Mini #1007 (Game Over)

[Kid Know Nothing]

Sorry, was V-LA while I went back home to do a few things.

First, AGM, why me? I don't think I saw you make any points against me.

As to the points against me;
My voting. I place a lot of value in my vote and I put it where I think it should me. Not others. You can see that day two, when Hoopla asked me to vote Zach. Does that mean that in some games, I vote three or four times? Yeah, it does. Explain to me how this is scummy. From my viewpoint, not being on Zach's lynch would have been poor play as scum. I stayed on G&H on the basis that he ignored a lot of questions that he could have answered, even given his play style, while attempting to make it look like he was hunting. He made a lot of very poor points and buddied up to me, you can see that as well if you read back.

Secondly, no, I didn't vote Zach. Because over half the town was already willing to lynch him. Was my vote absolutely necessary in that? No. Does making a case against someone and not voting them paint me scum?

As to VRK, telling me that I'm guilty because I voted G&H. That is an incredibly awful point. Like others have said, would it be likely for all three scum to bus each other? Why would I vote G&H with Zach if we were scum-buddies? I'm missing your point.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

As to VRK, telling me that I'm guilty because I voted G&H. That is an incredibly awful point. Like others have said, would it be likely for all three scum to bus each other? Why would I vote G&H with Zach if we were scum-buddies? I'm missing your point.

That's an incredibly awful amount of WIFOM. G&H's play was detrimental to whatever side he was playing for, since he doesn't quite yet understand how to contribute without actually contributing. It just sucks to be you and Zach that he was a Mafia member. It actually makes perfect sense for both you and Zach to vote him to gain Town cred. He was going to be voted out anyway, why not make yourself look better?

[redtail896]

@VRK: do you then object to my reason for clearing CA?

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

@VRK: do you then object to my reason for clearing CA?

I could be coy and say "well I have to, don't I?". But I won't. Yes I object to your reason to an extent. I've been considering CA clear from Zach's flip, so to me this is more of a "going around your @$$ to get to your elbow" type of analysis. As you said in the post you're referring to, it could be possible. It could also be possible that Zach-G&H-KKN are the team and the same situation is happening. Your analysis applies to either setup, really. It could be possible that none of this is correct and you're just wrong.

I don't know what's right. It could very well be that CA IS the last scum, but I don't think it is. From my PoV, it's either KKN or CA, and that means that, no matter who the last scum is, there was a lot of bussing going on, whether we look at your analysis or mine. I don't think it's unreasonable for Zach and KKN to have started bussing G&H, especially when they did, considering how much flak G&H drew from everyone for his playstyle. And I'm really not considering your point about CA and the "too much bussing" because CA is clear to me from his interactions with Zach, so that whole line of thought is not on my radar.

As a final point, consider that optimal play for Mafia is to go ahead and bus their partner(s) if they need to. Why draw more suspicion to yourself by defending your partner when it looks like he could be going down? That makes no sense. If your partner is acting scummy, you bus him. You act just like you would if you were town. Your "too much bussing" issue could just as easily be arising because, let's face it, both of the Mafia members caught so far have been scummy. As the 3rd mafia member, you're not going to sit around and ignore the scumminess like the proverbial white elephant in the room, you're going to do something about it.

It might help to have CA's opinion in this whole mess as well.

[Kid Know Nothing]

But G&H was in no danger of being lynched. He was told his play didnt help the town, not that it was scummy. If I were to bus someone, why wouldn't I bus Zach, who had the full focus of the town?

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

I can't answer that question KKN. I'm not you. And that's just more WIFOM anyway. Just because it may or may not make sense doesn't mean that's not exactly what happened, does it? And I'm really not focused on you for any one specific thing anyway. I've already listed my arguments. As I'm thinking about it, I'm down to process of elimination more than any one "tell". redtail is obvtown. AGM and CA are clear to me by their interactions with Zach. That leaves you. The only one, to me, that has a chance to be mafia other than you is CA, but my reads of Zach's attacks on him don't paint that picture. I think it's much more likely, however "unlikely" by the various analyses that are out there, that you are the last Mafia. Vote following Zach. Going after G&H. Expressing suspicion of Zach and not going after him when he was a much clearer candidate. You trying to argue one point of the puzzle is not going to help your case. The fact that you're arguing the one point that everyone else is hung up on means that you're grasping at straws, trying your best to redirect suspicion away from yourself.

[Kid Know Nothing]

Or I'm arguing the point that makes no sense. I've already explained why I didnt vote Zach, if you can't take that as it is, fine. But if I'm going to be lynched, I'd perfer it be for something more with more substance than I voted someone I felt was getting away with discussing little due to play styles.

[redtail896]

Or I'm arguing the point that makes no sense. I've already explained why I didnt vote Zach, if you can't take that as it is, fine. But if I'm going to be lynched, I'd perfer it be for something more with more substance than I voted someone I felt was getting away with discussing little due to play styles.

You have an explanation for your lack of Zach vote, but I still don't think it explains the fact that you presented a well-researched, thought out case against Zach while keeping your vote on G&H for much worse reasons.

What do you think of AGM and CA?

[Kid Know Nothing]

Or I'm arguing the point that makes no sense. I've already explained why I didnt vote Zach, if you can't take that as it is, fine. But if I'm going to be lynched, I'd perfer it be for something more with more substance than I voted someone I felt was getting away with discussing little due to play styles.

You have an explanation for your lack of Zach vote, but I still don't think it explains the fact that you presented a well-researched, thought out case against Zach while keeping your vote on G&H for much worse reasons.

What do you think of AGM and CA?

I think that CA is getting away with either lurking really hard right now, or just not being around at all. I'd like to at least hear something from him or a replacement today. As for him in general? I'm not really sure, to be honest. It would require a re-read tomorrow.

AGM is tough with me. Because he has posts that scream town, and posts that reek scum. Today is a rough day for me to go back and read and present posts for examples, I have a night class in a few hours, but I should be able to give you better examples tomorrow.

I presented a case on Zach because I was asked for my thoughts. I didn't have any, so I isolated him. I didn't vote him because he had pretty much the full focus on the town, I didn't have to vote him. Did I? I mean, I understand where you are coming from, but was it absolutely critical that I voted for him? No. G&H, while I respect the play style, bothered me a lot more than Zach. Because while Zach had a lot of one-liner fluff, G&H always posted a lot of "content" that focused on really minor details mostly, it was grasping at straws and in my eyes an attempt to have massive posts with slight content. Active lurking done fairly well.

[redtail896]

I agree that CA is getting away with some crazy lurking (

Mod: If there is no response from CA, could we please replace him?

), but I still am loathe to lynch him right now.

As for the Zach thing, I guess the problem stems from my understanding of the vote as who you think is scummiest (barring gambits, lurker pressure, etc.). I understand your vote on G&H as signifying that G&H was scummier than Zach. As scum, I think that's a rather easy stance to take; G&H was unlikely to actually be lynched, while Zach was the overwhelming target. Also, it would've been easier perhaps for scum on D2 to simply accept the loss of one of their own instead of trying to start a bandwagon on a third party (and creating undue suspicion).

I admit that one of my primary reasons for not voting KKN is the tracker result. @everyone else: how much of a bar do you think that should be?

[Kid Know Nothing]

If I was scum and accepted Zach was done for, why not vote him for town points? I get that it's wifom, in a way, but does wifom in near end-game benefit me in this case?

[redtail896]

In hopes that another bandwagon or good opportunity might emerge?

I admit that I'm treading into ridiculous territory here.

[AlmasterGM]

Sorry for not posting for a while, I've been insanely busy and have only really had time to pay attention to one or two games at a time and this one is moving the slowest, so...yeah.

I'll double check everything tomorrow, but based on the past 5 posts or whatnot, I don't think I'm changing my mind.

[redtail896]

Yeah, we're stuck in a kind of limbo.

Vote: VRK

I'm unsure of my play tomorrow at this stage, but I think I feel most comfortable lynching VRK today.

[AlmasterGM]

CA coasting right now is making me extremely uneasy. KKN has not improved.

VRK is last on my list of the trio...and it's a distant last.. Redtail, I don't think I can go along with that vote.

[Kid Know Nothing]

AGM, you haven't even given any reasons why you think I'm scum. How can I improve when I don't know why you think I'm scummy?

Plus, why is it that as soon as attention shifts my way, the biggest proponent of the case against me manages to lurk away?

[Espeonage]

I will start looking for a CA replacement now. I will do a new votecount when I find a replacement.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

AGM, you haven't even given any reasons why you think I'm scum. How can I improve when I don't know why you think I'm scummy?

Plus, why is it that as soon as attention shifts my way, the biggest proponent of the case against me manages to lurk away?

I'm here and it's only been 2 days, so don't get your panties in a bunch. People have RL too.

I've got nothing else to say at this point. I'm waiting on a CA replacement, unless there's something I missed that needs answering.

[Espeonage]

Equinox replaces ConfidAnon

[redtail896]

Hello again Equinox. Glad to see you. What do you think of this mess?

Unvote

until Equinox has her say.

[Equinox]

HI PEOPLE. Shout-outs to people I know, dead or alive.

So, uh, I've been watching this thread (sort of) since Day 4. I was writing up a post earlier and then I realized I had no idea WTH I was on about since I lacked background information, so... let me read over Day 3, I'll jump in, and continue reading backward as we go along.

...

Actually, screw the delay. I'll just say stuff anyway and then post a more learned opinion later.

Vel-Rahn Koon playing the martyr card so many times has me on edge. Martyr cards are townish, but playing like a broken record... ehh.
I thought the case AlmasterGM brought against Kid Know Nothing was good while I was watching, but now that I have a stake here, I need to look it over again, particularly Good & Honest's play.
redtail896 is playing to his town meta, so +5 trust points.

Okay. Uh. I'll catch up momentarily.

[Kid Know Nothing]

Mod: Any chance on an extension for the new replacement? Even if it's just two days or so?

[Kid Know Nothing]

EBWOP:

Oh, and hello Equinox!

[Espeonage]

You still have 4 days. I think that is long enough for you guys.

[redtail896]

Vel-Rahn Koon playing the martyr card so many times has me on edge. Martyr cards are townish, but playing like a broken record... ehh.
I thought the case AlmasterGM brought against Kid Know Nothing was good while I was watching, but now that I have a stake here, I need to look it over again, particularly Good & Honest's play.
redtail896 is playing to his town meta, so +5 trust points.

Meaning I probably have all the wrong reads. I know

The martyr card has become kind of a null thing for me at this point; I think it was too easy for him to play it yesterday, and even easier today. I'm actually surprised that Hoopla placed so much stock in it.

Also, I'm curious how much everybody thinks we should care about Hoopla's tracker result on KKN.