Newbie 982 - Shadows of Death, Game Over!

[2003041]

Wll, it wasn't a full-fledged defense, but you did take heat off of GB's argument.

[EarthIntruder]

So, AVox, I'm just curious since I don't know your meta, were your walls and speculating about scumteams done to purposely confuse the town? I wanted to say something about it in-game, but I figured there wasn't any hope trying to build a case on you.

[EarthIntruder]

@EI - I was actually going to unvote you because your defences of Omnino were looking solid. But at that late stage in the game, it was too much to ask. If it'd happened earlier, you'd have been going into D3 I think :p

Daww, thanks, haha. That's what I get for taking so long to re-read the thread, I suppose.

[Guybrush]

If I were cop, I would have investigated Aurorus for sure tonight.
It would make my whole life a lot easier, just to know his alignment for sure.
I always get VT, no fun.
Oh and BTW, I'd go banana today if after a mass claim, 2003 went in and said "I'm a VT".
So thank you scum for at least saving me from that stress.

@Earth

Yeah, if only we had more time with you. You were pretty solid.

If anyone has any advice for me, I'd be thankful.
Up until this game, everyone disliked me playing too obv-vanilla. Something else?
Do you think I should drop my "THINK\KNOW" cases 100%.
I often get some crazy cases which others find irrelevant.
But still - such a crazy case could be on Hindu (and his tricks) and Aurorus (and his night time rereads).
I just think I can find scumminess in any player (even Jesus), and I don't know how to tell the difference when it's real or not.

[2003041]

GB, I think some suspicion should be kept on all players. I'm not saying that you can't give out town cards. I just think you need to have a grain of salt. I had some doubts of you maybe being scum early in D2. With your defense on me being right on the button, I gave you a town card, but still thought of the possibility that you were scum.

[AurorusVox]

So, AVox, I'm just curious since I don't know your meta, were your walls and speculating about scumteams done to purposely confuse the town? I wanted to say something about it in-game, but I figured there wasn't any hope trying to build a case on you.

No, I wasn't trying to confuse town. Big wall-o-texts are my style. However, I know that looking for scumteams is very risky, so I probably wouldn't have spent so much time on scumteams if Guybrush hadn't :p

If I were cop, I would have investigated Aurorus for sure tonight.
It would make my whole life a lot easier, just to know his alignment for sure.
I always get VT, no fun.
Oh and BTW, I'd go banana today if after a mass claim, 2003 went in and said "I'm a VT".
So thank you scum for at least saving me from that stress.

Hindu thought you would investigate him, but I

was

worried you'd investigate me :p
However, if you thought I was town, investigating someone else would have made more cop-sense. I was just happy to get "a briefcase full of town points" just as it went into night.

If anyone has any advice for me, I'd be thankful.
Up until this game, everyone disliked me playing too obv-vanilla. Something else?

Seeming cop-like worked in this game, but if there had been another cop, he might have wasted an investigation on you (because he may have thought you were softclaiming cop). I don't think it's good practice to play against your actual role.

Do you think I should drop my "THINK\KNOW" cases 100%.

No, I think it was a good point to raise, but probably not a point to base an entire case around.

I often get some crazy cases which others find irrelevant.
But still - such a crazy case could be on Hindu (and his tricks) and Aurorus (and his night time rereads).

I like different cases. People who dismiss them because they're different get on my nerves more than people who make the cases. In this game, you were right to raise them.

I just think I can find scumminess in any player (even Jesus), and I don't know how to tell the difference when it's real or not.

I'm the same. It works well when you're scum and can convince other people; but it will probably be less helpful as town.


General advice; don't get so upset when your reads turn out wrong. You tilted right - into me - but in future games, you might be looking in the wrong place. Pair reads aren't that helpful earlier on in the game. Your "saving the case on Aurorus" tactic was brilliant, and really scared me, so keep those sneaky tricks. Maybe don't clear players so easily (2k3 for example; or me) If you're scum, play exactly like this, and you'll be onto a winner :p

[2003041]

Well, I read the QT and I fully realize why I was kept alive. I actually find it funny that you guys thought I was the doc. If I was the doc, I would've protected GB night 1 and AV night 2. I thought with everything happening that AV would be killed over GB, but it doesn't matter since I was VT. (This is the point where GB gets mad at me )
Also,

Also did you know you could make your font look like it was from a typewriter?

.
Too funny man. Too funny.

[EarthIntruder]

No, I wasn't trying to confuse town. Big wall-o-texts are my style. However, I know that looking for scumteams is very risky, so I probably wouldn't have spent so much time on scumteams if Guybrush hadn't :p

Okay. Guess I just have a short attention span, then. I've just been wondering lately if walls are a frequent scum tactic or not.

[AurorusVox]

@2k3
xD I've tried to make all my QT font look like that now.

We role-blocked you both nights Though I'm touched you would have saved me over Guybrush <3

@EI
The reason I like this site over something like EpicMafia is because you can create these huge, well thought out, intricate cases and express them in a detailed manner over a period of weeks and months. I don't think it's a scumtactic, since townies do it as often as scum. That said, in my non-newbie games so far, the dialogue has been a lot quicker and sharper.

[2003041]

Though I'm touched you would have saved me over Guybrush <3

I was sure that you would be the target from your scumparing list and the way you and GB were talking, it just seemed like you were more doomed. As soon as GB was NK'ed and no town was talking, I knew that was it and just voted whatever.

[Guybrush]

@2003

I agree. I had suspicions on almost every player (and stated my concerns).
You were the only one excluded in my eyes, for all the wrong reasons.
But as I said - you can't have strong cases on people like Aurorus, so it's really difficult to build a case on them.
Even if I went with my hunch, you can't expect others to follow it, without a case.

@Aurorus

I know that you personally as scum double check absolutely everything. I noticed how long it takes you to write a simple response. (I spied you a bit.)
But I couldn't really pin it on you, since my responses take much of my time as well.

Investigating you

- Yeah, it's easy for me to say this NOW. Who knows what would happen. All I know is that I regretted the "briefcase" statement when we went into the night.

Soft-claiming cop

- As I mentioned, that was never my intention. What would you have done? If you saw a case building on a person you think is a PR? You cant' really point it out, since you would out them. And if you ignore it, the case might go far enough for a PR to claim.

Getting upset

- Hm. I'm not sure about this one. I was generally upset. And was wondering why you weren't so upset. I would maybe advise you to look more upset when you're scum. But yeah, I'm not satisfied with my play at all, I'll have to change something one day.

D2 voting suggestion

- Did you know it was a trap? It's funny that I asked both scum members that question.

Posting-style

- Do you think I should cut down the content I post? It was probably the reason of inactivity in this game. (I see you now partially answering this.)

[AurorusVox]

Lengthy Responses

- a couple of times I simply left the browser open and went off to do other things before coming back to finish my posts xD But yeah, most of the time I was checking it and making sure it sounded solidly town. Also my responses tended to be over-the-top, which is a luxury I have had to get rid of in non-newbie games ><

Investigating Me

- which is another reason why we had to kill you off that night :p

Soft-claiming cop

- no, you can't, but by striving to defend him (especially after the stuff about the pre-game chat was clarified by Haylen), it really looked like you were cop. Your defence of him wasn't really based on what he did, but on a role that he didn't actually have. This could have been very dangerous.

Getting Upset

- I think it was good playing style (and posting style), but some of the town didn't act in a way that would have enabled that playing to reap the benefits. I didn't want to appeal to emotion, because fmpov, we could say "well, we're not out yet, and Akira + someone is cert-scumteam. That means we can finish them off in D4."

D2 voting suggestion

- I took my time answering it because I knew my answer could be scummy, but I honestly didn't think "TRAP!!!"

---

Also, I realise I never answered about the deadline extension. I was telling the truth when I talked about it - I was going to ask for one, but thought it wouldn't be granted. As I said earlier, very little of what I posted was a lie. I would have played much the same if I were town.

[Guybrush]

Soft-claiming cop

- So what would you do in my place (if you thought he's a PR)? Would you just let it happen? The pre-game chat was the only thing I found which I could point out as him being town, without suggesting his power role. Hindu mentioned "eager to claim" thing, but showed it somehow in a town-context (not a PR-context). So I couldn't defend him without outing him. And I asked you guys to do a reread, in hope that you would come to the same conclusion. And I was quoting the stuff from him (wanting to claim) to make it more obvious. I doubt this would be dangerous for me BTW. I would have explained it all today, and defended it til we all drop dead. (still - his VT claim would probably send me to a mental institution, and I would probably get replaced)

[AurorusVox]

I meant dangerous in terms of, if he had been scum, you had written him off as a PR; if I had been town, I had followed you in this action because of the apparent soft-claim. 2k3 could have slipped through because of this.

But as it stands, it's a difficult situation. I would have let it lie and waited to see what happened; defended him whenever it made sense to (without appearing to buddy), and then if he had to claim, he had to claim. In this game, you would have seen he claimed VT and it would have changed your perspective. It would have frustrated you, sure, but being frustrated is probably better than misunderstanding. It made you both look suspicious (my GB/2k3 scumteam analysis) and even made 2k3 suspicious of you.

As it was, it freaked me out (as scum) but also made it obvious who to NK and RB (if you'd been doc/cop, we'd have known about it)

Btw, did anyone notice my actual soft-claiming? I breadcrumbed cop to Guybrush (did you pick up on that?) and then claimed doctor at the start of D3.

[Guybrush]

I didn't notice you soft-claiming. I only knew you thought I'm the cop, and that you basically outed me in one of your posts.

[AurorusVox]

Outed it only to you, hopefully :p

I was trying to be very careful not to say it in a way that would out your role as cop. It was hard, but I tried to phrase it so that you'd get what I meant and that others would not.

My breadcrumbing:

D

amnit, I was hoping GB wouldn't die last night.

O

n the other hand, I'm now 99% certain he was on the button with his suspicion in #604.

C

alling out Mastermind and then dying, certainly makes Mastermind look suspect.

T

hough it could be a frame, it also makes sense from scumMastermind (and/or his partner) to save his own skin (with GB around, that was pretty much one more vote Mastermind would have gotten today).

O

n top of that, Mastermind was one of my top suspects yesterday anyway, and he fits with a theperson OR a hinduragi scumteam.

R

ight now I'm leaning more theperson due to Hindu voting for Mastermind all day yesterday, but I'd like to see more interaction from theperson before making up my mind.

The plan was that if need be, Hindu would claim cop. I would claim doctor and say I had protected you - thus, there was a roleblocker, thus if there was only one cop claim, he was legitimate.

---

As soon as GB was NK'ed and no town was talking, I knew that was it and just voted whatever.

You could have not voted and waited for them to be replaced. And your vote-post made it sound like you thought Akira was scum. So don't say it was "just because you got bored" ><"

[Guybrush]

Oh cool. Didn't see that. XD I like it.

Here's the quote where you made it obvious that you think I'm a cop:

If I'm right about you, if my reason is correct, then at least one of them has to be scum.

There were 7 of us. Minus omnino. Minus you. Minus me. Leaving you with 4 people. You can't have that conclusion unless if my innocence indicates 2003's innocence. Meaning - I'm the cop. But I had no idea what others think, even though it was obvious. Then again, I wasn't sure why they don't think 2003 is a PR either.

BTW, is the mass role claim expected in this scenario, when there's 2 scum left? I never reached LyLo.

[AurorusVox]

RE: Massclaim - I'm not sure, I've never been a part of a massclaim either. It's why I didn't suggest it, cos I really didn't know.

RE: Sofclaim - yeah, I tried to hint it a couple times, because I thought you'd suspect me less if my lack-of-suspicion of you had a reasonable explanation. At one point I said '

A

w,

c

ome

o

n,

p

lease' when we were talking about my read of you and other such stuff.

About reading 2k3 as PR; if I'd been town, I maybe wouldn't have gone after 2k3 so much D2. I wouldn't have vocally "cleared" him, but I'd have let a lot of what he did slide. On the other hand, he was scummyscummy in a number of places. (I'll give you more detailed feedback when I get the chance to do everyone )

[2003041]

I do understand my scumminess. I have a hard time with good logic, but I think I've learned. And like I said, this game just seemed like it was dying, even with the mod (no offense to Hayl- She's a great mod), so I just wanted to get the day over with, whether it was a mislynch or a scum hit.

[Guybrush]

I don't like that 2003. You should have let others discuss it then. (since one wrong vote is enough) You could have asked for a replacement if you didn't want to play anymore. It's a bit unfair to others.
I'm not even sure why mastermind haven't been replaced. I guess he responded to his prod.

[AurorusVox]

@GB: 2k3 thought Akira/mastermind was scum. He's saying now that he just wanted the game to end, but if you look at his vote, he says "I really think that this is the right decision." Maybe trying to save face? >_<"

@2k3, Though this game did suffer a bit due to the amount of replacements needed, and the fact that some of the replacements didn't come as early as they could have, you have to learn to make the best of it. D3 could have lasted three weeks, so what difference would a couple more days have made if you'd waited for the replacements to come? And as GB said, you could have asked to be replaced yourself.

[Hinduragi]

FINALLY. God, I hate playing as scum but I do it for the love of the game.(Ironically, I get scum roles more than town) Having to lie that much and repress the town advice I like to give out is what really kills me. On the other hand, the one reason I like to play as scum is the confusion I get to cause. Anyways, I'm glad I can finally be honest about some things.

@Hindu
Were any of my accusations true? Were you using psychological tricks, or is that the way you approach people? And what about Akira - did you know or didn't you? And your counter-trap and all that? Were you lying or not?

Accusations? Im not sure what you mean. If you mean against Akira, etc. then that's an obvious no. Like I said, I NEVER use psychological tricks in my replacement post. That's my original playstyle coming in and my thoughts.(Well, scummy thoughts) I don't like that much WIFOM but, like I said, I guess it creates WIFOM even if I don't use psychological tricks. I didn't know about Akira, either. I saw he got replaced and was like "Awww, shit. I'm going to get scum points for this" then I posted "Lame, he got replaced." The counter-trap was just me fuckin' with you. I used your knowledge of my psychological knowledge to my advantage and lied because I was pretty sure I was going to get more scum points unless I made up something like the counter-trap.

Gb:

Spoiler: GB-Stuff. Yes this actually gets its own spoiler because this page is literally haunted by Wall-o-text's.

You were by far a key player for the town. You kept the cases going and almost went for a lynch on me. However, the rest of the town couldn't defend themselves or scumhunt due to the activity issues. Outing 2k3 as town was something I thought was very pro-town. (I've played with new people enough to tell their scum sides apart from their town selves) I didn't kill 2k3 because I was pretty sure since he was active he'd place a vote on the first bandwagon he saw. I thought he wouldn't consider every risk involved with voting someone at LYLO. I was hoping for this situation ever since I saw your death went through. Advice for you? I liked your hunting but felt you were wall-o-texting alot. Maybe it was just the fact it was D2. Usually just a paragraph is enough to sum up an entire case.(This is usually how I like to roll unless I'm defending myself or ISO'ing) The main thing I don't think you should continue is the town points. Sure, give me scum points, but never give me town points when presenting a case. You can do give me town points in your head, but keeping the pressure on is KEY. Absolutely necessary. When you gave me town points and said you were going for a omnino lynch today, I just instantly knew what I had to do to survive the day and make it to LYLO. The pairs thing was very distracting, even for me as scum. I wanted to tell you that you should've waited until a new day started or until twilight to post that. Think/Know cases are your choice. I don't think they're really that bad but I'm not sure about how effective they are either. As for finding scumminess, well, I read past games(Ones I wasn't a part of) to see others' scumminess and I use my gut reads of reading through the game to judge who's scum.(Don't read the first post with alive/dead players) At times, I only get one scum read. This method lets me learn town play and scum play. So far, I've only done one re-read with a third party. He got policy lynched D1, though, so that's too bad for me and my rereads, lol. I'd only suggest doing this if you've got time.

2k3: I'm pretty disappointed with you. I had hopes you'd place a vote like that. (Hence my lurking during D3. I was here the entire time waiting for a vote to see if I could get one) If you hadn't placed that vote, I would've suggested a massclaim.(Yes, that is the normal LYLO protocol btw) Anyways, I highly disliked your reasons for voting. I thought you would've voted out of thinking he's scum. But when you say that you did it because of the game activity, that is disappointing to hear. You should've replaced out if it was bothering you that much instead of losing the game for every townie who has died up to now =/

Rest of the town(Seth/Michel Excluded): Participate more. When I say activity killed all of town's hopes in a raging inferno, I mean it. D2, us scum controlled most of the discussion that was going on. 2 townies participated for the most of the discussion but they didn't have any means of knowing we were scum lying to them and throwing them off our tracks.

Also, check it out, guys. We just broke the record for shortest day in a newbie game.(In our Day 3)

[Hinduragi]

Also, your D2 voting suggestion was painfully obvious. No offense. Notice that we both indirectly avoided answering whether it was obvious or not.

[AurorusVox]

Player by player comments.

I don't mean these to sound patronising or condescending, and I'm hardly a great player, so feel free to ignore what I say. But here's what I made of everyone, from someone's perspective who knew you were town, and exploited you anyway.

2k3
You were pretty scummy man. OMGUS votes aside, some of your play looked like sneaky scum play, and could have been construed as such if Hindu or I had wanted to pursue your mislynch. I think you've learnt from it though, so I'd be interested to see your next game, and see if you've improved at all. Trying WIFOM probably isn't the best strategy for you at the moment - just be honest about what you want to say and do, and consider other peoples' arguments. Read them carefully, especially when they're concerning you. For example: you thought my initial vote on you was unjustified - but almost everyone in the game thought it was justified. Accept that some of what you do will be scummy, and try to keep those things out of your play - especially if you're scum! You won't always have someone like Guybrush to keep the heat off.

Akira
It's a shame you got replaced, as I don't think you'd have been such an easy target had you stayed in the game. Your D1 was very hard to get a solid read on you, which might be good if you're scum, but also is bad because people think something's up with that. I think your defence game is stronger than your offence (in this game); I honestly did have to keep giving you town points for responding well to my pressure. The hammer wasn't scummy, btw, but some of your flipfloppy voting was. Don't be afraid to vote for who you want, even if it is the hammer vote. Town aren't afraid of the spotlight that a hammer vote brings.

EarthIntruder
I think if you'd had more time, you would have avoided being lynched. If I was townie, I probably would have unvoted you. Didn't get to see much, but what I saw was solid.

Guybrush
I had great fun playing against you. You were a great opponent to bounce arguments around with. If you were scum, I would be scared. I've said a lot to you already so I'll leave it there, lol.

Hinduragi
My replacement scumbuddy! You made a lot of noise when you appeared, which frightened me, and some of your answers did give GB a base to build a case from. But I think you handled it well, and managed to manoeuvre around some of GB's questions quite athletically. You showed integrity by keeping your vote on Akira throughout D2, and I was glad you didn't BW with Guybrush (since it let me do that lol). There were some things that you said which I would have pressured you for if I'd been town. I'm looking forward to our DEFCON game!

LoakaMossi
I really liked the part where you nailed scum by your third post (no joke: "I don't know what to make of the arguements here, other than it looks like AurorusVox was using me as a distraction.") It's a shame you didn't come back to follow up on it.

Mastermind
Did you ever really suspect Guybrush? I felt your cases and answers were weak, which gave me (and Hindu) a lot to play with when it came to organising mislynches. I'm disappointed you disappeared, because it let us finish the game off pretty quickly. Next time, try to answer all the questions people have and if people think your cases are weak...maybe look for something stronger to attack them with ^^

MichelSableheart
I'd have loved to see more from you (lol just kidding, we NK'd you N1 because we feared you >_>) Your cases and decisions were strong and though we considered leading a mislynch on you D2, we thought you'd have shaken it off. Two players found your play suspicious, and the biggest thing I saw was that you were sometimes inconsistent - and downplayed the validity of inconsistency as a scumtell. But I guess you proved that it wasn't a scumtell because all those inconsistent people...were town xD Sorry for killing you so early <3

omnino
You played a solid game, and much of what I found to legitimise my vote on you I had to search for because it wasn't immediately apparent. It's a shame you got replaced, because again, I think the game may have ended up differently. Maybe in the future try to interact more with every player, because your lack of pressure on Akira and Hindu made you look scummy in relation to them. The end-of-D1 play looked a little iffy because you were trying to disappear when it came to voting for someone - which can be a scumtell. Be confident in your reads and vote with them. The last minute switch to Michel also came at an inopportune moment - unless you're in fear of getting immediately lynched or NK'd, you could have probably saved that til the next day.

ooBAZZoo
My first scumbuddy! I thought you played damned well, you kept suspicion away and Michel thought your vote on Zauper was one of the only honest ones there was (*snigger*). I didn't really see much scummy in you, so maybe the others can comment more

seth
Oh dear, seth, poor seth. If I was town, I'd have dealt with you exactly the same. You can't just replace in and start swearing at people. You can't threaten self-voting. You made a splash, and the resulting tsunami brought votes galore with it. Almost everyone in the game wanted to vote for you. Though you weren't scum, you were anti-town, and you deserved to be lynched D1. It wasn't "correct" but it was "right." To make matters worse, you had a read on me as being scum, but no one paid attention to it because you had been so aggressive and anti-town. In the future, feel free to be aggressive as you like, but make sure you're valuing and answering questions, and that you treat other players with the respect they deserve. If you're polite whilst being aggressive, you won't get lynched so hard.

theperson
I thought you played well, and you dealt with much of the zauper suspicion in D1, but you shouldn't have claimed (it helped us narrow PRs, as I told you it would in the thread lol) and you shouldn't have "taken the lazy way out." If you'd been around D2, the suspicion would have remained on Hindu and Akira, rather than being split to you too. I buddied up to you, which was made easier because you weren't here to question me. As with most people, I think if you'd been more active, town would have stood a better chance.

Valkyrie_Hrist
You were another person who was hard to get a solid read on, and a couple things you did looked scummy, but I also saw the town defence to them (I think Michel accused me of being your partner due to this). If you have townie intentions, you should be able to convey this. Your slot's lynch became more certain after you left.

Zauper
I thought you played a decent enough game but you generated a lot of suspicion due to your reliance on other peoples' arguments. In the future, if people accuse you of this, go out of your way to ISO other players and build your own, completely new, argument. Surprisingly, though Michel thought the BW on you had scummy, or opportunistic, intentions, the intentions he had a problem with all came from town. Good luck in future games, though!

[Hinduragi]

AV: Just to clarify, I make noise on purpose. I tried your style of doing things, never leaving myself open to any accusations. I got lynched D1 my first game because, apparently, that's a scumtell and someone used it as a reason and everyone else agreed. Ever since then, I ditched that and went with instinct and gut on how I should play a game. I'll make noise, scum or town, in any of my games. If I didn't, I'd be outed as scum too easily. I'm probably a lot more reckless as town than scum, though.