Mini #1004 - Popularity Mafia (Over)

[Twomz]

@ VV: They're people who were on both mislynches (Sorry, I thought it was obvious), I said "at least one", which implies one or two... what 'fiasco' are you talking about, I haven't seen any arguments that would warrant that mark on them.

[vollkan]

@Volkan: Were you active and posting elsewhere in this site when Parama/Xite/Taz happened?

I don't know.

It's also kind of hard to say because my posting pattern is a bid weird. I am generally in two games at once. Because of uni and other commitments, I tend to limit myself to one post today when I am busy. Thus, I try to post in each game every two days. The effect of this is that I generally consistently accrue a two to three page backlog, depending on how active the game is.

What do you think of Me vs. Parama?

The argument on this page? I'm not sure I understand your point. I don't think it is scummy; I just don't follow it.

[VasudeVa]

@Twomz: Fair enough. Which do you think is likelier: one of them is scum, both of them is scum or none of them is scum? Fiasco would be Taz pushing Parama to L-3. I think it's rather reckless play no matter what their alignment. That said, I also think it says something about their alignment.

@Volkan: Basically from #1063-#1074. I think it's slightly important since Taz pushed Parama to L-3 and you didn't post in that time frame. In the event that you are scum and Taz and Xite are Town, that would have been a splendid time to hammer and get the win.

I was accusing Parama's #1095 to be an attempt to buddy Twomz. Parama said Twomz is Town just because he 'agreed with him'. It doesn't make much sense to me to think that someone else is Town because you agreed with him. It makes more sense that someone is Town based on their actions. And Twomz' votal copy pasta + lazy analysis does not really strike me as something that would make a Townie say 'Twomz is Town' nor does Parama's explanation 'I agreed with him' as a reasonable defense.

Yeah, that. Thoughts on that?

[LlamaFluff]

Vote Count

No Lynch (3) - NicolBolas, Parama, Tazaro

Not Voting (5) - Twomz, VasudeVa, Andrius, vollkan, Xite91

[Parama]

In the interest of getting this game in gear...

@Parama: I'll open my mind and give you the benefit of the doubt that you are not lying. Why did you agree with Twomz? Is it simply because both blue'd players are in your scumteam list?

Oui, mon ami.
I agree with basically all of his suspicions though not for the reasons he provided.

Also, if you read Twomz' post carefully, he specifically said that only one of the blue'd players are scum, not both of them(which is what you were suggesting over and over again.)

Ahem.

I'd say

at least one

of the players in blue is scum.

Tu ne comprends pas anglais?

@Twomz: Why are those names in blue special?

I'll play capt. obvious for a moment here and point out that those two are the only ones on both MLs.

[VasudeVa]

You kept suggesting the 'Andrius/Volkan/Tazaro' scumteam. He said that (probably) 1 of them is scum.

You: 100%(?) these three.
Him: 100% on one of these two.
You: I agree and you're Town.

While I know that it's probably a playstyle thing, I can't help but wonder.

[Twomz]

>.>

"At least one" scum means one scum > both scum > no scum.

[Tazaro]

Isn't almost impossible for us to avoid a no lynch with the vote count the way that it is?

[NicolBolas]

@Volkan: Basically from #1063-#1074. I think it's slightly important since Taz pushed Parama to L-3 and you didn't post in that time frame. In the event that you are scum and Taz and Xite are Town, that would have been a splendid time to hammer and get the win.

I dont get it. How would vollkan be able to hammer with three votes needed to hammer?

Isn't almost impossible for us to avoid a no lynch with the vote count the way that it is?

HMM. What do you mean? People can always unvote and vote for scum. Tazaro- Who is on your top three list? I'm assuming Parama, but you haven't said anything about other suspects. What is your position on vollkan?

[Xite91]

@Volkan: Basically from #1063-#1074. I think it's slightly important since Taz pushed Parama to L-3 and you didn't post in that time frame. In the event that you are scum and Taz and Xite are Town, that would have been a splendid time to hammer and get the win.

I dont get it. How would vollkan be able to hammer with three votes needed to hammer?

I think he was trying to say that scum wouldn't try to get a hammer on someone until they're sure they can get all 3 at once, as in, if Vollkan was the other scum, they wouldn't take the chance.
Of course, if could always be something to the effect of me and/or taz could be scum, but I know my own role, and I don't think taz is scum, so that leaves a good amount of suspicion on Vollkan for me with that point of view.

[Tazaro]

What is your position on vollkan?

Yoda talks: majorly iffy, vollkan is.

[vollkan]

@Volkan: Basically from #1063-#1074. I think it's slightly important since Taz pushed Parama to L-3 and you didn't post in that time frame. In the event that you are scum and Taz and Xite are Town, that would have been a splendid time to hammer and get the win.

I was accusing Parama's #1095 to be an attempt to buddy Twomz. Parama said Twomz is Town just because he 'agreed with him'. It doesn't make much sense to me to think that someone else is Town because you agreed with him. It makes more sense that someone is Town based on their actions. And Twomz' votal copy pasta + lazy analysis does not really strike me as something that would make a Townie say 'Twomz is Town' nor does Parama's explanation 'I agreed with him' as a reasonable defense.

Yeah, that. Thoughts on that?

On 1063-1074: I myself have already indicated that the "distancing" accusation made no sense (nor did the "coaching" one, for that matter). It's a bad vote as it is, but for a MYLO vote, it's terrible. Xite's defence of it in 1074 is interesting, in that while Taz allegedly "claimed he would do it last night", the ostensible reasoning for the vote is based purely on something that occurred today (or, more accurately, something which Taz says occurred today).

On 1095 issue: I think you are blowing it out of proportion somewhat. If we're going to be pedantic, the yes it's true that agreeing with somebody is not the same as thinking they are town. But it's a reasonably common colloquial thing to say that somebody is town if they post something you agree with. I don't do it myself, but it doesn't strike me as unusual. If Parama is scum, then it's very likely buddying and so may have implications for Twomz' alignment, but it isn't a scumtell.

Yoda talks: majorly iffy, vollkan is.

In between 20 and 200 words, why do you suspect me?

[Tazaro]

The suspicion I have is of your aloofness in this game, and I trust's Xite's suspicion of you, too. The town reads I have are Twomz, NicolBolas, and Xite.

[NicolBolas]

The suspicion I have is of your aloofness in this game, and I trust's Xite's suspicion of you, too. The town reads I have are Twomz, NicolBolas, and Xite.

Techinally, this is 19 words, not 20.

Why do you feel the need to post your town reads?

[vollkan]

The suspicion I have is of your aloofness in this game, and I trust's Xite's suspicion of you, too. The town reads I have are Twomz, NicolBolas, and Xite.

Okay, meta time.

Alternative Vote Mafia finished earlier this month. I was town. I was lynched D3. The following may give you a sense of deja vu. In short, though, when I am bored I become aloof, .

Also you continue your trend of only asking questions, never contributing anything.

vollkan: Since you asked me a question based on a misattributed quote, do you have any other questions for me?

Yes. Why did you ask me that?

Feel like posting something that doesn't end in a question mark?

Your not scumhunting at all, just asking a bunch of fairly weak questions without following them up or doing any analysis of people answers.

My response to that:

Feel like posting something that doesn't end in a question mark?

Your not scumhunting at all, just asking a bunch of fairly weak questions without following them up or doing any analysis of people answers.

I primarily scumhunt by analysing reasoning. Basically, as you saw when I criticised the "scum don't pay attention" thing, I am very skeptical of many of the commonly considered scumtells. The only one I tend to find reliable is people's reasoning.

Now, when I gave my 1-6 list thing, people just said wrong, without explanation.
When I asked about why Jason's reaction wasn't natural, which was a quote of your's (albeit misattributed), you didn't respond. Your answer was:

SV didn't say that; I did. Also to answer your question; experience. It's not a matter of motivation for the scum, it's human bias.

Also you continue your trend of only asking questions, never contributing anything.

If I am short on analysis, the default is at your end.

That's a crock of shit.

So it's our fault your being as useful as tits on a bull?

Quote yourself calling someone scummy or town.

I haven't. I've pointed out where I've seen bad reasoning, but I'd be loathe to make an alignment call simply based on a few isolated instances thereof.

So you think nothing of note has happend this game?

Damn it's going to be tough to cast your votes eh?

Apart from the two examples I have given, tell me just one other thing that you think I should be seriously considering as a scumtell.

^ bolding mine. Sound familiar?

Subsequent to that, I then posted one of my 0-100 summary things.

vollkan does a lot of debating and not a lot of scumhunting D1 (except for possibly his back and forth with TBM which was... weird).

This is a meta-trait of mine.

I'll ignore all the mechanics shenanigans and look through the whole game later, need moar pom and volkan.

[Tazaro]

The suspicion I have is of your aloofness in this game, and I trust's Xite's suspicion of you, too. The town reads I have are Twomz, NicolBolas, and Xite.

Techinally, this is 19 words, not 20.

Why do you feel the need to post your town reads?

The town reads were part of my explanation I was giving. Since those are my town reads, vollkan is one of those whom I've narrowed down.

[NicolBolas]

The suspicion I have is of your aloofness in this game, and I trust's Xite's suspicion of you, too. The town reads I have are Twomz, NicolBolas, and Xite.

Techinally, this is 19 words, not 20.

Why do you feel the need to post your town reads?

The town reads were part of my explanation I was giving. Since those are my town reads, vollkan is one of those whom I've narrowed down.

Ah i see.

Vollkan has responded with a meta defense, what's your reply?

vollkan- do you believe that we should take meta seriously? you could be manipulating your meta.

[Tazaro]

That's the right accusation, Nicol, manipulation of meta; I don't see why suspicions should be disbanded due to meta that was in another game waiting to be cited in case one eventually becomes scum in another game.

[vollkan]

vollkan- do you believe that we should take meta seriously? you could be manipulating your meta.

First, that is far from the only game where I have received such criticisms (just the most recent and I didn't have the time to go through the archives)

More principledly:
1) This game is always played with an assumption that other people are going to play by the rules.
2) One of the most important rules in this game is that you should play to win.
3) Deliberately playing poorly as town in order to manipulate one's meta is a serious violation of 2).

That's the right accusation, Nicol, manipulation of meta; I don't see why suspicions should be disbanded due to meta that was in another game waiting to be cited in case one eventually becomes scum in another game.

See above. You're accusing me of serious misconduct.

[VasudeVa]

Playing to win does not necessarily mean that you're always passionate about winning. Meaning, I understand the aloofness coming of as apathy even if you're still playing to your wincon.

It's not an accusation of misconduct, it's an accusation of bad play(ie. aloofness, from Taz's point of view anyway) that generally shouldn't come from a player(seemingly, due to the scummy) as good as you.

What do you say about that?

[vollkan]

Playing to win does not necessarily mean that you're always passionate about winning. Meaning, I understand the aloofness coming of as apathy even if you're still playing to your wincon.

It's not an accusation of misconduct, it's an accusation of bad play(ie. aloofness, from Taz's point of view anyway) that generally shouldn't come from a player(seemingly, due to the scummy) as good as you.

What do you say about that?

He's not accusing me of "bad play"; he is accusing me of "

deliberate

bad play" (ie to manipulate my meta). If a player is deliberately playing badly for reasons not related to that particular game, they are by definition not playing to win. It's akin to alleging that a sprint athlete would deliberately go slower in a race in order to get put in a lower division.

Also, on the point about "a player as good as you": I don't think anybody here will dispute that aloofness is not inherently scummy. That is, it is something that depends on a player's meta. That means that for the purpose of whether aloofness is a scumtell vis a vis me, my meta has to be considered. It's nothing short of inconsistent to use meta to hold me to a high standard of play because I have a reputation as a good player without also considering meta factors which indicate a tendency toward aloofness.

[NicolBolas]

I would argue that it could be possible for a player to play poorly in one game, then try and use that to justify playing poorly in another game as scum.

Taz- Is that the only reason why you find vollkan scummy?

[Tazaro]

Not much to say about a player who hadn't posted frequently and seems to be in a bubble.

[NicolBolas]

hmm. I'm gonna go and read through both Tazaro and vollkan.

[vollkan]

I would argue that it could be possible for a player to play poorly in one game, then try and use that to justify playing poorly in another game as scum.

Yes. However, unless you accuse me of misconduct, you have to accept that my play in the game I referenced was a genuine and recent example of me playing as town. Therefore, any attack on me based on accusations that are almost identical to the ones that I received in that game is necessarily severely weakened if not invalidated