Change the Mini Normal limit from 12 to 13.

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Change the Mini Normal limit from 12 to 13.

Post Post #0 (ISO) » Wed Jul 14, 2010 2:06 am

Post by Hoopla »

In the interest of developing the game of mafia, we need to be creating fair and balanced games for all factions - I don't think anyone will debate this point. From the humble beginnings of this forum, where the large possibilities of mafia were just starting to be explored, the game has slowly evolved to it's present form. Games that were once over in half a dozen pages in two weeks, now generate upwards of 1,000 posts, can last months and use an amazingly extensive catalogue of roles, modifiers and rules. Never before have we been investing so much time and effort into mafia games, and I think the quality of our games will continue to grow as the site gets larger.

One thing that is stunting this growth and creating balance problems for mods, is the awkwardly restrictive cap of 12 players in Mini Normals. To the casual Mini Normal player, it is forgivable to gloss over the concept of a possibly unbalanced game for your faction. Likewise for Mini Normal mods, how balanced your set-up truly is, is a difficult question to answer and most won't understand or forsee the subtle intricacies of certain role interactions and the amount of power needed to offset scum in a 12-player game. And for the most part, it is not their fault, as their knowledge of set-up design (likewise for reviewers), is based on a small sample of similar games they have played in or read. They soak up a small pocket of (usually recent) games to solidify their understanding of balance, and will produce games based on this ideology.

Obviously, the more experience playing and modding games, the more chance you have of producing a balanced set-up (coupled with the more experience your reviewers have). But because of our current queue system, the overwhelming majority of Mini Normal mods are first-time mods, which makes the cycle of unbalanced games hard to snap, if these newer players are largely emulating what they see in games run by first-time mods. A mandatory review committee (something hopefully happening soon) will go some way to improving the quality of Mini Normal set-ups we produce, but I think it will only be useful to a certain point; correcting wildly unbalanced games, providing support for confused newer mods and a gradual shift towards greater standardization of roles. My possibly controversial stance is the majority of Mini Normal games will still be unbalanced under the umbrella of 12 player set-ups, even with a slew of competant reviewers behind each game.

The problem with balancing games, is you can only account for what you think is wrong. If you see no problem overall, you cannot fix it. And I think the main problem is the lack of players acknowledging or even realising there is a problem, because the problem itself can only be spotted when you view the overall picture, rather than a handful of games. Here is the up-to-date win/loss statistics for closed 3:9 Mini Normal games;

152 Closed 3:9 Games completed

96 Mafia Wins
(63.2%)
54 Town Wins
(35.5%)
2 Draws
(1.3%)


This is considerably disturbing when you take into account, this is the most common 12 player set-up (by some way), and is the most biased toward scum. We are obviously doing something wrong here, and I will talk about my proposed solution in a minute, but I have some more numbers to show you first. Check out the last 50 completed 3:9 games;

Last 50 Closed 3:9 Games completed:

38 Mafia Wins
(76%)
11 Town Wins
(22%)
1 Draw
(2%)


Something equally is alarming is how comprehensively mafia is winning some of these games. Looking at those last 38 mafia wins, have a look how many scum the town actually manages to eliminate:

Last 38 Closed 3:9 Games won by Mafia:

14 Scum sweep games (0 scum lynches)
15 One scum lynch games (1 scum lynched)
9 Two scum lynch games (2 scum lynched)


Finally, of the last 50 completed Mini Normals of ANY TYPE, 3:9's have been run in 60% of those, which runs contrary to the overall make-up of 3:9's in Mini Normals, of about 45%. This shows the trend is slowly moving toward 3:9's as the default Mini Normal set-up, which is very scary when you see how easily and how often scum has been demolishing towns.




The main questions we need to ask ourselves is why is this happening, and what can we do to change this? Both these questions are very important as the change can't be made without accurately theorising and understand the why. Here are my positions;

The main awkwardness stems from the initial question of how many scum to put into a 12 player game. Two is too few for a 12 player game, unless you are running something close to mountainous, and three is too many without pumping the town with swingy powerroles to offset this extra scum. I think the biggest misconception is how difficult it actually is to lynch three scum, when the town only has three mislynches up it's sleeve. In a sense, it is almost a race of
'first to three mislynches/lynches'
for scum and town, and when you consider the Day 1 lynch usually hovers at about 20% for hitting scum, there is a strong chance the town will fall behind early and need to lynch at a 60% rate or higher for the rest of the game - something that relies very much on information generated from powerroles.

This is the main problem, as I see it - the low rate of scum lynches Day 1, which puts town behind early in a contest where teams are striving for the same goal (number of lynches/mislynches-wise). Whilst Day 1's are largely believed to be about generating information to improve lynch odds on future days, you now also have a higher ratio of scum to townies in the game, which in a sense, offsets some of the advantage town gains over scum - more information. And I have serious doubts that many towns can scumhunt at a 60% success rate without serious help from PR's.

Of course, with an even number of players starting the game, the amount of mislynches needed for scum
can
be increased with an accurate vig shot, or a blocking of a scum NK. If this does not happen, then no-lynch will likely have to take place at some point to minimise the pool of lynch candidates. If towns manage to catch this break - this gaining of an extra mislynch by way of a lucky PR, it evens the game much more, dropping the needed lynch rate back towards 50% or a little lower. But rather than towns trying to catch this break, or relying on an early scum lynch, wouldn't a more organic solution be to just add an extra townie?

An extra number from the beginning now changes the dynamics to four mislynches needed versus three scum lynches. It also serves to eliminate some swing, as a blocked scum kill at night won't give an extra mislynch to town, but will merely require it to no-lynch at some point. 13 player set-ups also have benefits beyond the realm of 3:9's too, as 3:1:8's need an extra townie for balance, as town wins rely on cross-kills. It also enables 2:2:9 set-ups, which are a far more attractive option than 2:2:8, as worst case scenarios can see towns lose after N2. An extra townie still keeps towns in it.

The only thing 12 player games have in their favour is familiarity, and the only reason 12 became the magic number, is because this is how many players the very first game used. It is has served it's use long enough, but it is completely arbitrary, and if we seriously want to improve the quality of games (namely balance), we need to rethink this structure, because it is naturally impeding balance of our most common set-ups (outside newbie games). Of course, thoughtful and creative mods can overcome the obstacles of the number 12, but it is very difficult to do right. Rather than individually nitpicking and focusing on each 12-player set-up, knowing it is a tricky number to work with, ticking up to 13 players means that the set-ups that don't come under as much scrutiny as this will still have a good chance of being balanced.

With the soon-to-be introduction of mandatory reviews for normal games, this to me feels like the perfect opportunity to review the base number of players mods build their set-ups around and introduce something new, that will go a long way to producing fairer games. If you've read this far, thank you! I hope I've been convincing, because this is something that should be talked about again.
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Post Post #1 (ISO) » Wed Jul 14, 2010 2:17 am

Post by Faraday »

I think I agree. I found the 12 limit on players to be somewhat restrictive. I mean I think if I was doing another game, and wanted it small I'd make a Large Normal with 13 players instead of going to the mini queue, but obviously for first time mods this isn't an option.

I don't really have a whole lot to say, as I agree with most of what you've said. I'd probably never put a SK in a 12 player game, as I don't like 3:1:8/2:1:9 as set-ups for varying reasons. I think the extra player does give mods am lot more freedom, an extra vanilla could do a lot in most set-ups.

or to summarise : I agree with Hoopla.
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Post Post #2 (ISO) » Wed Jul 14, 2010 2:22 am

Post by Mr. Flay »

Seems reasonable to me.
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Post Post #3 (ISO) » Wed Jul 14, 2010 2:28 am

Post by Netopalis »

A very compelling argument, I must say. I am a bit concerned, though, about the speed of the queue. It's slow to fill up as it is. I also think that part of the problem is the even number of players, which is never ideal in a setup. Perhaps we should experiment with some 11 or 9 player games (8-1-2, 9-2 or 7-2) and see what happens?
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Post Post #4 (ISO) » Wed Jul 14, 2010 2:32 am

Post by Haylen »

I like the idea. Mainly cause I hate modding games that begin with an even amount of players >.<
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Post Post #5 (ISO) » Wed Jul 14, 2010 2:44 am

Post by Zachrulez »

The main problem is people seem to want to mod as large of a game as possible.

Setups with less than 12 players in the normal que are rare. I even saw a post not that long ago made under the assumption that all normals HAVE to be 12 players. It might be worth emphasizing that mini normals can have any number of players up to 12. (Or whatever the new limit may be.)
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Post Post #6 (ISO) » Wed Jul 14, 2010 2:45 am

Post by Netopalis »

Zachrulez wrote:The main problem is people seem to want to mod as large of a game as possible.

Setups with less than 12 players in the normal que are rare. I even saw a post not that long ago made under the assumption that all normals HAVE to be 12 players. It might be worth emphasizing that mini normals can have any number of players up to 12. (Or whatever the new limit may be.)
This is stated several times on the site, but rarely followed...
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Post Post #7 (ISO) » Wed Jul 14, 2010 2:46 am

Post by Zachrulez »

Also it might be worth mentioning that the last normal I modded was 2:2:8 and the last normal I played was a 2:10. So I actually haven't seen 3:9 in a while.
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Post Post #8 (ISO) » Wed Jul 14, 2010 2:46 am

Post by Leafsnail »

9:3 is 2 mislynches allowed, if no NKs are blocked. 2 mislynches allowed and 3 scum lynches required definately does seem wrong unless town has quite a bit of power...

13, on the other hand, allows you to make the number of mislynches allowed and the number of scum equal, which is cool.

You don't have less, because... well, 11 is a horrible number to balance (2 is too few, 3 is too many), and 9 and 10 remind people of "newbie" games.
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Post Post #9 (ISO) » Wed Jul 14, 2010 2:47 am

Post by Zachrulez »

Netopalis wrote:
Zachrulez wrote:The main problem is people seem to want to mod as large of a game as possible.

Setups with less than 12 players in the normal que are rare. I even saw a post not that long ago made under the assumption that all normals HAVE to be 12 players. It might be worth emphasizing that mini normals can have any number of players up to 12. (Or whatever the new limit may be.)
This is stated several times on the site, but rarely followed...
I know, and I'm aware of it, but it seems that there's a perception that all mini normals have to be 12 players.
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Post Post #10 (ISO) » Wed Jul 14, 2010 2:49 am

Post by Hoopla »

Faraday wrote:I'd probably never put a SK in a 12 player game, as I don't like 3:1:8/2:1:9 as set-ups for varying reasons. I think the extra player does give mods am lot more freedom, an extra vanilla could do a lot in most set-ups.
Nor would I. 3:1:8's are very heavily reliant on a cross-kill happening, because if the scum miss each other N1, or if the SK is dies before N2 without a mafia down, town has an uphill battle worse than what 3:9 is. When you look at the possible set-ups for 12 players and compare them to what they could be like with 13, it is mostly an improvement;

3:9 --> 3:10 -
Enhancement

This was the main set-up I was talking about in my post, because it is slowly becoming the default set-up of Mini Normals. One more townie is an obvious enhancement here.

3:1:8 --> 3:1:9 -
Enhancement

As I said just then, cross-kill reliance is not something to promote in set-ups - that extra townie eliminates
some
of that swing.

2:10 --> 2:11 -
Enhancement

Town only has a 20% win rate in these games, so the extra mislynch would be handy, although the consideration of this set-up should be minimal, because 2:10 mountainous games certainly haven't been in vogue for a long time.

2:2:8 --> 2:2:9 -
Enhancement

I covered this briefly, but the worst case scenario being pushed out an extra day is vital to make this set-up playable.

2:1:9 --> 2:1:10 -
Worse

This is the only loss for the 13 player set-up, though nobody is forcing mods to stick to 13 players. It's debatable whether 2:1:9's are worth persisting with, as they inherently favour towns;

2:1:9 Mini Normals where 3rd Party = SK (30 Games)

6 Mafia Wins

19 Town Wins

5 SK Wins


Two Mafia/One SK set-ups are probably more suited to 2:1:7's or 2:1:8's, I feel.
Netopalis wrote:A very compelling argument, I must say. I am a bit concerned, though, about the speed of the queue. It's slow to fill up as it is. I also think that part of the problem is the even number of players, which is never ideal in a setup. Perhaps we should experiment with some 11 or 9 player games (8-1-2, 9-2 or 7-2) and see what happens?
I agree, even numbers aren't so good. But if you drop down 1 or 3, the possibility of 3-scum games goes out the window, which I think is too important to lose. As for the speed of the queue, that might also be a downfall, but this can be solved by more emphasis on quicker deadlines or even bankable deadlines. It's not so elegant and requires a collective shift in conciousness, but I'd take a temporary hit in queue wait times if we can make fairer games overall.
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Post Post #11 (ISO) » Wed Jul 14, 2010 2:50 am

Post by Zachrulez »

Further, I wouldn't mind the limit being raised to 13, except for the fact that every normal game crafted past that point would probably be 13 players. If that's going to be what's going to happen, and the que is just going to slow down even more, what's the point?
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Post Post #12 (ISO) » Wed Jul 14, 2010 2:51 am

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Leafsnail wrote:9:3 is 2 mislynches allowed, if no NKs are blocked. 2 mislynches allowed and 3 scum lynches required definately does seem wrong unless town has quite a bit of power...
It's three/three. You're only thinking about it from a town perspective.

Three mislynches and the town loses. Three scum lynches and the scum lose. You don't get two strikes in baseball if the third one means you're out.
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Post Post #13 (ISO) » Wed Jul 14, 2010 2:53 am

Post by Ectomancer »

To be fair, I've gotten more than my fair share of scum roles, so those win numbers for scum are skewed somewhat :mrgreen:
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Post Post #14 (ISO) » Wed Jul 14, 2010 2:55 am

Post by Mr. Flay »

Zachrulez wrote:Further, I wouldn't mind the limit being raised to 13, except for the fact that every normal game crafted past that point would probably be 13 players. If that's going to be what's going to happen, and the que is just going to slow down even more, what's the point?
It's just not going to slow down THAT much - people are acting like we're doubling the size or something. 1 more player is approximately an 8% increase in size...

If it'll create a more balanced 'default' setup and a little more variety in playable setups, I think that's worth it. Hoopla's done some good legwork to show why 3:9 is pretty harsh on Towns.
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Post Post #15 (ISO) » Wed Jul 14, 2010 3:02 am

Post by Max »

3:9 was only used originally because 2:10 is boring. Yes... that's genuinely the reason
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Post Post #16 (ISO) » Wed Jul 14, 2010 3:07 am

Post by Zachrulez »

Mr. Flay wrote:
Zachrulez wrote:Further, I wouldn't mind the limit being raised to 13, except for the fact that every normal game crafted past that point would probably be 13 players. If that's going to be what's going to happen, and the que is just going to slow down even more, what's the point?
It's just not going to slow down THAT much - people are acting like we're doubling the size or something. 1 more player is approximately an 8% increase in size...

If it'll create a more balanced 'default' setup and a little more variety in playable setups, I think that's worth it. Hoopla's done some good legwork to show why 3:9 is pretty harsh on Towns.
That 8% increase will account for over 30 more players of waiting for mods near the bottom of the que. 1 more player a game may not seem like much, but I think consideration needs to be taken for the rate at which people sign up for games and how long it actually takes for games to fill. (And how much time has actually passed since the last person who actually inned to the next normal game. Currently the last mini normal in is me from yesterday afternoon and the current normal game has been in sign ups since the 6th.)
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Post Post #17 (ISO) » Wed Jul 14, 2010 3:12 am

Post by Mr. Flay »

30 players out of ~390. Stop misrepresenting things.

Average fill time for Mini Normals has been calculated, it's about
a week
5 days. Summers always slow down a bit.
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Post Post #18 (ISO) » Wed Jul 14, 2010 3:17 am

Post by Zachrulez »

Mr. Flay wrote:30 players out of ~390. Stop misrepresenting things.

Average fill time for Mini Normals has been calculated, it's about a week. Summers always slow down a bit.
It's still a sizable number, and does demonstrate that even a small increase could have a sizable effect. (I would actually expect a larger increase in waiting mods.)

A better counterargument for it would be the idea that said limit will increase the interest in normal games offsetting that, but I'm not confident that will actually happen.
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Post Post #19 (ISO) » Wed Jul 14, 2010 3:20 am

Post by Zachrulez »

If you're going to do this change though, I would do it for the mini theme que too.
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Post Post #20 (ISO) » Wed Jul 14, 2010 3:21 am

Post by Mr. Flay »

Absolutely.

Oh, and I was wrong, calculated recent average to fill a Mini Normal (by Vi) was 5 days, not a week. I suspect the current mod is either suffering from a greater-than-usual lack of name recognition, or summer doldrums.
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Post Post #21 (ISO) » Wed Jul 14, 2010 3:29 am

Post by Zachrulez »

Mr. Flay wrote:Absolutely.

Oh, and I was wrong, calculated recent average to fill a Mini Normal (by Vi) was 5 days, not a week.
It's probably more than that now. Anyway, if I use the one week figure, I believe (I'm doing this offhand.) that it will translate to an additional month of waiting time for moderators at least. (That will arguably vary based on time of year, as games are filling slower not but faster at other times.)

Keep in mind that even though it's 2-3 games worth of extra players, you also have to work your way through the additional mods as well.

I only bring this up cause I think it took about 4
(EDIT: 5 and a half months)
months to reach the top of the que the last time I inned to mod a normal.
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Post Post #22 (ISO) » Wed Jul 14, 2010 3:40 am

Post by Zachrulez »

I'm probably not entirely unbiased in this though, as I had been planning a 13 player large game of some kind, which is likely to turn into a mini normal with this change. The idea of waiting that amount of time to mod said game makes bad words come out of my mouth.
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Post Post #23 (ISO) » Wed Jul 14, 2010 3:42 am

Post by Mr. Flay »

Aha, now we come to the crux of the matter. :)

I figured we could either leave 13 as an 'overlap' zone, or just grandfather in anybody already in the Large Queues.
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Post Post #24 (ISO) » Wed Jul 14, 2010 3:45 am

Post by Max »

Add a townie. Then make it so the mafia have to kill that townie N0. Problem solved :) ;)
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