Vi wrote:*disagreement with the argument that it will make games take longer to fill (it's only one player, seriously, and a game that has a hard time getting to 12 players is already filling slowly anyway)
8,3% longer. If we take 5 days as average now (just for the easy maths), then on average it would take 10 hours more to fill
one
game. That means 2 day's longer for 5 games, etc.
that one player isn't insignificant.
Under the same logic, why not reduce the maximum size of a mini? I mean, there's no real reason that 12 is the limit.
mykonian wrote:and we can't call a 13 player game "mini" tbh.
Why can we call a 12-player game a mini, then? Why is 12.0000001 a bright line? Because we've played hundreds of them this way?
I'm the one arguing for (more) 9-player mini's. They are quick, they are small, they are fun, and right now, they are newby games.
As I've been saying, adding a new queue for 10p and under would be a good idea. We can call it the Micro queue. Because otherwise most mods believe that they have to use the max of 12 or 13.
I think if you wanted that queue, 9p and under is a better limit than ten. I think it's less that people think they 'have to' and more that people like three man scum groups.
If you want a superfast game, just go play in the Open Queue. Most of what they play in there is 5p Vengeful and 6p Lovers and other games that you can be done with in a Day or two.
IMO there's just not time for a lot of role speculation in a 5-9p game. LyLo is so close already that you need to have some idea what you're up against from the beginning, even if it's just "these are the possible roles, no guarantee they're in the game).
That said, I've seen two 9p Mini Themes recently, and Zorblag ran Mini 993 as a 7p. 977 was a 9p. 879 was a 9p. 868 had 11p.
Probably what you're looking at is that most people don't
want
to run a game of less than 12 players after waiting all that time - your best bet is to talk to someone on the Mini Normal modding list and see if they'd be willing to run a smaller game, then /pre-in for that.
Also yeah, I do like smaller games. (As I seem to play better the smaller the game is strangely enough.) C9 and variations of it are a game type I like a lot.
Yeah, the smaller games are in the open que, but not frequently enough in the type of setups I like. (I hate Vengeful, never tried lovers.)
It might be worth having a smaller game que (With Fonz's suggestion of it being 9p and under.) and requiring first time mods to mod these simpler setups before they expand into the somewhat more complicated normal games and themes. That might help both the wait time in the normal que and work as a filter for mods that may not be ready for it to begin with.
Of course, what's important is whether or not there'd be interest, mostly from the player side in games of that size.
the effect of having first-time mods limited to the small queue and having veteran mods doing the fuller games would be to bog down the first-time mod's by a startling degree. I don't think there exists much demand for smaller games, personally, but even if there were, I doubt that would outweigh the number of people who sign up for veteran mods 12 and 13 player games rather than do a new mod's 9 person game. The change in size will not adequately address this.
Anyway, C9 is an open variation. It seems to me that the open queue combined with having mods who can run smaller games if they want in the mini-theme queue is perfectly sufficient.
partly in reaction to this thread, I have a 7 player mini-themed (it isn't too weird, I believe you have to win mafia by scumhunting, not with roles) in the queue. Just a few mods to go and you can /in for mine!
/shameless advertisement.
I fear Flay is right that mods think it is weird to mod a game for less then 12 players. I'm already happy that we talk about it, it should help a little bit.
Surrender, imagine and of course wear something nice.
zoraster wrote:the effect of having first-time mods limited to the small queue and having veteran mods doing the fuller games would be to bog down the first-time mod's by a startling degree. I don't think there exists much demand for smaller games, personally, but even if there were, I doubt that would outweigh the number of people who sign up for veteran mods 12 and 13 player games rather than do a new mod's 9 person game. The change in size will not adequately address this.
Anyway, C9 is an open variation. It seems to me that the open queue combined with having mods who can run smaller games if they want in the mini-theme queue is perfectly sufficient.
C9 (and it's varients.) don't seem to come up in the open setup as often as games like say.
You might be surprised how many people like playing smaller games and have a hard time finding them outside the newbie que. The only way to know whether there's interest is to try it on a trial basis.
Also I suggest it for first time mods because smaller setups are simplier and they are less likely to make mistakes in setup design. Starting small can go a long way toward expanding to bigger games in the long run.
Zachrulez wrote:Also I suggest it for first time mods because smaller setups are simplier and they are less likely to make mistakes in setup design. Starting small can go a long way toward expanding to bigger games in the long run.
@ Vi: Town got lucky Day 1 and the vig was smart, I don't really see a problem with the setup. Fast games aren't always a bad thing .
"It's not a logical inconsistency. B can't be correct because then C would be, but it doesn't go the other way - there's nothing wrong with C being correct. Aside from Twomz saying otherwise." --Mith
Yeah. I don't support a new tiny queue or whatever you want to call it, but I don't think there's an inherent flaw in that game. The expected win rate is still going to be pretty low for town.
Keep in mind that when I said mods should have experience before modding mini normals (much like they do for themes) that I said nothing about not allowing first time mods to continue to mod open games.
Zachrulez wrote:It might be worth having a smaller game que (With Fonz's suggestion of it being 9p and under.) and requiring first time mods to mod these simpler setups before they expand into the somewhat more complicated normal games and themes. That might help both the wait time in the normal que and work as a filter for mods that may not be ready for it to begin with.
nonononono! The smaller queue should have the exact same requirements as the mini queue. Forcing all new mods into this smaller queue would screw everything up worse than it is. The new mods should be given the choice of this "Micro" queue or the Mini queue. The whole point is to encourage people to mod smaller games but NOT
Not sure how that's a point, as at one point first time mods were forced to mod minis. (And then the open que came to pass giving the mods a choice.)
Theme games require experience, with an open que and another que for smaller, simpler games, why exactly would it not be a good idea to require modding experience for normal games? You say it would screw everything up... but don't give reasons why. (The site's already tightening the noose around the once greater freedom enjoyed by normal mods anyway.)
Zoraster brought up a concern that could be legitimate but unclear, overall interest. So it might be worth running something as a trial for a short time to see what kind of interest or lack of interest there might be. (Given the number of experienced players that play in or replace into newbie games, I'm not sold that there would be a lack of interest.)
I don't understand what you're getting at, Zach. Minis are by far the most popular game-type on the site... shifting the 'new mods' from Mini Normal to Micro Normal Closed (or whatever) isn't likely to help with demand, since this is literally the first time I've seen an outcry for smaller games since I joined the site. It'll help slightly with Thok's Law, but I'm not at all sure that will overcome the increase in complexity and fracturing of demand. How will limits work with Micros? Could you be in 4 Minis and 7 Micros? Etc... like I said, you
can
run smaller games in the Mini Queues right now, they're just uncommon. I think that should tell us something about demand, especially from the mod side. The Open Queue (Zito's recent game aside, sorry dude) seems to handle that "I want to get through as fast as possible" side, and Mini Normal is for those who want to run their own game, within limits.
Mr. Flay wrote:I don't understand what you're getting at, Zach. Minis are by far the most popular game-type on the site... shifting the 'new mods' from Mini Normal to Micro Normal Closed (or whatever) isn't likely to help with demand, since this is literally the first time I've seen an outcry for smaller games since I joined the site. It'll help slightly with Thok's Law, but I'm not at all sure that will overcome the increase in complexity and fracturing of demand. How will limits work with Micros? Could you be in 4 Minis and 7 Micros? Etc... like I said, you
can
run smaller games in the Mini Queues right now, they're just uncommon. I think that should tell us something about demand, especially from the mod side. The Open Queue (Zito's recent game aside, sorry dude) seems to handle that "I want to get through as fast as possible" side, and Mini Normal is for those who want to run their own game, within limits.
I agree with this, but I think the idea that the open queue is faster is probably either exaggerated or not true. I didn't do a full analysis like i did with the others, but I did look at a couple of mods and the typical wait time was 5 months from "/in as mod" to "game full"
It seems totally unnecessary to (a) create a separate queue and (b) to change mod requirements so new mods can no longer mod mini-normals. I suspect it'll have the effect of making it even harder for new mods to get that game under their belt.
Open Queue used to be much shorter than Mini Normal - it's evened out in the last 6 months or so, and possibly even gotten slower.
As a totally non-scientific sample, Jahudo /inned to mod an Open on November 2nd, 2008 and he was put into rotation on February 4th, 2009. hohum /inned on February 7th, 2009 and got the game on April 24th, 2009. I don't have time to go through the whole queue backlog now...
."It's not a logical inconsistency. B can't be correct because then C would be, but it doesn't go the other way - there's nothing wrong with C being correct. Aside from Twomz saying otherwise." --Mith