't mind pursuing other avenues while we wait for a replacement.

Mod, could we have a week AFTER you find a replacement for our deadline extension? I mean, Shotty WAS one of the major bandwagons of D2, and two days is NOT a viable time to form a well thought out brand-new bandwagon. Plus, it's nice to give the replacements a little reading time before jumping in. Everyone knows replacements don't read during night.

[Nachomamma8]

Sorry I've been gone everyone. I kind of forgot about this game. And really nothing else has happened. At this point, I wouldn't be opposed to an FG lynch, especially given what he's said on the last page. At this point however, since he never came back and claimed, I'm going to VOTE: Shotty.

Funny how I missed this post before. I don't really see why this is a real reason to vote. I mean, it's not like he REFUSED to claim, he simply hasn't been online TO claim. So, why is being gone a scumtell as opposed to a nulltell, jmurph?

It's not a reason to vote in the first place as it is a reason to revote. I unvoted solely to give Shotty time to claim before someone hammered, to avoid what happened D1. When he didn't come back and claim, and with, then, at least, deadline approaching, I saw no reason not to put my vote back on Shotty.

Also, why does the fact that Shotty is being replaced merit unvoting him? Unless if the only reason why one is voting is voting for him is due to inactivity, I see no reason why a replacement makes the slot less scummy.

Well, let's see. When someone is being replaced, it means that we're going to get a fresh new set of eyes on the game that might see something we've missed. I don't trust people's play when they end up flaking because it means they really don't care about the game they're playing so despite what alignment they are, they're not playing to their wincon like everyone else is. It also means that you AREN'T going to get a claim, and honestly, I have not seen a case out of you on Shotty that warrants enough confidence to lynch without a claim.

[Nachomamma8]

In fact, Shotty's wagon even went to L-1. You seemed perfectly content with his lynch.

Mas put Shotty to L-1.

[Nachomamma8]

Spy? We told him we would hammer him, and most people claim when someone tells them they've gotten an intent to hammer. Richard wasn't getting replaced; we still had him around for reactions when we were discussing quickhammering him, and we saw firsthand his apathy. Shotty is GONE. He's flaked, disappeared, dead, MIA, not here... he couldn't claim if he wanted to.

@Mas: I miscounted; I missed that you and Reck were on the Fake bandwagon before... So, for me to answer your second point, we'll have to pretend that I never made a mistake and at post #301 the Shotty and Fake wagons WERE tied. Which would mean I saw you refuse to switch your vote to a wagon on your top suspect and put him to L-1, instead trying to coax a claim from someone who really wasn't there. Then, a few more people posted and still nobody hammered, then you decided to switch to the FakeGod wagon.

mas showed up to aid FakeGod though. "Yeah! He should claim now," shouts the overeager scumbuddy, anxious to help his partner look less like caught scum.

If mas was trying to back up his caught buddy's viewpoint, then why the hell would he put him at L-1 and THEN ask him to claim?

The problem is we are getting a fresh pair of scummy eyes. The argument is age old, should a fresh replacement be vindicated of their predecessors crimes? We've seen both sides of the argument countless times and I think that distinction is more personal to playstyle. Regarding masf: we think he probably falls on the side of allowing a replacement a chance but did an exceptionally poor job explaining it. We don't see scum submitting a post like that with the implication that a vote might be highly opportunistic and scummy.

Hm. Fair enough.

I'd like to see what Sub says about all of this, though.

[Nachomamma8]

Sub, the Reck quote was referring to his post where he suggested that mas and Fake were scumbuddies, and mas's request for Shotty to claim was backing Fake up.

[Nachomamma8]

I like it.

Unvote, Vote: jmurph

It's good to have solid townreads.

[Nachomamma8]

Oh yeah.

{FakeGod
jmurph
Casus Belli}

[CES
mas]

{SpyreX
Sub
Llama}

[Nachomamma8]

Also, and again, I NEVER SAID MAS WAS MY TOP SUSPECT. Stop putting words in my mouth. I said that I was inclined to believe at that point that one of the shotty v. mas was scum, and that while my gut told me Mas was more apt to be scum, I preferred to investigate something I thought was more interesting and would be more helpful.

Wait, what? I'd say that mas being your top suspect is a safe assumption. If not, then why wouldn't you mention your top suspect when making your first serious vote?

[Nachomamma8]

Oh, and another thing.

Why are you voting Llama right now? You said you were voting Shotty because he never came back and claimed, but since he flaked and the Llama wagon is now slowly becoming a notwagon, that's pretty much out the window. You also aren't really giving him anything to defend against or any material to work with, so are just going to lynch him based on your previous case on Shotty?

Also, can you give me your top three suspects with a short blurb on each?

[Nachomamma8]

jmurph, don't forget the question in 366.

[Nachomamma8]

The question was referring to your response to Llama in post #365. In the original post, you stated that mas was scummier than shotty on purely a gut level, then you affirmed it when q21 pointed out a contridiction in FoSing your top suspect and voting your second and you defended with "mas would freak out if I voted him" instead of "no, Shotty is my top suspect".

That answered some of it, but not all of it. What did your logic say about Shotty at that point that made him scummier than mas? Was it the connection with q21, or was it something more?

[Nachomamma8]

Yeah, it's gettin to be around that time...

Unvote, Vote: FakeGod

[Nachomamma8]

CB, do you honestly think you're going to get an entire wagon together in nine hours?

[Nachomamma8]

So the entire scumteam is on your wagon?

And I don't even think you've mentioned CES's name... Or really anything scumm that I've done...

[Nachomamma8]

I agree with a popcorn massclaim. Instead of starting it with a volunteer, however, I'd rather start it with mas (yesterday's counterwagon), and move on from there.

[Nachomamma8]

JOAT.

Casus, you're next.

[Nachomamma8]

I hid behind LlamaFluff last night.
And because of role-based reasons, I'm fairly sure that Reck and Cas share an alignment.

[Nachomamma8]

1. Why do you think the hydras are the same allignment?

Role-related information. If I planned on saying more, I would've said more. It's just something to keep in mind if I die.

2. If Llama was scum, would you have died?

Yes.

If mas flips roleblocker and I die in the same night, reck is scum.
If mas doesn't flip roleblocker, then my death at night means pretty much nothing.

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: mas

Ruining Spy's hopes and dreams.

[Nachomamma8]

Sub?
It would depress me immensely if you were scum.

[Nachomamma8]

No accusations or anything.
I'm just saying, I'll be depressed if you're scum.

[Nachomamma8]

So, I was kinda angry when I received the PM that I died. But, it made me chuckle so no hard feelings.
BAH