Newbie 993 - Game Over!

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Applefarmer replaces trach.

Official Vote Count

Thian - 2 (Chimp Pants, Mysterio)
Chimp Pants - 1 (Kirbyoshi)
Kirbyoshi - 1 (Leech)

Not Voting - 3 (Applefarmer, startransmission, Thian)

4 to Lynch.

Click for Deadline

[Applefarmer]

Reporting in. I'll give the thread a read-through and try to post some opinions after I get back from class today.

[Thian]

Chimp Pants: I felt that shotty was a distraction because of his reaction in some responses to questions and comments posed to him along with votes. He became frusterated, resorted to swearing / caps, and name calling. He also flew accusations around based on him being "Mad". It felt like, if this was going to be the way he would respond in the game I would be constantly questioning why his reactions were of frusteration. Would he be a townie getting frusterated at being wrongly accused, or a scum getting emotional for getting caught? Would he start OMGUS'ing just because someone voted for him? I don't want to waste my time figuring him out when I can use my time more wisely on those who are not clear to me.

[startransmission]

Star you didn't answer chimp pants question directly. you stated who you felt was town, not scum.

I implied where my focus would be. I'm not saying that either Leech or Chimp is town, but I'm looking at the shotty wagon, and of all the players on it I'm less suspicious of those two.

Star you didn't answer my question directly either. ""Do you feel that mysterio's reasons were good?" I didn't ask if it made him more suspicious or not.

I don't see his reasons being very far off of the reasons that others had, including yourself. You seem to distinguish a vote with a hammer, which is only understandable if the reasons for either are different. Which in this case it's not. I'm not liking how you seem to have a problem with Myst's hammer, but aren't explaining why exactly, and are pursuing the opinions of others on why it might be scummy. Please explain exactly why you feel Myst's reasons for voting are different from your own, and why his hammer bothers you.

And no, neither of you voted for reasons that were spectacular. Policy lynches are never ideal, but if they have to happen D1 is the time. I'm sorry if I was unclear on that.

Star Is this feeling you have about Leech and chimp Pants based on gut?

Yes, but I don't have any strong feelings about their alignments. I'm less suspicious of them/more interested in a couple of other players.

[Mysterio]

Mysterio, do you believe that scum hunting is determined by vote? or is it determined by questions and content to analyze?

The two methods aren't mutually exclusive, nor are they useful without the other. Questioning someone without ever voting for them gets us nowhere. It's fluff and simply makes it appear as if you're scumhunting, when in actuality you're doing absolutely nothing.

Also, are you trying to justify with your last post that my vote on shotty is more suspicious compared to your hammer?

Are you saying a hammer is inherently more suspicious? Do you or do you not think Shotty should have been lynched? If so, what would my hammer have to do with being suspicious?

When you consider that I have actively voted on my suspicions, my vote on Shotty is nothing out of the ordinary. However, you kept your vote on a non-existent player for the entire game until Shotty came in late in the game and gave you an easy target.

That

is suspicious.

[Thian]

Startransmission.
Mysterio stated that Shotty was not hinting to claim anything while sitting at L-1 and that justified his hammer along with an incompetency to play the game. Did it not even sink into his head that if you have no role to claim it might be better off if you are VT not to claim anything at all. If shotty had claimed anything other than VT ((which then would be WIFOM and useless)) it may cause other power roles to view him as lying and give even more reason to put a vote on him. The only people who might benefit from claiming something when they are about to be lynched are Scum, and power roles.

And why I am persuing your opinion on it? Based on your policy in post 101. "People vote for a variety of reasons make sure you hammer or even put someone at l-1 for good ones". You haven't bothered to question Mysterio about the hammer nor engaged conversation with the person who put Shotty at L-1. If you believe in that policy, why did you not question it further with Mysterio and engage in a conversation, especially since we lost a townie during that lynch and it was your policy.

I know if I were in your shoes and I stated you need good reasons to hammer. I would seriously look into those reason and not just play it off as, oh well D-1 policy lynch thats ok on to the next one.

Then to top it off insert Mysterio into the mix.
Starting with Day one. Leech voted for Mysterio, but pressured hinduragi with questions. This triggered Mysterio to feel that Leech was FOS'ing Hinduragi while voting for Mysterio. Mysterio thought Leech was scummy for that and called it distancing.

Yet what is Mysterio doing right out of the gate on Day 2? FOSing Startransmission and Voting for someone else. Completely hypocritical.

and now I have both of you questioning me, without bothering to look at each other, Star passing off Mysterio as just another one of the group on the wagon and Mysterio FOSing yet voting else where.


Mysterio:
I am saying your hammer is inherently more suspicious. Shotty in my mind had good reason to be lynched. He was a distraction, his emotional response to simple questions or votes placed on him caused him to look scummy in my eyes. Also self voting? That is not towards a townie win condition which all sides should be playing to in the first place. And your hammer which caused a lynch on a townie was based on someone not claiming anything, especially since he might not have had anything to claim or reason to claim?

Now Mysterio you question my integrity behind my votes due to suspicion. Did you not remember Kirbyoshi asking who my top three scum reads were?

@Thian: Who are your top 3 scum reads?

To KirbYoshi:
Top 3:
1. Mysterio for the AtE's, and all of what has been questioned on him so far.
2. Illume ((theory after this))
3. Steppenwolf ((theory below))

These were my top three suspects Chimp Pants is not on that list currently anymore as suspicious. He has contributed more townie in my eyes. Shotty is lynched, which leaves you Mysterio.

Mysterio, you were in the top spot. Illume ((chimp pants replaced)) was in my second spot based on a replacement theory that was being tested. Steppenwolf ((DrMyShottyizsik replace)) in third spot again on a replacement theory which was being tested and turned out wrong. If I really wanted to put my money where my mouth was, my vote would be on you during that time. However, you and leech tunnelled in on each other, you both were distracting, just as much as Shotty was, just in a different ways. The debate that bubbled up from you both allowed people to hide, or focus questions completely on what you or leech were going off of which was limiting to participation levels from other people on a conversation you both dominantly controlled.


So now comes what I find odd, why are you suggesting I should have voted for Trachimbrod if I questioned him so much, when my initial scum radar was on you?

Post 345 Mysterio said. You aren't even voting for the player you've questioned the most (brod), who you believe is being scummy with his lack of voting.

I haven't said he was scummy with lack of voting. I thought his hesitation and caution starting a bandwagon was needless and suscpicious and questioned based on his caution why he didn't vote when he really expressed a desire to.
Unlike Trachimbrod, I never said anywhere "oh, I was going to vote for this person, but.... I'm not going to because of <<insert irrelevant concern here>>"

Vote: Mysterio

[Chimp Pants]

@Thian:
Please correct me if I'm wrong so that I can be sure to understand you: You find Star scummy because his play is inconsistent with his stated opinions about basic mafia strategy. Is this correct?

I'll comment on Thian/Mysterio after I see Mysterio's response.

[Applefarmer]

Sorry guys, it is taking longer than I would like to get through all of this.

[Kirbyoshi]

Ugh, I'm sorry too. I'm not sure why, but I'm having trouble getting into this game. I'll try to post more often. Sorry again.

[Kirbyoshi]

So, about why CP...

I simply had a vibe, then I went back and examined Hindu's voting pattern. The only thing I saw on anybody from that is that Hindu voted for Chimp for what at first was no reason. He then went back and justified it by saying that he was "waiting for someone to say Chimp Pants was obvtown." This was Hindu's only vote that was even mildly serious. The only possible explanation would be that Hindu had a hunch that CP was scum, so he voted him, Chimp thought it was too risky, so he killed Hindu.

[Chimp Pants]

@Kirby: Even if we accept the useless WIFOM that comes from speculating about a NK at this point, this doesn't make sense. In your WIFOM Hindu called me obvtown, scumChimp thought that a townie (Hindu) was lying, panicked, and NKd him. What scum motivations would I have to NK someone who called me obvtown?

You've had a week to come up with a reason for your vote and all you have is NK WIFOM that doesn't even makes sense on its own terms.

[Kirbyoshi]

No, he didn't call you obvtown. He said he was

waiting

for someone

else

to call you obvtown. Looking for buddies. He had a simple hunch, nothing solid, went fishing on it, and came back with seemingly nothing. I don't think it was nothing. I think there might have been something there.

[Chimp Pants]

@Kirby: He wasn't looking for buddies. I asked him what someone calling me obvtown would mean.

They'd appear scummy. Trying to out someone as town so early is nothing town would do. Scum would know said person is town and would say "Hey, he's playing well. That vote isn't well justified. I'll get some support and attack the vote".

He said "scum would notice said person

is town

." He made no mention of looking for scum buddies. In order for your NK speculation to be internally consistent, we have to assume that Hindu was lying about his reason for voting for me. At the very least, you'd have to assume that

I believed

that Hindu was lying about his reasoning. Do my posts suggest that to you? Why would a VT lie about why he's voting?

[Thian]

Chimp pants, I find it questionable, not neccesarily scummy of Start not to question his own policy on the person who hammered. The hammer came down so hastily by mysterio, and that doesn't cause reason for concern? It's just played off as D-1 Policy lynch?

Mysterio's reasons were not that good in my opinion. His reasons were based off of being impatient with Shotty. Shotty was not claiming fast enough for Mysterio's liking, also for the dumbass comments directed towards Mysterio and as mysterio puts it being incompetent to play the game. As well, Mysterio wanting the next phase of the game to start.

It seems to me Mysterio was not basing it off of Shotty playing the game, but more of shotty as a person.

why be impatient and why the rush to hammer and get the day over with Mysterio?

Shotty may not have wanted to claim anything to not give information out to scum. However, even a VT claim would help by getting reactional responses that would have started conversations and assisted us going into Day 2. Instead Mysterio does not wait for the claim, hammers just to get the day over with.

Kirbyoshi. I could just as easily point out this scenario as well.
you wrote : @everyone: Who is most likely to be scum if shotty flips town? What if he flips scum?
Hinduragi wrote: You, because you're asking during Twilight so you know who to kill during the night phase.
Hinduragi then pointed the question back at you and all you said was. I will answer tomorrow, I promise.
Was hinduragi right to suspect you? Did you end up stalling until night time so you didn't have to respond? Then ended up NK'ing him so you didn't have someone coming after you?

I could also point out. The very first vote in the game by Mysterio was Hinduragi and Hinduragi is dead now.

Are these fair things to assess someones guilt on?

[Leech]

Sorry guys really stressed for time. We need more votes on Kirby. He refuses to address points against him and he's literally doing no scumhunting in this game. Read any other game of us and you will see him playing much, much, differently. He is scum.

[startransmission]

At the last day of my work week, hope to have something up tonight.

[startransmission]

At the last day of my work week, hope to have something up tonight.

And a horrid fucking day it was. Oh well, I have the next three days off. Will be posting starting tomorrow morning, drunk and exhausted at the moment.

One thing in the meantime,

jump on shotty instead of commenting on any of the other fallacies that are going on in this thread.

Again, where did I jump on Shotty? What fallacies am I missing/ignoring? Or is my asking you legitimate questions a way of avoiding "contributing"?[/quote]

This I still want answered. Not a big deal, but I want it answered.

[Mysterio]

I've been stupidly busy these last few days. I'll try to get a relevant post up sometime tomorrow.

[Chimp Pants]

I'm looking forward to all the promised content...

[Mysterio]

Kirbyoshi looked like prime lurkerscum material to me due to his last post, but I checked his posts and since then he hasn't posted anything site wide in a few days. Now I'm starting to think it's pure lack of activity.

@mod, requesting prod on Kirbyoshi

Starting with Day one. Leech voted for Mysterio, but pressured hinduragi with questions. This triggered Mysterio to feel that Leech was FOS'ing Hinduragi while voting for Mysterio. Mysterio thought Leech was scummy for that and called it distancing.

Yet what is Mysterio doing right out of the gate on Day 2? FOSing Startransmission and Voting for someone else. Completely hypocritical.

First of all, please read things a little more carefully. I questioned Leech because he had a genuine suspicion of Hindu, but kept his admittedly weak RVS vote on me. That is the issue. Voting for one person and FoSing another in general cannot possibly be scummy BECAUSE YOU CAN ONLY VOTE ONE PERSON AT A TIME. So, you vote your top suspect and FoS the next suspicious player in order to keep pressure on them.

The bottom line is your vote is more suspicious than Star's lack of voting. Not scumhunting can simply mean he is a confused/lazy townie, whereas your voting was deliberately anti-town. You kept a vote on a player that wasn't in the game and never bothered to unvote when that fact was pointed out to you. You coasted through the entire game ignoring the discussion Leech and I had while endlessly questioning Brod for being cautious. Finally, you placed a vote on an obvious VI who was going to be policy lynched instead of me (your apparently top suspect) or Brod who you were questioning. Unlike Star, your lack of scumhunting seems deliberate and opportunistic. As such, you are scummier than Star.

I am saying your hammer is inherently more suspicious. Shotty in my mind had good reason to be lynched. He was a distraction, his emotional response to simple questions or votes placed on him caused him to look scummy in my eyes. Also self voting? That is not towards a townie win condition which all sides should be playing to in the first place.

Then why the hell would a hammer be inherently suspicious? You've just openly contradicted yourself. If Shotty deserved to be lynched, then voting to lynch him is not scummy. You seem to be flailing at this point to try and cast suspicions on me for hammering a VI, when your vote was opportunistic as hell.

I haven't said he was scummy with lack of voting.

Orly?

Trachimbrod: Mastin's Insane Tells ((Theory)) (MiT))

One of his theories is the second vote on the bandwagon is more than likely a scum tell especially in newbie games. Also that someone who expresses caution is scum. Now this is just theory, no real stats to prove effective enough to state 100 percent that this is a true scum tell but I can see where it comes into play here with you Trachimbrod.

To put your name second on mysterio it would raise the suspicion meter on you, scum would not want suspicion on them that early and would be more hesitant to join a bandwagon without a consensus or others on the bandwagon before them. You expressed a desire to put a vote on Mysterio but only after you had discussed it with everyone and formed a consensus.

You also approached putting any type of voting on Mysterio with caution because it would put him at L-3 as stated L-3 is not so much to worry about compared to L-2 but more so L-1.

Caution based on MiT states that because one is cautious it is scum trying to look protown. So your reaction to putting someone at L-3 seems a bit contrived.

Couple this with your insistence that Brod being cautious makes him suspicious in post #214 makes it pretty clear how you felt about Brod. And now that I've called you on it, you're trying to deny it. This is more scummy behavior.

@Applefarmer, where'd you go?

@Leech, what's your take on Thian and Star?

@Kirbyoshi, respond to the cases against you.

@Star, CAN YOU PLEASE SCUMHUNT NOW? You still haven't voted anyone the entire game. This is getting ridiculous. We have a lot of dead weight which is slowing this game down to a crawl.

[Leech]

@Leech, what's your take on Thian and Star?

Thian is looking scummier by the minute, and Star refuses to be of use. I know I'm stressed for time at the moment, but he has been since the game started. The fact that he hasn't voted is not the message he should be getting across, either. I'm frustrated with him and his style. Especially considering he said he always starts slow, but gets more active as time goes on, when that simply isn't the case.

Overall, I maintain that Kirby is scum. Thian is actually setting off alarms when he hasn't before so I'll definitely keep him in mind, but he's out-shined by Kirby.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Hi all,

Sorry I was out of town for the long weekend and I thought I'd have internet access but I did not. Prods have gone out to those needing them.


Vel

[Kirbyoshi]

Wow, Vel's really good with those prods. Rereading cases now.

[Kirbyoshi]

6-20 are all either fluff, fence sitting, IIoA, or complaining. There is literally no scumhunting in any of these posts. That is a frightening portion of your game to have, almost literally, done nothing.

Erm, could you pull out specific posts? Not everything in that range is doing those things.

21: You parrot and pretty much say "that's what I was thinking" when the topic was "Active Lurking" which is a concept you should not be unfamiliar with. You specifically stated you were "trying to put your finger on" it, yet you shouldn't have had a hard time figuring that out if you were actually paying attention. Your reaction here shows me that you aren't really scumhunting. You are parroting.

So I couldn't put a name to what Hindu was doing that was scummy. Am I scummy for that? Or did I just forget the name for a scumtell?

22- IIoA, again.

Wrong. Pointing out a fallacy.

23- Fluff, again.

Wrong. Asking clarification.

29- Appeal to emotion with shotty, then you actually have the balls to ask him for explanation when you've not given any, yourself, this entire game.

Sympathy is not AtE. Also, the game of Mafia takes balls. If you have none, you should not sign up for a game.

This is almost the scummiest question you can ask near the end of a day phase. Keep in mind, if Kirby is scum, the second question is worthless. There is absolutely no reason for town to ask this question, at this time, period. The reason this question would be asked, is either for scum to keep around the scummiest player, or kill them for wifom. The only question that is scummier than that is: "So, guys, who should I kill?"

Or I was trying to generate discussion.

32- Fluffy pointless question that has absolutely no trace of scumhunting

I was trying to get a feel for his experience level. How could you not see that?

[Thian]

Alright, about the only thing I can do here since chimp pants and Mysterio continously want to put their vote on me, is ask if they want a claim. That way there is enough time for discussion before deadline to help you guys out.

I will agree with leech that Kirbyoshi is looking a bit off and the reason for that is his vote on chimp pants is probably not in the best place right now.

Mysterio: Did you not notice that Leech was doing just that at the beginning, voting someone and pressuring another. Yet you called that scummy and distancing. You are doing the same thing on day 2 so why is what you are doing different on day 2 than what leech was doing different on day one?

The reason why i was ignoring your debate with leech mysterio is because there are other people in the game who needed to be engaged in a conversation that was not based on "the mysterio and leech show". Instead they were sitting on the sidelines commenting on your debate, but were not being questioned on their comments or ideas. Why was I so insistant and repetative during those times? the amount of explanation / re-explaining because people didn't understand, or were refusing to get it is why it went on for longer than it should have.

The hammer is more suspicious on you because the way you did it mysterio. The impatientness to not wait for a proper claim when there was still a few more days.

Trachimbrod's replacement has not come around nor has delivered on his promise of a re-read so until then, I'm good where my vote is because I don't have any content from trachimbrod anymore, and his replacement hasn't posted anything and Mysterio seems to want to direct where my vote goes onto a person who has not posted any content yet to analyze.