Nomic

[massive]

Seems challenging. I'd like to give it a shot. Now let me go back and read the rules again ...

/in

[massive]

Well, I

was

going first ... grumble grumble

[massive]

Sounds reasonable AND helpful.

vote yes

[massive]

Remember that rules 201-213 are mutable, and the 1xx block of rules, while immutable now, may become mutable in the future. Listing each rule as it currently is stated would be extremely helpful.

Having the entire list of ALL rules as they stand at the beginning of each page may take up huge space, though.

And of course, no player is required to post the list; he or she only receives points if he or she does so, or loses points if he or she fails.

[massive]

It would be whoever is "to his left", i.e., before him in the queue, so Stewie would be the Judge for that one.

[massive]

If it's not explicitly stated in the rules, then it's legal ... of course, someone will probably propose that auto-vote rule in the future.

I voted yes previously, so I see no reason not to

vote: yes

again now.

[massive]

vote: yes

[massive]

All righty then.

Proposal 303.

Propose to change immutable rule 105 to mutable.

Reasoning: During the discussion about how to deal with absentee voters, suggestions were made that allowed people to miss votes. Rule 105 says that all eligible voters MUST vote, and that each player is an eligible voter. Changing Rule 105 to mutable will allow further modifications to be made to allow not only absenteeism, but also things like abstaining from votes in the later game.

Note that this does not actually change Rule 105; because of Rule 103, the only action that this proposal can take is to change Rule 105 to mutable.

I was going to bring this up during the discussion of Proposal 302, but it worked itself out to a fine conclusion without bringing this up.

[massive]

I still have to

vote yes

on my own resolutions, right?

[massive]

Certainly sounds fine to me. However, I wish you guys hadn't brought up the idea of cheating, as now I'm going to be wondering every time something like this occurs.

I was so happy being naive! Ignorance really is bliss!

No?

[massive]

That would be excellent, as my brain is mush thanks to the holidays and playing "Apples to Apples" with people with no subjective interpretation skills whatsoever.

[massive]

The delegate from the Phillipines

votes yes

... er, wrong game.

[massive]

Vote: Yes

only because I think it will be interesting to see how people change it in the future.

[massive]

I'm with CoolBot on this one. I would vote for making specifics rules mutable, but I don't think I'd vote to change all immutable rules to mutable. I'm not sure what purpose this would have. Right now, the only immutable rule I see that would benefit from being changed to mutable (other than the one I did earlier) would be 112, the one that prohibits changing the victory conditions. I think anyone attempting to change any of the other, base rules would be voted down quite quickly - so why change them to mutable in the first place?

[massive]

vote no

[massive]

vote yes

[massive]

Immutable Rules

101. All players must always abide by all the rules then in effect, in the form in which they are then in effect. The rules in the Initial Set are in effect whenever a game begins. The Initial Set consists of Rules 101-116 (immutable) and 201-213 (mutable).

102. Initially rules in the 100's are immutable and rules in the 200's are mutable. Rules subsequently enacted or transmuted (that is, changed from immutable to mutable or vice versa) may be immutable or mutable regardless of their numbers, and rules in the Initial Set may be transmuted regardless of their numbers.

103. A rule-change is any of the following: (1) the enactment, repeal, or amendment of a mutable rule; (2) the enactment, repeal, or amendment of an amendment of a mutable rule; or (3) the transmutation of an immutable rule into a mutable rule or vice versa.

(Note: This definition implies that, at least initially, all new rules are mutable; immutable rules, as long as they are immutable, may not be amended or repealed; mutable rules, as long as they are mutable, may be amended or repealed; any rule of any status may be transmuted; no rule is absolutely immune to change.)

104. All rule-changes proposed in the proper way shall be voted on. They will be adopted if and only if they receive the required number of votes.

106. All proposed rule-changes shall be written down before they are voted on. If they are adopted, they shall guide play in the form in which they were voted on.

107. No rule-change may take effect earlier than the moment of the completion of the vote that adopted it, even if its wording explicitly states otherwise. No rule-change may have retroactive application.

108. Each proposed rule-change shall be given a number for reference. The numbers shall begin with 301, and each rule-change proposed in the proper way shall receive the next successive integer, whether or not the proposal is adopted.

If a rule is repealed and reenacted, it receives the number of the proposal to reenact it. If a rule is amended or transmuted, it receives the number of the proposal to amend or transmute it. If an amendment is amended or repealed, the entire rule of which it is a part receives the number of the proposal to amend or repeal the amendment.

109. Rule-changes that transmute immutable rules into mutable rules may be adopted if and only if the vote is unanimous among the eligible voters. Transmutation shall not be implied, but must be stated explicitly in a proposal to take effect.

110. In a conflict between a mutable and an immutable rule, the immutable rule takes precedence and the mutable rule shall be entirely void. For the purposes of this rule a proposal to transmute an immutable rule does not "conflict" with that immutable rule.

111. If a rule-change as proposed is unclear, ambiguous, paradoxical, or destructive of play, or if it arguably consists of two or more rule-changes compounded or is an amendment that makes no difference, or if it is otherwise of questionable value, then the other players may suggest amendments or argue against the proposal before the vote. A reasonable time must be allowed for this debate. The proponent decides the final form in which the proposal is to be voted on and, unless the Judge has been asked to do so, also decides the time to end debate and vote.

112. The state of affairs that constitutes winning may not be altered from achieving n points to any other state of affairs. The magnitude of n and the means of earning points may be changed, and rules that establish a winner when play cannot continue may be enacted and (while they are mutable) be amended or repealed.

113. A player always has the option to forfeit the game rather than continue to play or incur a game penalty. No penalty worse than losing, in the judgment of the player to incur it, may be imposed.

114. There must always be at least one mutable rule. The adoption of rule-changes must never become completely impermissible.

115. Rule-changes that affect rules needed to allow or apply rule-changes are as permissible as other rule-changes. Even rule-changes that amend or repeal their own authority are permissible. No rule-change or type of move is impermissible solely on account of the self-reference or self-application of a rule.

116. Whatever is not prohibited or regulated by a rule is permitted and unregulated, with the sole exception of changing the rules, which is permitted only when a rule or set of rules explicitly or implicitly permits it.

Mutable Rules

201. Players shall alternate turns in alphabetical order by screenname.

202. One turn consists of two parts in this order: (1) proposing one rule-change and having it voted on, and (2) throwing one die once and adding the number of points on its face to one's score.

In mail and computer games, instead of throwing a die, players subtract 291 from the ordinal number of their proposal and multiply the result by the fraction of favorable votes it received, rounded to the nearest integer. (This yields a number between 0 and 10 for the first player, with the upper limit increasing by one each turn; more points are awarded for more popular proposals.)

203. A rule-change is adopted if and only if the vote is unanimous among the eligible voters. If this rule is not amended by the end of the second complete circuit of turns, it automatically changes to require only a simple majority.

204. If and when rule-changes can be adopted without unanimity, the players who vote against winning proposals shall receive 10 points each.

205. An adopted rule-change takes full effect at the moment of the completion of the vote that adopted it.

206. When a proposed rule-change is defeated, the player who proposed it loses 10 points.

207. Each player always has exactly one vote.

208. The winner is the first player to achieve 100 (positive) points.

In mail and computer games, the winner is the first player to achieve 200 (positive) points.

209. At no time may there be more than 25 mutable rules.

210. Players may not conspire or consult on the making of future rule-changes unless they are team-mates.

The first paragraph of this rule does not apply to games by mail or computer.

211. If two or more mutable rules conflict with one another, or if two or more immutable rules conflict with one another, then the rule with the lowest ordinal number takes precedence.

If at least one of the rules in conflict explicitly says of itself that it defers to another rule (or type of rule) or takes precedence over another rule (or type of rule), then such provisions shall supersede the numerical method for determining precedence.

If two or more rules claim to take precedence over one another or to defer to one another, then the numerical method again governs.

212. If players disagree about the legality of a move or the interpretation or application of a rule, then the player preceding the one moving is to be the Judge and decide the question. Disagreement for the purposes of this rule may be created by the insistence of any player. This process is called invoking Judgment.

When Judgment has been invoked, the next player may not begin his or her turn without the consent of a majority of the other players.

The Judge's Judgment may be overruled only by a unanimous vote of the other players taken before the next turn is begun. If a Judge's Judgment is overruled, then the player preceding the Judge in the playing order becomes the new Judge for the question, and so on, except that no player is to be Judge during his or her own turn or during the turn of a team-mate.

Unless a Judge is overruled, one Judge settles all questions arising from the game until the next turn is begun, including questions as to his or her own legitimacy and jurisdiction as Judge.

New Judges are not bound by the decisions of old Judges. New Judges may, however, settle only those questions on which the players currently disagree and that affect the completion of the turn in which Judgment was invoked. All decisions by Judges shall be in accordance with all the rules then in effect; but when the rules are silent, inconsistent, or unclear on the point at issue, then the Judge shall consider game-custom and the spirit of the game before applying other standards.

213. If the rules are changed so that further play is impossible, or if the legality of a move cannot be determined with finality, or if by the Judge's best reasoning, not overruled, a move appears equally legal and illegal, then the first player unable to complete a turn is the winner.

This rule takes precedence over every other rule determining the winner.

301. If a player finds they posted the first post on a new page, he or she shall immediately post the numbered and currently active rules. If the player does this before anyone else posts, he or she shall recieve 5 points. If the player does not do this before anyone else posts, he or she shall lose 10 points.

302. Each player has 72 hours from the time their turn begins to submit a new proposal for voting. If he/she does not submit a proposal on time, the turn will move to the next player. If any player forfeits their turn three times during the course of the game, they shall be removed from the game.

303. Every player is an eligible voter. Every eligible voter must participate in every vote on rule-changes.

304. (Trial by Combat) After any vote (proposed, say, by Player A) in which all but one of the eligible voters votes yes (say, Player B), Player A may challenge Player B to a game of Paper-Rock-Scissors (conducted via PM to the current Judge, or the next player up that is not Player A or B). If Player A wins, Player B must change his vote to yes and the proposition pases. If Player B wins, Player A must give Player B one tenth (rounded up) of his current points, with a minimum of five points (this can make Player A go negative). The only bond preventing the game's judge from cheating is his honor at mafiascum.[/quote]

[massive]

Abstain from voting. I don't feel like I'm giving this game enough of my attention.

[massive]

vote yes

[massive]

vote yes

if only to see Trial By Combat

[massive]

I'll take Territory 1 and name it Tyrannos. And will take tomorrow to think about my proposal.

[massive]

How unfair, NO ONE does anything at 1:28 am. Well I know what my next proposal is going to be: All proposal deadlines must be at reasonable hours. Yeesh.

[massive]

Did we ever see a final version with "no negative values" before we started voting? Just curious.

-- massive of tyrannos

[massive]

vote no

as I think this is directly propogated against ... well, myself.

[massive]

I really like the proposal too, but with 4/7 votes for yes, it passes anyways, so I may as well vote no for the points ... le sigh.

vote yes

because I'm a principled player. Ain't that the shiznit.

[massive]

My prop's at the office, will post it Monday morning.

[massive]

Prop. 318.

To The Moon, Alice!

A. When the moon is over a player's territory, that player may choose to forfeit his vote on the current proposal and lose G$20000 to travel to the moon for one rotation of turns. This is different from being in exile on the moon, and may be referred to as "just visiting."

B. While on the moon, a player has the following changes made to his gameplay.

• 1. Any purchased vote costs G$10000, but if used to vote no on a proposal, automatically causes the proposal to fail.
  2. Any points gained are doubled.

C. A player may not return to the moon until all other players have made one trip to the moon.

[massive]

Currently active and numbered Rule-set:

Immutable Rules

101. All players must always abide by all the rules then in effect, in the form in which they are then in effect. The rules in the Initial Set are in effect whenever a game begins. The Initial Set consists of Rules 101-116 (immutable) and 201-213 (mutable).

102. Initially rules in the 100's are immutable and rules in the 200's are mutable. Rules subsequently enacted or transmuted (that is, changed from immutable to mutable or vice versa) may be immutable or mutable regardless of their numbers, and rules in the Initial Set may be transmuted regardless of their numbers.

103. A rule-change is any of the following: (1) the enactment, repeal, or amendment of a mutable rule; (2) the enactment, repeal, or amendment of an amendment of a mutable rule; or (3) the transmutation of an immutable rule into a mutable rule or vice versa.

(Note: This definition implies that, at least initially, all new rules are mutable; immutable rules, as long as they are immutable, may not be amended or repealed; mutable rules, as long as they are mutable, may be amended or repealed; any rule of any status may be transmuted; no rule is absolutely immune to change.)

104. All rule-changes proposed in the proper way shall be voted on. They will be adopted if and only if they receive the required number of votes.

106. All proposed rule-changes shall be written down before they are voted on. If they are adopted, they shall guide play in the form in which they were voted on.

107. No rule-change may take effect earlier than the moment of the completion of the vote that adopted it, even if its wording explicitly states otherwise. No rule-change may have retroactive application.

108. Each proposed rule-change shall be given a number for reference. The numbers shall begin with 301, and each rule-change proposed in the proper way shall receive the next successive integer, whether or not the proposal is adopted.

If a rule is repealed and reenacted, it receives the number of the proposal to reenact it. If a rule is amended or transmuted, it receives the number of the proposal to amend or transmute it. If an amendment is amended or repealed, the entire rule of which it is a part receives the number of the proposal to amend or repeal the amendment.

109. Rule-changes that transmute immutable rules into mutable rules may be adopted if and only if the vote is unanimous among the eligible voters. Transmutation shall not be implied, but must be stated explicitly in a proposal to take effect.

110. In a conflict between a mutable and an immutable rule, the immutable rule takes precedence and the mutable rule shall be entirely void. For the purposes of this rule a proposal to transmute an immutable rule does not "conflict" with that immutable rule.

111. If a rule-change as proposed is unclear, ambiguous, paradoxical, or destructive of play, or if it arguably consists of two or more rule-changes compounded or is an amendment that makes no difference, or if it is otherwise of questionable value, then the other players may suggest amendments or argue against the proposal before the vote. A reasonable time must be allowed for this debate. The proponent decides the final form in which the proposal is to be voted on and, unless the Judge has been asked to do so, also decides the time to end debate and vote.

113. A player always has the option to forfeit the game rather than continue to play or incur a game penalty. No penalty worse than losing, in the judgment of the player to incur it, may be imposed.

114. There must always be at least one mutable rule. The adoption of rule-changes must never become completely impermissible.

115. Rule-changes that affect rules needed to allow or apply rule-changes are as permissible as other rule-changes. Even rule-changes that amend or repeal their own authority are permissible. No rule-change or type of move is impermissible solely on account of the self-reference or self-application of a rule.

116. Whatever is not prohibited or regulated by a rule is permitted and unregulated, with the sole exception of changing the rules, which is permitted only when a rule or set of rules explicitly or implicitly permits it.

Mutable Rules

201. Players shall alternate turns in alphabetical order by screenname.

202. One turn consists of two parts in this order: (1) proposing one rule-change and having it voted on, and (2) throwing one die once and adding the number of points on its face to one's score.

In mail and computer games, instead of throwing a die, players subtract 291 from the ordinal number of their proposal and multiply the result by the fraction of favorable votes it received, rounded to the nearest integer. (This yields a number between 0 and 10 for the first player, with the upper limit increasing by one each turn; more points are awarded for more popular proposals.)

203. A rule-change is adopted if and only if the vote is unanimous among the eligible voters. If this rule is not amended by the end of the second complete circuit of turns, it automatically changes to require only a simple majority.

204. If and when rule-changes can be adopted without unanimity, the players who vote against winning proposals shall receive 10 points each.

205. An adopted rule-change takes full effect at the moment of the completion of the vote that adopted it.

206. When a proposed rule-change is defeated, the player who proposed it loses 10 points.

207. Each player always has exactly one vote.

208. The winner is the first player to achieve 100 (positive) points.

In mail and computer games, the winner is the first player to achieve 200 (positive) points.

210. Players may not conspire or consult on the making of future rule-changes unless they are team-mates.

The first paragraph of this rule does not apply to games by mail or computer.

211. If two or more mutable rules conflict with one another, or if two or more immutable rules conflict with one another, then the rule with the lowest ordinal number takes precedence.

If at least one of the rules in conflict explicitly says of itself that it defers to another rule (or type of rule) or takes precedence over another rule (or type of rule), then such provisions shall supersede the numerical method for determining precedence.

If two or more rules claim to take precedence over one another or to defer to one another, then the numerical method again governs.

212. If players disagree about the legality of a move or the interpretation or application of a rule, then the player preceding the one moving is to be the Judge and decide the question. Disagreement for the purposes of this rule may be created by the insistence of any player. This process is called invoking Judgment.

When Judgment has been invoked, the next player may not begin his or her turn without the consent of a majority of the other players.

The Judge's Judgment may be overruled only by a unanimous vote of the other players taken before the next turn is begun. If a Judge's Judgment is overruled, then the player preceding the Judge in the playing order becomes the new Judge for the question, and so on, except that no player is to be Judge during his or her own turn or during the turn of a team-mate.

Unless a Judge is overruled, one Judge settles all questions arising from the game until the next turn is begun, including questions as to his or her own legitimacy and jurisdiction as Judge.

New Judges are not bound by the decisions of old Judges. New Judges may, however, settle only those questions on which the players currently disagree and that affect the completion of the turn in which Judgment was invoked. All decisions by Judges shall be in accordance with all the rules then in effect; but when the rules are silent, inconsistent, or unclear on the point at issue, then the Judge shall consider game-custom and the spirit of the game before applying other standards.

213. If the rules are changed so that further play is impossible, or if the legality of a move cannot be determined with finality, or if by the Judge's best reasoning, not overruled, a move appears equally legal and illegal, then the first player unable to complete a turn is the winner.

This rule takes precedence over every other rule determining the winner.

301. If a player finds they posted the first post on a new page, he or she shall immediately post the numbered and currently active rules. If the player does this before anyone else posts, he or she shall recieve 5 points. If the player does not do this before anyone else posts, he or she shall lose 10 points.

304. (Trial by Combat) After any vote (proposed, say, by Player A) in which all but one of the eligible voters votes yes (say, Player B), Player A may challenge Player B to a game of Paper-Rock-Scissors (conducted via PM to the current Judge, or the next player up that is not Player A or B). If Player A wins, Player B must change his vote to yes and the proposition pases. If Player B wins, Player A must give Player B one tenth (rounded up) of his current points, with a minimum of five points (this can make Player A go negative). The only bond preventing the game's judge from cheating is his honor at mafiascum.

Rule 307. (Abstentions)

• A. Players may abstain from any vote.
  B. Every player is an eligible voter. Any player who does not vote within 72 hours of the first vote cast shall abstain from the vote.
  C. If a player abstains from a vote, then his or her vote does not count for or against the proposal. Further, an abstaining vote does not count towards the required number of yes votes to pass.
  D. If more than 50% of the players abstain, the vote fails due to lack of interest.

Rule 309. (An Additional Variable) Each player shall be assigned an absract attribute called x, which has an initial value of 0 and may be referred to as player.x or player's x, where player is the name of the player which x belongs to. This attribute may be manipulated by other rules. Also, after every vote on a rule is completed, each player's x value shall be increased by 840.

Rule 310. (Transmuted from rule 112) The state of affairs that constitutes winning may not be altered from achieving n points to any other state of affairs. The magnitude of n and the means of earning points may be changed, and rules that establish a winner when play cannot continue may be enacted and (while they are mutable) be amended or repealed.

Rule 312. (Nomic Land)

• A. There exist nine territories.
  • 1. Each territory is uniquely designated by a number 0 through 8.
    2. Every territory, t, borders territories t-1, t+1, t-3, and t+3. If, in calculating bordering territories, a territory number larger than 8 is calculated, subtract 9. If, in calculating bordering terriotries, a territory number less than 0 is calculated, add 9.
  B. There exists a moon that is always above a territory.
  • 1. The territory the moon is above is the territory with a number equal to the remainder of (P-2)/9, where P is the current proposal number.
    2. If any player has no territories, that player is in exile on the moon.
  C. Territory Names
  • 1. Names
    • 0 - New Quahog
      1 - Tyrannos
      2 - PBAJ
      3 - The West Pole
      4 - The Core
      6 - pi
      7 - Botia
      8 - Sharkland2.
    Territory names may not be changed
  D. Territory Points
  • 1. Every player has territory points equal to 2^(m-1), where m is the number of territories owned.
    2. If a player has territory 4, subtract 56 points from his or her territory points.
    3. A player may not have negative territory points.
    4. When determing a winner, territory points are added to a player's points.

Rule 313. (Currency) The variable x shall be renamed "Gnomes", or G$ for short. During a voting round, a player may choose to lose 5000 Gnomes in order to receive an additional vote for that voting round. A player may only gain one extra vote per round in this way. Also he may not do this if all players have voted for a turn or doing so would give him a negative value for gnomes. Buying a vote increases the total number of votes by one, increasing the number required for majority accordingly. This rule overrides Rule 207.

Prop. 317. Going Once! Going Twice!

• A. A player has 72 hours to make a proposal.
  • 1. If a player does not make a proposal, the proposal will immediatly go to auction. Further, the player will receive a strike.
    2. If a player accumalates three or more strikes, that player will lose 25 points. Further, the player lose three strikes.
  B. Auctions
  • 1. When an auction occurs, the player who made the last proposal will be the Auctioneer.
    2. Players may bid Gnomes by PMing the Auctioneer their bid. Players may not make a larger bid than the number of Gnomes they posess. The Auctioneer may not bid during an Auction.
    3. 48 hours after the Auction begins, the Auctioneer will declare the winner and post all the bids and the time they were received.
    • a. The winner is the player who bid the highest number of Gnomes.
      b. In the event of a tie, the player with the earliest high bid is the winner.
      c. If there is still a tie, the player with the least amount of points is the winner.
  C. Winning an Auction
  • 1. A number of Gnomes equal the the winner's bid is deducted from the winner.
    2. The winner of an auction will make a proposal within 48 hours.
    3. If the winner of an auction does not make a proposal, he or she will receive two strikes and the turn ends.
    4. The winner of an auction will receive all points for the made proposal, unless the points are negative. If the points are negative, the player whose turn it is will receive the points.

[massive]

The same could be said about the third option too, and I'd certainly be willing to re-word the prop to reflect that B and C only pertain to "Just Visiting"; that was the intent of the prop, after all.

[massive]

Hey, don't look at me, I just wanted to do something with the moon ... not the people in exile there. But I love the comment about 'balance', especially when both territory points AND being in exile have no impact on the game yet.

The current version ...

Prop. 318.

To The Moon, Alice!

A. There exists a categorization of players known as "Visiting the Moon". Any number of players may be a member of this category at any given time.

A. When the moon is over a player's territory, that player may choose to forfeit his vote on the current proposal and lose G$20000 to travel to the moon.

• 1. The player must make public the decision to travel to the moon before the voting deadline.
  2. The visit to the moon begins immediately after the voting period on the current proposal ends.
  3. While on the moon, the player is assigned to the "Visiting the Moon" category of players.
  4. After seven consecutive proposals, the player is removed from the "Visiting the Moon" category of players.

B. While in the "Visitng the Moon" category of players, a player has the following changes made to his gameplay.

• 1. Any purchased vote costs G$10000, but if used to vote no on a proposal, automatically causes the proposal to fail. The player must state his intent to use this vote to vote no at the time of purchase.
  2. Any points gained are doubled.

C. A player may not be placed back into the "Visiting the Moon" category until all other players have been placed into the "Visiting the Moon" category.

[massive]

Yeah, but there's still no mechanism for taking territory points either! It's like talking about how good chicken tastes when you have a basketful of eggs.

[massive]

vote yes

as if you didn't know that already

[massive]

Well, you know I certainly like it, that was pretty scummy of Coolbot to hover there towards the end of that last prop. I'm already FOS'ing him for it, but I know I could never beat him at RPS ... but I woulda tried.

[massive]

I do dig this one. Seems balanced ... plus it means (potentially) more points for me!

[massive]

I just wanted to note that I no longer am MIA ... I'm a POW. Nah, just kidding. But I am back. Just so you know. If you care.