Mini #1007 (Game Over)

[gonnano]

why is VRK probably town? I'm fine with saying that people Zach voted for/pressured are probably town, but why the person that he had a "town vibe" on?

where does KKN fit in all this?

[Hoopla]

He can be after you, then. He's town, though.

[gonnano]

am I to assume that VRK is town based on his willingness to lynch himself?

[Hoopla]

It's far more of a town tell than a scum tell. Plus, he's already claimed VT anyway. I'll be open to discussing him again once we finish the massclaim.

[Kid Know Nothing]

I have access again.

I'm fine with this mass-claim. Why is it taking so long?

[Hoopla]

Because gonnano is playing the role of Staller McStallerson.

[gonnano]

It looks as though no one is considering anything but the massclaim, so I'll go ahead and claim now.

I am a Lover, paired up with G&H. This is why I didn't want to lynch him back in D1. Not that I was against lynching him, but you can understand why I would want to be reasonably sure that he was scum before we both got taken out of the game. It's also why I was against the massclaim.

I considered claiming Vanilla Townie, because first of all I know how it must look to claim to be partnered with a player that won't claim, and secondly because I believed G&H to be town and didn't want to get both of us nightkilled. I decided against that because
A. a town lover pair will alter the balance pretty significantly, and isn't the kind of information that I would want to leave out when considering the likelihood of having certain power roles
B. the claim might help explain some of my actions
C. If I claimed VT and then later needed to claim Lover I would pretty much be up the creek

I hope that G&H will confirm this, because it doesn't reveal his alignment and I assume that if I were lying about what his role is he wouldn't be prevented by his playstyle from telling everyone that I'm lying. Also, this stood out to me and I hope it means what I think it means:

I have to say it - I don't plan to NEVER reveal my role. In fact, I can think of special situations when I'll do it.

Then again, maybe I've said all this just to find out that this is another one of those things that G&H doesn't feel like answering.

[gonnano]

I'd like to see Hoopla's claim next, if that's alright with everyone.

[Hoopla]

Oh my god, if this is a scum fakeclaim, this is genius. A couple of questions;

Does your role PM say anything about each other's alignment?
Do you guys have day/night talk? If so, what sort of things have you discussed?

Then again, maybe I've said all this just to find out that this is another one of those things that G&H doesn't feel like answering.

Really hate this line - looks like you're giving yourself wriggle-room if things backfire. Confirm this is your actual role now and you're not doing this.

[Hoopla]

Oh wait, I might have read that quote wrong.

[gonnano]

I've told you everything I know already. No alignment hints, no separate chat, just a liability.

However, upon receiving my role I looked up a few games that contained lover pairs, and I gained the impression that scum-town pairs are actually relatively uncommon compared to same side pairs (in spite of what the wiki says about the "classic Lover pair"). This further strengthens my belief that G&H is town.

[Hoopla]

I've told you everything I know already. No alignment hints, no separate chat, just a liability.

However, upon receiving my role I looked up a few games that contained lover pairs, and I gained the impression that scum-town pairs are actually relatively uncommon compared to same side pairs (in spite of what the wiki says about the "classic Lover pair"). This further strengthens my belief that G&H is town.

Strange that you don't have any nighttalking abilities - most lover pairs I've seen usually have that benefit, same with neighbours, masons and any other linked role.

Show me the games you 'looked up' please.

[gonnano]

I don't remember the games, just the conclusion that I made... sorry, it wasn't an in-depth study by any means, and I was doing it for my own benefit so I didn't bother to record information so that other people could check after me.

[Hoopla]

I don't remember the games, just the conclusion that I made... sorry, it wasn't an in-depth study by any means, and I was doing it for my own benefit so I didn't bother to record information so that other people could check after me.

Off the top of my head, I don't remember ANY Mini Normal games that featured a Lover pair, let alone what alignments they were. A brief search tells me there definitely haven't been any since Mini 845 (the earliest game carried over before going into the archive). They're a core mechanic in a couple of regularly run open set-ups in Central Park, but other than that, they are generally restricted to Theme games.

I don't remember any Lover pair that weren't allowed to talk either. I think your claim is bogus, or on the outside chance it's true, is a 1-scum-1-town combination. I'd love G&H to come in and confirm this - hopefully this is one of the fabled ~*spEcIaL*~ times where he deviates from his playstyle of saying nothing.

Town/town lover pair is definitely an anti-town combination because it basically gives scum a double-kill at some point in the game for no town gain, and with 3:9's already steeply favouring scum, I'd be very scared if this is actually what is happening here. Considering a 2:10 set-up (or anything with an SK) is a real outside chance at this point, so I think I'm justified in limiting our scope to the realm of 3:9's. I

really

don't see a town/town lover pair in this game.

[gonnano]

You may be right... I'll look again

[gonnano]

I remember that it was a pain in the butt to find a game with lovers in it before, and I don't see any now. I probably got tired before and went to any game that I could find regardless of whether it was a mini or a normal, just looking for lover pairs. What I can tell you is that I found maybe one lover pair after a night of searching that was town-scum.

I realize that it's a detrimental setup for town if G&H and I are both town, but I was figuring that it could be balanced out somehow. Game balance isn't exactly my strong suit, so I was just going by what I saw that night and if it turns out that G&H is likely to be scum I will vote for him (or myself, makes no difference).

[Hoopla]

I remember that it was a pain in the butt to find a game with lovers in it before, and I don't see any now. I probably got tired before and went to any game that I could find regardless of whether it was a mini or a normal, just looking for lover pairs. What I can tell you is that I found maybe one lover pair after a night of searching that was town-scum.

I'm 90% sure there haven't been lovers in a closed Mini Normal game ever, out of the ~360 or so we've had. I also find it frightfully alarming you set aside a night of searching for these roles, and then a) don't remember the games and b) can't find them again now. Your claim is bogus, sorry.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: gonnano

Also, I'm going to claim after CA now, because scum telling me to claim next isn't going to fly for me. So, ConfidAnon better here soon.

[AlmasterGM]

I like this so much.

Because if it's a lie, we lynch scum.

And if it's the truth, Good and Honest goes BYE BYE BYE.

OH BABY, THERE HAS NEVER BEEN A MORE WIN-WIN SITUATION THAN THIS.

After all, even though gonnano is going to flip mafia ('cause even if the claim isn't LULZ, the "I looked it up but whoops I can't find it" part definitely is. Shame you had to blow that perfect fakeclaim RITE?), but the real scum here is G&H. He needs to be flushed down the toilet and never be seen again.

Unvote. Vote: gonnano

[Hoopla]

I like this so much.

Because if it's a lie, we lynch scum.

And if it's the truth, Good and Honest goes BYE BYE BYE.

Even if gonnano is truthful about being lovers together, there is still a chance of lynching scum, as a town/scum combination is just as likely as a town/town combination. But even then, that kettle of fish feels a lot less likely than gonnano's claim being fake. See, this is what massclaims are good for.

[gonnano]

I searched for lover pairs about

a month and a half ago

, and went through tons of games skimming the first post to look for lover pairs. Most of the games that I found didn't even have a lover pair in them, just the word "lover" or "lovers" somewhere. So no, I don't remember the names of any of those games and apparently there were no mini normals among them. It took me forever to find one game with a lover pair in it before, and I'm not interested in doing it again just to prove that G&H might be town.

[Hoopla]

Did you use the search function, or did you manually skim through games? Do you remember checking specific forums? Do you remember checking the archive? You obviously must have ventured out of Little Italy.

[gonnano]

I didn't check the archive. I searched for lover* and checked each individual game that I found for a lover pair by looking at the first post. I don't remember where I searched specifically, but I doubt that I would have looked at any open setups.

I don't see what you people are so excited about. It seems like "OMG he can't remember the game he read the first post of a month ago, he must be scum!!!"

[Hoopla]

Yes, I did that search too, and it doesn't give you a super exhaustive list - it gives you a series of open set-ups, theme games and a few false results where 'lover' has been used in a different context. It's certainly nowhere near extensive.

I don't see what you people are so excited about. It seems like "OMG he can't remember the game he read the first post of a month ago, he must be scum!!!"

This isn't the crux of the issue, but it certainly is telling enough to be an additional point in the case. Couple that with the strange ruling of not being able to nighttalk, despite being a linked role and it starts getting weirder. Then think, of all those Mini Normal games out there that have been run without a pair of lovers, you fortuitously land the role for the first time, and not only that - here's the kicker - you get paired with the one player who can't confirm or deny your claim. It's just such a statistical unlikelihood, and I'd be willing to lynch on that alone, even without the scummy extras you've provided us.

[gonnano]

Lucky me. I thought that the role of a Lover was essentially a Sibling with no benefits, so I wasn't surprised at not being able to nighttalk. I'm still not sure if it isn't just some way to make up for an overpowered town or underpowered scum.

Out of curiosity, what would the balance effect be of a town-scum lover pair? Off the top of my head it still seems slightly pro-scum.

[Hoopla]

Lucky me. I thought that the role of a Lover was essentially a Sibling with no benefits, so I wasn't surprised at not being able to nighttalk. I'm still not sure if it isn't just some way to make up for an overpowered town or underpowered scum.

Out of curiosity, what would the balance effect be of a town-scum lover pair? Off the top of my head it still seems slightly pro-scum.

Not sure - feels about even. I've never encountered them in Mini's, so I've not really thought about their effects too much. Being linked with a townie increases that scum's chance of being lynched or killed via the lynch, so it might be a town benefit. Losing one for one is usually a good result for town.