Mini #1007 (Game Over)

[AlmasterGM]

I agree with Hoopla's graduate thesis because it makes a lot of sense from my perspective.

BUT, I disagree with the full scumteam call. I think G&H should replace either Vel or Kid Know Nothing. Probably Vel if I had to call it right now. There is absolutely NOTHING town about G&H. And I don't give a shit about his ONE GAME of meta. If he flips town this game, then fine he's a certified idiot whose username should be changed to Bad and Stupid, and I'll never play with him ever again. But objectively, right here and right now, he is WAY more likely to be scum.

[Hoopla]

He could be scum, sure. But I think he would have played up to this gimmick regardless of alignment - I hope for his sake he is an alt just experimenting with playstyles rather than a deluded newbie thinking this will actually work, but I digress.

It reminds me of another one-hit-wonder, Harumafuji. I played with him in Mini 836. He was posting nonsensicle jargon, and eventually I figured out he was a gimmick account filtering everything he said through TranslationParty before posting. TranslationParty is a utility that translates an english phrase or sentence back and forth from English to Japanese. After this was brought up, he promptly replaced out and wasn't seen again. It was strange.

/offtopic

[AlmasterGM]

Oh man, I hope he's an alt. That would be swell. Because then he would be BANNNNNNED from the site. For playing in a newbie game not as a newbie.

On topic, also notice that Kid Know Nothing is (weakly and somewhat indirectly) defending G&H. Hrmm, hrmm, more links.

[Hoopla]

Where has gonnano gone? I hope he hasn't flaked, because when I read the thread last night, he seriously didn't go anywhere near my scumlist. More gonnano please, so I can keep him in my town list. We need the extra voice of reason...

[AlmasterGM]

He's V/LA.

[Hoopla]

Oh okay. When is he back?

[AlmasterGM]

Unfortunately I will be V/LA August 1-9, with the possibility of getting back the 8th or maybe even the 7th. Luckily, the way this works out with my timezone I should be able to post right up until the deadline of Day 1, be absent for the Night, and get right back in Day 2 soon after it starts.

In other news, do I ever loooove activity.

[Hoopla]

No posts in the last 24 hours, seriously? We're in 2 week deadlines.

If you guys don't want to play, just donate your voting powers to me and put them on Zach. It's a win/win.

[Zachrulez]

Better yet, lynch Good and Honest. Seriously, one post through the entirety of day 2?

[Zachrulez]

Also I'm going to be V/LA the week of August 9th (Probably through Friday)

[Hoopla]

Also I'm going to be V/LA the week of August 9th (Probably through Friday)

Will you be available to claim (if necessary) during this time?

[Espeonage]

Prods and votecount going out in the morning it's 2am.

[Zachrulez]

Also I'm going to be V/LA the week of August 9th (Probably through Friday)

Will you be available to claim (if necessary) during this time?

No. I'm going to be out of state without access.

[Kid Know Nothing]

Sorry, been a little busy lately but I have today off. Tomorrow though, you might not hear from me much or at all. (Ten hour work shift.)

Anyways; I just re-read AlmasterGM in isolation and really, he comes off as Town more than scum. There are a few scummy things he's done, and no I'm not talking about the semantics argument.

"If shotty is doctor, scum will just roleblock him and we'll get nothing," This in particular stuck out to me. It could just be assuming the worst, that scum have a role blocking role. But it seems out of the spectrum of the town's knowledge.

Also, I'm not defending G&H. He can do that on his own. I'm saying I can understand the idea behind a "Good and Honest" play style. I wouldn't try it in a million years but the basic idea dictates certain rules about the playstyle, that's easy to see. So yes, me saying that I can understand why G&H didn't claim (which isn't even valid anymore, because it wasn't G&H's reason not to claim) was an attempt to understand that play style and was an opinion. And well, "For one, there's no reason why difference of opinions = scum"

G&H, it's not that I don't get anything out of your posts. I think you'd be better of posting more frequently and without the walls of texts, that's for sure. A lot of you thoughts become less clear because they blend into your thoughts on another player.

More later.

[gonnano]

I'm back. And wrong about AGar, apparently. Anyway, here comes the spastic catch-up post.

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gonnano, what would you say about ConfidAnon's behaviour towards you on Day 1?

I don't have much to say about that because he didn't do much Day 1. If you have something specific in mind that I haven't already addressed, I'll be happy to do so.
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I like Hoopla's assessment in post 391, and I think that her scumteam reads are probably pretty close. On a related note, I'm going to VOTE: VRK because he's been avoiding taking definitive positions like the plague. Most notable were the vote/unvote of Elleran in quick succession and this:

I need to have a think about what the night kill means, although it may be too early in the game to get anything useful out of it.

Why make this statement? If you don't have an opinion about it, why bring it up? To me this reads like a quick shot at getting some town points.
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I have already explained why a doc/not-doc massclaim does not in any way break G&H's playstyle. I am expecting (in the very near future) either a completed massclaim or a very thorough explanation of why G&H has not completed the massclaim.

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I don't buy the viewpoint that G&H is just building up trust for a big lie somewhere down the road. Think about it. What would be the point? Why would someone play game after game without lying just to win one game and then never be trusted again? What game of Mafia would be important enough to ruin an account for? It would be too much effort for such a tiny payoff.

[drmyshottyizsik]

Ok guys Zach=Scum it's simple

[AlmasterGM]

And well, "For one, there's no reason why difference of opinions = scum"

Fine, but G&H's playstyle is still dumb and anti-town, don't you agree? Even if you "get it?"

Zach not being around for a full week is kinda problematic; in addition to being annoying, according to him, he won't be around to claim (if needed) until 4 days before the deadline. That's cutting it a BIT close in case we want to move things around, BUT I think so long as we have a suitable backup candidate lined up (*cough* G&H *cough*) then we will be fine.

Also, where's redtail? He hasn't posted since Tuesday.

Mod, can we get a prod?

[Espeonage]

Yep. I'm about to do a check and prod(s) will be going out and I will put up a votecount. Uni was hectic Thursday and Friday.

[Espeonage]

Vote Count

4 -

Zachrulez

- Hoopla, ConfidAnon, drmyshottyizsik, AlmasterGM (L-2)
2 -

Good and Honest

- Zachrulez, Kid Know Nothing (L-4)
1 -

Vel-Rahn Koon

- gonnana (L-5)

Not Voting: redtail896, Good and Honest, Vel-Rahn Koon

[Good and Honest]

Hoopla, yes, I realize that if everyone had the same playstyle as me, nothing would happen as no one would ever be lynched. However, I think that not a lot of people have a similar playstyle as me - at least I haven't seen such people on this forum. I think that having a single player with a playstyle like mine in a game of Mafia wouldn't be such a problem.

Because, as I have said in my other games on this forum, the beauty of any game is that it can be played in so many different ways. What matters is to play in a way which you enjoy. That's what I'm doing. If I'm not allowed to play in this way, I just won't play. No, I won't encourage other players to adopt my playstyle - I'll encourage them to play in a way they enjoy.

In my other game with drmyshottyizsik (which has finished now) I have argued extensively whether my playstyle helps NO ONE. I completely disagree. I'm sharing thoughts on the game, I'm asking players questions... Each player sees what I write. I might notice something that no one else has; someone may find the answers given to my questions useful; someone can feel the need to comment on my comments... The result is that more information is gathered and everyone can take it into consideration.

Why should you answer my questions? Well, depending on your answer, I might make a comment or ask another question. And, in any case, your answer(s) will be there for everyone to see - which will be helpful for them.

Interestingly, in my other game with drmyshottyizsik people also suggested that this is not my only account here and that I'm experimenting with playstyles. That's wrong. This is my only account and I'm not experimenting because this playstyle is related to my personality and I have never played in any other way, nor am I willing to.

If some of you have been left with the impression that my first game on this site, which I linked to in my first post, is my ONLY other game here, that's not true. I have played in two other Newbie games (both over now) and, if you are interested, I'll give you links to them. My playstyle there is the same. In one of those games the mafiosi recognized me as a threat and killed me on Night 1, while in the other game I survived and I think I contributed to a certain extent to the town's win.

Hoopla, I agree with you when you say that this game is purely about probabilities. The thing is, when I'm solving a mystery case, I don't like obvious solutions. Wouldn't you agree that it would be most interesting/exciting if the least probable solution turns out to be the real one? That's why I prefer to explore all possibilities, not just concentrate on the most probable ones.

From your statistics post I was left with the impression that you consider a mafia team Zachrulez-Kid Know Nothing-ConfidAnon likely. But in post #399, you have replaced ConfidAnon with Vel-Rahn Koon. Why?

Also, it might be just your playstyle but it makes me feel uncomfortable - on Day 1 you were very eager to lynch Elleran and now you seem very eager to lynch Zachrulez...

...And Zachrulez's reaction is: "Better yet, lynch Good and Honest. Seriously, one post through the entirety of day 2?". Of course it would be better for you if I'm lynched than if you're lynched! I'm sure that if it weren't the "one post through the entirety of day 2", you would have found another "reason". You have made a number of very short posts during Day 2 - whether that's better than my one long post is entirely subjective.

Vel-Rahn Koon, you didn't answer my second question:

"Also, you state this about ConfidAnon: "I think CA seemed to drift through the game as well yesterday". What would you say about Zachrulez in that regard? Do you think Zachrulez "drifted through the game" on Day 1?"

Regarding your question - everything I wrote when Espeonage closed the thread was lost. It's actually covered just by the first part of my post #393, where I explain why I refused to participate in the mass claim. In my original lost post, I also addressed a couple of AGar's comments but I didn't do it again in post #393 because AGar is now "dead".

AlmasterGM, when you say that Kid Know Nothing has defended me, which point in time did you mean? Because, if you are talking about the beginning of Day 2, when Kid Know Nothing voted me, I had exactly the opposite feeling - Kid Know Nothing accused me for "the absolute lack of total content overall yesterday". If you're interpreting Kid Know Nothing's actions as a "defence", I'd like to hear more explanations why.

By the way, you didn't answer my question - what were the real reasons for your vote for Elleran (it surely wasn't just to "scare" Elleran more)?

Also, AlmasterGM, as other players have noted, it's not nice when you're calling people "stupid". The rules allow a playstyle like mine and I have the right to play the way I want to play - that doesn't make me "stupid". And I'm sure you can guess I'm not feeling happy that you're hoping I'll be banned.

Kid Know Nothing, that's just my writing style. I don't post often because I prefer to have more to comment on; I also love writing and sometimes it's diffucult to stop... By the way, I actually think your writing style is somewhat similar to mine - you don't post that often, either, and you have made a couple long posts (which I definitely enjoyed reading)... Also, if a thought of mine becomes less clear, just ask for a clarification.

You make an interesting observation about AlmasterGM's statement. However, earlier Hoopla had made a similar comment about it being likely that there is a "Mafia Roleblocker" and, after I asked, Hoopla presented statistics showing it's more likely that there is such a role than that there isn't. Of course, it's still good to have that statement of AlmasterGM's in mind.

gonnano, in my post #393 I did explain why I refused to participate. I summarized ConfidAnon's behaviour towards you earlier - first, ConfidAnon voted you to "add another name to the conversation"; then in post #144 ConfidAnon made a short remark on a post of yours and I perceived that again as trying to bring attention to you; but, finally, ConfidAnon stated that your reaction to ConfidAnon's vote wasn't strong at all. I wondered whether you'd have any comments on these actions of ConfidAnon.

When I asked you about the quick succession of votes for Elleran on page 10, you said: "Hoopla had been trying to get that wagon going for a long time already. After I joined in started to take off. My thoughts are that the scum were trying to see if they could get by with ignoring Elleran's scummy behavior, then when it looked like they might not get away with it they started showing more support for his bandwagon". Did you write that from the standpoint that Elleran was a mafioso?

drmyshottyizsik, would you explain what makes you think Zachrulez is a mafioso?

[Hoopla]

Because, as I have said in my other games on this forum, the beauty of any game is that it can be played in so many different ways. What matters is to play in a way which you enjoy. That's what I'm doing. If I'm not allowed to play in this way, I just won't play. No, I won't encourage other players to adopt my playstyle - I'll encourage them to play in a way they enjoy.

Absolutely, mafia is indeed a beautiful game. To use a parallel, soccer and chess are similar games that boast a rich tapestry of creative playstyles - this is much of the appeal. But your 'playstyle' is the equivalent of playing soccer with only your left foot, or playing chess without using your queen. Sacrificing a necessary facet of the game DOES NOT make it a playstyle. Lying and unearthing liars is what this game is. It is what it revolves around. What you don't realise is that by not lying, you cannot by nature, ever tell the truth, which runs contrary to your moniker-cum-mantra. You just end up sitting in the middle, not ever lying, not ever telling the truth. Just nothing.

I'll encourage them to play in a way they enjoy.

Again, no! Enjoying the game is essential, but if someone enjoys playing the game by only posting in Russian or lolcats, it shouldn't be encouraged. I'm going to borrow a quote from Goatrevolt here;

"I play mafia because I enjoy the challenge of the game. The game would cease to be challenging if the point wasn't to win or lose. I want to win because everybody involved in the game wanting to win is what keeps the game from being a pointless exercise."

G&H, you're not playing to win. Simple as that. And I probably am going to ignore you until the rest of us decide to get rid of you.

[ConfidAnon]

Mod

- I should be voting for Zachrulez.

Don't really have anything to comment on, but I agree with Hoopla about G&H's playstyle.

[gonnano]

gonnano, in my post #393 I did explain why I refused to participate. I summarized ConfidAnon's behaviour towards you earlier - first, ConfidAnon voted you to "add another name to the conversation"; then in post #144 ConfidAnon made a short remark on a post of yours and I perceived that again as trying to bring attention to you; but, finally, ConfidAnon stated that your reaction to ConfidAnon's vote wasn't strong at all. I wondered whether you'd have any comments on these actions of ConfidAnon.

I consider CA's actions to be a null tell. He's a little on the lurky side IMO, but that's about all I've got on him.

Regarding your refusal to participate in the massclaim:

As I have said, I intend to always be honest when playing a game of Mafia. So, in general, I won't reveal what my role in a particular game is. In our current game, I was only supposed to say whether I'm a "Doctor" (or something similar) or not - but that still has something to do with my role.

This statement from you says that you intend to be honest and that you don't want to finish the protection role massclaim. What I'm looking for is a connection between these two things. I've already explained that roleclaims only break your playstyle when there is no acceptable scum answer to them (acceptable meaning both honest and non-gamebreaking). The protection role massclaim does have an acceptable scum answer, and I would like an actual reason that an honest player could not participate in such a massclaim.

Mod - I believe that I should be voting for Vel-Rahn Koon, unless there was something wrong with the way I formatted my vote. (It's in post 414)

[AlmasterGM]

G&H, at the top of your next post, can you post in large, bold letters who you think is most likely to be scum?

[AlmasterGM]

O hai Zach.

Posting on the site?

Why not come by and say hi?