Open 238: Trendy and Subversive Game Over

[podium123456]

I mentioned them again because I thought you didn't understand what I meant.
The post you linked to now does look heated and emotional, and it didn't escape my attention when I read the thread. But it was basically the only one in that vein. The rest, or most of the rest, were much calmer.

Ok, well in my opinion you are going back on your word. You asked me (three times) to provide examples of a game in which i reacted similarly. I provided you with a game in which during the first argument, i responded in a heated/emotional/hysterical manner. You have confirmed this. Why are you not honoring your word? Was it because it was a lie when you said it?

... your excuse is that 'oh well, over the course of the game you seemed more calm and controlled'. Right. Over the course of the

game

. You are comparing the first few pages of this game, to an entire game that spanned nearly 20 pages and several months. Logically, you would see a range of behaviors from me, as the situations dictated. You didn't go to that thread to find calm/controlled behavior so you could compare it to the absence of it in this thread, you went looking for the presence of heated/emotional behavior.

If you ignore the posts related to the mania surrounding the first argument i got mixed up in here, how would you describe my posting manner?

For instance, here and here.

[millar13]

yes...generally only think scum dispute something that much

A. It wasn't

ME

that almost killed the game, it was gonnano... for quoting an ongoing game.

B. Gonnano accused me of being scum based on his (incorrect) notion that i was acting differently in this game... i disputed that. And here you are telling me that i am scum for disputing that? Really? What was i supposed to do, just agree with him and lynch myself?

Your vote on me is weak, incorrect, and generally not well thought out. Seems very scummy.

UNVOTE
VOTE: millar13

OMGUS and DOUBLE/TRIPLE post king

meh

[podium123456]

OMGUS and DOUBLE/TRIPLE post king

meh

Why did you even bother signing up to play?

[TeeJay]

Podium, While OMGUS isn't a rock solid indication, it never helps the case. I am not basing my believe that you are scum on that alone.

[Sawyer]

I said I get a post in by today, so I got as far as i could (post 100), but I have to leave for work. I'll catch up on the rest tomorrow.

Teejay now says that he considers a non-RVS vote to be 'serious'. Yet in this post, he implies that nothing serious had occurred...

after

millar's non-RVS vote.

Do you not see a contradiction there?

The point I made was that he was using a different extent of seriousness. It's not hard to see how voting because you want that person lynched is much more serious than voting because things are no longer in the RVS. And I agree with TJ that millars vote wasn't to be taken serious (even though millar claims he was serious).

Nothing would've came of millars vote. I can't imagine anyone following it up for the same reasons, which is why I feel your defense is weak and unneeded. TJ gave his opinion on the matter in post 47, but you kept defending the point and kept pushing it. Millars vote clearly wasn't a good one and if you halted the discussion on it (like TJ suggested in post 47), nothing would've came of it and no one would've questioned your vote because the reasons were not unjust.

For the record, I feel these points are very wrong and not why I think your defense is uncalled for.

1.) You have immediately gotten defensive after one vote was cast your way. At the very least that your antsy.

2.) On top of that, you had a text book example of an OMGUS vote toward millar.

3.) You attempt to draw attention away from yourself by asking my opinion of millar's actions.

I don't think you got defensive when millar voted you like TJ does, just after when TJ questioned your vote. Your vote clearly wasn't OMGUS and when you asked TJ for his opinion, it's not hard to see that you were curious about what he thought of the matter. It's in this respect that I also think TJ is tunneling quite hard toward you.

When teejay maintained his incorrect observation after i tried to explain it to him, should i have continued trying to get him to understand it... or should i have dropped it?

You should've dropped it, IMO. In post 47, TJ gives his thoughts on the matter after you explained it and it should've ended there.

I didn't think much about the emotional aspect of your posts like ODDin did, but when compared to that other game, it has become a concern. Though I will give you that it is a whole game being compared to one timeframe, so I wait and see if it holds any weight.

Now onto others...

Why don't we just get a podium claim? I would almost be willing to hammer, depending on what he claims.

What is this? Page 4,millar and I made 1 or 2 relevant posts each and it's become a back and forth between TJ, ODDin and Podium and you're willing to hammer depending on the claim? +scumpoints for you.

And I'm glad Podium was smart enough not to claim after ODDin asked him due to certain circumstances in the game like the lack of activity from certain players and it being page 4 (again, are you guys serious?).

So for the moment...

Unvote

[TeeJay]

I admit it is too early to lynch.

It's in this respect that I also think TJ is tunneling quite hard toward you.

Tunneling... Now that you mentioned it, I'll be honest, I have. The

quite hard

part is indirectly stating that I was intentionally doing so (you may or may not mean that). This I disagree with, the only reason why I have only gone against him is because, simply put, no one else has done something that in my mind is worth noting.

Furthermore, I would like to indicate that I am not the only one that would be guilty of tunneling, Oddin would be a good candidate (maybe even more so) as well.

[mallowgeno]

In my opinion, Day one lynches where it isn't mylo should be used as follows:

-Lynch an unhelpful player-Why have a player that isn't contributing squat stay in the game? If they aren't contributing now, what makes you think they will contribute when it really counts on lylo? If you keep them till lylo, then you will be questioning them with little response, making them look scummy (whether they are or aren't scum).

Therefore

unvote, vote millar

[jmj3000]

Official Vote Count #4 of Day 1

Players needed to lynch: 4

mallowgeno

- 1 - gonnano - (L-3)

millar13

- 2 - podium123456, mallowgeno - (L-2)

podium123456

- 1 - millar13 - (L-3)

TeeJay

- 1 - ODDin - (L-3)

Players not voting: Sawyer, TeeJay

DL: August 16 @ 7:00 PM EST
Tell me if you see an error.

[podium123456]

What is this? Page 4,millar and I made 1 or 2 relevant posts each and it's become a back and forth between TJ, ODDin and Podium and you're willing to hammer depending on the claim? +scumpoints for you.

I'll be posting more later tonight, but wanted to say this now.

I would add oddin and teejay into this as well (teejay also expressed willingness to hammer, here). As scum, finding out peoples roles during the day is a huge benefit. So the more people you get to L-1, the better. Claims are insanely important information, more so to mafia, than to town. Both oddin and teejay asked me to claim, and i find that really suspicious... as they strike me as players that should know better. i actually consider pressing for claims when it isn't really necessary a pretty strong scumtell. teejay is now giving a different story and agreeing with myself and sawyer... but not sure i believe that he wouldnt have realized that earlier.

i would expect town to have the same reaction as sawyer did, especially after i made note of the players that were on me. and to piggyback on that, sawyers reaction really does look town. if he was scum, he could easily have said that i still looked suspicous, and given the go ahead for someone to hammer. After all, there were 3 people that thought i was scum and 2 had said they wanted to hammer. i dont see scum abandoning that opportunity.

[Sawyer]

I didn't think much of Podiums rehash of the thread, as I didn't see where he was going with it. Maybe I just missed the point entirely.

...

Your response to millar DID seem excessive to me (which is why I considered TeeJay's point a valid one) , because you became very defensive and tried to shift the blame to me. I'm not denying that I was at fault, but it seems like someone who is trying to look for scum would have said something like "What is your opinion of the part that gonnano played in the situation that you voted me for?", whereas your post came off as "Nononono get your vote off me and put it on gonnano, he did it!"

I didn't get that out of his reaction. Looks like you're overreacted now. Sure he he made a point to say you almost killed the game, which looked to be the case to me, but by the end of the post he said millars vote was weak, incorrect and not very well thought out, which is all true. Millars reasoning was horrible and if I were Podium, I would've voted millar as well.

Tunneling... Now that you mentioned it, I'll be honest, I have. The quite hard part is indirectly stating that I was intentionally doing so (you may or may not mean that). This I disagree with, the only reason why I have only gone against him is because, simply put, no one else has done something that in my mind is worth noting.

Well, you (and others) did ask him to claim, so there's a fair chance that it was intentional. I see what you mean when you say he's the only one that's done anything worth noting, but from the look of it, you haven't questioned anyone else (and there has been questionable actions from others).

In my opinion, Day one lynches where it isn't mylo should be used as follows:

-Lynch an unhelpful player-Why have a player that isn't contributing squat stay in the game? If they aren't contributing now, what makes you think they will contribute when it really counts on lylo? If you keep them till lylo, then you will be questioning them with little response, making them look scummy (whether they are or aren't scum).

Therefore

unvote, vote millar

So you're voting to lynch millar because you believe Day One lynches should always be used to eliminate players that aren't being helpful, correct?

[TeeJay]

In my opinion, Day one lynches where it isn't mylo should be used as follows:

-Lynch an unhelpful player-Why have a player that isn't contributing squat stay in the game? If they aren't contributing now, what makes you think they will contribute when it really counts on lylo? If you keep them till lylo, then you will be questioning them with little response, making them look scummy (whether they are or aren't scum).

Therefore

unvote, vote millar

I hardly find that helpful.

I would add oddin and teejay into this as well (teejay also expressed willingness to hammer, here). As scum, finding out peoples roles during the day is a huge benefit. So the more people you get to L-1, the better. Claims are insanely important information, more so to mafia, than to town. Both oddin and teejay asked me to claim, and i find that really suspicious... as they strike me as players that should know better. i actually consider pressing for claims when it isn't really necessary a pretty strong scumtell. teejay is now giving a different story and agreeing with myself and sawyer... but not sure i believe that he wouldnt have realized that earlier.

i would expect town to have the same reaction as sawyer did, especially after i made note of the players that were on me. and to piggyback on that, sawyers reaction really does look town. if he was scum, he could easily have said that i still looked suspicous, and given the go ahead for someone to hammer. After all, there were 3 people that thought i was scum and 2 had said they wanted to hammer. i dont see scum abandoning that opportunity.

I was willing to hammer. I had gotten done reading a heavily heated debate between Oddin and you and was caught up in the excitement of it all. After a few hours of removing myself, I found that it wasn't an intelligent idea because of the fact that you were the only one that had been really evaluated, and because it was only page 4. It was a pathetic action, of which I have no argument other than getting caught up in the action.

Pertaining to getting you to claim, again, this was said in the context of a heated debate, ruled by emotion rather than logic. I had no intent on getting anything for Scum, I was fully intent in lynching on Sunday when I had posted.

This is not to say that I'm no longer suspicious of you, rather, I would like to take a look at others before I make my final decision.

[TeeJay]

I had no intent on getting anything for Scum, I was fully intent in lynching on Sunday when I had posted.

Alright, this doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Here is an edited version:
I wasn't fishing for information. I wanted you to claim because I was fully intent on lynching you come Sunday.

[TeeJay]

Wow, I just reread everything and found something worth noting.

Mallow:

0 post:
Vote the liar, gonnano

2nd post:
unvote, Vote ODDin

3rd post:
unvote
Fos Gonn Just a gut feeling. And I don't wanna waste my lynch on a random vote.

6th post:
Vote ODDin

7th post:
unvote, vote TeeJay

Post 12:
vote podium

Post 13:
unvote, vote millar.


6 votes and 1 FOS in 13 posts. Warranted, one was a typo.

His Reasons?

Voted Oddin for his comment to me about me looking too deeply too early

FOS'ed Gonn for Gut feelings

Voted me because he agreed with Podium made a great case and because I "contradicted myself". To which, he later removed his vote and said that he misunderstood.

Voted Podium because (Now this is the Kicker): "That puts him at L-1. I'd also like to hear from our inactive townies before the hammer." His only analysis on Podium was:

Now that you mention it ODDin, he has been AtEing a lot:

A. It wasn't

ME

that almost killed the game, it was gonnano... for quoting an ongoing game.

B. Gonnano accused me of being scum based on his (incorrect) notion that i was acting differently in this game... i disputed that. And here you are telling me that i am scum for disputing that? Really? What was i supposed to do, just agree with him and lynch myself?

Your vote on me is weak, incorrect, and generally not well thought out. Seems very scummy.

Wow, defensive rather quickly. Considering that this is only the second page, I find it disturbing that you were so quick to become defensive.

??

If someone seriously accuses you of being scum, then what is wrong with defending yourself... regardless of if it's page 1 or 21?

I'm 'disturbed' that you are more concerned with my justified response, than with his seemingly scummy accusations/vote.

Lol I found this one very funny:

Again, i ask you... how was my defense an overreaction? ?? What should i have done?? Agreed with him??

^overreacting when he's trying to say he wasn't overreacting

Overall analysis: Scum

I hardly find that a good analysis.

He also votes for millar because he is 'unhelpful'.

His only content could be found in:

You still didn't say why you're not voting, though.

This to me just seems scummy fmpov. Either you're:
A. trying to divert attention
B. genuinely wanting an explanation

I'm leaning towards the former...

The first quoted post, and his last post.

You have to be kidding me.

vote: mallow

[podium123456]

I didn't think much of Podiums rehash of the thread, as I didn't see where he was going with it. Maybe I just missed the point entirely.

Mostly to give some idea of why i was so flustered... that was a LOT of stuff hitting me from all directions at once. And to show that, while it appeared like everyone in the thread wanted me gone, there were a lot of people that justified the actions i made... they just got lost in the mix.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

I was willing to hammer. I had gotten done reading a heavily heated debate between Oddin and you and was caught up in the excitement of it all.

Pertaining to getting you to claim, again, this was said in the context of a heated debate, ruled by emotion rather than logic.

Ill take this into consideration.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

I would like a response on this:

Now that I reread your post, my thoughts:

Typically, I see people who react the way you did after the about three votes on them, whereas you only had one.

(repeated)

So you are saying that people dont respond to a scum accusation until they have about three votes? Sorry, i dont believe that. As a matter of fact, from my experience, NOT responding to it would result in people accusing the accused of avoiding the issue.

[podium123456]

Right now, my problem players are mallow, millar, and one other that i want to finish up talking with before i say.


Millar - His input/play has been total garbage. Calling him a lurker is an insult to lurkers.

Mallow - Pretty much a perfect example of active lurking, as teejay highlighted. Adds nothing to the discussion, and jumps in to put me at L-1 with a parrot of oddin. His repeated mistakes early on give me the impression he wasn't really reading the thread like he was portraying -- and the thread hadn't gotten crazy at that point.

Also , he made an individual post criticizing millar for not posting enough to be iso'd . that post seemed out of place. sawyer's iso content was nearly identical to millar at this point, but he didnt mention it... odd that he wouldn't. also, it was a little hypocritical considering his own iso was pretty darn weak.

i'm not sure how i feel about his millar vote right now.

[millar13]

VLA till Thursday; got more work that i feel like shooting myself

[ODDin]

Okay then, I see things progressing nicely.

I think we've reaped enough from the podium thing for me to come clean: I wasn't intending to actually lynch you. I started off saying everything honestly, but as it went I, well, exaggerated somewhat for effect, to make it seem more like everybody's ready to lynch you right then and there. (Although in retrospect, asking you to claim might have been a little too much.)

I still keep my eye on you and still think you reacted a bit more harshly than necessary, but not quite as much as I made it look I thought.

But the whole affair wasn't for nothing, there's quite some benefit.

1) I'm pretty sure sawyer is town. He was voting for you and could've gone on with a really easy lynch, but instead chose to unvote and rethink his stance. I really like that.

2) I really don't like how teejay played through this. First he says he's ready to HAMMER, on page 4! But then he sees the wagon is waning and the wind is blowing elsewhere, and suddenly he buckles. Suddenly it's too early to lynch. It really looks like teejay is trying to go with what's popular. He saw that apparently podium was going down - and he was ready to hammer him. But then people are starting to hesitate, sawyer unvotes, and suddenly he remembers it's too early for a lynch and even admits he was tunneling... only to present a backhanded accusation against me in the process. Nice work there.
Then he moves to another easy target - even though now podium only has one vote on him, so if he considered podium so suspicious, why not place a vote there?

Millar and mallow are also playing horribly (or not playing at all), and will need to be removed, though I'd be hoping for replacements, myself. I don't think votes will help here.

So, yeah, my vote is right where it belongs.


P.S. Haven't had the time to look up teejay's older games yet. Will get to it now, I think.

[ODDin]

Hmm, looked up tyler's old games , wasn't quite conclusive. In some games he's more cautious with his votes, in others he's less so (both as town).
But the argument I brought up in the previous post still stands.

[podium123456]

I think we might have found scum.

Oddin, im sorry, but i simply do NOT believe what you are saying. You pushed WAY too hard for WAY too long. There's no way you would have kept going that long if it was really a ploy. Even AFTER things died down... after i explained the reasons why i shouldnt claim, and made my mega play-by-play post... you STILL continued to pressure me. You even made a post out of the blue to reiterate what '???' meant to you link. After i responded to that saying 'uhhh ok for whatever that was for', you AGAIN made your case. Uh-uh... no WAY you would have went that far if you were intentionally riding me.

You asked for a claim... TWICE. Are you kidding? Along with language that insinuated you were ready for the hammer to fall, right at the time where some bozo could have jumped in and hammered link. Townies know how precious claims are... there's NO way i believe a townie would ask me to claim twice if they didn't think i was going to be lynched. This is pretty damning in my eyes, i ask others to mull over this.

I think what happened is that i kept breaking down your case until i had you backed into a corner here. When you realized there was no way you could talk your way out of it, you came up with this fantastic story. If by some miracle you ARE town, then you really screwed yourself with that wild play.

Also, this is pretty funny:

2) I really don't like how teejay played through this. First he says he's ready to HAMMER, on page 4! But then he sees the wagon is waning and the wind is blowing elsewhere, and suddenly he buckles. Suddenly it's too early to lynch. It really looks like teejay is trying to go with what's popular.

You critcize teejay for something you are basically doing... it's just that instead of the excuses he gave, you came up with that crazy story. And dont act like just because you didnt specifically say you would hammer, that you weren't sending out similar signals. L-1 is NOT the time to fuel the fire with language like 'before we hammer'... it's the time to back off and reveal your ploy... which is all part of why i dont believe you.

UNVOTE
VOTE: ODDin

p.s. you were the mystery person i was referring to in my previous post.

[ODDin]

A bozo could have come out to hammer, sure. He'd be lynched the next day. That's why quicklynches on D1 aren't that much of a big deal. (Although I did mention we should be careful, because too quick of a hammer would've lost most of the info anyway)
And basically I kept it going until everyone responded. Specifically, I wanted sawyer's and millar's responses, which only came on page 6 (last thing I said against you was on page 5). I had a specific goal I wanted to reach, I didn't stop until I reached it.

As for the claim, it might have been too much, but you would be wise to notice that I wasn't the first to say ask for it. In my experience, after a claim has been asked for, it doesn't really matter how many more people ask for it - you either agree to claim or you don't. So when I saw gonnano asked for you to claim, I thought that it wouldn't really matter if I asked for it too, so I did, for the sake of credibility.

By the way, I wouldn't say you've really broken my case - I was self-consistent throughout. Specifically in regards to post 125, there is only ONE post in that other discussed game which looks heated, while the rest of the argument on the same issue (why you voted somebody, I think raj) was handled by you in a way which was more or less cooler than how you talked here. This is what I was basing my case on. Whether the difference is quite as strong as I claimed earlier or not is subjective, and there are other reasons why in truth I don't believe the difference is that great, but it was there for me to build a case on.

[ODDin]

P.S.

p.s. you were the mystery person i was referring to in my previous post.

That was pretty obvious.

[ODDin]

P.P.S. Of course I was insinuating I was ready for the hammer to fall and sending similar signals. That was the whole idea.

[podium123456]

And basically I kept it going until everyone responded. Specifically, I wanted sawyer's and millar's responses, which only came on page 6 (last thing I said against you was on page 5). I had a specific goal I wanted to reach, I didn't stop until I reached it.

Surely you understand how this looks from someone elses perspective. It doesn't make sense that if it was a ploy, and things had died down... for you to still continue to press ME...

especially

when we had already been through the wringer. You had already made up your mind on me, and were waiting for sawyer millar (so you say) so why the unprompted post to keep arguing with me about '???'. There would be no need for that if you were only waiting to hear from millar/sawyer. It isn't logical.

As for the claim, it might have been too much, but you would be wise to notice that I wasn't the first to say ask for it. In my experience, after a claim has been asked for, it doesn't really matter how many more people ask for it - you either agree to claim or you don't.

First of all, numbers can influence players. Secondly (back to my main point) if you were town, you would have known that me claiming was the WRONG move for town at the time... even more so since you didn't want me lynched. Town reacts like sawyer did, you did exactly the opposite... twice.

By the way, I wouldn't say you've really broken my case - I was self-consistent throughout. Specifically in regards to post 125, there is only ONE post in that other discussed game which looks heated, while the rest of the argument on the same issue (why you voted somebody, I think raj) was handled by you in a way which was more or less cooler than how you talked here.

See the problem is that you made a big deal about multiple question marks. Not counting that first post, there are at least 4 other places in the thread where i used '??' or '???'. By your own definition that is bordering on hysteria.

But you know, i dont even care... i'm not interested in another oddin vs. podium show on that. I proved how the overall logic was flawed behind your conclusions, but it does no good. I dont expect you to change your tune, and I don't trust you anyway... really never have... so you can save it.

If you were to bring me some explanations that seemed logical/believable, things might be different. But you arent. As i said, if you really are town, you played exactly opposite how they should.

[podium123456]

P.S.

p.s. you were the mystery person i was referring to in my previous post.

That was pretty obvious.

I had questions open to teejay, concerning his play, when i made that comment. Could have been either of you.

P.P.S. Of course I was insinuating I was ready for the hammer to fall and sending similar signals. That was the whole idea.

More fail. If you are town, and dont feel the person at L-1 should be lynched... then you SAY something. You did exactly the opposite. You egged it on... sent out the signal. So what happens... someone holding back sees that other players are calling for the hammer, and they post and hammer.

...oh and maybe you'll rebut with that other top notch argument that you brought up earlier 'we can learn a lot from a quicklynch hammer'. Duh. The problem is that you were willing to let someone you didnt think was scum be lynched, just to see who hammered. Town doesnt do that.

[ODDin]

Surely you understand how this looks from someone elses perspective. It doesn't make sense that if it was a ploy, and things had died down... for you to still continue to press ME...

especially

when we had already been through the wringer. You had already made up your mind on me, and were waiting for sawyer millar (so you say) so why the unprompted post to keep arguing with me about '???'. There would be no need for that if you were only waiting to hear from millar/sawyer. It isn't logical.

I understand how it may look, and I'm not really blaming you for suspecting me. I would too. I'm just explaining my move.
I didn't want the attention to shift from you before sawyer and millar showed up - otherwise it wouldn't have helped anyone. The point was to see how people react to a situation when somebody's about to get lynched so early. That's why I kept posting while I was here - to keep the fire going.

First of all, numbers can influence players. Secondly (back to my main point) if you were town, you would have known that me claiming was the WRONG move for town at the time... even more so since you didn't want me lynched. Town reacts like sawyer did, you did exactly the opposite... twice.

Once again, gonanno has already asked you to claim. Me saying "no, don't claim" would have ruined the whole thing - not even teejay has responded by that point, and so the whole affair would've gained nothing. So my options were to ignore the claim issue altogether or second it. If what you're saying is that I should've discarded that whole effort just to prevent you from claiming - perhaps, but I still think we gained a lot of info that way.

As i said, if you really are town, you played exactly opposite how

they

should.

(Emphasis mine)
Okay, maybe it's just me, but I don't tend to refer to a group I'm a part of with "they"... Ahem...

More fail. If you are town, and dont feel the person at L-1 should be lynched... then you SAY something. You did exactly the opposite. You egged it on... sent out the signal. So what happens... someone holding back sees that other players are calling for the hammer, and they post and hammer.

...oh and maybe you'll rebut with that other top notch argument that you brought up earlier 'we can learn a lot from a quicklynch hammer'. Duh. The problem is that you were willing to let someone you didnt think was scum be lynched, just to see who hammered. Town doesnt do that.

I don't mind you thinking that I lied about the whole ploy thing and invented it in retrospect - I can respect that. But you could at lest try to understand how such a ploy should have worked in theory, in the hipothetical case it was actually there (which is what I'm claiming).
The idea was to bring somebody (in this case, you) to the doorstep of lynching fairly early and see everyone's reaction. There were two things that could have happened:
1) Somebody would've hammered you. In this case, it would almost certainly mean that somebody is scum, and thus we would've traded scum for town. A good deal for town on D1.
2) You wouldn't get lynched at that point, and we'd instead gain some valuable info. Also good. (This is what actually happened)

So first of all, it's not that I didn't think you were scum in the sense that I was (or am) certain you're town - I was (and am) suspicious of you, just not badly enough to lynch you.
Second, town will certainly get somebody lynched just to see who scum is. As I said, it's a usually good deal for town, especially on D1. Even trading a PR for scum is often a good idea, especially in this setup where there are backups.