Mini 1040 - Everyone's A Critic! [Game Over]

[Jack]

I have very good reason to believe there are only two scum...gives us a bit more leeway.

[Jack]

Haschel's new avatar fits his title so much better.

vote:xscorpion

[Jack]

That subject change was pretty scummy.

[Jack]

Scorpion, vote yourself please, I want to see something.

[Jack]

Are you scum?

Am I hiding? Doesn't look like it to me.

That's not...that's not what he...

Scorpion, vote yourself please, I want to see something.

Too bad.

Don't be a spoilsport

unvote, vote:jack

ok?

[Jack]

I don't see wrong as scummy here

[Jack]

right isn't not scummy either, myk did you really find stef suspicious?

[Jack]

He is arguing I'm wrong, not that I'm scum.

This is what human reason evolved to do:

Short abstract (95 words).
Reasoning is generally seen as a mean to improve knowledge and make better decisions. Much
evidence, however, shows that reasoning often leads to epistemic distortions and poor decisions.
This suggests rethinking the function of reasoning. Our hypothesis is that the function of reasoning is
argumentative. It is to devise and evaluate arguments intended to persuade. Reasoning so conceived
is adaptive given human exceptional dependence on communication and vulnerability to
misinformation. A wide range of evidence in the psychology or reasoning and decision making can be
reinterpreted and better explained in the light of this hypothesis.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=w ... NQ&cad=rja

[Jack]

In the initial post he said you were trying to set up false townie confirmations. That would make you scum, wouldn't it? And he says he's fos'ing scorp, but that you are bigger fish, aka a bigger FOS.

[Jack]

Scum:
XScorpion
Antihero

I think I get why you put XScorp there, but why Antihero?

Why did he put xscorp on there, I can't tell.

Vote: MagnaofIllusion

for being the last to make a post.

He's v/la on weekends I tihnk.

[Jack]

Scorp you still happy with your vote on stef?

[Jack]

Scorp you still happy with your vote on stef?

He's not giving any reason for voting me, so yeah I like my vote.

Yeah but you hadn't really been giving any reason for voting him. Works both ways.

[Jack]

Jack: Why would you think the town needs more leeway as to nerf down the mafia to two scum?

It doesn't matter at the moment.

[Jack]

It means

something

, but it's a weird list, why is danakillsu in the town list?

[Jack]

Scum may NOT pass the Vigilante Ability to their partners. This is not a change in the setup or mechanic, it has been in effect since the beginning, but I missed it in the Special Section. My apologies.

Oh very interesting. I will have to rethink that stef/myk debate now.

hmm.

No, it doesn't make a difference, scum still can't possess it to start. Because if they did they would pass it to a townie and kill that townie...well the rule is a bit confusing, but there is still no way scum started with it.

[Jack]

I feel like keeping my cards close to my chest for a while, experimental thing.

@dana: has red done anything else scummy?

[Jack]

I guess Red has also discounted a bit too much of what everyone else has to say without bringing out a lot of his own comments on the state of the game, but that's about it for his one bigish post.

What about his vote on MoI and the reasoning there?

[Jack]

@ Jack
It was an RVS vote. Who cares?

I do can you compare it to his vote on you?

[Jack]

Sometimes it's best to just set aside your suspect for a few days and let the game develop, it seems that way to me anyway.

[Jack]

EBWOP:

Sometimes it's best to just set aside your suspect for a few days and let the game develop, it seems that way to me anyway.

This quote is hilarious after the White Flag Mafia fiasco.

I was in no such game.

[Jack]

What if the vig shots are wrong though?

The the logic there was wonky, I couldn't make head nor tail out of it.

[Jack]

I'm very happy with this game so far, I have three good town reads and three slight scum reads, I don't believe tying yourself into a mental framework is epistemically sound, and that makes it anti-town not pro-town, furthermore a mix of approaches from the town leads to the best results and everyone is different in how they work well, ergo, concordantly, vis a vis...

[Jack]

Then freaking unvote and vote one of them! I'm tired of asking.

Then don't ask--it's an MD debate as to whether it's a good strategy or not. Did you read the article I posted?

I feel like I have a good grip on this game, but things are still developing. I'm very content to watch them develop.

[Jack]

I'll say later.

[Jack]

imaginality only has 1 post on site since the the 27th (the one in this game).

[Jack]

There is obvious other, but saying the name wouldn't fit with my intensely aggravating play style.

[Jack]

imaginalities? Go to his profile and search recent posts.

[Jack]

jelly, imagine, david...I guess this game is going to go at a slow pace.

[Jack]

fun david. I sure hope it isn't disappointing (wouldn't be too good for your ingame health) but with almost 2 pages of post from me, you shouldn't have any trouble.

But do me a favor, and when you present a tell, reason why it makes me scum (as in, "scum would do this, because ..."). It makes both our lives easier, and means that we can done with this earlier (or you are right and we lynch me, or your wrong and it shows much earlier)

Townies should never argue with their scum suspects about why they are scum. Scum hunting is very "sensitive" for lack of a better word, very touch-feely, people don't even agree on the basic tells, let alone the application of them. Any scum who puts in the effort will avoid committing an "obvious" tell on day 1. Good cases often come down to "here he knew so and so was town, but wanted to stay on the wagon" where "knew" and "wanted" are intuited from the post of the scum. Making cases is about sharing with other townies, scum don't get to play.

In other news, I have town reads on 5 (maybe 6) players and scum reads on 3. Feeling very good about 2 of the scum. Still 2 or 3 people I'm unsure about though.

[Jack]

@Jack. If I;m town and David is, I'd rather have David make a very good case about me, which I can then defend in one post and then let people decide if they lynch me or not. If I;m town, my defense should be easy enough, and then we can continue again with the real scum as a target.

What game do you play where arguing (as town) with someone who thinks you are scum easily convinces them? Often they just tunnel. Scum don't mind because all they want to do is trash the argument so that no one else follows it. He had already dropped it so I'm making a broader point. On the whole it's much more likely to be scum friendly.

(5 or 6)+3+(3 or 2) = 9

What is this

6+3+2 = 11
5+3+3 = 11

[Jack]

When I feel I have a good enough lock on the third scum I will post my reads, and choose a town seeming player (if there is one interested) to debate them with. If anyone disagrees with this strategy they can explain why the conclusions about attitude polarization that the researchers came up with are incorrect :smug:

[Jack]

I've lost track of this game a bit over the last page or so, may take me a bit to get back in the flow of things.

[Jack]

I apologize, I was very into this game for a while but various things have drawn my interest elsewhere. It appears I will be lobbing my opinion in from the sidelines rather than making substantial cases like I intended.

Claim: Unrequited best friend

Like a one-way mason. I know that Stef is innocent but he knows nothing about me. A wagon on him was ideal from my perspective as it allows a much better read of the game.

vote:mykonian

Useless and unpersuasive gut scum read, etc.

Antihero is another of my picks for scum.

I had concerns about jelly but the miller claim seems to have softened those.

I know that xscorpion was my third scum pick, but unfortunately I don't remember why I had a scum read on him and a town read on dana a few days ago, I will stick with that though.

[Jack]

I'm sure you'll understand if I don't unvote Stef right away.

No I won't, the cases on him have been terrible.

Can you elaborate on why Antihero is scum?

It's not important.

[Jack]

Remind me to make a post sometime about the principle of charity and how it applies to mafia.

(apropos of nothing)

[Jack]

Not feeling like mafia at the moment, bear with me, it comes and goes.

dana is a bad lynch.

Mykonian should be the lynch, antihero 2nd choice.

[Jack]

The game has to be viewed as a whole.

[Jack]

ok.

In general, there isn't much you can definitively point at in mafia to say is scummy. There are a number of "agreed upon" things, and many that aren't. Some that only one person knows about only one other person. Even those things come down to making the judgement, based on the persons post, that they were doing it in a scummy way. So cases aren't as important as people say (often I just read for tone and ignore the reasoning). mykonian is an overall read that he's scum looking for a target rather than town looking for a lynch, do you guys want a smoking gun, well that's nice.

Antihero did the same thing, I think I can quote it though. And you guys will probably go for him because he's only got 15 posts and myk has been "protown"

True, if anything is suspicious on Stef's part here, it would be trying to start a distracting, stupid theory debate. Preview Edit: Stef backed off, never mind.

Speaking of distracting, stupid theory debates:

doesn't find stef scummy at all, just thinks it's distracting

So, how's the rolefishing going?

What does antihero think about this? Why does town-antihero make this simple comment and not follow up? SCum often jump on a standard scumtell when they are faking it, it doesn't require any acting.

His ISO 6 is scum deciding to get on the wagon. Then he sits on it and disappears.

Also, I'm pretty unsure as to why Stef being town would imply mykonian scum. I don't think the case on Stef was weak.

I also find this quote interesting but that's back to mykonian

[Jack]

mykonian scum meta for anyone interested:

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 56&t=13270

[Jack]

quote from mykonian mafia qt:

All their accusations, reason about them. As long as you have had well reasoned votes, this should be no problem. If you made a mistake, admit it was a mistake (don't do this too often, but townies make mistakes, and arguing for something that is clearly wrong is going to hurt you more: better end the subject). You probably won't make a lot of those mistakes if you check your posts, and reason your votes well. I would be surprised if it happened once.

[Jack]

You don't even have a case.

don't panic too much. Phate. It takes quite some time to get me lynched here. As long as I can keep CSL satisfied with bandwagons to hop on, fishy doesn't get replaced, I should be fine. There are a lot of people putting me in their lists, but the reason that there hasn't been a serious wagon against me the last day, is because there is simply no case.

[Jack]

No. I'm not letting you manipulate me. You want to twist what you've done to make it look better, but in the end you have shown that your "reads" on people are purely tactical.

Precisely.

So, can someone clear up the whole game issue that jack is saying he wasn't in and Haschel is saying he was in where Jack had the same role?

I was a VT in that game. That game also had the "unrequited best friend role (redcoyote had it).

[Jack]

Jack this game:
Posts: 42/391 = 10.74%

Jack as lurking scum (vanillaside):
Posts:17/749 = 2.27%


My play this game is my town meta, check physics mafia. Difference is I held back my opinion for a while instead of vote hopping.

bonus:

Yeah I think

hero

-exe-

kdub

is most likely.

5.

Kdub

, The Higgs Boson;

Mafia Roleblocker

, lynched Day 1
2. Exe Nightwolf, Werner Heisenberg, Quantum Theorist (Tracker/Watcher), Killed Night 1 (vigged by ythill)
3. Jack, Wave Theory, Vanilla Townie, Killed Night 1
1.

Herodotus

, Sir Issac Newton,

Mafia Godfather

, lynched Day 3

[Jack]

Not applicable here. Fishy pronounced I was town there, and CSL proved to be an extra vote now and then. Noone follows me here, or has pronounced I'm certain town.

What is not applicable? I was referencing the smirking-scum "there is no case" tone, which is the same. It's one part of your play, and fits with the theme. I recognize your style very well. It's a big red flag, one of the most underrated (or unknown) scumtells.

[Jack]

xscorpion has 89 posts in other games since his last post in this one

[Jack]

drmyshotty has 34

[Jack]

antihero 23

[Jack]

I do not think mykonian is scum because of meta. Neither does lmp.

[Jack]

No. I'm not letting you manipulate me. You want to twist what you've done to make it look better, but in the end you have shown that your "reads" on people are purely tactical.

Precisely.

[Jack]

bumping redcoyote up to third scum (unexpecedly!). Under my radar so far but that last set of posts sets bells of, and an ISO read all but confirms my suspicions. There is no real belief behind his posts.

Him saying several times that he wanted me to post etc, and then evidently skim reading them was the red flag for me.

I would go so far as to say Magna is the most pro-town person in this game. Does everyone agree with me? Yes/No and why?

I think this is probably a pretty fair conclusion. Either MoI or HC. I also like LynchMePls a lot.

Most of the players need to give us more (XScorp, Antihero, David, MoI, HC, imaginality's replacement...)

but I just do not see mykonian as scum.

I really don't see Antihero either. I mean, unless your gut's pinging them or something, they both seem townie to me.

and not everyone who ignores you (Jack, XScorp, Antihero) is town.

Who is scum from this list? This quote fits in with the above selection as well.

********


There are a bunch of delicious private scumtells in your ISO red

[Jack]

Those lists are mostly all separate things, each in their own context.

EXACTLY

Your reads change bounce around each time you post because they aren't reflecting genuine beliefs about the game, just what you are pretending are beliefs.

In 336 MoI and HC need to give us more, in 407 they are the most protown players in the game.

In 348 mykonian and antihero seem townie and you dismiss suspicion on them, in 407 neither are on the protown list. And in 328 antihero was on a scum type list.


In 348 antihero is townie, in this very post he's one of those who are just sliding by, along with your current vote:

XScorp, Antihero, David, and you (prior to this recent surge) are kind of just trying to get by with as little involvement in the game as possible.

Also:

Although your private scumtells are off, you are perceptive about one thing. I kind of

dreaded having to make a new post in this game

.

That's a scumtell even if it is by your own admission.

Your reason for voting david is:

I'm still having trouble with his explanation about that silly Town/Scum list he posted earlier. I thought his joke was cute, but I still don't really understand the motivations behind the Antihero positioning.

But your follow up is like you forgot that and came up with a whole new reason:

I'd like David. He's been sneaking around, his alliances and scumreads are all over the place, and he's absent when we need him most. I just feel like he's faking his scumhunting more than anyone else here (with the exception possibly of dr.shotty, but that's a different thing).

ALSO...what scumhunting is david faking?? He isn't really scumhunting. I find it very hard to believe that redcoyote finds david scummy for these reasons.

[Jack]

Red has passed up even mykonian

unvote, vote:RedCoyote

[Jack]

fos:lynchmepls

Dropping anti-hero.

That combo of "oh hey look I just decided to do an ISO, l-1" and myk being in a terrible hurry to hammer is just so bad. There was lots of stuff happening in this game.

Jelly jiggler was scum too and the miller claim is weird in this game.

[Jack]

Good job nopoint for picking up my spot, well played

Jack and Shotty both definitely shot the town in the foot. After I saw Jack fakeclaim with a best friend on my scumbuddy, there was much lols. Hard to lose after that.

I figured haschel and red would know it was fake. Haschel did anyway.

But you and antihero's bussing threw me off on that.

Can't say my claim caused the town loss. Probably had the best read on the game at the point I claimed.

[Jack]

I had picked out xscorp and antihero due partly to their scummy cases on stef, shifting the wagon off him was the correct move given what I'd seen.

[Jack]

I had picked out xscorp and antihero due partly to their scummy cases on stef, shifting the wagon off him was the correct move given what I'd seen.

And you voted me because my case was scummy too, I assume. Even looking at it afterwards, I have really mentioned fairly accurate scumtells I found on Stef. And if we look at the following votecounts, we see a bandwagon on Dana, Me, David. But not scorp or antihero which you now name happily.

Basically, from the point where you thought you should shake up the game with a fakeclaim town lost all its direction. And now afterwards you try to justify it by saying you suspected scorp and antihero.

Next time, don't think too much. Just lynch scum.

I'm just discussing a theory point not playing the blame game

I said the scumteam was myk-antihero-xscorp in my claim post.

[Jack]

davidp was clearly town and his claim was was clearly town...scum can think of a fake claim easy!

That rush to end the day confused me greatly.