Open 238: Trendy and Subversive Game Over

[jenniwren]

Hi!

Orochi already counterclaimed, so I will confirm that Orochi was the nurse and he protected Sawyer. That's all I have on that.

How has TeeJay NOT been lynched yet?

[jenniwren]

I'm a late arrival to this game, but have been keeping an eye on it because of some people I know from another game (that just ended). Anyway...I have read everything and have been trying to finish a detailed post about why I think TeeJay should be lynched POST HASTE and why Gonnano should follow him to the gallows tomorrow. This is my quick and dirty breakdown of the first portion of the game. Should the day last long enough, I will try to post again, but I wanted to get something up here before I went to sleep because I have a lot to do tomorrow, and I have to catch up in another game before I travel on Wednesday, and I don't know how long things will last, and I will probably take a swim with the fishes tonight since I am the Nurse, despite what TeeJay claims. Therefore I am trying to make both my cases before I am silenced.

Why TeeJay is scum:

First and foremost

I am the nurse and actually did protect Sawyer last night (well, Orochi did), and therefore I know TeeJay is lying.

Secondly:

He has been very scummy from the very beginning of the game. How many times has someone pointed this out? How many times has he slipped through the net? So many times have I seen people say “convenient, I don’t believe you,” or “I’m not buying it…” Your guts say he’s scum. Back it up with a vote! I’ve been making a post about his scumminess, but even just quoting and commenting with one-liners has me up to like three pages in Word.

Let me just sum it up with this.
He accuses Podium in post #45. Doesn’t find him suspicious until he’s at L-1? REEEALLY? In the midst of all the backpedaling he does with Podium’s case, he “discovers” in post #137 that Mallow is vote-hopping, and in ONE post he makes a case against Mallow (consisting of FAR less text than the one on Podium), and VOTES FOR HIM. Uh…the Podium case was about 75-80 posts long before he backs off—just at the exact time he finds Podium to be suspicious—and yet within ONE post judges and votes Mallow?

He is obviously trying to change the subject with that, but no one is buying it. In posts #152 and 153, he throws Millar in the mix, but ODDin and Podium aren’t done with making him answer for the great Podium debacle.

Sawyer’s Post 194…good catch. Oddin catches him, too, in post #141.

Just a thought about his early play:
Post # 45: Begins the case on Podium. I feel like his choice to be aggressive with Podium in the Millar/Podium incident should have been backed up with a vote. Otherwise, it’s too much like he’s trying to get a wagon going based on Millar’s vote but avoid taking the blame. I would have found his aggression less scummy had he voted.

As it is, he sticks around long enough to make sure people are into it, then vanishes, only reappearing to stir the pot some more.

It takes a lot to get me to vote, I am cautious, maybe even too cautious,

but not cautiousness that stems from scummieness

, but one that stems from not wanting to lynch the wrong guy.

Why the disclaimer? So that you can refuse to vote at the exact moment you find someone to be worth voting for? Afraid of being the bad guy…knowing that Podium was right that a rushed lynch would only throw suspicion back at you, who started the whole thing.


*******


Going on and making case #2 as I will probably eat it tonight if you lynch TeeJay and not me right now.

Why Gonnano is scum:
I love this post (196) about SAWYER! And guess what? He didn’t care that TEEJAY was doing the same thing!

By "he has done nothing about his scum reads" I meant that he made accusations but no votes, which I don't like.

Throws suspicion on Sawyer for not voting for his suspects…but doesn’t mention that TEEJAY did the same thing with Podium? >.> Almost seventy-five posts…most of them walls…and no vote? And SAWYER’S suspicious? Post #199

Accuses Sawyer of tying to start wagons so he can jump on whichever one takes off…never mind that TEEJAY FoS’d three people in RVS and made cases on two more, then attacked the sixth person on page two, got that one to stick, and never voted him despite his walls of text implicating him.

Okay…I’m very tired now…but I will finish this later if we’re still in daytime when I get back to the game. Otherwise…your scum team are Teejay and Gonnano.

[jenniwren]

Oh yeah, just in case I need to make it clear that I am keeping Orochi's vote on TeeJay:

VOTE: TEEJAY

[Sawyer]

Alright. I was feeling the same as Jen just about the entire time up until Gonnano made his 3 points regarding the claim and counterclaim. Since Orochi wasn't able to respond, nothing can be gained from it aside from speculation and top that off with Jens case on TJ, I'm going with my original vote.

Vote: TeeJay

[gonnano]

I find it strange that both of our claimed nurses say they protected the same person. What exactly is so townie about Sawyer that both nurses claimed to have protected him?

Throws suspicion on Sawyer for not voting for his suspects…but doesn’t mention that TEEJAY did the same thing with Podium? >.> Almost seventy-five posts…most of them walls…and no vote? And SAWYER’S suspicious?

Are you talking about when TJ was considering a hammer vote? That's a pretty different situation.

He accuses Podium in post #45. Doesn’t find him suspicious until he’s at L-1? REEEALLY?

podium was nowhere near L-1 at that point.

I was feeling the same as Jen just about the entire time up until Gonnano made his 3 points regarding the claim and counterclaim. Since Orochi wasn't able to respond, nothing can be gained from it aside from speculation and top that off with Jens case on TJ, I'm going with my original vote.

read "for a second I thought I might have to bus my partner, but then I got this great excuse not to!"

I'll have to hear from TJ to make my final conclusion, but jenniwren's posts seem to me like scum trying anything to push the town into losing the game.

[Sawyer]

Good thing we have a top notch scum hunter like Gonnano to see that I was bussing Teejay in these latest moments, rather than being suspicious of him almost the entire game while pushing for his lynch. Obviously I wasn't doing that though. Nice catch, Gonnano.

[jenniwren]

Yeah Gonnano....
he accuses him at 45, but later says he didn't find suspicious enough to vote for until he was L-1. I was paraphrasing like 75 posts or more worth of material there. I believe it's pretty obvious that's what I'm saying, since it is all old news, D1 material. You accused Sawyer of trying to test wagons before hopping on one because he said people were suspicious but hadn't voted. I pointed out that TeeJay did the same damn thing by getting a good wagon going on Podium and not voting AT ALL. He would have been the SECOND vote, not the fifth, had he voted Podium when he first accused him. He makes all this noise about how he needs time to be sure someone's really guilty before even casting a vote, but makes a case and actually votes Mallow in one single post, when before, it was OBVIOUS Podium was his sole focus.

[jenniwren]

By the way, asking me to speculate about why Orochi protected Sawyer is moot; I'm sure he had his reasons, but I am not privy to them.

[gonnano]

Sawyer, the point of my comment was not that you were bussing TJ, but that you might have had to bus orochi. Luckily, orochi got replaced and you throw all my points out the window and hop right back on the TJ wagon.

[TeeJay]

You got to be freaking kidding me! Orochi, counter-claimed. ROFL! That was the dumbest scum move I have ever seen!

I have to say Jen, I feel sorry for how badly he screwed things up for you.

Let's set the record straight. The fact that your role has been replaced so many times is very peculiar, I have to admit, that is really abnormal for scum.

That being said, each player had scumtells all their own.

Mallow himself voted like he had Turrets (I am not trying to make fun of the handicapped), and tried to pass it off a noob mistake.
Orochi went off and counter-claimed nurse, something that I am still puzzled about.

The only things you have going for you are that you are new, and your role has been changed about as often as I change my roles of toilet paper.


The arguments you made against me:
You mentioned that others don't believe me and that their gut says I'm scum. There really isn't much to say about this, but hardly enough to prove my scumminess.

As far as the whole case of Podium, honestly that is the biggest reason I am a target. One foul screw up I've been regretting ever since. The truth of the matter is, in post 45 I was simply attempting to get a reaction out of him, it was hardly early enough to warrant me being certain of anything. The "back-pedaling" as you put was simply me stating that I didn't hammer because I wanted to process my decision. There has been endless debate about whether or not I contradicted myself.

As to why I changed my vote from Podium, simple. I had gotten caught up in the argument between Podium, Oddin, and Myself so much that I had gotten trigger happy without stepping back to consider whether or not this was just a case of emotional frenzy and tunnel vision. After I stepped back, I realized that maybe he wasn't as guilty as I thought. I reread the forum and realized that Mallow had Turret's and lame excuses to boot. Being as he was not in danger of being lynched I prodded him with a vote. I was in no way trying to change the subject, as you put it, I was simply widening my vision since I had been so focused on Podium.

And as far as me not backing it up with a vote, it was pg. 2, if I remember right. Woopdi-freaking-do.

As far as: "he sticks around long enough to make sure people are into it, then vanishes, only reappearing to stir the pot some more."
The truth of the matter is I really don't think that in-depth, the reality is the reason I have my vanishing acts is because I took college courses during the summer and work at the school as well (so I don't get a summer).

Now the disclaimer you mentioned... It's speculation, that is it.

At the very least, since both of us are goners (if your lynched, and I am NK'ed), it has been a great game. I only feel sorry that you stepped into this mess.

[TeeJay]

Sorry, forgot to vote scum

Vote: Jenn

[jenniwren]

Sorry TeeJay, I know you're lying. It was a good play in claiming and naming a target, but basically you could have said anyone who was alive had been your target. It's ironic that you randomly picked the actual target. I can't believe you've made it this far, but I'm not in the game, so I got everything in pages rather than in posts. It was easier to see the entire tapestry that is your game that way. Have you counted how many times someone has brought up how suspicious they are of you (maybe not in those exact words, but in some form or fashion)? I don't know what black magic you have worked over them to convince them of your innocence, but it's good.

You should definitely vote TeeJay today for lying about being the nurse. He won't be NK'd, as Mafia don't suicide. He's led you on a merry chase, so you need to trust your instincts and eliminate the scum. And vote Gonnano tomorrow.

[podium123456]

That was the dumbest scum move I have ever seen!

actually, it wasn't that dumb. if they hadn't counter claimed u, then one of the biggest scum suspects in the game (you) gets cleared automatically. why not counterclaim and take the chance that your prior scumminess will end the game now?

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I am very suspicious of how sawyer jumped off and back on teejay just now... that is out of character based on my experience with him in this game. it twirks my ears even more that he cites jenn's case on TJ as a reason he is switching back to TJ... im not sure that jens case should mean that much, since she would say anything to avoid lynch.

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Then we have gonnano not hammering TJ. That means that gonnano=scum and TJ=town in this game is not possible. So either gonnano and TJ are partners, or gonnano is town.

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thinking

[podium123456]

He won't be NK'd, as Mafia don't suicide.

This is an odd statement, considering the circumstances. Why did you say it?

[jenniwren]

Because he said "At the very least, since both of us are goners (if your lynched, and I am NK'ed), it has been a great game. I only feel sorry that you stepped into this mess."

[jenniwren]

Podium. Go back and count how many times you said TeeJay was suspicious. How many times did you listen to him? Go back and read the entire thread yourself.

All I have here is what Orochi said and did during the night, which was to protect Sawyer. I know for certain that TeeJay is lying because of that.

[Sawyer]

Sawyer, the point of my comment was not that you were bussing TJ, but that you might have had to bus orochi. Luckily, orochi got replaced and you throw all my points out the window and hop right back on the TJ wagon.

Oh, I misinterpreted what you said. Well, I stand by what I said about your points. There's nothing to gain from them past speculation now that Orochi can't respond to them. Those points made me uncertain of my suspicion of TJ over Orochi, hence why I decided to wait and since I can't get those responses, it helped my vote land where it is now.

I am very suspicious of how sawyer jumped off and back on teejay just now... that is out of character based on my experience with him in this game. it twirks my ears even more that he cites jenn's case on TJ as a reason he is switching back to TJ... im not sure that jens case should mean that much, since she would say anything to avoid lynch.

Read above for my reasons on my I jumped off TJ. Jens case just helped me solidify my suspicion after I found out I wouldn't be getting the responses I was hoping for.

[TeeJay]

Sorry TeeJay, I know you're lying. It was a good play in claiming and naming a target, but basically you could have said anyone who was alive had been your target. It's ironic that you randomly picked the actual target. I can't believe you've made it this far, but I'm not in the game, so I got everything in pages rather than in posts. It was easier to see the entire tapestry that is your game that way. Have you counted how many times someone has brought up how suspicious they are of you (maybe not in those exact words, but in some form or fashion)? I don't know what black magic you have worked over them to convince them of your innocence, but it's good.

You should definitely vote TeeJay today for lying about being the nurse. He won't be NK'd, as Mafia don't suicide. He's led you on a merry chase, so you need to trust your instincts and eliminate the scum. And vote Gonnano tomorrow.

That was some crappy BS. It was a good play though.

Your arguments about the countless times people have been suspicious of me is irrelevant.

In a normal case it would be, but due to the fact that your role has had a highly limited amount of posting and an extreme amount of replacing, there isn't much there.

Let me put it into words that make a little more sense. This is a case against me and you. I have been highly active in this game (excluding this week) in terms of posts. Thus the amount of suspicious posts headed my way will be significantly higher than you and the people you replaced. The fact of the matter is that you got off of the hook because your role has been replaced twice and because none of your players were active, as a result, a lot less is going to be said about you.

[jenniwren]

I know what you're saying; there is no need to "put into words that make a little more sense" for me. The fact is, you're lying about being the nurse. Because I know that's a lie, as I am the nurse, then you must be scum. I can't answer for the others who had this position or how much they posted, but the fact of the matter is, for all you have posted, you are still scum. And the arguments about how suspicious everyone has been are not irrelevant. Everyone knows you are scum, though I think people are pursuing scum TELLS rather than scum INTENT. Tells can be committed by anyone; but the intent behind them is what should be examined. Your intent is obviously to get a scum win, as evidenced by your lying.

If you lynch me today, you will lose your nurse. There are three town and two scum left. This means that tonight, another town will die, and tomorrow, there will be two scum and one town. Today is LyLo, so you have to get it right today.

Podium, I know that you are suspicious of me because of the last game. However, this is a different game. In this game, I'm the nurse. Lynching me = town loss. If you lynch TeeJay, then you will be down one scum, and tomorrow will dawn with at least a chance for town to win, given whoever's alive votes the right person (Gonnano).

[gonnano]

Any thoughts, podium?

I'm still leaning towards voting jenniwren, despite her masterful employment of AtE in that last post.

[podium123456]

Podium, I know that you are suspicious of me because of the last game.

No, i'm not. All of your AtE and stating the obvious i find suspicious, however.

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Ok. It's pretty much a coin toss between jenn and TJ, as far as scumminess. So, i pull back and examine the interactions/play of gonnano and sawyer. In looking at that, i am faced with a choice between scummy actions by gonnano, and a growing gut suspicion of sawyer. I feel my best bet is to act on the actions, instead of my gut. If i'm wrong, then i'm wrong.

Besides the other little things here and there that gonnano has done, i just dont see town going after sawyer when there were more appealing choices, along with the fact that sawyer didn't really do anything scummy (besides the disputed accusation that gonnano made). I just dont see how after all that has been said and done in this game, he singles out ONE subjective action, and tries to lynch someone based off of it.

So, if gonnano is scum... that means TJ is as well.

I guess i will leave the opportunity for TJ (or gonnano) to say something before i hammer. I'll hammer tomorrow if neither speaks up.

[gonnano]

i just dont see town going after sawyer when there were more appealing choices

but scum would want to blend in with the town as much as possible, not stake out new and dangerous territory by suspecting someone who really hasn't been looked at thoroughly yet. If you recognize that there were easier choices, why do you think that I would go after Sawyer if I were scum?

along with the fact that sawyer didn't really do anything scummy

What has he done that's townie? (by the way, if TJ shows up I would like for him to answer this question as well)

I've been reading and thinking, and I've come to a decision.

Podium, before you hammer, look at TJ's overall play and the play provided by jenniwren's slot. TJ's play doesn't all make sense as town, but then again it doesn't make much sense as scum either. Keep in mind that TJ had given a V/LA announcement and had a perfect excuse to wait to claim, but chose to go first instead. Keep in mind that jenniwren's predecessors were huge lurkers.

Look at each person's play today and see which one you think is following the scum motivation here, which is to pull out all the stops and get someone lynched to end the game.

I realize that if you've convinced yourself that I am scumbuddies with TJ there's not much I can say to influence you, but if you decide to take my advice I think you'll find that jenniwren is really the better choice here.

VOTE: jenniwren

[jenniwren]

Lurking is not necessarily a scumtell.

Lying about being the nurse IS a scumtell.

TeeJay is lying. I'm the nurse, and if you lynch me, it's over.

And Podium, you did reference the other game earlier when you said I would say anything to avoid being lynched.

Anyway, that's all I can say. I voted TeeJay because I know he's lying. It's your decision now.

[TeeJay]

Dude, Podium, the game is so close to being a complete loss, to vote for me because of Gonanno and his obvious buddying attempts is aggravating.

Gonanno's actions are highly indicative of scum trying to buddy up with town. Either that or he is a really lame towns person. I cannot imagine a sane mafia member being so obvious in his interactions with another person. This coupled with the fact that he has completely ignored the cases made against Jenn. Add to this the fact that he has tunneled on Sawyer, and you got obvious scum. Yet he is not my partner but Jenns.


Jenn, all of your arguments in your last 2 posts can and will be thrown right back at you. The fact is that YOU are lying. Had I not made the dumb mistakes I did earlier in the game you would have already been lynched and we would only be left with 1 mafia member left. Nevertheless, I sit here holding my breathe for a game that is so close to being a lose for town, all at your expense.

[Sawyer]

What has he done that's townie? (by the way, if TJ shows up I would like for him to answer this question as well)

Why is this your concern? Shouldn't you be looking for scum tells, rather than town tells? But I'm fine with the question either way.

TeeJay, why did you not answer the above question when you posted?

And will TeeJay and Jen please stop the back and forth "You're lying, I'm the real Nurse", "No, you're lying, I'm the real Nurse". It doesn't help at all, since that's not gonna convince anyone.